Will religion, in Ireland, die out?

smokingman

Openmp wrote: »

The highest faculties of human intelligence and reasoning of this world are not to be found in the pursuit of primordial pleasures.

Pleasures such as eternal ones found in "heaven"?

Openmp

ScumLord wrote: »

Yes, although at the time the church probably had more power than these people making them subordinates. How many of these Gardai, politicians and public servants are still in office. Mostly they made mistakes, they didn't take action, the priest raped children and the church created a place where they could get away with it. We can change our government but we have no say in the church.

"But I was only acting under orders, your honour" said the officers at the Nuremberg trials as they were led out in front of the firing squad, or into their dungeon to rot for the rest of their lives.

GLaDOS

Openmp wrote: »

"But I was only acting under orders, your honour" said the officers at the Nuremberg trials as they were led out in front of the firing, or into their dungeon to rot for the rest of their lives.

Why would they be speaking English?

Openmp

Fishie wrote: »

They're certainly not found in the pursuit of religion either

You should go visit the Vatican some time. You'd love it. You'd soon see how culturally and intellectually inferior this little island on the periphery of Europe is. In fact, you should preach your atheist dogma while your over there and see how many intellectuals you can entice from their studies.

Openmp

Fishie wrote: »

Er, what? So atheism is "afraid to hold and document an opinion that can be held up to scrutiny" - what about religion? Religion doesn't hold up to scrutiny, there is absolutely no falsifiable evidence of the existence of any gods

Oh look! What have we here... Yes, a Jesus denier.

With such profound insight, I'm surprised you haven't set up some sect in the Arizona desert yet.

ItsAWindUp

Openmp wrote: »

You should go visit the Vatican some time. You'd love it. You'd soon see how culturally and intellectually inferior this little island on the periphery of Europe is. In fact, you should preach your atheist dogma while your over there and see how many intellectuals you can entice from their studies.

I've heard the Vatican is lovely, places built of solid marble filled with priceless art and other items, while the Church claims to be underfunded, endangered, and is forever collecting money. How anyone could give money towards the church after seeing the Vatican is beyond me.

Scarinae

Openmp wrote: »

You should go visit the Vatican some time. You'd love it. You'd soon see how culturally and intellectually inferior this little island on the periphery of Europe is. In fact, you should preach your atheist dogma while your over there and see how many intellectuals you can entice from their studies.

I have been to the Vatican, and I thought it was beautiful. The architecture, the art, the history... However, I am also aware that all these riches have been paid for with money collected from Catholics all across the world, may of whom were and are very poor. The rebuilding of St Peter's Basilica was partly financed by indulgences, and the collecting of money in this way was one of the factors that sparked off the Reformation in Germany

Abrasax

Leviticus 20:13 - "If a man lies with a man as one lies with a woman, both of them have done what is detestable. They must be put to death; their blood will be on their own heads."

Thank you for doing so much to educate people regarding God’s Law. I have learned a great deal from your show, and try to share that knowledge with as many people as I can. When someone tries to defend the homosexual lifestyle, for example, I simply remind them that Leviticus 18:22 clearly states it to be an abomination… End of debate.
I do need some advice from you, however, regarding some other elements of God’s Laws and how to follow them.
1. Leviticus 25:44 states that I may possess slaves, both male and female, provided they are purchased from neighboring nations. A friend of mine claims that this applies to Mexicans, but not Canadians. Can you clarify? Why can’t I own Canadians?
2. I would like to sell my daughter into slavery, as sanctioned in Exodus 21:7. In this day and age, what do you think would be a fair price for her?
3. I know that I am allowed no contact with a woman while she is in her period of menstrual uncleanliness – Lev.15: 19-24. The problem is how do I tell? I have tried asking, but most women take offense.
4. When I burn a bull on the altar as a sacrifice, I know it creates a pleasing odor for the Lord – Lev.1:9. The problem is, my neighbors. They claim the odor is not pleasing to them. Should I smite them?
5. I have a neighbor who insists on working on the Sabbath.Exodus 35:2. clearly states he should be put to death. Am I morally obligated to kill him myself, or should I ask the police to do it?
6. A friend of mine feels that even though eating shellfish is an abomination – Lev. 11:10, it is a lesser abomination than homosexuality. I don’t agree. Can you settle this? Are there ‘degrees’ of abomination?
7. Lev. 21:20 states that I may not approach the altar of God if I have a defect in my sight. I have to admit that I wear reading glasses. Does my vision have to be 20/20, or is there some wiggle- room here?
8. Most of my male friends get their hair trimmed, including the hair around their temples, even though this is expressly forbidden by Lev. 19:27. How should they die?
9. I know from Lev. 11:6-8 that touching the skin of a dead pig makes me unclean, but may I still play football if I wear gloves?
10. My uncle has a farm. He violates Lev.19:19 by planting two different crops in the same field, as does his wife by wearing garments made of two different kinds of thread (cotton/polyester blend). He also tends to curse and blaspheme a lot. Is it really necessary that we go to all the trouble of getting the whole town together to stone them? Lev.24:10-16. Couldn’t we just burn them to death at a private family affair, like we do with people who sleep with their in-laws? (Lev. 20:14)
I know you have studied these things extensively and thus enjoy considerable expertise in such matters, so I am confident you can help. Thank you again for reminding us that God’s word is eternal and unchanging.
Your adoring fan.
James M. Kauffman, Ed.D. Professor Emeritus Dept. of Curriculum,
Instruction, and Special Education University of Virginia

...

Calibos

I love how some mo...people here are saying that atheism is just a cool fad and atheists are simply succumbing to peer pressure. Ironic given that this is the numero uno reason that religion has survived into the enlightened 20/21st centuries.

Science has removed 99.9% of the God of the gaps, ie explained all phenomena formerly attributed to a God. The only reason religion still exists is that science cannot know/prove definitively what happens after death and people fear death and want an answer that science cannot provide. Science has the morals to say, "We don't know", but people would prefer someone to make **** up to reassure them. The biggy is peer pressure, pure and simple. That old chestnut called the appeal to authority. Billions of people can't be wrong. Well billions of children believe in Santa Claus.

While science can't say definately what happens after death and thus doesn't say anything, I think its not a huge jump to conclude that when I die, it will 'feel' like the other 15 billions years before I was born, ie. Nothing!! That doesn't depress me or make my life feel like its not worth living, it makes me feel energised to fill my life with meaning because its the only shot at existence I will have.

I don't doubt that there are a lot of teens who are atheist not because they put any thought into it but just to be 'cool' like their mates. Even if most of us started down the road to atheism that way, I don't think it lessens the firm intellectual ground we stand on. Think of it as the period that loosened religions grip on our minds, made us more open to actually listening to the valid arguements against belief rather than putting our hands over our ears and shouting lalala like the religious. There might be 16 year olds who are atheist for no other reason than their mates are. Some might drift back into religiion after there rebelious teens are over but I guarantee you that there is no athiest older than their early 20's who still disbelieve for faddish reasons. All will have moved on after putting some thought into it to true disbelief as it were.

Scarinae

Openmp wrote: »

Oh look! What have we here... Yes, a Jesus denier.

With such profound insight, I'm surprised you haven't set up some sect in the Arizona desert yet.

Well I'm glad that you used such a well thought-out argument to convince me of your point of view. I'll say it again - there is no evidence that god exists, so how can you say that atheists are "afraid to hold and document an opinion that can be held up for scrutiny"? Don't use an argument against someone if it is actually more applicable to what you are saying

johnnyjb

Openmp wrote: »

You should go visit the Vatican some time. You'd love it. You'd soon see how culturally and intellectually inferior this little island on the periphery of Europe is. In fact, you should preach your atheist dogma while your over there and see how many intellectuals you can entice from their studies.

So you worship or hold the Vatican in high esteem, you must be sent from hell. Is this the vatican that openly condems gays, non believers but would be willing to accept their monies if they walked into a church on sunday. You are winning a losing battle.

Your the kid that liked to be different at school and are just trying to have an arguement to entertain your self. Im bidding good bye cause im not wasting my time replying to totall nonsense. Good luck with mass and hope you finally get ordained. All bow before chuck norris the true master

ScumLord

Openmp wrote: »

"But I was only acting under orders, your honour" said the officers at the Nuremberg trials as they were led out in front of the firing squad, or into their dungeon to rot for the rest of their lives.

That's a part of life, humans have a hierarchy like any other social animal, they've done tests that shown people will follow all sorts of orders from people they think are in charge.

Openmp wrote: »

You should go visit the Vatican some time. You'd love it. You'd soon see how culturally and intellectually inferior this little island on the periphery of Europe is. In fact, you should preach your atheist dogma while your over there and see how many intellectuals you can entice from their studies.

The Vatican is an amazing feat of human engineering. There are thousands of examples of the amazing things humans are capable of. They been built by all types of cultures and I wouldn't rate the Vatican as the best of them.

cypharius

Openmp wrote: »

Do you even know the Catholic Church's stance on "doomsday"?

Yes. Do you have a point to make?

Calibos

I really pity the likes of Openmp. He comes in here talking like he has the intellectual high ground, when tbh even with binoculars I can't see him down the bottom of the grand canyon.....[created in the great flood circa 5000bc]

cypharius

Calibos wrote: »

I really pity the likes of Openmp. He comes in here talking like he has the intellectual high ground, when tbh even with binoculars I can't see him down the bottom of the grand canyon.....[created in the great flood circa 5000bc]

It's called trolling.

Nodin

Openmp wrote: »

You should go visit the Vatican some time. You'd love it. You'd soon see how culturally and intellectually inferior this little island on the periphery of Europe is.

Yes, the Vatican - in beautiful Rome.....a tiny place protected by men in tights carrying pikes, populated by aging celibates, known for its protection of paedophiles....That'll put in him his place all right.

Scarinae

Calibos wrote: »

I really pity the likes of Openmp. He comes in here talking like he has the intellectual high ground, when tbh even with binoculars I can't see him down the bottom of the grand canyon.....[created in the great flood circa 5000bc]

23rd October 4004BC, like the rest of the world... Unless the Grand Canyon was an afterthought?

cypharius

Nodin wrote: »

Yes, the Vatican - in beautiful Rome.....a tiny place protected by men in tights carrying pikes, populated by aging celibates, known for its protection of paedophiles....That'll put in him his place all right.

You forgot all those scientific studies they released. And they're at the forfront of computer software! Our pathetic Havok engine is nothing compared to uh...

Stercus Accidit

cypharius wrote: »

You forgot all those scientific studies they released. And they're at the forfront of computer software! Our pathetic Havok engine is nothing compared to uh...

Does the earth look round to you?

The devil needs to be kept at bay, only the queen spider of the vatican can telepathically forward gods will to Ratzinger.

philologos

Said user now has "Banned" under his name.

Just to bring this back on topic, do people seriously think that Christianity is going to vanish globally, as well as just on an Irish level? If so, what makes you think this?

happytime

god help us computer-literate types

when the masses are set free from the moral bindings which have been carefully wound around them over thousands of years by our black-clothed ones

ScumLord

Jakkass wrote: »

Said user now has "Banned" under his name.

Just to bring this back on topic, do people seriously think that Christianity is going to vanish globally, as well as just on an Irish level? If so, what makes you think this?

I think people just have to admit science is the best explanation and method we have of understanding the universe. It's tried and tested and works, it gives real, straightforward answers. When any religion conflicts with the output of science without evidence then that religion will lose. People need science more than they need Gods.

I don't think religion will completely disappear. I'd prefer it to change and drop the ancient dogma. I think religion/spirituality has a place, our brains are geared for that type of thinking, it has a benefit and I don't see why it has to conflict with science.

Noffles

I'd rather it went the route of Scientology and the likes, something to be laughed at and prodded when the "celebrities" join it... then it would be a far better thing... rather than the interfering shower of ****ers that they are now!!

cypharius

Noffles wrote: »

I'd rather it went the route of Scientology and the likes, something to be laughed at and prodded when the "celebrities" join it... then it would be a far better thing... rather than the interfering shower of ****ers that they are now!!

Most scientologists aren't stupid, just desperatly depressed. Scientology is no laughing matter.

philologos

ScumLord wrote: »

I think people just have to admit science is the best explanation and method we have of understanding the universe. It's tried and tested and works, it gives real, straightforward answers. When any religion conflicts with the output of science without evidence then that religion will lose. People need science more than they need Gods.

What makes you think its science vs religion all the time. Many of us, myself included think that science is a field that we should look at enthusiastically as to how the universe was formed, and how we are the way we are. There isn't a competition for me, both are describing different aspects of the same thing, our existence.

ScumLord wrote: »

I don't think religion will completely disappear. I'd prefer it to change and drop the ancient dogma. I think religion/spirituality has a place, our brains are geared for that type of thinking, it has a benefit and I don't see why it has to conflict with science.

Dropping the ancient dogma, I assume you mean, just doing away with the Bible? - I personally think its one of the greatest strengths of Christianity that they rely heavily on it, and on past encounters that people have had wiuth God.

I don't see why it has to conflict either. Indeed, I don't believe it does!

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

Said user now has "Banned" under his name.

Just to bring this back on topic, do people seriously think that Christianity is going to vanish globally, as well as just on an Irish level? If so, what makes you think this?

I don't think it is going to vanish Jakkass but I do think the number of believers will be a tiny fraction of what they are now. Why? Individual religions are no longer either excessively persecuted or given carte blanch from criticism and information is more accsesible than ever before.

I know you will contest this but as far as I can see for the first time in recent history religiosity is the minority belief amongst 18-30 year olds. Not just in Ireland, I have noticed this amongst my peers from all "first world" countries, all developed western nations. Without parents passing a particular religion onto their children it just makes sense that the numbers will plummet. I think the effect will build momentum from generation to generation.

There will always always be believers. I mean there are people out there that genuinly believe that the horoscope in the Sun newspaper can predict their future, no belief ever totally vanishes. But organised religion as a common human belief is done.

Noffles

cypharius wrote: »

Most scientologists aren't stupid, just desperatly depressed. Scientology is no laughing matter.

Never said they were stupid and said it was laughable when celebrities joined it.

philologos

strobe wrote: »

I know you will contest this but as far as I can see for the first time in recent history religiosity is the minority belief amongst 18-30 year olds. Not just in Ireland, I have noticed this amongst my peers from all "first world" countries, all developed western nations. Without parents passing a particular religion onto their children it just makes sense that the numbers will plummet. I think the effect will build momentum from generation to generation.

Globally, that is false. In much of Europe, and certain areas of North America, you're correct.

However, in China, much of the Far East, central Asia, Africa, South America and other such countries the opposite is true.

I would agree with Alister McGrath, that atheism rises and falls throughout history, this just happens to be one of those high times where we are.

Today alone, 15,000 people will come to believe in Christianity.

This is the reality, we're just going to have to learn to live together. It's a shame we can't really get around to discussing the practicalities of this without someone proclaiming the end of religion.

Such proclamations by Friedrich Nietzsche and others throughout the last two centuries haven't materialised.

strobe wrote: »

There will always always be believers. I mean there are people out there that genuinly believe that the horoscope in the Sun newspaper can predict their future, no belief ever totally vanishes. But religion as a common human belief is done.

I don't think it has ever been a common human belief. Rather there have always been adherents, and those who don't adhere. There tend to be high times for both camps in certain areas of the world.

dvpower

Jakkass wrote: »

Today alone, 15,000 people will come to believe in Christianity.

No. Most of these will just be born to parents who have previously come to believe in Christianity.

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

Globally, that is false. In much of Europe, and certain areas of North America, you're correct.

However, in China, much of the Far East, central Asia, Africa, South America and other such countries the opposite is true.

I did go out of my way to state I was talking about developed western nations. Poverty and oppression feed desperation and desperation is essential to the propogation of religion.

Herb Powell

Openmp wrote: »

You atheists won't put your hand in your pocket to support your beliefs. Nor are you willing to organise. Probably because ye can't agree on anything, because you believe in nothing. lol. The Church has billions of dollars of assets and over 1.1 billion followers. You have a bunch of embittered live-for-the-moment consumer types interlinked on the interweb whose sole purpose in life is to maximise pleasure and minimise pain. One self gratificatious act after another. Now, if only we could get Science to figure out how to make us all immortal. lol.

o

Joey the lips

dvpower wrote: »

No. Most of these will just be born to parents who have previously come to believe in Christianity.

How did you come to that opinion....?

philologos

strobe wrote: »

I did go out of my way to state I was talking about developed western nations. Poverty and oppression feed desperation and desperation is essential to the propogation of religion.

How does one account for South Korea which has seen Christianity grow to roughly 30% of the population in 50 years.

Also, we could get into case by case stuff here which mightn't be that fruitful. However, how do you account for people in the West who continue to believe in Christianity, they are hardly doing so for the reason of poverty, oppression, and desperation.

strobe

Jakkass wrote: »

How does one account for South Korea which has seen Christianity grow to roughly 30% of the population in 50 years.

I don't account for it. It is a mystery to me man. I'm not familiar with the situation.

Also, we could get into case by case stuff here which mightn't be that fruitful. However, how do you account for people in the West who continue to believe in Christianity, they are hardly doing so for the reason of poverty, oppression, and desperation.

Is it not fairly well accepted that strong religious belief is higher amongst poorer communities in the West, say in America for example?

philologos

strobe wrote: »

Is it not fairly well accepted that strong religious belief is higher amongst poorer communities in the West, say in America for example?

It's interesting, as most Christians (around my age for the most part, but quite a few older than I as well) I have encountered seem to be middle class.

Likewise, I wouldn't even be so certain about the USA in that respect.

dvpower: So I assume that most people who convert to faiths, just secretly have Christian parents somewhere too?

I'm referring to those who come to believe in Christianity in regions where it isn't as prevalent as it is here. In fact it is funny that the region of the world where there is a net decline, is probably the region where most people have Christian parents to begin with!

Son Of A Vidic

The sooner Rome and the tentacles of it's hypocritical empire disappear from this country the better.

Agricola

I dont think religion will die out for two main reasons. Humans are not completely logical beings. Cold hard facts coupled with a desire to acquire more cold hard facts, arent enough to sustain the majority of people on this planet.
As long as people will continue to hope that theres something "better" waiting for them once they croak and as long as they require the comfort that religious beliefs give them during hard times, like the death of a family member, there will always be a place for religion......Im sorry to say.


Maybe in the distant future, if we've reached a sort of utopian society where the ancient babblings of middle-eastern peasants arent taken seriously anymore, then we will be free of religion.

Mars Bar

You know why Catholicism won't die out in Ireland?!

Because girls want their big lavish white wedding in a church.

My cousin was saying that her and her boyfriend looked into it and if they want to get married, they have to attend a course and a certain amount of masses before they can! :eek:

She only ever goes to Church if she really has to...

Me? I don't think I'd be too bothered about having the big white wedding. I'm sure Daddy will be delighted to hear that!

Hank_Jones

mars bar wrote: »

You know why Catholicism won't die out in Ireland?!

Because girls want their big lavish white wedding in a church.

My cousin was saying that her and her boyfriend looked into it and if they want to get married, they have to attend a course and a certain amount of masses before they can! :eek:

She only ever goes to Church if she really has to...

Me? I don't think I'd be too bothered about having the big white wedding. I'm sure Daddy will be delighted to hear that!

Bahahaha attend a number of masses.
I would never get married in a church, ever.

I keep on trying to remember if I filled out stuff for countmeout, I think I did.
Might just do it again to be on the safe side.

Mars Bar

Hank_Jones wrote: »

Bahahaha attend a number of masses.
I would never get married in a church, ever.

I keep on trying to remember if I filled out stuff for countmeout, I think I did.
Might just do it again to be on the safe side.

Exactly my response!

Kivaro

The-Rigger wrote: »

Maybe it will be viewed the same way as many people nowadays would view our ancestors who used to worship the sun, hilarious.

Though, comparatively I think worshipping the sun at least has some degree sort of merit and logic.

From Thomas Jefferson - one of the Founding Fathers (no, he was not a priest) of the U.S.:

And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerve in the brain of Jupiter. But may we hope that the dawn of reason and freedom of thought in these United States will do away with this artificial scaffolding, and restore to us the primitive and genuine doctrines of this most venerated reformer of human errors.

-Thomas Jefferson, Letter to John Adams, April 11, 1823

Unfortunately, the "People" have yet to figure out the fable.

Ruu_Old

I, doubt it, to be, very honest.

Tar.Aldarion

It will take ages but it should do yeah. Take quite a time before such stupid beliefs to die out but then again humans have a long way to go.

orourkeda

People say that they wont practice but the closer they get to dying the closer they'll get to religion.

orourkeda

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

It will take ages but it should do yeah. Take quite a time before such stupid beliefs to die out but then again humans have a long way to go.

What makes you think you know better?

Seeing as these are " such stupid beliefs " would you care to explain what exactly happens to us when we die and what makes you so sure.

Tar.Aldarion

lol

dr.bollocko

As soon as you begin to accept how arbitrary the concepts of any of the major religions are it becomes increasingly difficult to tolerate communications with those who do hold such beliefs.
Analogous to this is the problem of it being impossible to talk about atheism as an atheist without sounding arrogant.

Magill

No, there will always be believers, nothing wrong with that really. There is still alot of good that comes from the church, its just a shame that the roots are so rotten.

Its not religion thats the problem, Its always been the people in charge.

Skinback

recylingbin wrote: »

I don't know anyone my age, or younger, who goes to mass. Apart from weddings, funerals, christenings and, maybe, christmas day.
Do you think participation in religion will shrink to levels of 15% or under when our parents generation die out?

never....too many people need it whether it's true or not.

orourkeda

dr.bollocko wrote: »

As soon as you begin to accept how arbitrary the concepts of any of the major religions are it becomes increasingly difficult to tolerate communications with those who do hold such beliefs.
Analogous to this is the problem of it being impossible to talk about atheism as an atheist without sounding arrogant.

While you may consider it arbitrary to believe in the major concepts of a major religion atheists are not and cannot be in a position to know any better than those who practice or believe in religion.