2010 Dublin Marathon Improvers / Sub 3:30 Thread

pgmcpq

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|4|27|27|1st full week after GLR. Ramping up. 12.5M long run|
menoscemo|6|35|35| no long run. 5 mile race 34:15|
pgmcpq|6*|41|40| 8,8,8,7,6 + 5m race (33.18)|
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|4|19|-|All short runs,5k race pb of sorts 21.12|
Plodder|5|34|36|Wanted to do an 8 miler instead of 6 on Tuesday. No time though.


*Sessions: includes two recovery/easy paced runs.
P&D due to arrive this week. HM next Saturday.

RedB

Woddle wrote: »

How are we defining sessions redb, as if you've done 4 in the first week your probably going to injure yourself.

Also would it be worth adding an extra 2 columns for long runs (15 miles or more) and for medium long runs (10-14.99 miles)

I was only thinking of sessions in the general sense i.e. runs. So, I was trying to say I ran 4 times last week.
As regards the table layout, I thought the KISS approach (Keep It Simple, Stupid ) would work best as its intended more as a summary of the P+D schedules rather than a specific reflection of them.
I posted the first week of the 55M 18week schedule on page 1 and I was thinking of maybe modifying it when it kicks off (June 21st) by putting individual columns with names along the top and people could 'tick' off their boxes as they did the runs. A difficulty with that approach is that there are a number of P+D schedules with different mileage (55, 70, etc) and 12 or 18 week durations so it could get messy trying to show everyones specific performance. But hey, if people want it and it works then lets try it out . Depending on the schedules people commit to, there might actually only be 2-3 different tables. I have the 55M schedule already input into Excel ready to post up on a week by week basis so I could easily modify it for the other schedules once I know what people are following. Of course, I'm strongly urging people to have a copy of the book themselves rather than just plagiarising the schedules from here. There's a lot of good stuff in the book that justifies having your own copy.

Woddle

Sounds good and keeping it simple is probably the best approach, I just thought it would be fantastic feedback post DM.
Anyway time to get out for a run

theduke1

hi all
might jump on board here
doing cork in 3 weeks hoping for round 3.30, training did not go according to plan but we will see soon. wil be def doing dcm again this year did 3.48 last year so hope this thread can help me

village runner

I paced the 3.30 last year and will possibly be doing it again nxt year. Regards programs they are not set in stone. If you are tired skip the day and if its a session try and fit it in another day.
Best of luck with your goals.

RacoonQueen

Woddle is the 24 weeks P&D plan in the book? Flicked through earlier and couldn't see it, I did have a copy of it a while ago from the road to boston site but not sure if I still have it.

Woddle

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Woddle is the 24 weeks P&D plan in the book? Flicked through earlier and couldn't see it, I did have a copy of it a while ago from the road to boston site but not sure if I still have it.

Page 140 of the older addition, I can scan it and send it to you if you havn't got it.

paulmcd1973

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|4|27|27|1st full week after GLR. Ramping up. 12.5M long run|
menoscemo|6|35|35| no long run. 5 mile race 34:15|
pgmcpq|6*|41|40| 8,8,8,7,6 + 5m race (33.18)|
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|2|12|25|Did my knee in playing football. Out for at least two weeks. First injury in years, lack of exercise is killing me.|
nomadic|4|19|-|All short runs,5k race pb of sorts 21.12|
Plodder|5|34|36|Wanted to do an 8 miler instead of 6 on Tuesday. No time though.


Aaaarrrggghhhh! Here's hoping the injury doesn't last too long.

cphowlin

Hey guys,

am planning on starting the 18wk plan in a couple of weeks for Dublin and i am aiming for sub 3:30. I also want to start doing some of the Wednesday imra races.

How do i go about working these into the plan? Should i just exchange it with the LT/VO2 max runs?

Any advice appreciated!

Krusty_Clown

cphowlin wrote: »

I also want to start doing some of the Wednesday imra races. How do i go about working these into the plan? Should i just exchange it with the LT/VO2 max runs?

The summer league races would kind of be positioned somewhere in between a V02max and LT session, so would be a suitable (if not ideal) replacement for either. I find the IMRA races are very tough on the body, and need a good bit of recovery time afterwards. So if you're like me, you'll need to juggle the schedule to make sure there are no 'sessions' for a couple of days afterwards, i.e. hard running. Maybe a recovery run the following day. aerobic after that etc.

cphowlin

Cheers for the advice Krusty,

Do you think it would be better to maybe do only every second imra race so that i can still do some of the planned sessions?

Krusty_Clown

cphowlin wrote: »

Cheers for the advice Krusty,

Do you think it would be better to maybe do only every second imra race so that i can still do some of the planned sessions?

That's really up to yourself, but the Leinster League is already almost half way through (well, 5/13 done), and it finishes in early July,so it's not too bad. Best to just play it by ear. The races themselves are great training, but if you find that it's costing you several days of training, then maybe ease back?

cphowlin

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

That's really up to yourself, but the Leinster League is already almost half way through (well, 5/13 done), and it finishes in early July,so it's not too bad. Best to just play it by ear. The races themselves are great training, but if you find that it's costing you several days of training, then maybe ease back?

Sure i'll give them a shot and see how it goes.
Thanks again.

RedB

Week Commencing Mon 17/5/10.
5 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|2|16|30|7,9M. Not used to such distances mid-wk. Better get used to them:rolleyes:|
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|||||

menoscemo

RedB wrote: »

Week Commencing Mon 17/5/10.
5 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|2|16|30|7,9M. Not used to such distances mid-wk. Better get used to them:rolleyes:|
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|||||

You're not finished for the week already are you?
I got a nice 8.7 miler done on tuesday and aiming for a 13-14 miler at the weekend. I am basically trying to follow something similar to the first few weeks of the P&D programme from now. I will be looking to Jump into week 3 of the programme on 21st June instead of week 1 as i am off to the states for two weeks at the start of August and will only be doing 'maintenance' miles over there.

RedB

menoscemo wrote: »

You're not finished for the week already are you?
I got a nice 8.7 miler done on tuesday and aiming for a 13-14 miler at the weekend. I am basically trying to follow something similar to the first few weeks of the P&D programme from now. I will be looking to Jump into week 3 of the programme on 21st June instead of week 1 as i am off to the states for two weeks at the start of August and will only be doing 'maintenance' miles over there.

No, not finished for the week - just putting the table up to keep the thread bumped to the front page and 'encourage' others to post or join in .
Good plan for factoring in the holidays :cool:. I hadn't thought about that even though Krusty mentioned having a bit of 'float' in his plan. I must consider how that'll work out for me.

menoscemo

RedB wrote: »

No, not finished for the week - just putting the table up to keep the thread bumped to the front page and 'encourage' others to post or join in .
Good plan for factoring in the holidays :cool:. I hadn't thought about that even though Krusty mentioned having a bit of 'float' in his plan. I must consider how that'll work out for me.

Yeah, I started 4 weeks early last year to allow for a 3 week holiday plus an extra week for unforeseen circumstances, and i needed every week of it!! I am actually feeling really positive. I have been covering 30-40 miles a week for the last two months and doing tough midweek seesions (semi,long runs with pace miles added) in anticipation of the programme starting.

xebec

I'm an improver too, wasn't really involved in the beginner thread last year but got great motivation from it! Not sure I'll be able for the P&D schedule, might end up sticking to Higdon for another race... All depends on how Cork goes I guess. Just said I'd stick my head in here and say count me in too

menoscemo

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|2|16|30|7,9M. Not used to such distances mid-wk. Better get used to them:rolleyes:|
menoscemo|5|36|39|Had to cut LSR 3 miles short due to heat exhaustion|
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|||||


Bought the p&d book today. Also bought a box of the gels I liked last year, really getting geared up to starting the programme. The marathon buzz is beginning again

RacoonQueen

I have copies of the 18 week 70 mile plan, 18 week 55 mile plan and the 24 week 55 mile plan downloaded from the old road to boston site, I can email them to people if they want to pm me their email address. Might give you a good insight into the plan before you go out and buy the book(for those who haven't already bought).

plodder

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|2|16|30|7,9M. Not used to such distances mid-wk. Better get used to them:rolleyes:|
menoscemo|5|36|39|Had to cut LSR 3 miles short due to heat exhaustion|
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|4|35|36|Did first week of P&D. Only 4 runs, but a lot more intensive than what I've been doing |

pgmcpq

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|2|16|30|7,9M. Not used to such distances mid-wk. Better get used to them:rolleyes:|
menoscemo|5|36|39|Had to cut LSR 3 miles short due to heat exhaustion|
pgmcpq|5|42|40| HM race 1:32|
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|4|35|36|Did first week of P&D. Only 4 runs, but a lot more intensive than what I've been doing |


For once I think I had the better training conditions this week !

P&D AM arrived this week - so my plan is to start following it in next week. Thinking of extending it to a 21 week plan by splitting a couple a weeks in order to slide in a few race/recovery days. Also thinking about trying the 55-70 mpw plan but scaling back the mileage as needed .... might not be realistic given the time involved. Quite surprised by how much speedwork is included.
Ordered a Garmin 305. Never used a HRM before but I'm beginning to see how it is used.

Couple of questions ...
Q1: When it talks about e.g. 5 miles recovery pace with 6*100 strides ...are the strides run in the middle or at the end of the 5 miles (or 4 miles) ?
Q2: Trying to get a handle on the right pace for these runs. The General Aeorbic runs - is this the same as McMillan's easy run pace - or is McM not a good guideline here ?

RacoonQueen

pgmcpq wrote: »

Couple of questions ...
Q1: When it talks about e.g. 5 miles recovery pace with 6*100 strides ...are the strides run in the middle or at the end of the 5 miles (or 4 miles) ?
Q2: Trying to get a handle on the right pace for these runs. The General Aeorbic runs - is this the same as McMillan's easy run pace - or is McM not a good guideline here ?

Q1: We discussed this at length last year and we never actually came to an agreement about which is best, ultimately I suppose it's up to you, whichever suits YOU best. Both options have their advantages over the other.
Q2: Go to page 141

pgmcpq

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Q1: We discussed this at length last year and we never actually came to an agreement about which is best, ultimately I suppose it's up to you, whichever suits YOU best. Both options have their advantages over the other.
Q2: Go to page 141

Sorry last year is before my time here, if I'm rehashing old stuff - just point in me in the right direction - was in on the 3:30 thread last year ?
Q2: Yes ... I read this bit but it seemed a bit odd. Just to confirm ...at 15-25% slower than PMP this would actually be a little slower than LSR pace if I read this correctly ?

Krusty_Clown

For the strides, I used to do them during the run, and I never bothered to measure 100m, instead I would wait till I was warmed up (2 miles+),and every half mile pick up the pace for 20 x 4 strides (80 strides), which would be approximately 100m. Waiting until the end and measuring them out just seemed like too much grief.

Woddle's suggestion was to do a set of strides at every mile lap on the Garmin, and just run them until the watch shows x.065, which is approximately 100m, which works equally well.

What RQ was suggesting was that consensus was never reached, as to when to perform the strides. You should be warmed up, and fully recovered from any other strides before performing a subsequent stride. One of the key factors is running form. You should be concentrating on your running form to ensure that your posture etc is as good as it can be.

RacoonQueen

pgmcpq wrote: »

Sorry last year is before my time here, if I'm rehashing old stuff - just point in me in the right direction - was in on the 3:30 thread last year ?
Q2: Yes ... I read this bit but it seemed a bit odd. Just to confirm ...at 15-25% slower than PMP this would actually be a little slower than LSR pace if I read this correctly ?

Can't help you with question two as I don't really follow mcmillan much myself. As for 1 I wasn't being sarcy or anything, sorry if I came across that way. Personally I prefer to do the strides at the end of my run - I think it's beneficial to do them on tired legs.

The P&D website also has a lot of resources, not sure if it'll be what you're looking for but the website is HERE

pgmcpq

Krusty_Clown wrote: »

For the strides, I used to do them during the run, and I never bothered to measure 100m, instead I would wait till I was warmed up (2 miles+),and every half mile pick up the pace for 20 x 4 strides (80 strides), which would be approximately 100m. Waiting until the end and measuring them out just seemed like too much grief.

Woddle's suggestion was to do a set of strides at every mile lap on the Garmin, and just run them until the watch shows x.065, which is approximately 100m, which works equally well.

What RQ was suggesting was that consensus was never reached, as to when to perform the strides. You should be warmed up, and fully recovered from any other strides before performing a subsequent stride. One of the key factors is running form. You should be concentrating on your running form to ensure that your posture etc is as good as it can be.

RacoonQueen wrote: »

Can't help you with question two as I don't really follow mcmillan much myself. As for 1 I wasn't being sarcy or anything, sorry if I came across that way. Personally I prefer to do the strides at the end of my run - I think it's beneficial to do them on tired legs.

The P&D website also has a lot of resources, not sure if it'll be what you're looking for but the website is HERE

Thanks guys. I'll do a bit of digging at the website. I use McM just to get a clue on pacing rather than for the plans - since I really have no "feel" for pace at all.

RacoonQueen

Here's a thread from last year http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055600204&highlight=strides tergat posted in it so it's probably the best info you'll get on this site.

menoscemo

Amadeus put up a thread about this during the wek and Tergat suggested running the 100m strides at 5k pace and just concentrate on good running form. It is best to do them at the end of the run when you are tired, the idea being to teach yourself to keep good form when tired.

Edit congrats on that HM time!! That is a dream time for me (maybe next year)

nomadic

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|2|16|30|7,9M. Not used to such distances mid-wk. Better get used to them:rolleyes:|
menoscemo|5|36|39|Had to cut LSR 3 miles short due to heat exhaustion|
pgmcpq|5|42|40| HM race 1:32|
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|3|19||Missed my planned LSR yesterday thanks to some junkies|
Plodder|4|35|36|Did first week of P&D. Only 4 runs, but a lot more intensive than what I've been doing |

RedB

Week Commencing Mon 24/5/10.
4 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

(Update during the week if you feel like it or at the end of the week if you prefer)
Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|1|15.75M|30|Ran with HunnyMonster Mon eve doing her Malin2Mizen run. LSR|
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|||||

menoscemo

Week Commencing Mon 24/5/10.
4 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

(Update during the week if you feel like it or at the end of the week if you prefer)
Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|1|15.75M|30|Ran with HunnyMonster Mon eve doing her Malin2Mizen run. LSR|
menoscemo|6|38||5k PB 20:14|
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|||||


Strange week, got a great speed session and an LSR in early in the week then injured myself cross training (playing football) on thursday. I couldn't even walk on thursday but somehow recovered by saturday to take 40 seconds of my 5k PB. I had to throw in an extra run today to make up for miles missed due to the injury.

plodder

Week Commencing Mon 24/5/10.
4 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

(Update during the week if you feel like it or at the end of the week if you prefer)
Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|1|15.75M|30|Ran with HunnyMonster Mon eve doing her Malin2Mizen run. LSR|
menoscemo|6|38||5k PB 20:14|
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|4|36|36|same as last week more or less|

nomadic

Week Commencing Mon 24/5/10.
4 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

(Update during the week if you feel like it or at the end of the week if you prefer)
Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|1|15.75M|30|Ran with HunnyMonster Mon eve doing her Malin2Mizen run. LSR|
menoscemo|6|38||5k PB 20:14|
pgmcpq|||||
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|3|32||2 LSR's, 1 tempo|
Plodder|4|36|36|same as last week more or less|

pgmcpq

menoscemo wrote: »

Edit congrats on that HM time!! That is a dream time for me (maybe next year)

Thanks - I would have said the same less than six months ago but it's amazing what a forgiving course can do. I would not say no to that 5k time you just posted !

Bad week for running. Picked up some thing which initially looked like just a head cold but has proved incredibly persistant. Cut back mileage before a 10k today but with no noticable improvement :mad:. Four races in the last month has got me to the point where I hope to begin to focusing on Dublin this week.


Week Commencing Mon 24/5/10.
4 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

(Update during the week if you feel like it or at the end of the week if you prefer)
Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|1|15.75M|30|Ran with HunnyMonster Mon eve doing her Malin2Mizen run. LSR|
menoscemo|6|38||5k PB 20:14|
pgmcpq|4|28|40| Wretched week - battling persistant head cold/virus|
Effin Runner|||||
woddle|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|3|32||2 LSR's, 1 tempo|
Plodder|4|36|36|same as last week more or less|

menoscemo

Week Commencing Mon 31/5/10.
3 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|4|33|33|Starting the plan 3 weeks early. Week 1 done, quite easy:D|
pgmcpq|||| |
Effin Runner|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|||||

Bump. Just finished of week 1 of the programme. Not too bad at all. Starting 3 weeks early due to a 2 week holiday at the start of august.

plodder

Week Commencing Mon 31/5/10.
3 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|4|33|33|Starting the plan 3 weeks early. Week 1 done, quite easy:D|
pgmcpq|||| |
Effin Runner|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|4|36|37|same again ... see below|


Question. Just wondering about starting the plan early and taking a week off in the middle. How much running would you have to do in the off week, to stay "with it"?

Also, say you get to the middle of September and it turns out you're not taking a week off, which week in the program would you repeat? Any opinions?

pgmcpq

Week Commencing Mon 31/5/10.
3 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|4|33|33|Starting the plan 3 weeks early. Week 1 done, quite easy:D|
pgmcpq|6|51|48| 10k race 42:50 , starting to feel better |
Effin Runner|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|4|36|37|same again ... see below|

pgmcpq

Week Commencing Mon 7/6/10.
3 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|6|55|55| LSR 16 w/8 PMP - tough ! |
Effin Runner|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|||||


Oddly I seem to have lost ability to format tables (Edit: ok now it works!)... but I'd like to rescue this thread before it vanishes into the void

menoscemo

Week Commencing Mon 7/6/10.
3 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|4|35|36| ok|
pgmcpq|6|55|55| LSR 16 w/8 PMP - tough ! |
Effin Runner|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
nomadic|||||
Plodder|||||

Did a leg of the cork Marathon relay so that knocked one of my 8 miles runs on the head. Thankfully the programme is back to 5 runs this week, I was finding the 4 runs per week a little short. I am into week 3 of the 55mpw programmes, nice to be progressing to 40 mile weeks.

Oisin11178

Forgive me if its in this thread somewhere, in lazy:-). What sorts of times are you guys going for? Anywhere from 3-3.30?

menoscemo

Oisin11178 wrote: »

Forgive me if its in this thread somewhere, in lazy:-). What sorts of times are you guys going for? Anywhere from 3-3.30?

Personally I'm an 'Improver' somewhere around 3:30 would be great for me, but more imprtantly I just want to run well and not blow up.

plodder

I'd be aiming to just get under 3:30 as well. That would be a fairly significant improvement for me.

pgmcpq

3:30 is my BQ (which I had hoped to have wrapped up by now *sigh* ).
So expecting a PB, loosely targetting < 3:30 ... hoping for ( training for ) 3:20, dreaming for 3:15 ... but don't want to get too focused on target time on the day.

Oisin11178

Thanks for the replys:-)
3.30 was a time getting passed. When i did i went through it by a good bit. Good bit of advise i took to heart was train for a quicker time so 3.30 is easier on the day.

nomadic

Week Commencing Mon 7/6/10.
3 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|4|35|36| ok|
pgmcpq|6|55|55| LSR 16 w/8 PMP - tough ! |
Effin Runner|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
Plodder|||||

I'm going to bail out of this lads. Something else has come up and the marathon won't be happening this year. Good luck with it.

RedB

Week Ending Sun 13/6/10.
3 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|2|22|30|:o Tri crosstraining a lot instead with a Tri race coming up. 13.1M LSR. I will be off track for the next few weeks .|
menoscemo|4|35|36| ok|
pgmcpq|6|55|55| LSR 16 w/8 PMP - tough ! |
Effin Runner|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
Plodder|||||


Having the table as a record of the week just finished might be the way to go?

paulmcd1973

Having a disaster updating the table. Finally shook off a cold and some niggling injuries. Was able to do a few sessions this week, 4 sessions, 22 miles. Starting off P&D on Tuesday with a 9 miler.

Any advice on how to update the table? Even the basic tutorials aren't helping me, http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055721080

ecoli

Easiest way is to copy the previous table, take out quote codes, copy and paste a line and put it just under the last line and change the data to what ever you want. Once you have done this your name will be there so just quote it when ever and change the figures

pgmcpq

Week Ending Sun 20/6/10.
1 weeks to start of P+D 18 week Schedule

Name|Sessions Completed|Total Miles This week|Weekly Target|Comments
RedB|||||
menoscemo|||||
pgmcpq|6|59|58| 16m is now a strain ?:( |
Effin Runner|||||
paulmcd1973|||||
Plodder|||||


Not sure what is going on but having started a little early I am suddenly finding myself feeling the strain earlier in the LSR. Hopefully this is the expected effect of the mid-week work ... still I expect a 16 LSR miles to be pretty comfortable. On the brighter side I've managed three weeks of P&D and am still standing!