Baltic Pride

Annasopra

As you are probably aware Baltic Pride went ahead today in Vilnius in Lithuania today

The scenes there are very shocking

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CPjE-heQL3w

Nevyn

and homosexuality is legal there and there are anti discrimination laws.

But

http://www.amnesty.org/en/news-and-updates/news/lithuanian-parliament-supports-banning-discussion-homosexuality-schools-20090604

Lithuanian parliament supports banning discussion of homosexuality in schools
Lithuanian LGBT activists take part in Baltic Pride, Latvia, 16 May 2009

Lithuanian LGBT activists take part in Baltic Pride, Latvia, 16 May 2009

© Amnesty International

4 June 2009
The Lithuanian parliament has voted in favour of a measure that would prohibit the discussion of homosexuality in schools and ban any reference to it in public information that can be viewed by children. The Seimas voted by an overwhelming majority on Tuesday to move forward to a final vote on an amendment to the "Law on the Protection of Minors against the Detrimental Effect of Public Information".

The proposed amendment would class homosexuality alongside issues such as the portrayal of physical or psychological violence, the display of a dead or cruelly mutilated body of a person, and information that arouses fear or horror, or encourages self-mutilation or suicide.

Amnesty International condemned the vote by the Seimas, saying that the amendment institutionalizes homophobia and violates the right to freedom of expression and the right to be free from discrimination.

"By voting to move forward with this bill, the Seimas has reinforced discrimination based on a person's sexual orientation," said Nicola Duckworth, Europe and Central Asia Programme Director at Amnesty International.

"The amendment denies the right to freedom of expression and deprives students' access to the support and protection they may need. The Lithuanian parliament must respect everyone's full rights and reject this amendment when it comes to the final vote."

The new law is part of a growing climate of intimidation and discrimination in Lithuania against lesbians, gay men and bisexual and transgender people. In the past year, municipal authorities have issued derogatory statements.

An EU initiative, the "For Diversity, Against Discrimination" touring truck, was banned in Vilnius and Kaunas on 20 August 2008. The Mayor of Kaunas said that "[the] homosexual festival may cause many negative emotions."

Tuesday saw the first reading of the draft law in full plenary. Many parliamentarians were not present for the vote, but of those that were 57 voted in favour of the law, two against and eight abstained.

The proposed amendment goes against the joint statement that Lithuania signed at the UN General Assembly in December 2008, which reaffirmed that human rights apply equally to every human being regardless of sexual orientation or gender identity.

kisaragi

That's shocking indeed How sad... The LGBT community there are really brave to go ahead with everything in spite of everything. I think in a way it's a reminder of how important gay pride is, and for someone like me who's never experienced discrimination like that it's a reminder of what I sometimes take for granted.

cotwold

I dont really understand, are the people behind the black barrier against pride or with pride and being penned in?

Goodshape

The people behind the barricades were protesting against the pride march (as far as I can make out).

Reuters article says about 500 people marched for Pride, while 1,000 people protested :-/

Another article puts the numbers at 400 / 2,000.

Deutsche Welle wrote:

Among those detained were two members of the Lithuanian parliament. The MPs were being charged with attempting to incite a riot, Lancinskas told reporters.

Ugh.

Dwn Wth Vwls

It's just mind boggling, I can't understand people protesting against it on that sort of scale. There's a group of women up the front there, smiling for the camera with their homophobic signs

lepidopteria

So basically the police were doing their job and trying to keep people safe? I really don't see the issue here, gay people tried a march in a country that has bigger problems than who people sleep with and it messed up, to be honest I think the police did a good job there and it was kind of bloody selfish of all the gay people to force a crippling economy to further waste resources just to make sure they don't get a kicking by parading their sexuality (that no one really gives a **** about anyway) just because they think EVERYONE should validate them, seriously some day you'll all look back on stupid **** like this and see it as nothing but gay shame because pride is found in who you are to yourself not who you are in other peoples eyes

baby and crumble

Originally quoted by lepidopteria:

So basically the police were doing their job and trying to keep people safe? I really don't see the issue here, gay people tried a march in a country that has bigger problems than who people sleep with and it messed up, to be honest I think the police did a good job there and it was kind of bloody selfish of all the gay people to force a crippling economy to further waste resources just to make sure they don't get a kicking by parading their sexuality (that no one really gives a **** about anyway) just because they think EVERYONE should validate them, seriously some day you'll all look back on stupid **** like this and see it as nothing but gay shame because pride is found in who you are to yourself not who you are in other peoples eyes

Hang on a minute here. Nobody is saying the cops doing their job is the shocking thing here.

You can see at the start of the video that the march wasn't your stereotypical big city gay pride, like LA or London, or even Dublin, where it's a celebration of who you are (and personally I dislike these types of 'pride' parades, because I think they do more harm than good once the country has gone past a certain point in acceptance, but that's an issue for another thread). Nobody has their tops off, nobody is dancing, nobody is in drag, nobody is doing any of that stuff. They are CLEARLY marching for their rights, which as Thaedydal pointed out are there in the smallest manner on paper only.


Also, this is a bigger issue that 'who people sleep with'. This is an issue about respecting other human beings, regardless of anything in their make-up. No-one was 'parading' anything- they were walking down a road to show a country, and a government that appears to pretty much ignore/ actively discriminate against them, that they are there, and that just because some people (like you) don't like it, doesn't mean their rights can be ignored. And again, it's not about validation. I don't need someone to validate my being gay. i am. I make no bones about it. (but I also don't march into a room going 'heeeeeeeeeeeey everyone I'm GAY!') However, if I feel my rights are not being resepcted, that I am not being respected in the same way I respect others, then I WILL do something about it, just like these guys.

And by your logic, any protesting in a country that is in poor economic condition is 'selfish'? that make no sense, at all.

seriously some day you'll all look back on stupid **** like this and see it as nothing but gay shame because pride is found in who you are to yourself not who you are in other peoples eyes

this in itself is a baffling statement. Yes, pride is to be found in yourself. However respect and dignity is often to be found in the way other people treat you. I often think sometimes that having a 'Gay Pride' march is something of a misnomer in situations like this. This is about rights, about human dignity and about being free to live your life the way you want to. And to be quite honest if some people have to be made uncomfortable for me to be about to walk down the street holding my girlfriends and without getting the crap kicked out of me, hey I'm all for it.

Although no doubt my walking down grafton st with my girlfriend in one hand and a can of coke in the other is 'parading' my sexuality in front of you. Oops.

Goodshape

Kind of bloody selfish of all the protestors to force a crippling economy to further waste resources just to make sure their ignorant hatred doesn't spark into violence... don't ya think?

lepidopteria

and that just because some people (like you) don't like it,

I neither like nor dislike it, I don't care enough to even waste my time on it and just to be clear about this if you were to walk down the street holding your girlfriends hand it'd be encouraged, hell half the guys you'd encounter would ask if you do a double act, that video showed only males, lesbians are immune in cases like that because to the average homophobe you're the ultimate fantasy,. two girls and the guy is just **** fodder for them

Annasopra

Lepidopteria - if no-one in Lithuania gives a **** about sexuality then why were there so many protesters and why has the parliament tried to force through such draconian legislation?

lepidopteria

Goodshape wrote: »

Kind of bloody selfish of all the protestors to force a crippling economy to further waste resources just to make sure their ignorant hatred doesn't spark into violence... don't ya think?

Well yeah, if an economy is dying you don't add fuel to the crippling fire about something as rediclous as your "Sexuality", no one really gives a **** who you shag, the only people that think other people care are gay people (I'd actually say gay males mostly there) because attention is a drug and you are addicts

lepidopteria

Johnnymcg wrote: »

Lepidopteria - if no-one in Lithuania gives a **** about sexuality then why were there so many protesters and why has the parliament tried to force through such draconian legislation?

Seriously dude I don't spend all day reading newspapers just so I can debate with you the politics of any given country, all my replies are based on the video in the OP, thats it and I still stand by what I said, the police did nothing wrong and the big march was selfish

rainbow kirby

lepidopteria wrote: »

the only people that think other people care are gay people (I'd actually say gay males mostly there) because attention is a drug and you are addicts

Warned. Don't post in this thread again.

baby and crumble

i feel like i'm being trolled right now, but i just have to say that I find your comments about 2 lesbians being 'immune' to homophobia ridiculous in the extreme. Not to mention extradordinarily ignorant. I don't WANT to be anybody's '**** fodder' as you so delightfully put it, and that is exactly the point. That is the ULTIMATE in disrespect.

lepidopteria

rainbow kirby wrote: »

Warned. Don't post in this thread again.

Ok...no wait does that count? sorry I won't say gay males are all attention seekers anymore and all lesbian relationships are straight male fantacies, how dare I state the obvious, next thing you know I'll be making mad claims like the Earth is round and man evolved from apes....

rainbow kirby

lepidopteria wrote: »

Ok...no wait does that count? sorry I won't say gay males are all attention seekers anymore and all lesbian relationships are straight male fantacies, how dare I state the obvious, next thing you know I'll be making mad claims like the Earth is round and man evolved from apes....

Banned for a week for disobeying a mod warning on thread, and continued trolling.

Hmm_Messiah

Back on topic

I don't see what is so shocking

Peope are allowed March
People are allowed Protest

I do not get entirely why people need to march and be proud that they are gay, whats to be proud of / being proud of red hair, being proud that your eyes are blue?

I would agree it must be difficult for those who feel oppressed. ANd the legislation seems bisarre from the "modern" irish perspective

But the fuller picture is too big for a post in reply, there are cultural perspectives, there is the reality of the impact of being isolated in the USSR for decades, for a slow progress towards what is seen as modern

I only saw this post becausethe Baltics (Latvia) interest me , but I don't really see

1. how the proposed law is any more flawed, or more discriminatory than Irish proposas to create a "less than right", less than right to marry like any man and woman would have

2. Overall it seems (I got bored of the lack of action) that the march was facilitated, and the police did a good job.

There is a post on this same page about some one uncomfortable being affection in rural Ireland - lets not be so dramatic about our european neighbours

MicraBoy

Hmm_Messiah wrote: »

Back on topic

I don't see what is so shocking

Peope are allowed March
People are allowed Protest

I do not get entirely why people need to march and be proud that they are gay, whats to be proud of / being proud of red hair, being proud that your eyes are blue?

I would agree it must be difficult for those who feel oppressed. ANd the legislation seems bisarre from the "modern" irish perspective

But the fuller picture is too big for a post in reply, there are cultural perspectives, there is the reality of the impact of being isolated in the USSR for decades, for a slow progress towards what is seen as modern

I only saw this post becausethe Baltics (Latvia) interest me , but I don't really see

1. how the proposed law is any more flawed, or more discriminatory than Irish proposas to create a "less than right", less than right to marry like any man and woman would have

2. Overall it seems (I got bored of the lack of action) that the march was facilitated, and the police did a good job.

There is a post on this same page about some one uncomfortable being affection in rural Ireland - lets not be so dramatic about our european neighbours

If you don't get why people feel the need to march and be proud then you must be completely bewildered as to why someone would want to counter protest a pointless march.

You accept that people have the right to protest and march but the point is they have the right to do it peacefully. Contrast the march and protest and tell me which one was peaceful and which wasn't.

While you might feel it is ok to apologise for this kind of behaviour on historical grounds the reality of the now is that Latvia is an EU country, and as fellow EU citizens we have the right to comment on this kind of intimidation.

Hmm_Messiah

MicraBoy wrote: »

If you don't get why people feel the need to march and be proud then you must be completely bewildered as to why someone would want to counter protest a pointless march.

You accept that people have the right to protest and march but the point is they have the right to do it peacefully. Contrast the march and protest and tell me which one was peaceful and which wasn't.

While you might feel it is ok to apologise for this kind of behaviour on historical grounds the reality of the now is that Latvia is an EU country, and as fellow EU citizens we have the right to comment on this kind of intimidation.

Oh I understand fully why some people feel the need to counter protest. Was that not implied. I don't understand the reasons for a Pride march anywhere, though if anything I do understand more how a discriminated minority may want to march

I am also fully appreciative of the contrast, I have been to protests in Riga , none of this was my point.

I just don't see what is so shocking


And you don't need to be a EU citizen to comment on anything, not sure why you would justify having an opinion by that - as an individual you are fully entitled to comment

my comment was "what is so shocking"

And I did not apologise for any behaviour on historical grounds - I simply touched on explaining the mindset of Post USSR people, if you are unfamiliar with it thats ok. But the idea things are black or white is rarely the case


If something happening I felt stongly against, I would like to be able to protest, loudly etc. if need be

The problem with changing the mindset of a large portion of a nation is it doesn't happen from the starting piont of decrying their bigotry

Goodshape

The fact that those taking part in the pride parade were outnumbered maybe more than 2 to 1 by protesters is what I found shocking.

OK, so you might disagree that these people deserve the same rights as you. But to disagree so much that you take to the street to shout them down? Ugh.

It's shocking, or at the very least disappointing, to think that this attitude exists, to this scale, in Europe in 2010.

spurious

You should go see what happens at the 'March of Tolerance' in Krakow.

We have no need to think we're so modern and liberal here though - it wasn't so long ago any sort of Pride march here was unusual. Hell, we even have gay people still not seeing the point of Pride.

shay_562

spurious wrote: »

Hell, we even have gay people still not seeing the point of Pride.

...without wanting to jump at an opportunity to take offense or drag things too far off-topic, I think there's a massive gulf between actively protesting against Pride parades and simply not liking them or not agreeing with them, and equating the two is not only simplistic, but undermines how serious it is to have angry counter-protests to a pride march. I also don't think it's exemplary of any lack of modernity or liberalism, simply a difference of opinion - in fact, the ability to have such a difference of opinion and yet still have pride parades without things ending in violence or disorder is probably more of a mark of advancement and tolerance.

DubArk

I think I spotted Brenda Power chucking bottles at the marchers!!

baby and crumble

Originally Posted by spurious
Hell, we even have gay people still not seeing the point of Pride.

And I think I'm probably one of those. Pride in some ways has somewhat degenerated from a show of political resistance and demands for equality to a somewhat 'fuck you' to straight people. I personally get annoyed that I am being represented by gyrating men dressed as angels. I think that current 'western' Pride marches have become a way for people to act as outrageously as possible to somewhat antagonise people.

Now, I am the first to admit that I could possibly remedy that by being myself and marching as a regular Josephone Soap in the parade, but that would do little to change the mindset of people who watch Pride coverage in the news and see the 40 year old guy dressed as Tina Turner, or the 16 year old baby dyke that looks like they'd punch you as soon as look at you. Because those are the images that sell in newspapers, and therefore those are the images that begin to illustrate who we are as a societal group. The diversity within the gay community is rarely recognised- if you're not colourful and overtly sexual, very often you are dubbed as boring.

These are, of course, only my opinions, and as such will annoy some people, others will agree, and still others won't give a crap. And that's how it should be!

I love the idea of marching for political and societal change, I really do. Which is why marches for marriage equality, adoption equality, next of kin visitation rights etc I will fully support. But Pride as it is now, gives me qualms. I am not neccesarily 'proud' of being gay. Just like I'm not 'proud' of being white, or being irish, of being a woman, of being protestant, or of being a nerd. I just am all those things, and together they and many other elements, make up me.

Chorcai

I worked with a guy from Lithuania and boy was he one chauvinist cnut, he hated women, looked down on younger people and most of all hated our head chief cause he was gay, to add to his troubles, he had to report to me. Aww how I miss him. Best day ever was when I told him just how many gay people he was working with, a little bit of him died inside that was fun !

All these "new" EU states are ****ed up, yet to meet a Polish gay guy, most I'd say are gay for pay.

DubArk

Chorcai wrote: »

All these "new" EU states are ****ed up, yet to meet a Polish gay guy, most I'd say are gay for pay.

Kettle....pot.....black :rolleyes:

shoegirl

lepidopteria wrote: »

Well yeah, if an economy is dying you don't add fuel to the crippling fire about something as rediclous as your "Sexuality", no one really gives a **** who you shag, the only people that think other people care are gay people (I'd actually say gay males mostly there) because attention is a drug and you are addicts

That actually doesn't even merit a response. There are festivals of all kinds for all kinds of different people. Why are gays any different? I've been to pride festivals all over the world and the vast majority of gays are increasingly indistinguisable from heteros. If people want to get together and celebrate their lives - which is not done for them by anybody else - then why not? Sure there are a few attention seekers, but they are very few and far between.

shoegirl

Chorcai wrote: »

All these "new" EU states are ****ed up, yet to meet a Polish gay guy, most I'd say are gay for pay.

Thats a lot of bull. I was in Gran Canaria over the last week and got talking to a lovely Polish guy outside out of the tatoo parlours. He showed me the scar on his back that the police back home gave him. I've also had lots of neighbours back home from Lithuania, Latvia, Ukraine etc, and most of them have a fair degree of cop on.

To be honest, a lot of people learn a lot when travelling and living abroad. Its pretty much like people who stayed here in the 80s instead of emmigrating - those who did learned from the experience and had very different outlooks to people back home who rarely went anywhere.

Most of these countries come from extremely repressive political regimes, so it is unsurprising that it is taking time for them to change socially.

johnnny

I think is hard live in Vilnius or Riga, it is.

pq0n1ct4ve8zf5

I suppose a lot of those countries have a pretty unreconstructed image of masculinity (look at the totally irony free way the men bulk up, shave their heads, wear muscle t-shirts etc, not all of them I know but still), and I'm guessing legalisation and visibility of the gay community isn't as well established as it would be in most Western European countries. Still and all though it's obviously awful and kind of does bring home the real purpose of the marches, the bravery it would take to march past those nasty bastards does make strolling down Patrick Street with twenty of your mates a bit easy.

Also, based on his antics between 3:00 and 5:0something, techno viking has let himself go, and turned into an asshole...