help with hardware synth MIDI set up

paulelectronica

i have the following Korg Micro Kontroll (connected with usb) nord lead rack , alesis io 26 and want to record the nord with cubase , ive tried several times but am getting nowhere , any help would be greatly appreciated.
Midi out of Kontroller to Midi in of Nord and Midi out of Nord to Midi in of alesis is what i have.

jtsuited

so where are you recording the audio?

paulelectronica

onto my laptop , have a firewire audio interface . at the moment im just recording with vst instruments into cubase

jtsuited

and where are you plugging the audio outs of your nord into?

paulelectronica

just have midi out of the nord into midi in of the audio interface ,

jtsuited

and there be your problem.

paulelectronica

what way should i be setting it up please and thanks for your help .

jtsuited

paulelectronica wrote: »

what way should i be setting it up please and thanks for your help .

ok don't take this the wrong way but you want to record the audio from your nord into your daw yeah?

right now you've only set it up to record midi.

edit for a quick answer. plug the audio from your nord into your interface. not the midi. the audio.

paulelectronica

Will do thanks again for the help

Quiggers

for future reference, midi is just a list of commands, note on, note off, pitch bend etc.

paulelectronica

i had the midi set up alright and was getting midi signal on the 3 devices and laptop but no audio.

Hayte

It helps to explain the concepts first.

MIDI is control data. When you have the MIDI output from your soundcard connected to the MIDI input on your Nord and then you do something like paint C and D notes in the piano roll and press play then your DAW triggers a bunch of MIDI messages that get sent to your Nord and tell it to play (for example):

note on C4
timing clock
timing clock
timing clock
note off C4
note on D4
timing clock
timing clock
note off D4
all notes off
reset pan cc10=0
reset volume cc7=0

So that bunch of crap above is your DAW telling your synth to play C for x amount of time then release C and play D for x amount of time and then release all notes, reset panning to centre and turn the volume down to zero.

You can send this kind of data both ways so step by step:

1) To be able to send/receive MIDI messages you need to connect the MIDI IN port on your soundcard to the MIDI OUT port on your Nord. Then you connect the MIDI OUT port on your soundcard to the MIDI IN port on your Nord.

2) You need to designate this port a unique number in your DAW. It can be any number but it must be unique. I usually use 1.

3) A single MIDI port can be divided into 16 channels. You can do alot of very cool stuff by channelizing MIDI but by default, most devices are set to send/receive MIDI messages via channel 1. Make sure that your Nord and your DAW are set to send/receive on channel 1.

4) To get sound you need to connect the Left and Right line outputs on the back of your synth to 2x line inputs on your soundcard. So the way this is set up is as follows:

i) You press a C key on your Nord and release it after 1 second.
ii) Your synth sends this control data to your DAW which records it on a piano roll.
iii) This control data can be sent back to the Nord so it can play the exact same thing without you having to touch the keyboard.
iv) Nord receives the instruction to play C for 1 second and generates an audio signal which gets sent out of the line outs on the back of the synth.
v) this audio signal goes into your soundcard line in, goes through your software mixer and can be routed to a mixer channel in your DAW where you can listen to it and/or record it.

5) If you have the cables wired properly (the easy bit) then you have to make sure that your DAW is configured properly so that it can send/receive MIDI correctly on the correct port and channel and so it can receive audio through the correct mixer channel.

If you have lots of MIDI controllable hardware then you daisy chain them from MIDI Thru to MIDI IN but the longer the chain the more you start to get weird sync and timing issues so if you have tonnes of hardware you probably want to get a MIDI interface which is a rackmountable module with loads of MIDI ports, each with 16 channels and when you run into sync issues you just split a long MIDI chain through 1x port into shorter chains spread over multiple ports.

The way you do this is different in every DAW and I don't use Cubase so maybe some Cubase guru can explain how that works in SX.

If you want to go super deep into MIDI you need to get MIDI OX and setup Yoke junctions which lets you do all sorts of crazy stuff like splitting a MIDI keyboard into multiple zones so (for example) you can play a different synth in every octave range (so if you have a 5 octave keyboard you tell your MIDI keyboard to send/receive note information from 5 separate channels and define the channel range with MIDI note numbers). You can also use MIDI OX to do things like turn a Nintendo Wiimote into a theramin like device by using Glovepie to convert a bluetooth signal into MIDI messages which can then be routed through a Yoke junction (a sort of 'virtual' MIDI port) and used to control a synthesizer.

paulelectronica

Thanks alot for that explanation , it really makes sense now . going to set it up that way now shortly , thanks again

PMI

Also try and use Thru as much as poss as some outs have to be configured etc.. and can be assigned to various things where as a thru sends out directly the same as what is arriving at the midi in

Especially when you have a PC/Mac doing all the leg work

madtheory

Just do what jtsuited said...

Nords are lovely, you lucky lad. It actually has four audio outputs, so once you've got your head around the audio hookup, go figure out "multitimbral operation" and you can have four different sounds going at once. Great fun.

PMI wrote: »

Also try and use Thru as much as poss as some outs have to be configured etc.. and can be assigned to various things where as a thru sends out directly the same as what is arriving at the midi in

Especially when you have a PC/Mac doing all the leg work

Jayzus, don't confuse the poor lad! I had trouble following that meself! IMO it's easier to have each device on its own MIDI i/o especially if you want to load in patches downloaded from the web, or back up your own.

jtsuited

it's gas, because i was teaching a midi module there a few weeks back, and for practical use, you need to know feck all about midi these days.
Just plug the stuff together and you should get a sound. If you don't, then you need to understand it properly.

I find I can understand midi all the way down to it's hex fundamentals, but as soon as I see mention of cc's, program changes,etc, in anything my brain just goes 'fcuk this, do something else'. Ridiculous really considering how simple it is if you just think about it.

I guess I'm a poster-boy for this new generation of Attention Defecit Disorder kids who have been spoilt by technology.

madtheory

LOL! It's going to be a while yet before we have technology without trouble, so we gotta keep on learnin'!

Laserface

teh lolz @ jtsuited..
i hear you

this thread is funny..
the original poster's "problem" is becoming more and more frequent with people.

personally i use more hardware than software these days as i personally find it much more flxible..and involves much less mindnumbing rubbish.

another problem constantly rearing it's ugly head are these usb mixers. you should be shot if you buy one.
and its another fine example of the industry taking the piss.
"hey..if we make this...people will buy it because it'll sound techy & cool to own one". Whereas they are completely pointless gimmick gadgets without any real use at all... besides giving people numerous more campatibilty & latency issues to learn...
& all in the name of compressed digital audio. Yay!

paulelectronica

if i want to play notes from the rack through the micro kontroll do i do this within my daw >

Laserface

depends on what exactly you are trying to accomplish in the end?

you could play the notes from the rack hardware synth...into a micro kontroll (midi controller)...and have the micro kontroll control use those notes to control a vst synth. yes

but in the name of god, why?

why not just play the notes from the rack...record that straight into your song through your laptops line in...Job done
and then you'll have
A. a nice juicy analogue uncompressed fat synthline
B. not wasted your money on a nice synth, just to put it through a midi controller..which controls a software vst.

Hayte

A good midi setup is ridiculously useful. Its gotten to the point where I dont want any gear that doesn't have full midi because I cant zone it on my keyboard and I cant filter or transform midi messages to automate tasks that I want to do in realtime but don't have enough hands for.

If you go deep into it you can do mental things like zone off a keyboard so that 3 or 4 different synths are playing in different octaves. You can overlap zones so it works like a multitimbral mode except that its not just one synthesizer in multi mode but 3 or 4 synthesizers in single or multi mode.

you can transform some of the messaging too so that you can tell all synths to trigger pitch -> lfo on aftertouch but split the keyboard into 3 zones which overlap (on midi channel 1, 2 and 3) and then transform the pitch -> lfo message to pitch -> cutoff on channel 2 so your synths on channel 1 & 3 vibrato when you push down on the keybed but the second layer opens the filter instead. That way you can get some crazy modulation going that would take 3 pairs of hands to do live but you can do it with one hand.

You can use MIDI OX to fix weird bugs that make your life hell by filtering out certain midi messages which cause problems. Like I used to have this problem where one of my synths had terrible midi implementation. CC10 (panning) was programmed as a unipolar value (0 to 127) instead of bipolar (-64 to +64) and designed to control a panning LFO so that when I pressed stop/start on my DAW transport, it would reset the LFO to 64 so it bounces the sound left and right until you manually turn it down to 0 again.

Fixed it with MIDI OX by filtering all CC10 messages from my DAW on channel 1, port 1. So as long as that synth is always on channel 1, port 1, it wont respond to panning controllers at all. Alternatively you can filter it so that it does respond to panning but resets the LFO to 0 on allnoteoff and note on.

The other thing I've started to do is to program dashboards for some of my synths with a full MIDI CC list which basically turns them into softsynths with a graphical user interface in FL Studio and everything. Then I can make a remote template for it on the Virus so that I can play, program, record and automate everything on that synth straight off the Virus keyboard. It means that I can basically kick that other synth into the closet and save some space because I never need to touch it again other than to turn it on and off.

paulelectronica

thats impressive

loko90210

Hey guys, this thread is really interesting.

So I got my Nord Rack 2x last night and I can't wait to set it up properly. Went into town and got the midi cables. This is my first piece of HW gear so really excited.

I am using;

Ableton (My DAW)
M-audio KeyRig 25 (USB keyboard)
M-audio 8 Soundcard (Midi In/out + line in etc)
Nord Rack 2x (Midi In/Out + Line Out etc)


I have the ouput of the Nord rack going into 'Line 5/6' on the sound card. In ableton I have selected 'Line 5/6' and I can hear the Nord when I trigger a sound using the trigger button (Happy Days)

Now I want to be able to play the Nord Rack using my Midi usb keyboard (Currently already use it in ableton and works with all vst synths etc) so when I play chords on my keyboard it will play from the nord and also play in the piano roll in ableton.

I have the above set up configured like this;

M-audio KeyRig 25 (USB connected to computer and works in ableton)
Nord Rack 2x (MIDI Out Nord - Soundcard (MIDI In Soundcard)
Nord Rack 2x (MIDI In Nord - Soundcard (MIDI Out Soundcard)

I can't set it up in ableton the way I want,

would really appreciate if someone could help out

Thanks Guys

Loko!

krd

loko90210 wrote: »

M-audio KeyRig 25 (USB connected to computer and works in ableton)
Nord Rack 2x (MIDI Out Nord - Soundcard (MIDI In Soundcard)
Nord Rack 2x (MIDI In Nord - Soundcard (MIDI Out Soundcard)

I can't set it up in ableton the way I want,

would really appreciate if someone could help out

Thanks Guys

Loko!

You might need to set the Nord to MIDI thru - or through. So the keyboard to the midi in on the nord - the midi out on the nord to the DAW - and the midi out from the DAW to the midi in on the keyboard. So everything flows through.

Though if the keyboard is a USB Keyboard, you can forget about MIDI cabling it - its' midi is going over the USB cable - you can just do MIDI out to in on the Nord and in to the out on your soundcard.

On ableton, you set a track to 'external instrument' and then select the MIDI port (It'll be your sound card's) and channel (channel will usually select the preset) etc. I haven't tried (or got) MIDIOX to work - but MIDIOX looks very handy

loko90210

Thanks for the reply,

Yeah its USB keyboard, have it working in ableton, what ever I play on the keyboard plays on the piano roll in the DAW.

I'm not too sure how to set the nord to midi through, is that in ableton config or settings on the nord?


I have:

---

Midi out on the Nord -> Midi In on the soundcard
Midi In on the Nord -> Midi Out the on the soundcard

Audio output on the Nord -> Audio Input on the soundcard

Soundcard is USB -> the computer
keyboard is USB -> the computer

---

Audio from Nord is coming through on ableton when I trigger it on the nord.

Not sure and can't set it up so that when I play chords on the usb keyboard (already works in ableton) that It will play from the Nord

loko90210

Update:

Nord sound coming into ableton via soundcard
Keyboard/Ableton Piano Roll playing sounds from Nord

Once last thing;

Can I automate stuff in ableton from the Nord?

eg

Automate the cutoff from the Nord by drawing automation line in ableton?

Thanks

krd

loko90210 wrote: »

Can I automate stuff in ableton from the Nord?

If, the Nord sends MIDI control changes when you twist the Nords dials - Ableton should receive them if you're recording a track. There is a problem with Ablton filtering out SYSEX (system exclusive signals - these are not midi signals - you may not have to worry about these at all)

Automate the cutoff from the Nord by drawing automation line in ableton?

Yes, you can - it might take a bit of f'ing around to find them. They won't be automatically labelled like a plug in synth. If you create a mid clip and go to the envelopes - under midi control there's a drop down that lets you select the midi control channel - nearly all of these will be blank - your Nord cutoffs and resonances, effects, will be the blank controls. They may be listed in the Nord manual.

If you check the Nord manual - if it says anything about SYSEX, it's not a good sign - Ableton 7 at least just ignores SYSEX. It's a pain in the A if you've got something that needs SYSEX.

Try seeing if Ableton records something when you turn the dials on the Nord - that may be the quickest way to find something. May also be a good way to jam stuff from the Nord into Ableton.

loko90210

Update:

I created a midi channel in Ableton, I then selected an external instrument and selected midi from my sound card midi in, and audio from the sound card in.

I can now play on my usb keyboard and it will play from the nord Some serious latency problems, I tried messing around with them but now the buffer is all over the place, if a load a track with lots of channels the keeps dropping out and popping etc...

Also I have many other channels with bus's like drum bus, percussion bus, I send the kick, snare, hi hat to each of these. Each bus is set too in, and now all does channels play the nord. Is there any way around this.

Thank You for answering the above question!

Loko

krd

loko90210 wrote: »

I can now play on my usb keyboard and it will play from the nord Some serious latency problems, I tried messing around with them but now the buffer is all over the place, if a load a track with lots of channels the keeps dropping out and popping etc...

Ouch - this could be a tricky one. You're computer may not be able to process the audio from the Nord fast enough to stop latency while you're playing.

What kind of sound card do you have - does it have a monitoring on it.

This is a pain in the ass - shortening the buffers blah blah won't help. There are work arounds.

loko90210

I am using Native Instruments Audio 8:

Supports: ASIO™, Core Audio™, DirectSound®
MIDI: 1 Input, 1 Output
USB 2.0 interface
SR: 44.1, 48, 96 KHz
Bit Res: 24

computer:

Dell Optiplex 360
Pentium Dual Core CPU E5300 @2.60 GHz 4GB RAM
105 GB used of the 297 GB HD....

---

I really want to be able to lay out a midi clip in ableton play some chords. When I play back the clip its way out of time with th kick drum sounds awful, is there anyway to fix this problem? Have a I missed something along the way?

krd

loko90210 wrote: »

I really want to be able to lay out a midi clip in ableton play some chords. When I play back the clip its way out of time with th kick drum sounds awful, is there anyway to fix this problem? Have a I missed something along the way?

One thing is you need to do the latency tutorial in Ableton - this will correct the latency on the recordings.

For playing the Nord sounds live - you may need to go as far as having a separate set of speakers to get sound from the Nord for your live playing (if you're audio interface allows you a direct monitor, you switch off Abletons monitoring. What comes through the DAW will always have a severe latency. Some people learn to live with this - I have no idea how but they do - it's ff'ing horrible.