Series 5, Episode 6 - "The Vampires of Venice"

Doctor DooM

pixelburp wrote: »

(I'm amazed at how the top 10 video didn't list any 80s "effects").

I was watching time flight last night.


Bloody hell.

Conversely I was also watching the 2 Doctors and felt it held up remarkably well.

popebenny16

The SFX thing has been buggin me since day one this year, that said Vampire in Venice was not as bad as The Eleventh Hour. Thing is, Millenium Effects and The Mill seem to be sharing our the CGI work - The Mill did Vampire in Venice, and it is odd that it is their effects which is causing all the debate.

I, who have been watching Who for offically four decades (which is odd because im 39 but somehow apt ) can say without fear of contradiction (yeah right) that, although bad effects were perfectly acceptable and excusable in the pre 2005 days, they are not now. The reason for that is because from day one pre 2005 the effects, although sometimes very good and sometimes very bad, were of a uniform standard and we knew that becuase of budget restrains and technological limitations and we expected that. The problems now is that we are seeing, for the first time since 2005, budget cuts resulting in a lower standard that we have experianced over the last five years, and that is the only reason why they are noticable. Had Vampires in Venice and The Eleventh Hour aired in 2005 with those shots no one would have noticed.

The mention of B5 is a good one - when it came out it was stunning, amd I remember being amaxed at Vorlon Ships that looked like Orchids in Space and were amazing. Now they look clunky. Oddly enough, the Legend of the Rangers DVD suffered for the same reason as Vampires in Venice did - cutbacks to the SFX budget. What is noticable too is that the SFX budget is being utilised differently depending on if Beth Willis or Piers Wenger is the Exectutive in charge of the episode.

Thankfully, the Visual Effects on location and in studio are grand, and for as for the story itself, I liked the comedic parts which have been referenced to and the library card scene (which was shown on Friday Night with Jonathon Ross ages ago and couldnt wait for my kids to see it).

It may not have been the best show this run, but that shows the strength of this run as a whole. Next week is a belter by all accounts, we get that classic line "old enemies for a new Doctor" the following week, then two really promising ones

One of which already has its own Thread :cool:

One gripe is that the BBC seem determined to push Who back to 5 30 on a saturday evening, but I posted about that a few years ago. Interestingly the Continuity man said before Total Wipeout at 5 pm "welcome to Saturday night on BBC1!"

Nevyn

I enjoyed it, so did the kids "Thier fish, thier fish from space, romping around trying to convert the human race". I think you can take Dr Who too seriously.

So much of the visuals I have to say were like Venice as protrayed in assasins creed 2, so much so that when the Dr started climbing my daugther made the comment that
"He's no Ezio!".

Pittens

So what was bad in the first episode in terms of CGI? The non-transformed shape of the shape changer thing? Or the aliens with the big eye spaceship things. I get that the former was not brilliant but thought the latter was great.

Or am I being very undemanding?

thing is, of course, they could abandon CGI altogether and people would be happy. The monsters look better, scarier, when they are almost human.

Daemos

I thought the SFX in Eleventh Hour were great, had no objection to them whatsoever. But the water and storm clouds this week were terrible (and I'm also watching on a standard TV so HD has nothing to do with it)

But getting back to it being Dr Who and the special effects were always dodgy so it's okay now? I think that's an absolutely rubbish argument. It's a different age with different technology and resources available, so a flagship show like Dr Who shouldn't have dodgy SFX. Remember Stolen Earth/Journey's End? The SFX in those episodes were brilliant, they were really at the peak of what could be accomplished, which makes it even sadder that budget cuts mean we have to get cheaper ones now.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not too fussy about bad effects. Was re-watching The Terminator the other week and thought "wow, this still looks good today", I'm just saying that it's surprising that the effects were so poor this week given The Mill's reputation (also popebenny in case you didn't know, Millenium FX are in charge of prosthetic effects only, all the CGI is done by The Mill )

Story, acting, script, cinematography > Special effects.

I didn't notice the SFX to be lacking. I honestly don't really care if they are either, once the show is engaging via plot & characters I'm happy. SFX are more like an added bonus. It irritates me when films these days get away with mediocre story telling and character development by saturating everything in gaudy CGI, going back to the basics of film is actually quite refreshing.

angelll

First time popping into the dr who section. I'm a new boardsie but not a new whovian....Anyway,i really don't like Matt Smiths doctor,at all. And Amy drives me crackers. I think a lot of the male fans are thinking,oh my gosh she's so pretty. Whatever,can't stand her. She is too knowing,she's only known the doctor for 5 mins and she already knows so much about him. Unless this is part of the series (she's from the future/part time lord/part whatever). Besides the actors,i'm finding the episodes really boring so far. Next weeks one looks good though so fingers crossed.

Busi_Girl08

angelll wrote: »

She is too knowing,she's only known the doctor for 5 mins and she already knows so much about him.

Hmmmm, not really.

For one thing, she has been obsessing over him for 12 years. Drawing pictures, dolls, dress-up, 4 councillors. She never forgot about him.

Also, we don't know how long she has been with the Doctor. We have seen 6 adventures (5 since the 11th Hour). She could have been with him for weeks in their dimension of time.

She knows how the Doctor thinks, and she knows how he doesn't think, like in The Beast Below.

I wasn't too crazy about her at first, but she has proven herself to be a bit more useful in a crisis than, say, Rose.

Welcome to the forum, by the way

angelll

Thanks busi_girl08

Re:Amy....
I just don't like her. Take for example when her hand was supposedly turned to stone and she couldn't move...but she kept telling the doctor to go,he had to go,he was the important one...... I mean how did she know? How does she know he is so important...and why be so noble? I mean if the weeping angels were closing in on me i wouldn't be saying go....i'd be saying "stay and don't take your eyes off them!" It's possibly part of the plot or just that's she's a really annoying know it all

Daemos

Well he does have a habit of saving planets and countries and she knows it, it was obviously Amy showing a bit of humility in saying I'm not as valuable as you are, save yourself.

Welcome to the forum btw

angelll

Thanks dapoolrulz!
Just saying...don't like her. I loved Rose and Donna,couldn't stand martha. It's just i would prefer if she (amelia) was a bit more clueless,iykwim? She seems to know TOO much.

pixelburp

I dunno, I don't think she knows as much as she makes out: she seemed quite helpless and lost when things took a turn for the worse last week & she was blind. I suspect most of her is bravado, banter and sarcasm. Donna was similar, but in her case it was more of a lippy gob.

angelll

mmmmmmm. I just think she has too much on her plate...like she is meant to be superwoman....too much,too quickly. Rose is the way she is as she had been with the doctor for years,same with donna. Martha was pretty crap...but then she wasn't meant to be fantastic. I really couldn't believe it when she walked the earth evading the master for a year,she had the survival skills of a gnat....but that's a whole other thread,lol.

ixoy

I'd argue Donna was like that with the Doctor straight off - not something she got from being years with him. No different with Amy. In fact, in some deeply distrubed way, she's been with the Doctor in some form for years too (even if only in her fantasies). I quite like her confidence and eagerness and I'm defnitely not using her looks to overlook things since I couldn't care less!

pixelburp

Also, to continue the comparisons with Sarah Jane, she was also pretty confident & sarky from the off; nothing rattled to her to such an extent that should couldn't fire a quick aside back.

Doctor DooM

ixoy wrote: »

I'd argue Donna was like that with the Doctor straight off - not something she got from being years with him. No different with Amy. In fact, in some deeply distrubed way, she's been with the Doctor in some form for years too (even if only in her fantasies). I quite like her confidence and eagerness and I'm defnitely not using her looks to overlook things since I couldn't care less!

Well I can't claim the same excuse but lines like "my boys" and "I'm not clingy" make her much more human and likable than Rose and Martha ever were to me. I like the way her obsession with the Doctor is NOT a healthy thing for once

I still think Donna's evolution from gobby ca-ow to a caring human being and the heart breaking reversion (End of time doesn't count on account of it being thick) makes her a better character than Amy, but then Amy's only been about a third of the air time of Donna so far.

angelll

Maybe...although i'm not getting the whole series,not just amy. I'm finding it a bit boring tbh. I could watch 9 & 10 over and over (and have) but the writing now seems to be very childish? I mean the fish people actually asked the doctor for help,he could have helped them relocate to another planet but no,the mother didn't know the girls name so they all had to die.....right.
And it's not matt smiths fault, he has the look,the acting skills. It's not Karen's fault either,she's just playing an unlikeable (for me) character. It's weird that the only one i really like so far is Rory....

Stark

angelll wrote:

It's weird that the only one i really like so far is Rory....

Why, did he fart?

sceptre

Thaedydal wrote: »

So much of the visuals I have to say were like Venice as protrayed in assasins creed 2

Yeah, thought the same. Or as I thought, "oh, it's like that game I vaguely recall someone playing over Christmas".

angelll

Stark wrote: »

Why, did he fart?

?????
Sorry don't get this?

ixoy

angelll wrote:

Maybe...although i'm not getting the whole series,not just amy. I'm finding it a bit boring tbh. I could watch 9 & 10 over and over (and have) but the writing now seems to be very childish?

angelll wrote: »

?????
Sorry don't get this?

Because many of us found RTD's era far more childish than anything Moffat has done. This included farting aliens as well as little cartoony adipose nonsense.

I'm finding this season far less childish than before and far better pitched at being a family show. Could you really say the Weeping Angels 2-parter was more childish than the Dalek hybrid 2-part crapfest we had a few years ago? Was "The Beast Below" childish at all?! Very strongly disagree with the assertion that this season is more childish than what's gone before but I'd be interested in seeing why you think that other than that example above, to which I'd say: farting aliens, aliens made from fat, cactus aliens, and so on.

campo

Did not like this episode but next weeks looks class, huge Doctor Fan and Matt Smith is doing a great job not as good as David Tennant but who could be

angelll

ixoy wrote: »

Because many of us found RTD's era far more childish than anything Moffat has done. This included farting aliens as well as little cartoony adipose nonsense.

I'm finding this season far less childish than before and far better pitched at being a family show. Could you really say the Weeping Angels 2-parter was more childish than the Dalek hybrid 2-part crapfest we had a few years ago? Was "The Beast Below" childish at all?! Very strongly disagree with the assertion that this season is more childish than what's gone before but I'd be interested in seeing why you think that other than that example above, to which I'd say: farting aliens, aliens made from fat, cactus aliens, and so on.

Righty get the farting quote now,sorry was wondering what i had missed,lol. Re the weeping angels,no the aliens as such were not childish but they weren't very scary. One grabbed the doctors jacket but that didn't send him back in time,amy also bumped into one and that didn't do anything either....the fact that with one touch they could send you back in time was a big part of blink,but now they kill by breaking someones neck? And stealing the voice cord thingys? Why? 'We want you to know he died screaming' Why does the doctor need to know that? Why do they want him to get angry as opposed to anyone else? Why haven't they spoken before?
The Daleks are meant to be crappy,lol
The beast below was good i guess but what was with the puppet sideshow? No need for it and no real explanation for them.
As for the 'vampires' in this episode. Either they can go outside or they can't,which? At one stage all they need is a sheet over their heads, in another they can't have the sun on them at all but one blast of mirrored sunlight from Amy and the guy disintegrates? And why was the doctor electrocuted one minute and grand the next? Why did the fishman not get down and jiggy himself with the girls they had changed?
As for the aliens made from fat...they were fair cute so they're forgiven,lol.

Pittens

One grabbed the doctors jacket but that didn't send him back in time,amy also bumped into one and that didn't do anything either....the fact that with one touch they could send you back in time was a big part of blink,but now they kill by breaking someones neck? And stealing the voice cord thingys? Why? 'We want you to know he died screaming' Why does the doctor need to know that? Why do they want him to get angry as opposed to anyone else? Why haven't they spoken before?

Gosh too many Whovian fans over-analyse things. They killed people to get their voice cords to speak. People mentioned this is the episode. They want the Doctor angry because they think they can win if he is angry. The dragging his jacket surprised the Doctor as well, and - since the jacket reappeared in the episode - it is relevant to some series arc. Why was he still alive? He asked himself. That will be answered sometime.

As for the rest the real problem you should have with Dr. Who is that there is a guy going back in time and finding stuff that never happened, and has never been recorded. If you accept that there were alien fish who took over Venice then how much sun they can handle is pretty minor. It's a lesser suspension of belief.

I like it to be consistent, and not deus ex machina. Beyond that it is a romp.

Banjo Fella

angelll wrote: »

One grabbed the doctors jacket but that didn't send him back in time,amy also bumped into one and that didn't do anything either....the fact that with one touch they could send you back in time was a big part of blink,but now they kill by breaking someones neck? Why?

The original Weeping Angels sent their victims back in time to feast upon their "potential energy", wasn't it? But unlike the starving stragglers in Blink, the Weeping Angel army was being fed by the radiation inferno surrounding the Byzantium. My guess is that they snapped their victims' necks simply because they weren't hungry, and to ensure that nothing could stop the Angels' resurrection.

Also, must say that I loved Vampires of Venice despite the fish-from-space silliness. The stag night scene at the start, the tension between Rory and The Doctor, and the William Hartnel library card were way too good to be dissatisfied with the episode.

angelll

Good point about the radiation,i'd forgotten that. Pittens i do realise it's not actually real . I'm a big fan and so far have been disappointed with this series, and was just explaining why. Saturdays episode looks brillliant...so hopefully it will be a turning point.

ixoy

angelll wrote: »

I'm a big fan and so far have been disappointed with this series, and was just explaining why. Saturdays episode looks brillliant...so hopefully it will be a turning point.

Just a query - did you like "The End of Time"? 'Coz that was one episode. more than most, filled with illogical plot holes and poor characterisation.

angelll

Ok true....don't make me eat my words ,lol. The master was so ridiculous in that episode,it was like watching xmen instead of dr who. But all the OTHER episodes were brilliant!

Doctor DooM

angelll wrote: »

Ok true....don't make me eat my words ,lol. The master was so ridiculous in that episode,it was like watching xmen instead of dr who. But all the OTHER episodes were brilliant!

What's wrong with the x-men?

FishFood

Originally Posted by angelll
One grabbed the doctors jacket but that didn't send him back in time,amy also bumped into one and that didn't do anything either....the fact that with one touch they could send you back in time was a big part of blink,but now they kill by breaking someones neck? Why?

Might be wrong but I thought in the case of the Doctor it had to do with them needing him to jump or be thrown into the crack in time to seal it?

In amy's case the doctor says it himself, they are running scared from the time crack and are only interested in defending themselves when they think Amy can see them.