Will religion, in Ireland, die out?

Caulego

StudentDad wrote: »

This isn't a question of theism bad atheism good - this is a question of freedom of thought and expression.
At the end of the day when people see the RC church acting in a manner contrary to it's own core beliefs, how the hell can that same church expect to retain it's moral authority?

SD

Yes, it is supposedly, though only theoretically, about freedom of expression, which is something that the Irish Constitution supposedly upholds.

Freedom of speech is protected by Article 40.6.1. However the article qualifies this right, providing that it may not be used to undermine "public order or morality or the authority of the State". Furthermore, the constitution explicitly requires that the publication of "blasphemous, seditious, or indecent matter" be a criminal offence, leading the government to pass a new blasphemy law on 8 July 2009. Therfore the 'morality or authority of the State' is decided on the basis of blind belief in an unseen and unquestionable deity, which is very convenient. Therefore, 'religious' rights and feelings are protected by State law but those who disagree with such views are not, therefore hypocritically denying the right to free speech in the first place.

Secondly, we can't really have free speech and the right to express an opinion unless it agrees with the opening lines of the Constitution itself, which says:
"In the Name of the Most Holy Trinity, from Whom is all authority and to Whom, as our final end, all actions both of men and States must be referred, We, the people of Éire...."
This essentially states and demands recognition for the placement of all authority in a 'Christian' three-headed deity, for which there is no evidence; for if such a being existed according to its own rules, in reality it would have prevented or at least made people aware of the evil being done for generations in its name, especially the buggery of defenceless children by its priesthood, and whom Jesus supposedly clearly commaned be drowned with a millstone around their necks.
Essentially, Ireland is a theocracy in the guise of an autonomous democracy, which is, to my way of thinking, more aptly described as a 'hypocracy', or a system of governance based on contradiction and conveneient beliefs that are falsely manufactured to cause division and contradiction. It might go some way towards explaining the schizophrenic myopia that hangs like a cloud over this 'holy' island.

Are regards your question, " how the hell can that same church expect to retain it's moral authority?", it can't, as it never held moral (right-thinking) authority, but immoral authority, by way of artificially created fears and threats if any of the 'flock' strayed from their crooked path of unreason and 'blind faith'. Fear is what it's all about, and not reason or good thinking, as there is no profit in that for the 'sheep-herds' who need to fleece their stock on a regular basis.

philologos

I was watching these clips from a debate between John Lennox and Michael Shermer on the existence of God. I think he puts it well in ways that I've tried to on boards.ie before but with more references and in a more articulate manner:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f1icax8npzw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3s0CHW00cA

It seems that actually we all bring assumptions to the table in the God debate. We just need to analyse how reasonable it is to hold the assumptions that we do. The two videos above challenge some assumptions that atheists bring to the God debate.

People can claim that the God discussion is like Santa Claus or fairytales but ultimately it really isn't.

LighterGuy

ScumLord wrote: »

It is a debate, just because the majority of people have one opinion doesn't mean the debate is biased it just means there's a pretty obvious result.

One side is speaking the truth the other side is trying to convince them that they should be allowed to believe whatever they what to believe and let that believe corrupt the world.
I don't believe the church has anything good left in it, it's had it's time and is now defunct.

In my opinion. Its all about where you ask. For example if I went into a church tomorrow and asked for a vote of people who believed in god? :pac: ... or like going onto a swingers site and asking is swinging a good thing or bad thing? ... what you think the outcomes will be :pac:

LighterGuy

greenpilot wrote: »

I think you are missing the point, most Irish people, who surf the web, are aware or use Boards.ie.....and therefore DONT believe in God.....thats a lot of people, most of the population, in fact.

I aint missing no point.
As popular as boards.ie is, it is not an accurate way to measure things. As of the last census 4.58 million people live in Ireland. Lets even take 50% of that ... are you really willing to bet 2.29 million people use boards.ie?

wonderwoman2

yes indeed but the church has a hold on schools still so that it's self is a big problem, I reckon in the next few years the school system has to change to accommodate everyone.

xxtattyberxx

I cant see religion ever dying out, as nice as it would be.
I do believe that the church (catholic) has started loosing the power that it once held over people/ politics / schools (especially in Ireland) and will continue to loose its reign of power. Considering the hold that it once hand, I was more than happy to see and send my son to a non demonination Gaelscoil, Irish without the pressure of having God etc thrown down their throats
I would be far from a catholic but from what I see there are people out there who strongly believe in religion, they have little to no faith in the church but have in a superior being.

NIMAN

If the Church was not involved in the Irish education system, you would see them die off a lot quicker.

If it was not for the danger of not getting my children educated in one of the local schools, I would probably have signed the 'Get Out of the Catholic Church' form a long time ago.

Kidchameleon

Even if all the religions die out, we'll still have the Atheists, who are more bloody "religious" than the most extreme Muslim/Catholic ect out there.

Kidchameleon

Calibos wrote: »

While science can't say definately what happens after death and thus doesn't say anything, I think its not a huge jump to conclude that when I die, it will 'feel' like the other 15 billions years before I was born, ie. Nothing!! That doesn't depress me or make my life feel like its not worth living, it makes me feel energised to fill my life with meaning because its the only shot at existence I will have.

Visited a medium a few years ago in Glasgow. Got messages from my dead dad, things that NOBODY but myself and him knew. Got messages to pass on to my family. I wonder how science would explain that?

stovelid

To use one superfluous comma, Mr. recyclingbin, may be regarded as a misfortune. To use both looks like carelessness

take everything

It is, not, beyond, the realm, of possibility.

Celly Smunt

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Visited a medium a few years ago in Glasgow. Got messages from my dead dad, things that NOBODY but myself and him knew. Got messages to pass on to my family. I wonder how science would explain that?

probability

Vicxas

pmcmahon wrote: »

probability

Highly likely probability.

iPlop

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Visited a medium a few years ago in Glasgow. Got messages from my dead dad, things that NOBODY but myself and him knew. Got messages to pass on to my family. I wonder how science would explain that?

Watch it, posters will probably call you stupid for believing that, this is Atheist Hours after all.

I believe you though:)

Celly Smunt

Vicxas wrote: »

Highly likely probability.

still plausible

RichieC

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Visited a medium a few years ago in Glasgow. Got messages from my dead dad, things that NOBODY but myself and him knew. Got messages to pass on to my family. I wonder how science would explain that?

everyone says this when they leave a medium.. going in the first place implies you believe in the rubbish, so for a start we're dealing with confirmation bias.

the other part is cold reading, a great skill to have in business, especially the "medium" business. they basically read your face as they talk and can tell by your face when they are getting close.


the awkward moment when someone tells you they went to a medium in real life...

pljudge321

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Even if all the religions die out, we'll still have the Atheists, who are more bloody "religious" than the most extreme Muslim/Catholic ect out there.

http://usahitman.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/wtc-911.jpg :rolleyes:

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Visited a medium a few years ago in Glasgow. Got messages from my dead dad, things that NOBODY but myself and him knew. Got messages to pass on to my family. I wonder how science would explain that?

It's called cold reading, quite a common and well known technique.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cold_reading

Ghost Buster

Kidchameleon wrote: »

Visited a medium a few years ago in Glasgow. Got messages from my dead dad, things that NOBODY but myself and him knew. Got messages to pass on to my family. I wonder how science would explain that?

I wonder how science can explain that as well.
I also wonder how Derren Brown, David Blane and Keith Barry would explain that seeing as they can all do it to.

RichieC

Sink The Banana wrote: »

Watch it, posters will probably call you stupid for believing that, this is Atheist Hours after all.

I believe you though:)

Christianity forbids mediums.

Leviticus 19:31
'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.'

Leviticus 20:27
"Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."

ect.

Celly Smunt

RichieC wrote: »

Christianity forbids mediums.

Leviticus 19:31
'Do not turn to mediums or seek out spiritists, for you will be defiled by them. I am the LORD your God.'

Leviticus 20:27
"Men and women among you who act as mediums or psychics must be put to death by stoning. They are guilty of a capital offense."

ect.

how can anybody say the bible promotes love and compassion with verses such as that

RichieC

pmcmahon wrote: »

how can anybody say the bible promotes love and compassion with verses such as that

they are light hearted verses. you should see the one about dashing unruly children off of rocks.

Don't believe what the internet tell you, both the koran and the bible are as barbaric as each other.

gbee

The-Rigger wrote: »

Though, comparatively I think worshipping the sun at least has some degree sort of merit and logic.

It's the fact that man wanted to believe in something was the impetuous for smarter men to invent outrageous things and make the masses do things they might not actually like doing.

And to force compliance in the absence of a standing army, local could behead you or stone you to death and they'd be rewarded with graces and blessing from Allah or God, or ...

Show Time

RichieC wrote: »

they are light hearted verses. you should see the one about dashing unruly children off of rocks.

Don't believe what the internet tell you, both the koran and the bible are as barbaric as each other.

They knew the value of a good ruck in the old testament at least.

philologos

RichieC wrote: »

they are light hearted verses. you should see the one about dashing unruly children off of rocks.

Not really. The Jewish law imposed the death penalty. As of Christ the death penalty no longer stands, as if Christ has taken away the penalty of one's sin how could one impose death for the penalty of theirs. That's the definition of hypocrisy. That's an essential view of the Christian faith as Christ taught it (Matthew 18), Christianity 101 one could say.

As for Psalm 137 which you are citing. It is referring to the anger that the writer had at the fact that the Jewish people were in Babylon. It is not God endorsing such an act. It is rather a man communicating his anger.

RichieC wrote: »

Don't believe what the internet tell you, both the koran and the bible are as barbaric as each other.

pmcmahon: Don't believe what the internet (including boards.ie and other sites) tell you. If you are really curious and you'd like to know the truth I can only say give God a go, ask Him to guide you and read the Bible for yourself. You might be surprised at what you'll find.

Having read the whole Bible from start to finish and several sections multiple times since then I can honestly say that RichieC is presenting you a disingenuous rendering. Find out for yourself is all I'll say.

Watch the videos I linked to earlier in the thread and ask if it makes sense.

bradlente

May think of something nice to do with with all dem lovely churches;)

Kidchameleon

pljudge321 wrote: »

It's called cold reading, quite a common and well known technique.

No sorry your wrong, I dont want to go into too many details but near the end of his life my old man was having some trouble (business was failing ect) and he was very very stressed. There was an incident where we threw a few digs at each other. We never spoke about it, we were the only ones at home at the time. The medium (in GLASGOW) was telling me that he said sorry about the "boxing match". Cold reading my arse!

iamstop

Will religion, in Ireland, die out?

I hope so.

pljudge321

Kidchameleon wrote: »

No sorry your wrong, I dont want to go into too many details but near the end of his life my old man was having some trouble (business was failing ect) and he was very very stressed. There was an incident where we threw a few digs at each other. We never spoke about it, we were the only ones at home at the time. The medium (in GLASGOW) was telling me that he said sorry about the "boxing match". Cold reading my arse!

Sounds exactly like cold reading. You told the "psychic" about the incident with your father and they spoonfed it back to you using your reactions to hone in on some specific details.

If anyone really had such actual abilities don't you think they'd be out changing the world, making a fortune or claiming any of numerous unclaimed prizes for demonstrated paranormal abilities http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_prizes_for_evidence_of_the_paranormal.

RichieC

why has no psychic ever actually proven their gift?

wouldn't be surprised if that was somehow against the mediums rules, like using it to win the lottery..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=btP_vy5cQq4

Kidchameleon

pljudge321 wrote: »

Sounds exactly like cold reading. You told the "psychic" about the incident with your father

Could you show me where in my post that I said I told the medium anything?

The medium had an assistant outside the room. She basically tells you what to expect. She tells you not to say anything for your own benefit, the reason being that you can trust what your hearing. The most I said was yes a few times for the whole reading. Basically what happened when I entered the room, he held my hand, closed his eyes and dident say anything for about two minutes. Then he opened his eyes and said:

Medium: There's a David here (not real name), does that name mean anything to you?

Me: Yes.

Medium: Well he's telling me he's your dad he died in August of a heart attack.

Me: Yes.

Medium: He's telling me your in Glasgow with you mam and your brother and they are are off visiting your aunt at the moment.

Me: Yes that's right.

It basically went on like this for about 20 mins.

Look you probably will not believe and I respect that. But I assure you that he was giving me messages from my dad, lots and lots of precise details. It actually felt like my dad was there that day, it was totally mad.

Oh by the way, there's a difference between a medium and a psychic.