Will religion, in Ireland, die out?

Joey the lips

Jakkass wrote: »

bnt - If people want to identify as Catholics, I don't think it is anyones place to goad another into not putting that down on the census form. It's their choice, and their autonomy to decide what they believe in, or identify with.

That's probably why we see a disparity between % Catholics, and % mass attendance.

This point is missed on a lot... It is assumed that people simply click because they want to be part of a religion how ever I imagine the vast majority of families are not that daft.

A stronger census on religion is actually usually heald by the individual churches and yes this is compared. What i would be interested in knowing is the differece in those who say they are cat/prod/jew v's those who the churches of the faith have stats for themselves.

It has been long argued that census should not actually ask you your religion. I think the reason it happens in ireland is that ireland is largely a catholic state however over time I would like to see the census simply ask "Are you religious" So we then have the population divided up into religion and athiest. Although..... I wonder if reform of schools went ahead would the religious question be necessary....

ricman

IF you have kids its just easier to send your kids to the local school, most schools are catholic ,so its just easier to bring em up as catholics , by default.
I think theres maybe 5 per cent practising catholics in ireland , ie they actually live according to the ten commandments .ITS like the irish language, its grand as long as you don,t have to speak in irish.
Most people just use church s as venues for funerals, weddings ,and thats about it.
SO this would be harmless except, under the catholic ethos, gays are discriminated or they are invisible, in schools.And we don,t have a proper
sex education program in most schools.
WE,D be better off to have a secular system, which allows x amount of religious instruction per week, but theres no discrimination allowed in school, on the basis of race, religion or sexual orientation.
After all the government actually pays to run the schools.

Joey the lips

ricman wrote: »

IF you have kids its just easier to send your kids to the local school, most schools are catholic ,so its just easier to bring em up as catholics , by default.
I think theres maybe 5 per cent practising catholics in ireland , ie they actually live according to the ten commandments .ITS like the irish language, its grand as long as you don,t have to speak in irish.
Most people just use church s as venues for funerals, weddings ,and thats about it.
SO this would be harmless except, under the catholic ethos, gays are discriminated or they are invisible, in schools.And we don,t have a proper
sex education program in most schools.
WE,D be better off to have a secular system, which allows x amount of religious instruction per week, but theres no discrimination allowed in school, on the basis of race, religion or sexual orientation.
After all the government actually pays to run the schools.

That was my point you are still missing. Wait until the church does release is hold on schools. You will be now competing with a lot more people to get your child into the local school. I know for a fact that every denomination in ireland that runs a school systems has a practice of positive discrimination. It has been reconised for a long time that a lot of parents have been sending catholic children to church of ireland schools because they are smaller class sizes.... You dont here the catholic parents complaining about these being non denominational do you....

I find the callings and attitudes quite amazing... I wonder if at the end of the day will we really care if our jonny is catholic or not or will we care more about tomas paul or steven getting into the local school before jonny....


It is really amazing when you think of it how the same discrimination does not exist on boards.....

Killer Pigeon

I think a majority of people will always be agnostic.

walshb

It will never die out, because they are importing religion into Ireland all the time.
So, when there is a decrease in activity, they look abroad and import it

BigDuffman

My mate is going out with a girl from West Cork (we make him shower in disinfectant before he joins us for a pint), he heads down there every other weekend. Where he was bewildered by the sway the elder generation have over the younger when it comes to religion. At 24+ years of age you think you would have a certain degree of freedom with regards to political, spiritual and life choices.

Whilst spending his first weekend down there his missus nearly flipped the lid when he said he wasn't going to mass..he stuck to his guns and refused to go. The poor girl was distraught as her parents & community would disprove as going to mass on sunday is part of what they do. Even her brothers stated "is he not a catholic, like?!". He became tarred a "proddy pale dwelling dub".

To save his other half the hassle and worry he now goes grudgingly out of sympathy. I've a few friends around the country where the same trend seems to be true. When their out of their village/town/shire/hovel they have no interest in or desire to go to mass.
But as soon as their back on the parish turf its off to kneel down, stand up, sit down, kneel, stand, sit, shake hands, chanting in a low monotonous tone, listening some chap in black whilst he tells you stories of magnificent science / physics defying jewish zombie wizzard and a talking snake. Then hand over money twice for the upkeep of the worship barn.

I have no problem with people having faith (in fact I feel slightly jealous of those who are so sure about what happens when you die..but I like most of my generation would consider myself agnostic / pastafarian). But do have a problem with other people forcing their beliefs on anyone else.

Sandvich

I wonder if people only say they're not catholic to be "cool" though, while succumbing to pressure from their schools and parents elsewhere. It seems too unrealistic to me that religion will be gone from Ireland in 2 generations.

philologos

BigDuffman wrote: »

ven her brothers stated "is he not a catholic, like?!". He became tarred a "proddy pale dwelling dub".

The worst kind :pac:

Hank_Jones

Ahhh religion, what a load of tripe.

Don't mean to offend, that's just personal opinion.

Joey the lips

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Ahhh religion, what a load of tripe.

Don't mean to offend, that's just personal opinion.

Athiestism and agnosticism what a load of tripe... Can they not see the truth.... Dont mean to offend just a personel opinion

ScumLord

The one great loss from religion is the communal aspect, it was a great reason for people to get out and meet. I think that's the big hole left by religion in our lifes. You could say sporting events or the like but they where two separate groups of people coming together to compete not really the same as a local community coming together to be told to be better people.

DamoDLK

imagine..

aDeener

theboxer wrote: »

They arent. Their music is garbage if you are male and over 12 years old, but the lads themselves seem like a decent bunch. Id happily sink a beve with any of them. Unlike internet "I slag off everyone" chaps like yourself.

Of course, you, the internet hero, is better than these multi millionaires, eh?


I notice you seem to be a bit of an aul musician yourself, how did that go for ya? :pac:

Ahhhh, the jealousy.

bnt

Jakkass wrote: »

bnt - If people want to identify as Catholics, I don't think it is anyones place to goad another into not putting that down on the census form. It's their choice, and their autonomy to decide what they believe in, or identify with.

That's probably why we see a disparity between % Catholics, and % mass attendance.

If recommending that people tell the truth is to be classed as "goading", then I think we've hit on something important. "Ah, go awn, don't make a fuss, do what yer paw did, it's the way it's supposed to be". This country has hitched its national identity to Catholicism, like a caravan hanging off the back of a wheezy old Fiat - as if it didn't have a history before "St Patrick". Don't you have an identity of your own?

Here's the thing: I was brought up as a Catholic, not by choice, but I remember enough about it to know what that means. You recite the Nicene Creed as a statement of belief, and you are expected to believe it. I don't know if I ever really believed it, and I wonder how many people really do believe all of it. So, if you don't believe the Nicene Creed, are you a Catholic? That's the question I recommend people as themselves, and do I have to "goad" them in to answering honestly and truthfully?

You can probably tell I'm not Irish, since I think it's important to understand who I am, be clear about what I stand for, and act according to my principles. Not principles handed down from previous generations who didn't know any better. I'm not saying that the old principles are always wrong, but I don't think we should assume the truth of anything we were told before, just because it came from "authority". It's the 21st century, we do know better, and now it's time to decide what we really want. It might be that you want Catholicism, and I don't have a problem with that as long it's your choice, entered in to with your eyes open to the consequences, and not some old moth-bitten hand-me-down that you can't be bothered to chuck out. :pac:

Snowie

Im not wreacking my kids heads with going to church on a sunday morning.
Why the fvck would I want them sitting ina big room stating at some menlte case who hangin from a crosswhos the son of god. ?

Im sorry I can think of far better things to be doing.

If the catholic church disspanded our shores for more desserty surroundings Id be delighted.

Its a bain of a fair nation and has kept are backwards veiw in cheack for wat to many years.

Joey the lips

Snow-Monkey wrote: »

Im not wreacking my kids heads with going to church on a sunday morning.
Why the fvck would I want them sitting ina big room stating at some menlte case who hangin from a crosswhos the son of god. ?

Im sorry I can think of far better things to be doing.

If the catholic church disspanded our shores for more desserty surroundings Id be delighted.

Its a bain of a fair nation and has kept are backwards veiw in cheack for wat to many years.

What you mean is you dont believe in god so your not going to teach your kids.... It sounds a bit like my attitude... However I believe and will also be teaching my kids to believe.

what really is the difference in us both..... Ah... you have a problem with my beliefs.... I get you now.

ScumLord

Joey the lips wrote: »

What you mean is you dont believe in god so your not going to teach your kids.... It sounds a bit like my attitude... However I believe and will also be teaching my kids to believe.

what really is the difference in us both..... Ah... you have a problem with my beliefs.... I get you now.

I'll be letting my kids decide for themselves but I'm pretty confident given all the information they'll go with the thing that created tv, xboxes and processed sugar.

dubh101

I belive that organised religions are the biggest cause off wars since time began.

hairybowsie

ScumLord wrote: »

The one great loss from religion is the communal aspect, it was a great reason for people to get out and meet. I think that's the big hole left by religion in our lifes. You could say sporting events or the like but they where two separate groups of people coming together to compete not really the same as a local community coming together to be told to be better people.

Sporting events have turned into merchandising soulless occasions anyway.

Think that is a good point actually. Well .. I've chosen to extract my opinion of a good point from your view .. so apologies if I warp it in the next paragraph.

It is one of the reasons I still go (not living in Ireland though). How can we be better people. How can our society be a better place. How can we have better families. etc Meet together in a place where someone smiles at you and there is no ulterior motive or trying to sell you something. Beats going to the shops on a Sunday anyway.

The Jesus character depicted in the Bible (my religion of choice) has had some bad marketing recently. I like his anti-establishment streak in him. The way he rocked the Holy Roman Empire so much (through a non-violent standpoint) that they had to get rid of him.

I'd be interesting to see what people would offer as an alternative to countering the consumerist ethos that rules today. Some sort of a facebook group maybe? An online petition?

A communal group with a shared common value system, which is non-judgmental and based on love, with a belief based on - in light of a lack of evidence - a hope that death is not the end, which organizes outings/events/discussion groups that promote self development and finding out our purpose in life is etc etc for all age groups .. which has female as well male leaders.. where sex is discussed in an open way but does not become the overriding theme ... hoping that "religion" evolves into something like that. Something which stands up an ethos which tells you that what you own is what you are.

(hovers over submit reply button .. ah feck it)
/rant

ScumLord

hairybowsie wrote: »

Sporting events have turned into merchandising soulless occasions anyway.

Think that is a good point actually. Well .. I've chosen to extract my opinion of a good point from your view .. so apologies if I warp it in the next paragraph.

It is one of the reasons I still go (not living in Ireland though). How can we be better people. How can our society be a better place.

How can we have better families. etc Meet together in a place where someone smiles at you and there is no ulterior motive or trying to sell you something. Beats going to the shops on a Sunday anyway.

I don't see how church would really make the world a better place, nothing happens at church, people go in and listen to ancient dogma then have a chat outside and either go home or too the pub. There's no discussion, which probably did happen when the church started initially.

A communal group with a shared common value system, which is non-judgmental and based on love, with a belief based on - in light of a lack of evidence - a hope that death is not the end, which organizes outings/events/discussion groups that promote self development and finding out our purpose in life is etc etc for all age groups .. which has female as well male leaders.. where sex is discussed in an open way but does not become the overriding theme ... hoping that "religion" evolves into something like that. Something which stands up an ethos which tells you that what you own is what you are.

Why emphasis that point, what does it matter? I watched a documentary on the Buddha at the weekend and found it a very good spiritual way of life. It focuses on the here and now, be good now and reap the rewards now the possibility of an afterlife shouldn't be needed.

Openmp

bnt wrote: »

It's the 21st century, we do know better, and now it's time to decide what we really want. :

This kind of sentiment has been around for thousands of years. Of course seeing as you know better, why don't you go off and set up your own church and see if you'll still be around in 2000 years' time.

PK2008

Religion wont die out, our particular brand of religion might, but it'll be replaced by something else.

Until science can answer every question humankind has about life, religion will always have a role

Openmp

ScumLord wrote: »

Why emphasis that point, what does it matter? I watched a documentary on the Buddha at the weekend and found it a very good spiritual way of life. It focuses on the here and now, be good now and reap the rewards now the possibility of an afterlife shouldn't be needed.

I love the way Christians are portrayed as being irrational types with low IQ, whereas Buddhism is perfectly acceptable to atheist types. Perhaps it's because they're so far away and you don't get to see anything to be jealous of.

smellslikeshoes

Openmp wrote: »

I love the way Christians are portrayed as being irrational types with low IQ, whereas Buddhism is perfectly acceptable to atheist types. Perhaps it's because they're so far away and you don't get to see anything to be jealous of.

Makes perfect sense to me, Buddhists don't go out to shove their beliefs down the throats of other people.

Openmp

PK2008 wrote: »

Religion wont die out, our particular brand of religion might, but it'll be replaced by something else.

Until science can answer every question humankind has about life, religion will always have a role

Yeah right... The implication of course being that the universe is something that man is capable of fully understanding. That's the problem with you people who are fixated with Science. Of course for every observation you make, you uncover even more unsolved problems! - which ultimately ends in misery and it's no surprise the amount of embittered atheists having flame-wars with Christians on de interweb. Christians see science as a way to manipulate God's universe and don't see the discipline as an end in itself.

ScumLord

Openmp wrote: »

I love the way Christians are portrayed as being irrational types with low IQ, whereas Buddhism is perfectly acceptable to atheist types. Perhaps it's because they're so far away and you don't get to see anything to be jealous of.

This was the first I'd really heard of Buddhism and I can really see why it appeals to Atheists. It was a two hour, mm, perhaps not a documentary more and introduction to Buddhism on PBS.

There's nothing really all that supernatural about it, I'd even consider going to some Buddhist meetings to learn more it seems really interesting.

hairybowsie

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't see how church would really make the world a better place, nothing happens at church, people go in and listen to ancient dogma then have a chat outside and either go home or too the pub. There's no discussion, which probably did happen when the church started initially.

imho, there is value in some sort of organised discussion forum with a set of values that are close promoting goodness over greed. Had more of a revolutionary fundamental church in mind (like the early church as you mentioned)

Why emphasis that point, what does it matter? I watched a documentary on the Buddha at the weekend and found it a very good spiritual way of life. It focuses on the here and now, be good now and reap the rewards now the possibility of an afterlife shouldn't be needed.

when i said "hope" I was trying to disarm the whole dogmatic view of religion of believing something which requires .. well a huge leap of ..
I think by saying "Death is not the end - we hope/we think" might be a more plausible beginning than pretending to know the answer to eternal life. Anyway .. wasn't cornering the markets for christians .. think buddhism is a very good spiritual way of life too if that is the way someone wants to go.

The Devil.

recylingbin wrote: »

I don't know anyone my age, or younger, who goes to mass. Apart from weddings, funerals, christenings and, maybe, christmas day.
Do you think participation in religion will shrink to levels of 15% or under when our parents generation die out?

Yes, yes it will.

Openmp

smellslikeshoes wrote: »

Makes perfect sense to me, Buddhists don't go out to shove their beliefs down the throats of other people.

Christians have been evangelising since the year dot. Have you not got used to it yet? lol. Seeing as atheism is so great, would you not go and set up a Scientific Truth Foundation or something? Can you not convice a couple of million Irish atheists to put their money where their (very big) mouth is? Or are you waiting for "the government" to provide for you? Oh wait, you can't organise because ye don't believe in hierarchies and can't agree on anything because it would just turn into a bitter "I know better" shouting match. lol.

Openmp

ScumLord wrote: »

This was the first I'd really heard of Buddhism and I can really see why it appeals to Atheists. It was a two hour, mm, perhaps not a documentary more and introduction to Buddhism on PBS.

There's nothing really all that supernatural about it, I'd even consider going to some Buddhist meetings to learn more it seems really interesting.

Lol. How naive you are my dear boy. Methinks you've been spending far too much time reading secular media.

Go down to you local church and smell the lovely flowers. Sure the priest may even invite you in for a cup of tea. And if you ask nicely, he won't even mention the divine.