Felipe Massa

quarryman

Questions about Massa's performance since the start of the season. You have to wonder if Ferrari are debating his ability since the accident last year.

BBC article

Ferrari to investigate Felipe Massa's performance

Ferrari are to launch an investigation into Felipe Massa's performance following his continuing struggles alongside team-mate Fernando Alonso.
The Spanish Grand Prix was the fourth consecutive race at which the Brazilian has been well off Alonso's pace.
Team principal Stefano Domenicali said: "We have to make sure the car is one he feels confident driving. For the first time this weekend it was not the case.
"It is important to go back and see what we have done around Felipe's car."
Massa matched Alonso for pace at the first race of the season in Bahrain, which Alonso won from his team-mate.
But since then Massa has been several 10ths of a second behind the double world champion, who is rapidly emerging as Ferrari's de facto number one driver.

Alonso delighted with 'perfect' race (UK users only)

The 29-year-old said he did not understand why he was struggling to keep pace.
"Fernando is a very good driver but something has happened to me," Massa said.
"Something is not going like I want, so I can't do the lap time or drive the car like I want.
"This is something that we need to understand, and improve.
"It looks like something is not working out to give the grip. This is something that we need to understand, but I'm sure we will."
Until Spain, Ferrari's car was the second fastest in Formula 1 behind Red Bull, but the Italian team slipped behind McLaren on competitiveness in Barcelona.
Alonso and Domenicali both said the team were lacking aerodynamic downforce
And Domenicali admitted that while Massa had been complaining about the performance of his car, that had also been the case with Alonso.
"Felipe started to complain about the level of grip of the car from the beginning and that never happened (before)," Domenicali commented.
"To be honest, Fernando was also saying this."
Alonso is second in the championship, three points behind leader Jenson Button of McLaren, with Massa down in seventh, 21 points adrift.
Alonso lost points in the second race of the season in Australia because, after catching Massa following an early spin, he was unable to pass the Brazilian.
Alonso also spent the Malaysian GP stuck behind his team-mate despite being faster than him, and controversially passed him on the way into the pits in China to avoid the same thing happening for the third race in succession.
But Domenicali said it was too early to make Alonso the number one driver to ensure his title chances
Alonso added: "I'm happy with this position [in the championship], but as I said before, we need four or five podiums in a row.
"With one podium and then another three races with mistakes there is not enough to win the championship,
"But I think we understand, we know the problems, we know the mistakes we made at the beginning of the championship and we arrived in Barcelona with a very good approach, super Ferrari team.
"This weekend [we made] no mistakes at all: preparing for qualifying in practice in a good way, at the maximum of our potential in qualifying and a very solid race.

606: DEBATE
Will Massa be at Ferrari next season?
"Sometimes we know that we will be third, sometimes we know we will be fifth, sometimes we can maybe win the race, but we need to do our maximum and today or this weekend all the Ferrari team did the maximum so we are extremely happy with our job.
"There is a very aggressive plan of developing the car with some good gains and good improvements to come in the next races, so we are very optimistic on that.
"The championship is long. There will be some circuits where we will be closer to Red Bull and some circuits like this weekend where we know it's going to be more difficult.
"But overall, for the 19 races, I think we have a package, a car that can fight for the world championship which is the main goal."

amacachi

As I've said before, if Massa hadn't had that accident it would be Kimi and Alonso at Ferrari this season. I just think Alonso is getting much more out of the car than anyone other than maybe Hamilton could at the moment.

samsemtex

Massa was never that good imo. He is decent when out front but not particularly fast (as showed when he was destroyed by Schumacher. You don't go from being 0.6 seconds behind your team mate to being considered fast overnight), not good at overtaking, not good at coming back from adversity, not good in the wet, overall not very good.

I think a disinterested/lazy Kimi made Massa look a lot better than he was.

Frank Bullitt

Can see Kubica there next year,that will be a seriously strong Ferrari team if it happens.

supremenovice

samsemtex wrote: »

I think a disinterested/lazy Kimi made Massa look a lot better than he was.

You may have a point.
I think Alonso would have won the 2008 Championship easily if he had that Ferrari.

djimi

Ive never really gotten the Massa love in that seems to surround F1 at times. Of all the drivers that have been up or around the top of F1 in recent seasons, the likes of Hamilton, Button, Schumacher, Alonso, Kimi etc, Massa just doesnt seem to be up there with them in terms of performance. Hes a decent driver, dont get me wrong, and I know he came within seconds of winning the title a couple of years ago, but I just dont ever get the impression from watching him that he will ever really consistantly be a contender, and considering he is driving one of the best cars on the grid, thats not a good thing for him.

vincenzolorenzo

amacachi wrote: »

As I've said before, if Massa hadn't had that accident it would be Kimi and Alonso at Ferrari this season. I just think Alonso is getting much more out of the car than anyone other than maybe Hamilton could at the moment.

That was never going to happen in fairness. Raikkonen was terrible the last 2 years with Ferrari. He seemed to have lost all interest in racing. Ferrari couldn't wait to get rid of him. He would have been considered a better driver than Massa in the past but massa had the measure of him the last few years, no doubt

deadbloke

Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that Rob Smedley has to tell him to get a move on? I know that the team will try to encourage their drivers over the radio during a race, but it's a regular theme with these two.

I've got to agree with samsemtex, Kimi's I'd-rather-be-eating-ice-cream attitude flattered Massa.

amacachi

LIGHTNING wrote: »

If I was massa I`d be telling Smedley where to go, I am the one doing 190+mph on the track you berk!

Yet most of the time he can find extra pace when he's told, then drops off until he's told to get a move on again.

djimi

To be fair, from what you can hear from the radio communications anyway, Smedley is by a country mile the best crew chief (or whatever they call them in F1) around at the moment. He should be telling the driver where he could be picking up extra pace and helping him get past the guy in front.

EvilMonkey

deadbloke wrote: »

Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that Rob Smedley has to tell him to get a move on? I know that the team will try to encourage their drivers over the radio during a race, but it's a regular theme with these two.

I've got to agree with samsemtex, Kimi's I'd-rather-be-eating-ice-cream attitude flattered Massa.

Your sure that's not just the way Rob is, and he would be like that with any driver?

They kept Massa because he was much more integrated into the team than Kimi and he was getting better results than kimi in 08 and 09 until his accident.(although there wasint much between them)

Massa is fine he will win at least one race if not more this year and will be at Ferrari next year.

Ghost Train

I think Massa is good fast driver but needs everything working right for him to have a good race. Might find it tough getting a good drive if Ferrari let him go. But ferrari with Alonso mightn't want two top drivers. I suppose he be very similar to Rubens in his racing and would find a drive in a well funded team looking to get solid results

deadbloke

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Your sure that's not just the way Rob is, and he would be like that with any driver?

They kept Massa because he was much more integrated into the team than Kimi and he was getting better results than kimi in 08 and 09 until his accident.(although there wasint much between them)

Massa is fine he will win at least one race if not more this year and will be at Ferrari next year.

It's one thing to encourage a driver, but Rob sounds like he's a primary school teacher talking to a pupil. It's going to be very very difficult for Massa to win a race this year. There's 6 or 7 drivers who'd have to have bad luck for Massa to win.

As for keeping Massa over Kimi, I think it's safe to say that Kimi was more than happy to get a sizeable payoff and go see if ice cream tastes different in a Citroen.

EvilMonkey

Ghost Train wrote: »

I think Massa is good fast driver but needs everything working right for him to have a good race. Might find it tough getting a good drive if Ferrari let him go. But ferrari with Alonso mightn't want two top drivers. I suppose he be very similar to Rubens in his racing and would find a drive in a well funded team looking to get solid results

They have two top drivers, he is is one of the top 5 or 6 drivers in F1.
Kubica wouldn't do much more than Massa in the Ferrari.
I agree that he needs to have confidence in the car/setup or doesn't perform in a race as well as say Alonso or Hamilton would when struggling. Massa always gets better as the season goes on.

deadbloke wrote: »

It's one thing to encourage a driver, but Rob sounds like he's a primary school teacher talking to a pupil. It's going to be very very difficult for Massa to win a race this year. There's 6 or 7 drivers who'd have to have bad luck for Massa to win.

As for keeping Massa over Kimi, I think it's safe to say that Kimi was more than happy to get a sizeable payoff and go see if ice cream tastes different in a Citroen.

Like i said it could be just be Rob, Andrew Shovlin(i think) talking to Jenson last year(haven t really heard him talking to schui), or Hamilton's engineer sound like school teachers!
Massa winning is based on Ferrari getting their act together, If he gets on form on a track he likes he wont need anyone to have a bad day to win.

gigabit

I was impressed by Massa in 2008 but he does not seem to have that extra killer instinct that (in no particular order) Alonso, Hamilton, Vettel, Schu have in spades. These 4 have that ability to deliver time and again when the car is good or when it is sh1te. Alonso's drive in Malaysia was spectacular.

vectra

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

That was never going to happen in fairness. Raikkonen was terrible the last 2 years with Ferrari. He seemed to have lost all interest in racing. Ferrari couldn't wait to get rid of him. He would have been considered a better driver than Massa in the past but massa had the measure of him the last few years, no doubt

Car suited Massa better than id did Kimi.. That is what made Massa look good.
I said it before and I will say it again.
Massa is never going to be a champ.
He hasnt the goods to be one.

Roll on next year

Possible seat for Kimi in Red Bull

Slutmonkey57b

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Your sure that's not just the way Rob is, and he would be like that with any driver?

They kept Massa because he was much more integrated into the team than Kimi and he was getting better results than kimi in 08 and 09 until his accident.(although there wasint much between them)

Massa is fine he will win at least one race if not more this year and will be at Ferrari next year.

There are far too many occasions where you can hear the frustration in Rob's voice talking to Massa and telling him where he needs to hustle and find time. That's when the engineer knows his car could be going a few tenths faster, and the reason it isn't is solely what's behind the wheel. Similar to Jenson at Silverstone last year, he had to be told "you can catch Rosberg" before he believed it and pulled his pace up by something like a second and a half a lap - too late unfortunately. All race engineers do this to some extent with their drivers, giving them confidence in what they're doing in the car and helping them find more time from the data.

Conversely, there were plenty of times last year when Button was telling his engineers what to do, what was going on around him, where he was going to back off for traffic etc - you never get that with Massa, it's all one way. So if Rob isn't able to jolly Massa along, then that Ferrari is going backwards. I hope Rob is getting a decent wage out of Ferrari, because in all honesty he's at least half driving that car.

When people talking about Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso being the "top four" I think this is really where it comes down to - you'll hardly ever hear an engineer telling those guys to hustle. I think it was Malaysia this year when Ferrari got on the radio to babysit Alonso with some rubbish about what someone else was doing on track and he cut them off with "I don't want to hear about that." It's not necessarily the case that they're always faster than the likes of Webber, Button et al, but that there is one extra area of performance where they rely on themselves.

EvilMonkey

The question was whether Massa had lost speed since the accident and whether he will be at Ferrari next year.
Massa wasn't quicker than Schumacher, Vettel, Hamilton, Alonso before his crash so he is not going to be after it.
Rob was on the radio to Massa just as much as before, that's what works for them.
Rob was the same on the radio to Fisi and Badoer, not as close relationship, a lot more frustration and they didn't get quicker.

I said Massa is fine and will win a race and be at Ferrari next year, never said he was the best driver in F1 or anything.

frostie500

One thing that needs to be said about Massa is that he has improved more than any other driver in Formula 1 from when he came onto the grid. If you said to me when he started in 02 that he would be in a Ferrari by 06 and challenging for a wortld title in 08 I would have been sending for some white coats! Two years ago Massa was immense and last year-prior to the accident-he again outclassed Raikkonen. I know everyone says Kimi didnt care and put in no effort but Massa still soundly bet the man that was expected to take Schumacher's mantle as F1s top dog.

Massa hasn't set the world alight this year by any means but all the talk online has been about how unbelievably poor he has been in comparision to Alonso and that 'he's not the same driver since the crash.' He has been on the case all weekend in Monaco-just like Bahrain-and he didn't make mistakes in races while Alonso did in Melbourne.

One easy barometer for us all to gauge Massa is if he is thrashed by Alonso in Turkey in two weeks time. Massa has been immense there every year and if he is beaten by Alonso by a similar margin as in Spain questions will need to be asked about his ability to perform. There are only four other worldly, fast in any generation drivers in F1 right now-which is quite a lot compared to other times-and Massa is being beaten by one of them, how many drivers could Ferrari replace him with that could guarantee them a driver to challenge Alonso consistently?

amacachi

frostie500 wrote: »

One thing that needs to be said about Massa is that he has improved more than any other driver in Formula 1 from when he came onto the grid. If you said to me when he started in 02 that he would be in a Ferrari by 06 and challenging for a wortld title in 08 I would have been sending for some white coats! Two years ago Massa was immense and last year-prior to the accident-he again outclassed Raikkonen. I know everyone says Kimi didnt care and put in no effort but Massa still soundly bet the man that was expected to take Schumacher's mantle as F1s top dog.

Massa hasn't set the world alight this year by any means but all the talk online has been about how unbelievably poor he has been in comparision to Alonso and that 'he's not the same driver since the crash.' He has been on the case all weekend in Monaco-just like Bahrain-and he didn't make mistakes in races while Alonso did in Melbourne.

One easy barometer for us all to gauge Massa is if he is thrashed by Alonso in Turkey in two weeks time. Massa has been immense there every year and if he is beaten by Alonso by a similar margin as in Spain questions will need to be asked about his ability to perform. There are only four other worldly, fast in any generation drivers in F1 right now-which is quite a lot compared to other times-and Massa is being beaten by one of them, how many drivers could Ferrari replace him with that could guarantee them a driver to challenge Alonso consistently?

I expect Massa to beat Alonso in Turkey to be honest. For whatever reason it and Brazil are near enough the only tracks he excels at.
I'd say there may be more than 4 fast-on-any-generation drivers in F1 at the moment, but that's a side point. List of people I think would do a better job than Massa would be Hamilton, Kubica, Schumacher, Rosberg and Vettel, and there's a couple of other drivers I'd love to see one of the top teams take a punt on next season.

thegoth

Glad to see people here are seeing sense. For the last 18 months anytime I mentioned Massa in a negative way, almost everyone was saying, oh no. He has improved so much since Schmuacher retired......

However, if I was in Ferraris shoes, I'd leave Massa where he is. He is a good number 2. Let him carry on behind Alonso.

I am a big believer in having a number 1 and a number 2 driver.

Look at RedBull, if they had a clear number one, they would be further ahead than they are now. McLaren not having a number one cost them the 08 title. They have that solved now, with Lewis as number 1 has on a normal day, Jensen will be about .3 sec a lap behind him.

Putting Kubica or Webber in Ferrari with Alonso is madness in my view. They will take points of each other

EvilMonkey

Massa isn't too far off Alonso, and hasn't made any rookie mistakes like jumping the start or crashing in 3rd practice.
http://www.vivaf1.com/team_mates.php

Alonso has been very lucky at times this season boosting his points.
Webber taking out Hamilton who was putting Alonso under huge pressure in Australia.
After the jump start in China a safety car completely negates his drive through.
Hamilton's blowout and Vettels brakes in Spain bumping him into 2nd.
A safety car at the perfect time in Monaco to rescue his qualifying situation.

Button v Hamilton is interesting Button is slightly edging it, i didn't expect that after 6 races.

Slutmonkey57b

thegoth wrote: »

They have that solved now, with Lewis as number 1 has on a normal day, Jensen will be about .3 sec a lap behind him.

Putting Kubica or Webber in Ferrari with Alonso is madness in my view. They will take points of each other

Button's got 2 wins to Hamilton's None. Qualifying is 3-3. Strange that when Hamilton outqualifies Button by 2 or 3 tenths, it's "domination" of a weaker teammate. When the reverse happens, it's luck...

Agree with you on Massa though, Ferrari should keep him where he is. Kubica wouldn't benefit from going there either, he's doing a great job at Renault.

EvilMonkey

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Agree with you on Massa though, Ferrari should keep him where he is. Kubica wouldn't benefit from going there either, he's doing a great job at Renault.

I think Ferrari should stick with Massa and try and sign Vettel in a couple of years. I cant see anyone doing better than what Massa is currently doing if they have to play second fiddle to Alonso.

Kubica should build the Renault team around him with him as no 1 and not risk being no 2 at Ferrari, at least for another year or two and see how they progress with the car. Then maybe go for the big move if he is good enough.

thegoth

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Button's got 2 wins to Hamilton's None. Qualifying is 3-3. Strange that when Hamilton outqualifies Button by 2 or 3 tenths, it's "domination" of a weaker teammate. When the reverse happens, it's luck...

I'm no Lewis fan. I really like Button, but Button has had the luck of the green with his wins. Lewis had had much better races, but just not the results. Look at his overtaking. Mark my words, by the end of the season, Lewis will have Button has his number 2

Cookie_Monster

vectra wrote: »

Car suited Massa better than id did Kimi.. That is what made Massa look good.
I said it before and I will say it again.
Massa is never going to be a champ.

At this stage probably not. He should have at least one by now but I don' think he is likely to win one in the future

vectra wrote: »

He hasnt the goods to be one.

ah come on now, he missed it by one point. On the last corner of the last race of the year because Glock ****ed up. He could so easily have won that year.

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Kubica should build the Renault team around him with him as no 1 and not risk being no 2 at Ferrari, at least for another year or two and see how they progress with the car. Then maybe go for the big move if he is good enough.

Definitely, he could do very well at Renault. I expected them to be nowhere this year, yet they have been very strong. I'd expect at least one win out of them this year now.

Slutmonkey57b

thegoth wrote: »

I'm no Lewis fan. I really like Button, but Button has had the luck of the green with his wins. Lewis had had much better races, but just not the results. Look at his overtaking. Mark my words, by the end of the season, Lewis will have Button has his number 2

Melbourne was only lucky because Vettel retired, in that sense everyone on the grid is lucky Red Bull haven't had lights-to-flag 1-2's in every race, which is frankly what should have happened given the speed of their car. His choice of tyres and his handling of the tyres in borderline circumstances were fantastic. China was a brilliant, well earned win. Near the end of the race, up until he had a slide (and the tyres lost temperature) he was pulling away from Hamilton again, despite having much older tyres. In Malaysia, he was very close to pulling the same early pitstop advantage over Hamilton again, but missed on making the gap at Lewis's pitstop.

If you look at actual lap times on f1fanatic, the two are well matched for speed a lot of the time. "Marking everyone's words" before the start of the season, Button wasn't given a hope, and would be left a shivering wreck like Alonso was during his year at McLaren. Instead, it's Lewis who's looked uncertain, off pace, and unable to get results for most of the time so far. The rest of the season should be interesting for them.

amacachi

Only thing I was wrong about was qualifying, though I still fancy Hamilton to get the upper hand as the season progresses.

thegoth

I was one of them too and stand by it. By the end of the year, Lewis will have established himself as the dominant driver.

Good tyre call by Button, but he cant live on that much longer. Lewis has him in his sights. Lewis has momentum.

I think Button seems like the coolest guy in F1, but Lewis has him I fear

Slutmonkey57b

I'm not a believer that Button is the best, but I've been interested to watch him the past year and a bit since I started watching F1 again. He's a good lesson in how a driver's successes and failures aren't as obvious as they might first appear.

And Lewis is far from bulletproof, or always faster. More of a fighter, 100%. But not necessarily faster.

thegoth

I think that after a bit a bad look and having a bad weekend at the start of the season that Lewis has him now

Chopper888

Apparently Massa's manager has been speaking to Renault recently about a drive for him in 2011.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/160049/1/massa_opens_talks_with_renault__but_ferrari_remains_first_choice.html

EvilMonkey

Chopper888 wrote: »

Apparently Massa's manager has been speaking to Renault recently about a drive for him in 2011.

http://www.crash.net/f1/news/160049/1/massa_opens_talks_with_renault__but_ferrari_remains_first_choice.html

That's his job, he's been talking to Red Bull too.

Anyway

Ferrari team principal Stefano Domenicali says the Italian squad is set to retain Felipe Massa when his current contract ends.

http://www.autosport.com/news/report.php/id/83901