SF now the largest political party in the north.

Winty

dlofnep wrote: »

The UUP didn't get a single seat in the elections. They are counter-productive to peace, and are irrelevant at present. The SDLP will be soon joining them as they continue to slip.

Yes both the UUP and the SDLP are in a bad spot at the minute, but I live in hope that things will get better.

I dont see how Sinn Fein/IRA and the DUP/No Surrender can help N. Ireland stand on its own two feet.
The British and Irish governments no longer have the cash available to support the North, We need people who can work together to bring the ecomomy forward.

A Dub in Glasgo

owenc wrote: »

That's because the people of northern Ireland are just voting over religion!!! They need new parties or bring in uk parties and dump them ones to stop that whole religion **** I mean for god sake get over it!!!

You seem to have this magical insight into the voting habits of 673,000 people, are you even old enough to vote?

Winty

dlofnep wrote: »

I assure you, religion has nothing to do with it).

Hold on one second dlofnep, are you sure of this

Example Please

owenc

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

You seem to have this magical insight into the voting habits of 673,000 people, are you even old enough to vote?

I know fine bloody well why people are voting for those parties... You hear people chatting.. You just know!!Why do you think Protestant areas havedup and catholic areas sf... Loook at my county Derry is catholic and they have sdlp and limavady coleraine etcis Protestant and they have dup.. That totally gives it away and that's proof!

ardmacha

The UUP link with the Tories was a serious cul-de-sac. Integrationism is a thing of the past. Devolution will be where it is at for the remaining years of Northern Ireland's participation in the Union.

dlofnep

Winty wrote: »

I dont see how Sinn Fein/IRA and the DUP/No Surrender can help N. Ireland stand on its own two feet.

What policies do you see that the SDLP and UUP have that would better it?

Winty wrote: »

The British and Irish governments no longer have the cash available to support the North, We need people who can work together to bring the ecomomy forward.

And that is what Sinn Féin wishes to do with more devolved power. They wish to take the north away from it's dependence on the public sector, by drastically reducing corp tax - which would enable local businesses to get up off the ground, and entice foreign business to the area - this will create jobs and help the north become self-sustainable. That will never happen under control from Westminster because they don't have the incentive to make radical changes that will transform the landscape of the north. The north's economy is dependent because Britain allowed it to be.

dlofnep

Winty wrote: »

Hold on one second dlofnep, are you sure of this

Example Please

I'm 100% certain of it. Religion has nothing to do with it. It's political indifference, not religious differences. One side aspires for unification with the rest of Ireland, while the other aspires to remain in the Union. Religion is just a convenient way to organize the two sides, but it is not the raison d'être.

barrygruff

TommyT wrote: »

Like they did last tiime?
Politics in the South are slightly different to the North. The North is just a sectarian headcount, as witnessed in Fermanagh, South Tyrone. What policies did anyone standing in the North have? What were they going to do to bring jobs during the economic downturn? etc etc etc? The North is simply an Orange and Green scrap and that is why Sinn Fein and the DUP are doing so well.
Anything else is just bull****.

I agree, if they want to be taken serious as a political party in the 26 counties they'd need to have an economic plan/proposal to put to the people if somehow they got into government. Stimulus packages don't constitute to an economic plan or programme for recovery.

The way it's going they will get squezed by Labour big time in a general election.

Winty

dlofnep wrote: »

I'm 100% certain of it. Religion has nothing to do with it. It's political indifference, not religious differences. One side aspires for unification with the rest of Ireland, while the other aspires to remain in the Union. Religion is just a convenient way to organize the two sides, but it is not the raison d'être.

That is a great bit of spin, anyone like me from the North understands the truth to be somewhat different. People like me and you may vote with understanding and reason but far more vote along the line of the community that they feel closer to.

Most people dont go to the trouble of trying to understand what party lines and agends best suit them, they just vote they way they think they should

owenc

Winty wrote: »

That is a great bit of spin, anyone like me from the North understands the truth to be somewhat different. People like me and you may vote with understanding and reason but far more vote along the line of the community that they feel closer to.

Most people dont go to the trouble of trying to understand what party lines and agends best suit them, they just vote they way they thing they should

See didn't I tell them... What's your opinion of things??

A Dub in Glasgo

A Dub in Glasgo wrote: »

Should have stayed the course then you would have seen post 258

I was including the lib dems in the pot aswell.Quite do-able if more shakey than the Tory-Lib Dem option.
Anyway it's not your figures I have to keep up with,it's...They seem or rather Clegg seems to have had a row[on the phone last night] in the meantime with Brown so the momentum appears to be running to be heading Tory - Lib Dem.

I think if PC and the SNP can have no hang up's about sitting in the Commons,SF shouldn't if they got an amended oath there.
It's just another debating chamber but with the crucial difference of being a decision making one.

dkin

dlofnep wrote: »

And that is what Sinn Féin wishes to do with more devolved power. They wish to take the north away from it's dependence on the public sector, by drastically reducing corp tax - which would enable local businesses to get up off the ground, and entice foreign business to the area - this will create jobs and help the north become self-sustainable. That will never happen under control from Westminster because they don't have the incentive to make radical changes that will transform the landscape of the north. The north's economy is dependent because Britain allowed it to be.

No the Northern Economy is dependent mainly because of the troubles and the associated undesirable business climate. The North was once a great industrial area that was destroyed by bigots and petty religious strife. I've just had a quick glance at the Sein Fein Economy policies. It is populist rhetoric of the worst order.
Primary actions

1) Tax the rich
2) Spend loads on all the services people desire
3) Fix the banking system
4) Save/create jobs
5) Remove partition

It appears to be written by someone semi illiterate with a very basic grasp of economic policy. There are effectively no details or detailed plans. It lists out many of our ills and says trust us we'll make the difference. Blind faith is required I guess.

I don't see any mention of reducing corporation tax or creating a favourable business environment nor do I see mention of reducing the dependence on the public sector since Sein Fein are a socialist party they would want more people involved in the public sector not less.

For a country that is so desperate to become independent of the UK the first thing you want to do is become dependent on foreign business (foreign investment) and it is these people who really run the world not antiquated governments and artificial national boundaries. What kind of foreign investment do you expect to get? You're too expensive for manual labour and you're planning on taxing everyone who earns a good wage, not exactly conducive to foreign investment.

The North costs Westminster billions of pounds every year to support. Of course they have an incentive to change things up there.

I have to seriously question the sanity of people who wish to join the Irish Republic, this country has been in a state of permanent failure for the last 60 years.
The culture that you so vigorously support is in reality the culture of a previous time and has very little relevance to modern times. The culture of no developed country around the world can really be compared with its culture in the 19th century. What differences do you expect? If anything Ireland is becoming culturally more and more like mainland Britain every year.

A United Ireland would have very little time for the likes of Sein Fein and their hopelessly antiquated ideology as can be seen every year when you enter into Irish elections. It would make very little difference to the daily life of most nationalists, except you wouldn't have British support and can expect a very cold reception from Dublin when you call looking for money.

Thankfully Ireland is now somewhat progressive and we are becoming more liberal. I can only imagine the fear of a fairly liberal, educated Unionist looking down from the North at what was effectively a peasant land kept in ignorance and fear by an all powerful Catholic church, where most scientific, liberal and progressive thinking was actively discouraged and suppressed. Books banned and films censored. Ireland had such a head start in the Scientific world and now it is so sad to see what it became, a backwater locked in petty tribal politics and abandoned by its brightest.

We were always too small, ignorant and insular to really survive after our independence and we would have been far better off staying in the UK remember we were living in a democracy back then with over 100 democratically elected Irish MPs in Westminster, so to compare it to south african apartheid as has been done is laughable really and just shows how deep the propaganda goes. Of course our leaders quickly realised this and went running to the EU post haste after having a pretty torrid time.

Spiritoftheseventies

What I would be more curious is about the SDLP vote overall. If you have two parties that are pretty much fairly part in their thinking, a third party that is more central is always a good thing.

TommyT

Just looking at some facts and figures on the bbc website. bbc.co.uk/politics
Sinn Fein are the sixth biggest party in Great Britain in terms of seats won. Well done to all concerned.

dlofnep

TommyT wrote: »

Just looking at some facts and figures on the bbc website. bbc.co.uk/politics
Sinn Fein are the sixth biggest party in Great Britain in terms of seats won. Well done to all concerned.

Sinn Féin does not run in Great Britain (An Island consisting of Wales, Scotland and England). Your geography doesn't serve you well, my good man.

snow ghost

Deleted User wrote: »

I think if PC and the SNP can have no hang up's about sitting in the Commons,SF shouldn't if they got an amended oath there.
It's just another debating chamber but with the crucial difference of being a decision making one.

Black Briar, why would an Irish Republican party - thats whole ethos is based on endng British rule in Ireland - sit in a parliament in London? Especially, as their voters - the largest number of the N.I. electorate know that they wont take their seats when they vote for them, and partially because of this?

If that's good enough for the people who vote for them, I don't see the issue. If anyone here voted for them and thinks they should sit at Westminster I would be able to see the point, but it appears not.

Bertie Ahern TD doesn't have to spend anytime in the Dail given the rule on ex-taoiseachs not havng to and he still gets paid. Apparently he is only there 30% of the time.

TommyT

dlofnep wrote: »

Sinn Féin does not run in Great Britain (An Island consisting of Wales, Scotland and England). Your geography doesn't serve you well, my good man.

Was the election not to the British Parliament a Westminster? Arent the prods fond of reminding us that Ulster is British?

Spiritoftheseventies

TommyT wrote: »

Just looking at some facts and figures on the bbc website. bbc.co.uk/politics
Sinn Fein are the sixth biggest party in Great Britain in terms of seats won. Well done to all concerned.

So how many empty seats will there be when parliament reconvenes?

dlofnep

dkin wrote: »

No the Northern Economy is dependent mainly because of the troubles and the associated undesirable business climate.

Of course it's attributed in part to the troubles - but there is no incentive for companies to come in and invest into the north, as the corp tax is too high. Sinn Féin do not at present have the ability to change this, but it is their policy to do so. So their economy is dependent in most part on the public sector, which is not sustainable.

dkin wrote: »

1) Tax the rich
2) Spend loads on all the services people desire
3) Fix the banking system
4) Save/create jobs
5) Remove partition

It appears to be written by someone semi illiterate with a very basic grasp of economic policy. There are effectively no details or detailed plans. It effectively lists out many of our ills and says trust us we'll make the difference. Blind faith is required I guess.

They have a very detailed policy - but many of which they cannot implement because they do not possess the power to do so.

dkin wrote: »

I don't see any mention of reducing corportation tax or creating a favourable business environment nor do I see mention of reducing the dependence on the public sector since Sein Fein are a socialist party they would want more people involved in the public sector not less.

Perhaps you didn't look hard enough? Harmonising tax at 12.5% across the island is a crystal clear Sinn Féin policy.

dkin wrote: »

For a country that is so desperate to become independent of the UK the first thing you want to do is become dependent on foreign business (foreign investment) and it is these people who really run the world not antiquated governments and artifical national boundaries. What kind of foreign investment do you expect to get? You're too expensive for manual labour and you're planning on taxing everyone who earns a good wage, not exactly conducive to foreign investment.

Actually - they are looking to encourage more local business, with tax breaks for people to setup business. While I don't advocate that a state's entire infrastructure become reliant on foreign investment - it is certainly required in moderation for employment. You can't have it both ways.

dkin wrote: »

The North costs Westminster billions of pounds every year to support. Of course they have an incentive to change things up there.

But yet, there has been nothing implemented to change the dependency on public sector employment from them. They've only had a few decades to do so. Go figure.

dlofnep

TommyT wrote: »

Was the election not to the British Parliament a Westminster? Arent the prods fond of reminding us that Ulster is British?

I don't think they'd appreciate being referred to as "the prods".

Great Britain is an island. Not a political entity.

snow ghost

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think they'd appreciate being referred to as "the prods".

Great Britain is an island. Not a political entity.

dlofnep,

To be fair I think we all got the drift of what the poster meant when he said 'Great Britain' - such terms are often used interchangeably not literally in a geographic sense.

But yes Great Britain is an island and doesn't include the North.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think they'd appreciate being referred to as "the prods".

Great Britain is an island. Not a political entity.

Tell that to team GB.

Bottle_of_Smoke

dlofnep wrote: »

Perhaps you didn't look hard enough? Harmonising tax at 12.5% across the island is a crystal clear Sinn Féin policy.

Wonder if they'll really push this. Would likely be the complete end of them in the 26 counties.

Annasopra

dlofnep wrote: »

With the recent win by Gildernew, it takes SF's % to 25.5% (171,942 votes), with the DUP trailing marginly at 25.0% (168,216 votes). the SDLP came in third with 16.5% (110,970).

This is a great day for Sinn Féin. All the hard work put in has paid off.

Those party figures mean nothing because don't take account of the unity unionist candidate in Fermanagh/South Tyrone

dlofnep

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Those party figures mean nothing because don't take account of the unity unionist candidate in Fermanagh/South Tyrone

Which despite the huge unionist pact, they still lost F/ST.

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

Which despite the huge unionist pact, they still lost F/ST.

By four votes.:rolleyes:

owenc

TommyT wrote: »

Was the election not to the British Parliament a Westminster? Arent the prods fond of reminding us that Ulster is British?

Yes northern ireland is ruled by people from the uk as it is part of the uk therefor making it british, my passport proves it too.

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

I don't think they'd appreciate being referred to as "the prods".

Great Britain is an island. Not a political entity.

Get over yourself people in northern ireland can call themselves british if they want, they are descended from scotland and england so have the right to use this. Every-time someone mentions the word britain you all have a fit trying to say people in northern ireland aren't British, well they are and have the choice of being both irish or british so get over it!!!!

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

By four votes.:rolleyes:

He lost, despite having support from multiple unionist parties. Gildernew had no pact - she won on her own merits, without needing support from other parties. Deal with it.

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

Get over yourself people in northern ireland can call themselves british if they want, they are descended from scotland and england so have the right to use this. Every-time someone mentions the word britain you all have a fit trying to say people in northern ireland aren't British, well they are and have the choice of being both irish or british so get over it!!!!

I see reading comprehension isn't your strong point. At no point did I say that they are not entitled to call themselves British. I stated that Great Britain was an Island that consists of Scotland, Wales and England. You do not live in Great Britain. Capiche?

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

He lost, despite having support from multiple unionist parties. Gildernew had no pact - she won on her own merits, without needing support from other parties. Deal with it.

You deal with it, those four votes could change the next time!:P

owenc

dlofnep wrote: »

I see reading comprehension isn't your strong point. At no point did I say that they are not entitled to call themselves British. I stated that Great Britain was an Island that consists of Scotland, Wales and England. You do not live in Great Britain. Capiche?

I was talking about the forum as a whole

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

You deal with it, those four votes could change the next time!:P

Oh, I'm dealing with Michelle's victory in Fermanagh/South Tyrone just fine, thank you very much.

dlofnep

owenc wrote: »

I was talking about the forum as a whole

No you weren't. You responded directly to one of my posts, and totally misinterpreted it of no fault but your own. I have never at any point stated that those in the north who feel a cultural affinity with Britain cannot call themselves British.

Iwasfrozen

dlofnep wrote: »

No you weren't. You responded directly to one of my posts, and totally misinterpreted it of no fault but your own. I have never at any point stated that those in the north who feel a cultural affinity with Britain cannot call themselves British.

To be fair though, they shouldn't. Unless they actually are from the isle of Britain.

dkin

dlofnep wrote: »

Of course it's attributed in part to the troubles - but there is no incentive for companies to come in and invest into the north, as the corp tax is too high. Sinn Féin do not at present have the ability to change this, but it is their policy to do so. So their economy is dependent in most part on the public sector, which is not sustainable.

The corporation tax is not as valuable as it once was as many other European countries have cut theirs to a similar level. I would suggest a pro business culture is more important and a highly educated workforce. I don't think your policy on scrapping the 11+ is a good move from an educational perspective.

They have a very detailed policy - but many of which they cannot implement because they do not possess the power to do so.

I read the manifesto it's not detailed, in fact the page I linked to earlier was more detailed.

Perhaps you didn't look hard enough? Harmonising tax at 12.5% across the island is a crystal clear Sinn Féin policy.

OK, well David Cameron said the same thing so we'll have to see, low corporation tax was a shrewd move by Ireland but I'm not too sure how long we'll continue to get away with it as many people in the EU are very unhappy. If we go Greece it'll be the first thing we have to agree to in order to get a bailout. Also although the 12.5% corporation tax is mentioned in the introduction it gets no mention in the actual manifesto. This is very shoddy.

Actually - they are looking to encourage more local business, with tax breaks for people to setup business.

The insistence on equality everywhere in the manifesto (it has a whole section, the economy has one chapter) and the insistence on heavily taxing wealthy people will act as a disincentive to creating business as it does in every socialist country.

While I don't advocate that a state's entire infrastructure become reliant on foreign investment - it is certainly required in moderation for employment. You can't have it both ways.

Of course you do require some foreign investment but I can find very little in the manifesto about it (mentioned twice, once to explain that "strict contract compliance conditions requiring that the measurable promotion of equality" be enforced) as I would expect for an essentially pro business tax.

But yet, there has been nothing implemented to change the dependency on public sector employment from them. They've only had a few decades to do so. Go figure.

In the republic we have become massively dependent on the public sector and the public sector cost has increased enormously over the last decade, the north has handled it better.

snow ghost

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

To be fair though, they shouldn't. Unless they actually are from the isle of Britain.

Nonsense.

If we have learned anything over the years, it should be to respect and accept other peoples' identities.

If some people in the North identify themselves as British, Irish or both that is their right and it is totally legitimate given the history of this island.

Iwasfrozen

snow ghost wrote: »

Nonsense.

If we have learned anything over the years, it should be to respect and accept other peoples' identities.

If some people in the North identify themselves as British, Irish or both that is their right and it is totally legitimate given the history of this island.

Anyone born in Ireland is Irish, you just cannot wish yourself British. The term is geographical not political.

LordSutch

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Anyone born in Ireland is Irish, you just cannot wish yourself British. The term is geographical not political.

We are talking N.Ireland you understand.

dkin

If a person refers to Ireland and Great Britain as the British Isles can they not call themselves British in a geographic rather than cultural sense?

snow ghost

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Anyone born in Ireland is Irish, you just cannot wish yourself British. The term is geographical not political.

More nonsense.

Identities are a tad more complicated than birth place... they encompass ethnicity, culture, etc, etc, etc.

Half the people where I live are Irish but were born in England - but came back here as children - as virtually everyone had to emigrate in the 50's and 60's. Irish patriot James Connolly was born in Scotland.

As the much qouted line from the British Duke of Wellington goes when asked if he was Irish, as he was born in Dublin:

"just because one was born in a stable doesn't make one a horse".

There is a sizeable minority of people on this island who identify themselves as British - that is their perogative. It threatens no one and should be respected.

Trying to tell people they aren't what they are is futile and flys in the face of what Irish patriots died for - to cherish all the children of Ireland equally. I'm sure that meant even if they identified themselves as British.

LordSutch

And just to continue your theme 'snow ghost', many people born in Britain of Irish parents consider themselves totally Irish, (even though they may never have been here), The 'Irish' brand is very strong & always seems to be 'one way', by which I mean (second, third & forth generation US citizens also considering themselves 'Irish' even though the connection may be tenuous) whilst a person born in the Republic, of English, Scottish, German, or Polish parentage could only ever be considered as 'Irish'.

A_Border_Bandit

TommyT wrote: »

Politics in the South are slightly different to the North...What policies did anyone standing in the North have? What were they going to do to bring jobs during the economic downturn? etc etc etc?
Anything else is just bull****.

I'm apolitical but from my perspective all parties are the same. Perhaps polititians get involved to make the country a better place but they all end up corrupt and lost in their own selfrighteousness.
How many of them would do their job for minimum wage? It's all backstabbing, personal gruges and personal gain.
Parties North and South are all the same. SF and DUP are mirror images of each other, once you switch the colours. The talisman for FF and FG are DeValera and Collins, both of whom were members of SF.
They're all the same. They're all Bull****.

Anarchism for the win!

dlofnep

A_Border_Bandit wrote: »

How many of them would do their job for minimum wage? It's all backstabbing, personal gruges and personal gain.

All Sinn Féin politicians earn the average industrial wage (356 per week), and the rest goes back into party. They are certainly not in it for the money. So to answer your question - Sinn Féin politicians probably come the closest to it.

In comparison, someone on the minimum wage in the South earns 346 per week.

ardmacha

In the republic we have become massively dependent on the public sector and the public sector cost has increased enormously over the last decade, the north has handled it better.

The public sector in the Republic is lean and mean compared to that in the North!

There is a sizeable minority of people on this island who identify themselves as British - that is their perogative. It threatens no one and should be respected.

People can identify with whoever they want, but colonialsim is repellant,

snow ghost

ardmacha wrote: »

People can identify with whoever they want, but colonial politics is repellant,

No one mentioned 'colonial politics' - I'm talkng about the legtimate British identity of a sizeable minority of people on this island.

Anyone seeking to deny them of this is almost indulgng in the politics of colonialism. Just as in the past colonialism tried to deny Irish people their identity and culture and to subsume them into a pan British one, doing so to the Unionist tradition is equally as abhorrent.

I respect the idealism of the Republic and believe that in a Republic everyone should be treated equally, regardless of their identity.

ardmacha

Whatever ethnic ties they retain it is reasonable to expect immigrants of whatever hue to work for the benefit of their host country and not to try and make it a colony of their country of origin.

snow ghost

ardmacha wrote: »

Whatever ethnic ties they retain it is reasonable to expect immigrants of whatever hue to work for the benefit of their host country and not to try and make it a colony of their country of origin.

A frivolous comment whch shows no respect for the modern reality of the people of Ireland, our shared history, equality nor the Idealism of the Republic.

The United Irishmen must be turning in their graves.

TommyT

owenc wrote: »

Yes northern ireland is ruled by people from the uk as it is part of the uk therefor making it british, my passport proves it too.

Are you over here on holiday?

TommyT

Spiritoftheseventies wrote: »

So how many empty seats will there be when parliament reconvenes?

At least 5.