Passengers getting violent on Luas - where is security?

BenShermin

Personally until 2056 when intergrated ticketing is finally introduced, I'd make the ticket machines "card only". I know of nobody who doesn't have at least a Laser card these days. Of course the stupid minimum of €5 per transaction would have to be removed.

Judgement Day

BenShermin wrote: »

Personally until 2056 when intergrated ticketing is finally introduced, I'd make the ticket machines "card only". I know of nobody who doesn't have at least a Laser card these days. Of course the stupid minimum of €5 per transaction would have to be removed.

Proper security at the Luas stops is all that is required. You must live in a rarefied atmosphere knowing nobody who hasn't a Laser card. I haven't got one and know plenty of others who don't.

cbreeze

steamengine wrote: »

( P--sed off being stopped and asked for 'spare change'. They get nothing from me !!!

I usually say 'sorry I've only fifties!!!'

dowlingm

Then direct people to local stores with LUAS ticketing facilities. As the woman who runs "vibes and scribes" in Cork is finding out, the advocates for "the marginalised" will never permit robust enforcement. The only alternative is to remove the opportunities.

DWCommuter

Judgement Day wrote: »

You must live in a rarefied atmosphere knowing nobody who hasn't a Laser card. I haven't got one and know plenty of others who don't.

I was with Ben, until I met you! No laser card? WTF JD? You are now proudly a person I know with no laser card. Call your bank. They are shafting you.:D

BenShermin

DWCommuter wrote: »

I was with Ben, until I met you! No laser card? WTF JD? You are now proudly a person I know with no laser card. Call your bank. They are shafting you.:D

Don't mind JD, he's probably just keeping it a secret because he fears that beggars might get chip and pin machines for future begging;).

schemingbohemia

AlekSmart wrote: »

The gas part of it all is that we already HAVE the answer at our disposal IF the RPA/Dept of Transport can remove the blinkers.

The current Luas SmartCard should be immediately revamped and REDUCED in price enough to make it a "no-brainer" to stick with cash.

Any associated shortfall should be made up by Central Government as the price to be paid for a secure and safe Public Transport system.

No Cash=No Beggars.:eek:

how do you top-up the smart card then? only online? not exactly inclusive. virtually every smart card has a cash top-up option. the problem is that the garda should be moving these people on and they aren't. i was sure i'd heard about some bill that was to be introduced criminalising begging near ATMs, if it were expanded to include parking meters and luas stops that would help but enforcement is the issue.

foggy_lad

the real issue is that Veolia are not enforcing their own by-laws for everyone and openly allow underage drinking on trams as well as allowing begging on luas platforms. they will only enforce their rules for what they see as soft targets which include the likes of people rushing to work who forget to "tag on" or people who have over run their stop due to being afraid to get off the tram at abbey street because of the beggars.

it is very easy for this company to fine ordinary people because we are mostly law abiding and respectful of authority but they allow the beggars and junkies to travel free and have free reign at platforms because if they try to fine these people they will find their service targeted like last week at the red cow stop.

Victor

foggy_lad wrote: »

people who have over run their stop due to being afraid to get off the tram at abbey street because of the beggars.

I can't see this as an argument when getting off a tram as you don't have to wait at the stop when you get off.

Walking on the street is generally safer than being ina confined space.

foggy_lad

Victor wrote: »

I can't see this as an argument when getting off a tram as you don't have to wait at the stop when you get off.

Walking on the street is generally safer than being ina confined space.

People act in very strange ways when they are fearful for their own or their childrens' safety, especially when they know there is i good chance the people at the ticket machines are drug users/dealers and may be intoxicated and dangerous(if they were harmless all the security guards would not be wearing stab vests). generally the beggars are on the street and not in the trams so in some instances it would be safer to stay on the tram and go to the next stop.

I would not bring my nieces into the City Centre and alight the Luas at Abbey street or Jervis stops, i would get off before or at the next stop and walk to where we wanted to go. saying that i also would not let them use the toilets in Heuston station or in Busaras but that is a topic for a different thread.

angel01

foggy_lad wrote: »

the real issue is that Veolia are not enforcing their own by-laws for everyone and openly allow underage drinking on trams as well as allowing begging on luas platforms. they will only enforce their rules for what they see as soft targets which include the likes of people rushing to work who forget to "tag on" or people who have over run their stop due to being afraid to get off the tram at abbey street because of the beggars.

it is very easy for this company to fine ordinary people because we are mostly law abiding and respectful of authority but they allow the beggars and junkies to travel free and have free reign at platforms because if they try to fine these people they will find their service targeted like last week at the red cow stop.

That is no excuse..You have to just live your life and stop worrying about what if's..I will not anyone control my life or stop me doing what I want to do. I live here, I have the right to use the luas (which i do every day) and I just ignore anyone begging. They have never harmed me, I have never said anything to them, just walk on by

foggy_lad

there were very few beggars on any of the luas stops today except for a few of the dublin ones who were never left long enough to ask anyone for money, security seemed to just fall from the sky when and where required, the massive garda presence in the city ahead of the march tonight may have helped:) anyway well done to Veoila on looking after their fare-paying passengers

trellheim

I'd just like to make the point that we have no problems walking into a shop to buy a phone topup. A similar approach to purchasing a LUAS topup is quite feasible

e.g. Buy $20, get long number on receipt, enter long number on receipt into luas ticket machine, bingo card topped up.

paulm17781

trellheim wrote: »

Buy $20, get long number on receipt, enter long number on receipt into luas ticket machine, bingo card topped up.

Can the "smart" card be topped up online?

stinkle

I've started to use the Luas (red line) more and more in the last few months and haven't noticed anything TOO bad happening on board...yet! The begging at the stops is really starting to bug me though. I actually gave up going to Abbey St as it got really annoying if the machines were acting up (eg rejecting coins or crumpled up notes). there was always some eagle-eyed junkie ready to offer "help".

Of late my smart card has been very handy in terms of avoiding being asked for change, but of course they have to be topped up at some point (dont think you can do it online, but good idea whoever thought it up!). I used to think topping up the card was a good way of using up my spare change, but recently at Jervis there was a child of about 10 who followed people from one machine to the next and stood extremely close to them while they were using the machines. I only had the bare minimum amount (€5, in change) on me to top up my card, so I really hoped that the kid wouldn't try to grab any coins that the machine rejected cos I wouldn't have had enough to finish the transaction! It was weird cos she just stood there and said absolutely nothing. Ive never seen her or anyone else pull a stunt like that since. Laser top-up all the way from now on!

Also have the pleasure of spending time at the St James' Luas stop, and that's scary too. I can't quite comprehend how anyone thinks that begging there is a good idea. All they encounter are: fellow scumbags, fed-up hospital staff who don't give spare change, outpatients and relatives/friends of sick people. Often visitors and patients are easy targets I guess because many aren't from Dublin and might not be familiar with the Luas, so tend to dawdle at the ticket machine or ask other passengers for directions/the right platform to use. No doubt many of these people have received bad news and don't deserve to be hassled by these scumbags IMHO. It just annoys me when I see it happen there in particular.

I've a huge problem with the loud "PLEASE TAKE YOUR TICKET AND YOUR CHANGE" announcement on the machines for these reasons, as it just highlights the fact you have change! grrr...

Victor

paulm17781 wrote: »

Can the "smart" card be topped up online?

Luas no, Irish Rail yes.

Unshelved

Heuston Station on a a Sunday evening is just an embarrassement there are so many skangers hanging around the Luas ticket machines, looking for a "spare euro". The last time I was there, I'd say two of them collected at least €20 between them in the five minutes I was waiting for a Luas - goodness knows how much they make in a day - obviously plenty, or they wouldn't be there. They always seem to pounce on tourists leaving the station for the city centre, and also older people who look a bit vulnerable. It really p*sses me off that Veolia do nothing about this, it's so blatant.

RMD

foggy_lad wrote: »

People act in very strange ways when they are fearful for their own or their childrens' safety, especially when they know there is i good chance the people at the ticket machines are drug users/dealers and may be intoxicated and dangerous(if they were harmless all the security guards would not be wearing stab vests). generally the beggars are on the street and not in the trams so in some instances it would be safer to stay on the tram and go to the next stop.

I would not bring my nieces into the City Centre and alight the Luas at Abbey street or Jervis stops, i would get off before or at the next stop and walk to where we wanted to go. saying that i also would not let them use the toilets in Heuston station or in Busaras but that is a topic for a different thread.

I don't want to drag this off-topic but I never understood why parents / relatives shield children like that. I walk by these drugged up junkies twice daily up and down Marlborough street that you see at Jervis / Abbey for the last 5 years and have never had a problem. The fact that I was so ignorant / naive of them at first was probably the most dangerous thing about them as I didn't know how to handle myself around them.

Making your nieces naive of a potential threat by avoiding them is just as dangerous for them, if not more dangerous than just getting off on Abbey / Jervis.

foggy_lad

RMD wrote: »

I don't want to drag this off-topic but I never understood why parents / relatives shield children like that. I walk by these drugged up junkies twice daily up and down Marlborough street that you see at Jervis / Abbey for the last 5 years and have never had a problem. The fact that I was so ignorant / naive of them at first was probably the most dangerous thing about them as I didn't know how to handle myself around them.

Making your nieces naive of a potential threat by avoiding them is just as dangerous for them, if not more dangerous than just getting off on Abbey / Jervis.

it is not about trying to hide anything from them but generally responsible adults don't want their own or any children physically seeing this grubbier side of the luas when they are in dublin to have a nice day out and enjoy themselves. should people warn children that they may see dirty dangerous people when they get on the luas?

RMD

foggy_lad wrote: »

it is not about trying to hide anything from them but generally responsible adults don't want their own or any children physically seeing this grubbier side of the luas when they are in dublin to have a nice day out and enjoy themselves. should people warn children that they may see dirty dangerous people when they get on the luas?

These aren't problems specific to the Luas, these people are all over Dublin, you'll see them on O'Connell street, you'll see them on Henry street, you'll see them on Grafton street. No matter where you go, you'll more than likely see them. Do you warn your kids / nieces you might see "dirty dangerous" people every time you come up to Dublin? Take a walk up Marlborough street, the Luas stops is nothing in comparison.

Honestly, it seems you're just shielding your nieces from reality. I hope they'll have the knowledge how to handle themselves around junkies once they're out walking around Dublin on their own, as I can guarntee very few teens are going to go out of their way just to avoid some junkies on a busy street.

foggy_lad

fair enough so just let veoila off the hook on their responsibility to their customers? how many of the beggars have they had barred from luas stops? they have no intention of looking after their paying customers untill it affects their revenue!

schemingbohemia

foggy_lad wrote: »

fair enough so just let veoila off the hook on their responsibility to their customers? how many of the beggars have they had barred from luas stops? they have no intention of looking after their paying customers untill it affects their revenue!

Sorry but just how effective do you think 'barring' them from a stop would be, and how could it be done?

KD345

foggy_lad wrote: »

fair enough so just let veoila off the hook on their responsibility to their customers? how many of the beggars have they had barred from luas stops? they have no intention of looking after their paying customers untill it affects their revenue!

I would agree with this to a certain extent. I have been on trams where scumbags have been on board, but despite having no ticket, they are just asked to leave the tram. Meanwhile, further down the carriage a passenger is getting a fine.

If something in the city is causing anti-social problems as the Luas is, then Veolia/RPA/Gardai have to act. Public transport is not like walking down the street where you can cross the road or choose a different route, it's an essential service which people have no choice but to use. I have encountered numerous situations which have shocked me. I live in the city centre and I'm well used to the type of people roaming the streets, but for some reason the Red Line Luas acts like a magnet to the scum of Dublin. I can understand having the occasional drunk or dodgy passenger, but I have had a few encounters where I actually feared for mine or a fellow passengers safety. I witnessed a woman being attacked at Abbey Street Luas stop by three junkies, and I have been on two separate trams, one at Rialto and one at Four Courts, where a gang of youths got on and threatened passengers. I have heard similar horror stories from friends who also use the service.

Of course, this is a bigger problem that affects the whole of Dublin rather than just Luas, but the fact remains that we have an expensive new transport system where criminal behaviour is a serious problem.

foggy_lad

just when security patrols had safety and security restored on the luas i was threatened and spat at by one of the "harmless" homeless junkies at heuston station stop. and to the horror of people waiting the emergency phones at the city and the centre platform have been damageed beyond use most likely by junkies and beggars. also from my conversation with the control person i got the impression there was no cctv monitoring today! so much for customer safety.

BenShermin

foggy_lad wrote: »

just when security patrols had safety and security restored on the luas i was threatened and spat at by one of the "harmless" homeless junkies at heuston station stop..

Lovely:(, hope your okay.

Make no mistake about it this junkie scum is no longer deemed "harmless" in my opinion. Last week at 7am in the morning my friend was stabbed with a syringe in the Liffey Street area on his way to work. I wouldn't be afraid of that scum, but seen as I've also been threatened many times for not giving junkies cigarettes in the last few weeks I wouldn't have my guard down either. Foggy Lad is right, they are far from harmless and should not be discribed as such.

angel01

foggy_lad wrote: »

just when security patrols had safety and security restored on the luas i was threatened and spat at by one of the "harmless" homeless junkies at heuston station stop. and to the horror of people waiting the emergency phones at the city and the centre platform have been damageed beyond use most likely by junkies and beggars. also from my conversation with the control person i got the impression there was no cctv monitoring today! so much for customer safety.

If you feel so passionate about it, why don't you do something about it? How would you ban people from stops? That is like saying ban someone from standing at a bus stop on a road? You might be better getting yourself a car or use the bus.

How do you know drug addicts or beggars have done it? Most damage in the city is not caused by them. Stereotyping people is not right.

Why did he spit at you and swear at you?

Can you not just steer clear of the machines and just board the tram?

Cookie_Monster

angel01 wrote: »

Can you not just steer clear of the machines and just board the tram?

and get done for fair evasion (rather than just being asked to leave the tram )

steamengine

angel01 wrote: »

If you feel so passionate about it, why don't you do something about it? How would you ban people from stops? That is like saying ban someone from standing at a bus stop on a road? You might be better getting yourself a car or use the bus.

How do you know drug addicts or beggars have done it? Most damage in the city is not caused by them. Stereotyping people is not right.

Why did he spit at you and swear at you?

Can you not just steer clear of the machines and just board the tram?

You might be better getting yourself a car or use the bus.

And perhaps a whole lot of other people too - your advice negates the rest of your post though !!!

angel01

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

and get done for fair evasion (rather than just being asked to leave the tram )

Buy one in advance (get a weekly ticket or buy one when it is quieter )

angel01

steamengine wrote: »

You might be better getting yourself a car or use the bus.

And perhaps a whole lot of other people too - your advice negates the rest of your post though !!!

Like I say, if you use public transport, you take all that goes with it, I see beggers at ATM machines, I accept it, use the ATM and walk on, I have never had any issue.

I use the luas twice a day, again have had no issues, I mind my own business and get on just fine. I am not on here bitching about what people hang around, that is life.

steamengine

angel01 wrote: »

Like I say, if you use public transport, you take all that goes with it, I see beggers at ATM machines, I accept it, use the ATM and walk on, I have never had any issue.

I use the luas twice a day, again have had no issues, I mind my own business and get on just fine. I am not on here bitching about what people hang around, that is life.

All this post conveys is an "I'm all right Jack" attitude, but what about 'Jill' - is she ok ? :rolleyes:

angel01

angel01 wrote: »

Like I say, if you use public transport, you take all that goes with it, I see beggers at ATM machines, I accept it, use the ATM and walk on, I have never had any issue.

I use the luas twice a day, again have had no issues, I mind my own business and get on just fine. I am not on here bitching about what people hang around, that is life.

Your attitude is absolutely shocking. Of course we should DO SOMETHING about it. Begging should be made illegal, the only people out looking for money should be legitimate charities who won't supply these people with drugs or alcohol.

There's plenty of help out there for the addicts and bums, they choose not to accept it.

AlekSmart

There's plenty of help out there for the addicts and bums, they choose not to accept it.

Very very few of these individuals will choose not to accept assistance,but they can be somewhat picky about the form of such assistance.

Indeed,there are several charitable agencies operating in tandem with the HSE and Dept`s of Health,Justice and whatever Social Welfare is now called.

As an observational estimate I would say approx 80% of the indigent`s one sees in the City Centre will be recieving assistance of some form in addition to their basic Social Welfare entitlements.

Their greatest problem tends to be that the "charitable" assistance is not cash and thus cannot be easily converted into narcotics or alcohol.

As an experiment you could try actually buying a cup-of-tea the next time you are approached for "a euro for a cuppa"....you might be quite surprised at the lack of gratitude you may experience.

In my experience the genuine and thoroughly deserving abandoned poor tend to be somewhat older and still in possession of a tad of self-respect.
These men and women will rarely be seen playing to the gallery at the Luas stops nor will they be seen attempting to panhandle beside ATM`s and will rarely abuse other people.

One of the few people ever to recognize this abandoned class was the late Willie Bermingham who in his career as a Dublin Fireman had come across the corpses of far too many such people,the genuine abandoned class.

What we are seeing on the Luas and on other Public Transport is largely Anti-Social thuggery which has found itself a nice socially aware cloak which can be used to cover a multitude of abusive scenarios.

In the meantime the real destitutes simply fall ill and die,alone,forgotten and tarred with the same brush wielded by the "professionals" in the City Centre. :mad:

paulm17781

AlekSmart wrote: »

In my experience the genuine and thoroughly deserving abandoned poor tend to be somewhat older and still in possession of a tad of self-respect.
These men and women will rarely be seen playing to the gallery at the Luas stops nor will they be seen attempting to panhandle beside ATM`s and will rarely abuse other people.

I remember seeing a charity giving soup to the homeless a couple of years back. It was quite shocking to see them as they weren't the same folk you see out begging every day.

kravmaga

Rojomcdojo wrote: »

Your attitude is absolutely shocking. Of course we should DO SOMETHING about it. Begging should be made illegal

Begging is illegal in this country under The Criminal Justice Ammendent Act 2008 making Begging an offence.

It took over from section 3 of The old Vagrancy Act of 1847

foggy_lad

The beggars are still at heuston and I have seen them walking between st james and heuston to avoid security. The guards are no use as they are not interested in such trivial crime(it wont get them promotion) and the veolia rent-a-cops are next to useless.

Veolia will not do anything about this widespread problem untill their profits suffer from a huge drop in passenger numbers!

They could be taking legal action against the individuals involved and prevent them from using the luas or its platforms and then have them arrested and charged if they trespass, but they wont until it suits them.

paulm17781

foggy_lad wrote: »

They could be taking legal action against the individuals involved and prevent them from using the luas or its platforms and then have them arrested and charged if they trespass, but they wont until it suits them.

Then what? What do you do with a person with no address and no assets? Put them in an overcrowded jail at a cost of ~€100,000 PA? How does that help?

I agree something needs to be done but most of the necessary push needs to comes from a government level, Veolia are practically powerless here, they can move them on but they'll just come back / new ones will appear.

bmaxi

foggy_lad wrote: »

The beggars are still at heuston and I have seen them walking between st james and heuston to avoid security. The guards are no use as they are not interested in such trivial crime(it wont get them promotion) and the veolia rent-a-cops are next to useless.

Veolia will not do anything about this widespread problem untill their profits suffer from a huge drop in passenger numbers!

They could be taking legal action against the individuals involved and prevent them from using the luas or its platforms and then have them arrested and charged if they trespass, but they wont until it suits them.

The Luas stop at Heuston is very close to the wall of the Liffey. It is a very low wall and people have been known to fall over it when they've had a few too many, I'd really hate to see that happen.

foggy_lad

bmaxi wrote: »

The Luas stop at Heuston is very close to the wall of the Liffey. It is a very low wall and people have been known to fall over it when they've had a few too many, I'd really hate to see that happen.

strong words but sadly they look like a threat? is it directed at anyone in particular?

threats of violence or harm do nothing to help the situation, in answer to a previous question yes i think they should be locked up as repeat offenders and not treated as the charity cases they want to be seen as. they have more welfare and supplemtary welfare than most on the dole and feel they need to beg and threaten people to earn more! homeless people get paid an allowance on a daily basis and also get other benifits yet the taxpayers are expected to give them even more at their luas ticket toll areas.

bmaxi

foggy_lad wrote: »

strong words but sadly they look like a threat? is it directed at anyone in particular?

Perish the thought. Just concerned that these guys, having drunk themselves into a stupor might stumble and fall over the wall.

Victor

blueeyedboy wrote: »

Begging is illegal in this country under The Criminal Justice Ammendent Act 2008 making Begging an offence.

It took over from section 3 of The old Vagrancy Act of 1847

Not sure if that passed.

There is a Criminal Justice (Public Order) Bill 2010 (Number 7 of 2010) http://www.oireachtas.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocId=-1&CatID=59&m=b

EDIT: The 2008 bill doesn't even seem to have been put to the Oireachtas.

foggy_lad

bmaxi wrote: »

Perish the thought. Just concerned that these guys, having drunk themselves into a stupor might stumble and fall over the wall.

One sure way to protect them from themselves would be to completl ignore them and give then nothing!

foggy_lad

that public order bill allows for people to beg at their place of residence so if someone is claiming to be homeless they can also claim to be sleeping at heuston station giving then the right to beg there!

It also does not go far enough as a guard should be allowed remove the beggars for a period of bt least 24hours to prevent them from simply popping up to another platform for half an hour.

paulm17781

foggy_lad wrote: »

It also does not go far enough as a guard should be allowed remove the beggars for a period of bt least 24hours to prevent them from simply popping up to another platform for half an hour.

I don't understand this bit, what do you mean?

trellheim

stary mad looking girl at Jervis Westbound again, hassling people at ticket machines all lunch hour. RPA ? Hello ? At least look at the CCTV footage FFS.

KC61

As I said in another thread I really do think we have a huge problem as a society in Ireland with this. This should not be an RPA/Dublin Bus/Irish Rail problem - their job is running transport systems. As a society we just seem to want to close our eyes and pretend the problem does not exist and frontline transport personnel and passengers are being left to deal with it.

It's not just as simple as locking the offenders all up - I mean where do you put them all? Our prisons are vastly overcrowded already. If they do go to prison then they just go through a revolving door and back out onto the streets to start all over again.

There is a fundamental need to address this problem at the outset - but as Alek and others have observed no one really cares about that as it doesn't really win votes.

stinkle

trellheim wrote: »

stary mad looking girl at Jervis Westbound again, hassling people at ticket machines all lunch hour. RPA ? Hello ? At least look at the CCTV footage FFS.

is this the same girl (age 10-12) who says nothing but follows people around the machines?

foggy_lad

paulm17781 wrote: »

I don't understand this bit, what do you mean?

really if the police remove a beggar from say abby street luas or from outside a bank they should be automatically be barred from returning to the same places for at least 24 hours, they could even include all transport stops/platforms or all vending machines or bank machines

schemingbohemia

foggy_lad wrote: »

really if the police remove a beggar from say abby street luas or from outside a bank they should be automatically be barred from returning to the same places for at least 24 hours, they could even include all transport stops/platforms or all vending machines or bank machines

Do you really see this working? I can really imagine PULSE filled up with descriptions of the beggars and the time of their moving on (which has no legal basis at all):rolleyes:

As KC61 said, this is a wider societal issue it's not for RPA/IE/DB to sort out.

foggy_lad

KC61 wrote: »

As I said in another thread I really do think we have a huge problem as a society in Ireland with this. This should not be an RPA/Dublin Bus/Irish Rail problem - their job is running transport systems. As a society we just seem to want to close our eyes and pretend the problem does not exist and frontline transport personnel and passengers are being left to deal with it.

It's not just as simple as locking the offenders all up - I mean where do you put them all? Our prisons are vastly overcrowded already. If they do go to prison then they just go through a revolving door and back out onto the streets to start all over again.

There is a fundamental need to address this problem at the outset - but as Alek and others have observed no one really cares about that as it doesn't really win votes.

locking them up at least makes it safer for society, and why release them if the prisons are a bit crowded? invest in more thin floor mattresses and let the scum sleep on the floors. it is far more than many of them deserve and will cost far less than trying to understand them then communicate with and rehabiliate these junkie scum.

the problem is thay have made bad choices and continue to make the same bad choices no matter how much money and resources are pumped into their help and rehabilitation. and even when they are off the gear they will still beg at luas stops to supplement their welfare payments so they can buy their valium hash and dutch gold