Argentinas Squad (may contain craziness)

mormank

FireballPitcher wrote: »

Yeah but Juventus were relegated as still a good/great team, just due to the Calciopoli scandal. Newcastle were relegated because they weren't good enough. The Juve players were obviously still great players who played in lower divisions because their team was still amazing, they weren't relegated on ability. The Newcastle lads are still there because they are Championship players on a team that was not good enough for the PL, wherease Juve were good enough for Serie A. So there is a big difference.

Oh you almost had me there for a second sir. Answer me this then, if Owen had of stayed playing for Newky out of loyalty but was banging them in for them and genuinely looked really sharp would you say he shouldnt go to the world cup?

Now how about if it was Milner? Or if Glenn Johnson played for them and stayed out of loyalty? Just because a team get relegated doesnt mean that a single player isnt good enough for international duty is thepoint I'm trying to make here...

Or are you saying that you dont approve because they have played in the championship all season?? Because that would directly contradict what you said about the Juve players, so no, of course you're not saying that...hmm

Cypher_sounds

Well if there not retired I cant understand how Cambiasso nor Zanetti are not considered, they would be two of the first names in my starting 11.
Ok they have savage good attacking options but for me they are not going to reach the promise land.

TonyD79

mormank wrote: »

Oh you almost had me there for a second sir. Answer me this then, if Owen had of stayed playing for Newky out of loyalty but was banging them in for them and genuinely looked really sharp would you say he shouldnt go to the world cup?

Now how about if it was Milner? Or if Glenn Johnson played for them and stayed out of loyalty? Just because a team get relegated doesnt mean that a single player isnt good enough for international duty is thepoint I'm trying to make here...

Or are you saying that you dont approve because they have played in the championship all season?? Because that would directly contradict what you said about the Juve players, so no, of course you're not saying that...hmm

If Owen had been banging them in and was selected for thr World Cup it would largely be due to his previous record for England. The Juve case is like say Chelsea getting relegated over match fixing and Terry and Lampard staying. They would still be expected to be picked for England.

Theres a big difference in quality here to these two championship players. Milners broken into the England set up this year based on his form with Villa doing well. He wouldnt have had a hope if he was still at Newcastle. Look at Johnson as soon as he leaves Boro and plays a few good games for City in the top level he gets picked

steelcityblues

Greece could beat them tbh!

Exclamation Marc

mormank wrote: »

Oh you almost had me there for a second sir. Answer me this then, if Owen had of stayed playing for Newky out of loyalty but was banging them in for them and genuinely looked really sharp would you say he shouldnt go to the world cup?

Now how about if it was Milner? Or if Glenn Johnson played for them and stayed out of loyalty? Just because a team get relegated doesnt mean that a single player isnt good enough for international duty is thepoint I'm trying to make here...

Or are you saying that you dont approve because they have played in the championship all season?? Because that would directly contradict what you said about the Juve players, so no, of course you're not saying that...hmm

Well actually what I am saying is that when Coloccini was playing top flight football he was largely useless and looked lost for the whole season, looking pretty terrible on numerous occasions. Gutierrez was average at best, a bright spark here and there, but thats about it.

If someone one year plays attrocious football in the top flight but looks a little more solid a league down, the natural conclusion is that he's a good Championship player but not a great player at the top flight.

And to be completely honest, if Owen was banging them in the Championship, it probably wouldn't have meant squat considering Nicky Maynard has a 1 in 2 record in the Championship, and yet he's not even close to being close to being considered. Rickie Lambert looked incredibly sharp in League One this year; 30 goals in 45 games, but does that make a difference? No, because its not against top opposition which is what you would expect the World Cup to contain.

Making a comparison between Juventus and Newcastle is moronic and inaccurate at best. Newcastle were relegated because they were not a good team, Juventus were relegated because of a match-fixing scandal. When Juventus went down, there was no doubt as to the quality of their players. When Newcastle went down, there was a doubt because that quality of their players is what got them relegated.

The Juve internationals when they went down proved themselves at international and top flight level, the Newcastle players didn't. Simple as. I don't get your argument that if someone is a proven Championship player and looks great in the Championship that he would automatically be a great World Cup player, because naturally he is looking great against players of a lower calibre.

Mrmoe

I would say Maradona is just playing up the the craziness just to increase Argentinas odds of winning the WC and then putting a sneaky bet on before it starts. There is so much absurdity in the team at the moment that I cannot wait to see them play when the tournament kicks off. I can see them going far, at least to the semis and after that it is anyones guess.

Ush1

Just so yous know Coloccini was capped long before he came to Newcastle and was outstanding with the national team. Also, he was fantastic with Depor.

gustavo

FireballPitcher wrote: »

Well actually what I am saying is that when Coloccini was playing top flight football he was largely useless and looked lost for the whole season, looking pretty terrible on numerous occasions. Gutierrez was average at best, a bright spark here and there, but thats about it.

If someone one year plays attrocious football in the top flight but looks a little more solid a league down, the natural conclusion is that he's a good Championship player but not a great player at the top flight.

And to be completely honest, if Owen was banging them in the Championship, it probably wouldn't have meant squat considering Nicky Maynard has a 1 in 2 record in the Championship, and yet he's not even close to being close to being considered. Rickie Lambert looked incredibly sharp in League One this year; 30 goals in 45 games, but does that make a difference? No, because its not against top opposition which is what you would expect the World Cup to contain.

Making a comparison between Juventus and Newcastle is moronic and inaccurate at best. Newcastle were relegated because they were not a good team, Juventus were relegated because of a match-fixing scandal. When Juventus went down, there was no doubt as to the quality of their players. When Newcastle went down, there was a doubt because that quality of their players is what got them relegated.

The Juve internationals when they went down proved themselves at international and top flight level, the Newcastle players didn't. Simple as. I don't get your argument that if someone is a proven Championship player and looks great in the Championship that he would automatically be a great World Cup player, because naturally he is looking great against players of a lower calibre.

Generally your club form gets you into the international team and your international form is what keeps you in it

eagle eye

Leaving Cambiasso and Zanetti behind is not going to cost Argentina the World Cup unless they have an horrific run of injuries.

They have Mascherano who plays the same role as Cambiasso at a very similar standard. Demichelis can play that role to a very high standard too if needed. They also have Bolatti who can play in the DCM role. I think the reason he was left behind though is because of that penalty miss four years ago.
Zanetti being left our is more of a surprise for me but maybe he was campaigning for his Inter teammate and drew the wrath of Maradona upon himself. Who knows? Hell maybe both of them were backing Riquelme, we don't really know. Riquelme is the biggest loss from that panel imo but still Veron is playing wonderful football since he returned to Argentian, he lead Estudiantes to the copa libertadore last year and has won the last two South American player of the year awards.

Collocini is not in the 23 man squad.

Ush1

eagle eye wrote: »

Leaving Cambiasso and Zanetti behind is not going to cost Argentina the World Cup unless they have an horrific run of injuries.

They have Mascherano who plays the same role as Cambiasso at a very similar standard. Demichelis can play that role to a very high standard too if needed. They also have Bolatti who can play in the DCM role. I think the reason he was left behind though is because of that penalty miss four years ago.
Zanetti being left our is more of a surprise for me but maybe he was campaigning for his Inter teammate and drew the wrath of Maradona upon himself. Who knows? Hell maybe both of them were backing Riquelme, we don't really know. Riquelme is the biggest loss from that panel imo but still Veron is playing wonderful football since he returned to Argentian, he lead Estudiantes to the copa libertadore last year and has won the last two South American player of the year awards.

Collocini is not in the 23 man squad.

Zanetti was basically singled out in the Argentine media during their bad run of form and particularly after their humilating home defeat to Brazil, he played very badly.

Kirnsy

eagle eye wrote: »

They have Mascherano who plays the same role as Cambiasso at a very similar standard

I'd respectfully disagree. I think Cambiasso is at another level to Masch. Cambiasso is more of a complete player combining intelligence and vision with his tackling and defensive prowess. Masch would be more aggressive and physical but would not have the same vision to pick a pass. Basically if you wanted a player nullified you'd put masch on him but if you wanted a defensive mid to cover your defense and be able to bring the ball out of defense you'd go with Cambiasso. IMO he'd be more suited to Maradona's 4 2 4 formation.

After reading the article earlier in the thread about the method to maradona's madness, I'd actually throw a couple of €€ on them to win tbh. It explains a lot and with their poor qualifying form their odds are quite long. (10/1 , 12/1). IMO worth a shot!

mayordenis

I think they're gonna win it - I just enjoyed their very desperate attempts to get their and it just seemed like it was leading to something - I think with Messi, Aguero, Tevez, Higuain, Di Maria etc. on the pitch over the course of 90 or 120 minutes they'll outscore basically everyone.

gustavo

mayordenis wrote: »

I think they're gonna win it - I just enjoyed their very desperate attempts to get their and it just seemed like it was leading to something - I think with Messi, Aguero, Tevez, Higuain, Di Maria etc. on the pitch over the course of 90 or 120 minutes they'll outscore basically everyone.

At least 2 of those 3 won't be starting

Tevez and Aguero are great options from the bench though

mayordenis

gustavo wrote: »

At least 2 of those 3 won't be starting

Tevez and Aguero are great options from the bench though

Sorry that's the way I meant - just typed it like a spa :P

meant over the course of 90 minutes you'll see all of them on the pitch so if you run the rule over say Di Maria and Teves for 70 minutes and think you're home clear you have a nice ****ing surprise waiting in a fresh Higuain and Aguero for the last 20. Of course the constant threat of Messi.

JPA

Diego Maradona has vowed to strip naked if he guides Argentina to World Cup glory in South Africa this summer.
Argentina are among the favourites for success at the showpiece tournament despite only scraping through the South American qualification programme.
And Maradona, who lifted the trophy as captain in 1986, claims he will streak around one of Buenos Aires' most famous landmarks should Argentina end their 24-year wait for the trophy.
He told reporters: "If we win the World Cup, I'll get naked and run around the city's Obelisk."
Barcelona ace Lionel Messi will be under the spotlight this summer as he looks to transfer his club form to the international stage.
Messi was rested for the warm-up victory over Canada with Maradona unwilling to risk an untimely injury to his talented playmaker.
Maradona told Messi: "If something had happened to you in that match, I'd have been shot - you know where."
Desire

Messi helped guide Barca to another La Liga title this season, having helped them secure the UEFA Champions League the previous term and now has his sights set on further success with Argentina.
He said: "I don't feel the pressure. The truth is I'm arriving in good shape.
"I have a strong desire to do as well as I can, as do my team-mates. We want to give our best for Argentina and we hope things turn out well.
"I won't change. I'll keep playing in the same way. I hope to be able to do what I do for Barcelona in the national team without my form suffering.
"I have also won everything individually and now I would like to do the same with Argentina"

:pac:

Exclamation Marc

Talked to a reporter friend of mine today and he said the reason Zanetti is not in the squad is that during a game last year in qualifying Maradona gave out awful tactics to the team when they were losing and on the way out Zanetti apparently told the players alternate tactics as Maradona's were poor at best and when Maradona caught wind of this, he exiled him.

Also, the Argentinian position is that they aren't too concerned with his absence as he was rated the second worst player in qualifying or something to that degree. Cambiasso's absense irks them though. Saying this though, if Argentina don't do well, the lack of Cambiasso and Zanetti (despite their acceptance of this) will be what they hang Maradona on.

eagle eye

FireballPitcher wrote: »

Talked to a reporter friend of mine today and he said the reason Zanetti is not in the squad is that during a game last year in qualifying Maradona gave out awful tactics to the team when they were losing and on the way out Zanetti apparently told the players alternate tactics as Maradona's were poor at best and when Maradona caught wind of this, he exiled him.

Also, the Argentinian position is that they aren't too concerned with his absence as he was rated the second worst player in qualifying or something to that degree. Cambiasso's absense irks them though. Saying this though, if Argentina don't do well, the lack of Cambiasso and Zanetti (despite their acceptance of this) will be what they hang Maradona on.

I just don't believe that anybody said that, I mean tactics are a personal opinion anyways before you play them and they fail that is. So for a player to come out and change them, well I'm sorry I just don't believe that for one second.
Fact is he played badly as someobdy said earlier and was dropped.

Cambiasso hasn't played since Argentiana lost to Chile in 2008 and drew a couple of days before that at home with Paraguay. Who knows what went on after those games, maybe Cambiasso was not happy with Maradona, maybe Maradona blamed Cambiasso for the bad performances. Either way he didn't play since then so its not really a surprise that he wasn't selected for the World Cup panel when he wasn't involved in turning things around for them.

Exclamation Marc

eagle eye wrote: »

I just don't believe that anybody said that, I mean tactics are a personal opinion anyways before you play them and they fail that is. So for a player to come out and change them, well I'm sorry I just don't believe that for one second.
Fact is he played badly as someobdy said earlier and was dropped.

Cambiasso hasn't played since Argentiana lost to Chile in 2008 and drew a couple of days before that at home with Paraguay. Who knows what went on after those games, maybe Cambiasso was not happy with Maradona, maybe Maradona blamed Cambiasso for the bad performances. Either way he didn't play since then so its not really a surprise that he wasn't selected for the World Cup panel when he wasn't involved in turning things around for them.

Well that's what I was told, and I've no reason to doubt it. And its not exactly that far out of the realm of possibility. Maradona giving out poor instructions, and Zanetti saying "if we do it this way instead it will work".

A bit like the some stories I read online about the Liverpool team losing 3-0 at half time, then deciding to go out and play the way they want as opposed to the way they were told at the start.

And Cambiasso never played under Maradona, who noted that he doesn't need a left sided player or something bizarre to that extent.

eagle eye

FireballPitcher wrote: »

And Cambiasso never played under Maradona, who noted that he doesn't need a left sided player or something bizarre to that extent.

Well then maybe he was involved in pressuring the previous manager to step down or something. As I said earlier it may be because of his penalty miss in the last world cup.

eZe^

Also, I'd really advise against people betting on Messi to be top goalscorer. In this Argentine team Maradonna is going to employ him more as a creative midfielder, because they don't have much depth there, whereas they've about a million top class forwards. I can see Messi being played in a role similar to Lampard at Chelsea, or Kaka, behind the strikers. This means he won't be nearly as effective a goal threat, but should set up a fair few assists for Higuain, Aguero and co.

mayordenis

FireballPitcher wrote: »

Well that's what I was told, and I've no reason to doubt it. And its not exactly that far out of the realm of possibility. Maradona giving out poor instructions, and Zanetti saying "if we do it this way instead it will work".

A bit like the some stories I read online about the Liverpool team losing 3-0 at half time, then deciding to go out and play the way they want as opposed to the way they were told at the start.

And Cambiasso never played under Maradona, who noted that he doesn't need a left sided player or something bizarre to that extent.

your stories come across tabloidy

patmac

Diego's unusual training methods. I bet the guy that made him limp is gonna be dropped!
What next I wonder?:D
http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/oddballs/830091-diego-maradona-and-the-wacky-world-cup-training-session

flahavaj

Looks like a bit of harmless fun tbh.

Boskowski

You should listen to yourselves. The lot of ye. Armchair managers parroting what The Sun says.
How many of those players from the Argentinien league has any of ye actually ever seen playing? And yet you know his system better than he does himself and what players are better than the players he selected himself and make him out to be a laughing stock. The man who is without a doubt the greatest footballer ever.
I say fair enough he's a colorful character and he may not be an Ottmar Hitzfeld but sure he is no idiot and he knows football. I say let's wait and see.

eagle eye

Boskowski wrote: »

You should listen to yourselves. The lot of ye. Armchair managers parroting what The Sun says.
How many of those players from the Argentinien league has any of ye actually ever seen playing? And yet you know his system better than he does himself and what players are better than the players he selected himself and make him out to be a laughing stock. The man who is without a doubt the greatest footballer ever.
I say fair enough he's a colorful character and he may not be an Ottmar Hitzfeld but sure he is no idiot and he knows football. I say let's wait and see.

Well said. I watch a lot of Argentinian football and I can understand why Martin Palermo is in the squad. The guy is a legend in Argentina and also known as an inspirational leader.

FreeOSCAR

I love Diego and I would like to see Argentina win the World Cup...

Football is a results business and that is how any manager will be judged at the end of the day.

Peyton Manning

Boskowski wrote: »

You should listen to yourselves. The lot of ye. Armchair managers parroting what The Sun says.
How many of those players from the Argentinien league has any of ye actually ever seen playing? And yet you know his system better than he does himself and what players are better than the players he selected himself and make him out to be a laughing stock. The man who is without a doubt the greatest footballer ever.
I say fair enough he's a colorful character and he may not be an Ottmar Hitzfeld but sure he is no idiot and he knows football. I say let's wait and see.

Explain why he didn't call up Cambiasso and Zanetti, who probably had the best seasons of their entire respective careers, winning their domestic league, domestic cup and European cup in the process? Whatever about Riquelme (who's had a solid enough season considering Boca's woes), leaving out those two players is inexplicable.

It could be that Maradona will pull it off this summer and bring home the WC for Argentina, but right now, the "armchair managers parroting what The Sun says" as you call them have a hell of a lot more reasons to criticise Mardona than you have to praise him. Or have you conveniently forgotten about how they struggled to qualify for the tournament in the first place?

Frisbee

patmac wrote: »

Diego's unusual training methods. I bet the guy that made him limp is gonna be dropped!
What next I wonder?:D
http://www.metro.co.uk/sport/oddballs/830091-diego-maradona-and-the-wacky-world-cup-training-session

It had pictures of that in the Times today and my mate was trying to find them online for ages as they weren't on the Photographer's 'Getty Images' page.

Great way to train

Mr Alan

if that gossip about Zanetti telling the team to ignore Diegos tactics is true, then Maradonna is dead right not to bring him to the WC.

IvySlayer

Blasting a ball at each other seems like great craic

I'm surprised no-one ended up with a concussion, a credit to Argentinas finishing classes!

Boskowski

Archimedes wrote: »

Explain why he didn't call up Cambiasso and Zanetti, who probably had the best seasons of their entire respective careers, winning their domestic league, domestic cup and European cup in the process? Whatever about Riquelme (who's had a solid enough season considering Boca's woes), leaving out those two players is inexplicable.

It could be that Maradona will pull it off this summer and bring home the WC for Argentina, but right now, the "armchair managers parroting what The Sun says" as you call them have a hell of a lot more reasons to criticise Mardona than you have to praise him. Or have you conveniently forgotten about how they struggled to qualify for the tournament in the first place?

Maradona has explained himself, no need for me to do it. But anyway - Zanetti is a 36 years old fullback. He's had a great season but if Maradona thinks he's not short on that position I can understand why he doesn't bring him. Also there was rumours of Zanetti undermining the manager. <Ding!> Cambiasso is regarded by Maradona as not fitting into his system. There you go. Nothing earth-shattering. This kind of stuff happens all the time.

Explain to me why Bernd Schuster - one of the best midfielders we ever had - had a total of 22 caps and retired from international football at the age of 24. It's because sometimes players don't get on with coaches or don't get on with the FA or couldn't be arsed. You tell me. I mean only look at Ireland. Their (arguably) 2 best players over the last 10-15 years didn't play or refused to play for Ireland at some stage.

It doesn't necessarily mean the coach is insane. What is a more likely explanation is that you don't have all the facts.

Edit: Looked up a couple if things by the way:
Riquelme retired from international football after a falling out with Maradona - classic story.
And their shaky qualification campaign - Maradona took over the post with less than a handful matches left, didn't he?

gustavo

Their record in qualification under him was far better than what it was before he arrived

gustavo

Archimedes wrote: »

Explain why he didn't call up Cambiasso and Zanetti, who probably had the best seasons of their entire respective careers, winning their domestic league, domestic cup and European cup in the process? Whatever about Riquelme (who's had a solid enough season considering Boca's woes), leaving out those two players is inexplicable.

Because when they were playing for Argentina they were less than impressive and the team was losing.
Simple really

dor83

gustavo wrote: »

Their record in qualification under him was far better than what it was before he arrived

I don't think it was, afaik they had 16pts from their first 10 qualifying games before he took over and 12pts from the 8 after he took over. If that is correct, and I'm almost sure it is, they had an average of 1.6pts per game before he took over and 1.5pts per game under him, meaning they have a slightly worse record under him. He also lost 4 of his 8 games in charge, including equaling their biggest ever margin of defeat, and they had only lost 2 in 10 before he took over.

timetogetfit

who is their first choice keeper?

dor83

timetogetfit wrote: »

who is their first choice keeper?

Romero as far as I know, he has been used for the last few games since the loss to Brasil after which Andujar was dropped I think.