Formula 1 2010: Round 5 Monaco

Ghost Train

Sounds like it's not black and white regarding the rules, so it will be interesting to see what happens. Sounds like the safety car was being called in instead if the race being finished under the safety car.

amacachi

Oblomov wrote: »

Quite correct, the safety car was called in on the final lap, and as such the race ended on the final lap, had the safety car been called in on the pen-ultimate lap, then yes your argument would hold but.... rules, sez.. final lap, cars were on the final lap at the time of the safety car coming in. No overtaking..

Up to the stewards now.

No, don't think of it as the safety car actually turning into the pits.
If the race finished under the SC, yes it still would've come into the pits, but the cards would've stayed out and SC regulations would have applied. However the Safety Car was called in, the lights went green and racing was allowed. Technically the race didn't finish under the SC.
Had the race finished under the SC then what happened to the naked eye would have still happened.
It's a silly rule, yes, but Schumi was in the right.

amacachi

Ghost Train wrote: »

Sounds like it's not black and white regarding the rules, so it will be interesting to see what happens. Sounds like the safety car was being called in instead if the race being finished under the safety car.

You just contradicted yourself, it's perfectly black and white. :pac:

frostie500

There seems to be quite a lot of confusion about the safety car returning to the pits, it's in the regulations that the safety can not take the chequered flag first, that is the reason it pitted. A similar incident occured in the 99 Canadian Grand Prix when Frentzen's Jordan crashed at the end deploying the SC. At the time you couldn't pass until the line so this type of issue never arose.

By pitting prior to the end of the race to avoid the safety car taking the flag the track goes 'live' again once the drivers pass the safety car line. The confusion comes from an old rule fails to take into account the current regulations for safety cars

amacachi

frostie500 wrote: »

There seems to be quite a lot of confusion about the safety car returning to the pits, it's in the regulations that the safety can not take the chequered flag first, that is the reason it pitted. A similar incident occured in the 99 Canadian Grand Prix when Frentzen's Jordan crashed at the end deploying the SC. At the time you couldn't pass until the line so this type of issue never arose.

By pitting prior to the end of the race to avoid the safety car taking the flag the track goes 'live' again once the drivers pass the safety car line. The confusion comes from an old rule fails to take into account the current regulations for safety cars

There's two things can happen, either the race finishes under the safety car or it doesn't. Either way, the SC pulls in. If it finishes under the SC then there's no overtaking allowed, if it doesn't finish under the SC then overtaking is allowed.
The teams got the message that the safety car was coming in on that lap, the track was clear and green lights were flashing. I don't see how that can be interpreted as anything other than Schumacher and Mercedes being in the right.
*EDIT* It may just have been a mistake in protocol by Whiting, but even then once the mistake was made Schumacher was in the right.

Muff_Daddy

You can clearly see a green light at the Safety Car line, which means that they were racing at that moment in time.

If the intention was to end the race under the SC, then there should've been yellow flags and SC boards when the safety car pulled in, I also believe we wouldn't have had a 'safety car in on this lap' graphic. Therefore the race didn't end under the safety car in accordance with Art 40.13.....unless it WAS the intention of Charlie to end the race under the SC, and in that case the marshalls cocked up by green flagging!! It's a bit confuseing.

Either way, I don't think it's fair to punish Shumi for race controls mistakes.

EvilMonkey

Nice pic Muff_Daddy, I hate the way they take so long to decide these things.

I wasn't impressed with Kubica's start they nearly always loose a place when they point the car towards the other car rather than leave it straight. I know it was the dirty side but Massa got a decent enough start on it.

What was the story with Button, why didn't McLaren tell him to pit during the warm up lap? why didn't they tell him to pit after the first lap? And when the safety car came out why didn't they pit him, immediatly?

amacachi

EvilMonkey wrote: »

Nice pic Muff_Daddy, I hate the way they take so long to decide these things.

I wasn't impressed with Kubica's start they nearly always loose a place when they point the car towards the other car rather than leave it straight. I know it was the dirty side but Massa got a decent enough start on it.

What was the story with Button, why didn't McLaren tell him to pit during the warm up lap? why didn't they tell him to pit after the first lap? And when the safety car came out why didn't they pit him, immediatly?

Aye, hate to see cars pointing like that.

I'd like to know the answers to those questions, did Red Bull give McLaren there ****-upibility?

donspeekinglesh

Shumacher has received a 20 second penalty. Drops out of the points.

frostie500

donspeekinglesh wrote: »

Shumacher has received a 20 second penalty

That is absolute bullsh*t, cant believe that he has been given a penalty. With that being the case the FIA need to examine the training given to marshals for races as they clearly are waving green flags as the image above shows

amacachi

frostie500 wrote: »

That is absolute bullsh*t, cant believe that he has been given a penalty. With that being the case the FIA need to examine the training given to marshals for races as they clearly are waving green flags as the image above shows

Green lights too, and I'm assuming Whiting is in charge of that?

Race control ****ed up and Schumacher is being punished for it. This'll go to arbitration anyway.

Joneser

he has been penalised....what a load of s**t, http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport2/hi/motorsport/formula_one/8685542.stm

Sorry, i was a bit slow :P

Muff_Daddy

Looks like Damon finally got his revenge for Adelede 94 :pac:

But seriously, an absoloutly disgraceful decision.

cynder

Damon got his revenge in silverstone in 1995 , he knocked shumie out in front of his home crowd...... i was there....... at the tender age of 14/15

frostie500

amacachi wrote: »

Green lights too, and I'm assuming Whiting is in charge of that?

Race control ****ed up and Schumacher is being punished for it. This'll go to arbitration anyway.

Yeah Mercedes will definitly appeal this, and should get the verdict overturned but the FIA needs to tighten this regulation. Either you can race from the safety car line at all times or not at all and just go back to the old rule

amacachi

frostie500 wrote: »

Yeah Mercedes will definitly appeal this, and should get the verdict overturned but the FIA needs to tighten this regulation. Either you can race from the safety car line at all times or not at all and just go back to the old rule

To me the rules are clear, but the fact remains that on-track the exact same thing can happen but two different rules can apply. In this case there's no doubt in my mind he was in the right, a silly, silly decision.

Muff_Daddy

grindelwald wrote: »

Damon got his revenge in silverstone in 1995 , he knocked shumie out in front of his home crowd...... i was there....... at the tender age of 14/15

I know about that, and Monza 95, what I said was just said completely in jest.

EDIT* Just out of interest - how much influence do these ex driver stwards actually have in situations like this?

BANZAI_RUNNER

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

I know about that, and Monza 95, what I said was just said completely in jest.

in fairness how could Shumi /Mercedes get a fair hearing with Hill as a steward and Jean Todt the head of FIA , oh well i guess its off to Paris for the appeal hearing

Ghost Train

seems a bit harsh to hand out the penalty. You would think race control should have made it clearer by keeping yellow flags out. Will be talk about Damon having a hand in it and Ferrari favouritism now :pac:

Ghost Train

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

I know about that, and Monza 95, what I said was just said completely in jest.

EDIT* Just out of interest - how much influence do these ex driver stwards actually have in situations like this?

The way they talk about it's just offering guidence. Think Damon mentioned he was working with two guys in particular... not sure what the total number of stewards is

Muff_Daddy

Ghost Train wrote: »

The way they talk about it's just offering guidence. Think Damon mentioned he was working with two guys in particular... not sure what the total number of stewards is

Whoever it was that made the decision to peanilise Shumi, it was the worst decision since Fisi was robbed his moment of glory in Brazil 03. Hopefully the appeal process will go the same way this time as Fisi's did.

Ghost Train

Muff_Daddy wrote: »

Whoever it was that made the decision to peanilise Shumi, it was the worst decision since Fisi was robbed his moment of glory in Brazil 03. Hopefully the appeal process will go the same way this time as Fisi's did.

Maybe its a case that the race director screwed up a bit with the lights but the rules were broken and a penalty had to be issued. Hopefully some more info will be provided

amacachi

Ghost Train wrote: »

Maybe its a case that the race director screwed up a bit with the lights but the rules were broken and a penalty had to be issued. Hopefully some more info will be provided

He also sent out the "Safety Car in this lap message. Oh, and "Track clear". Oh, and instructed green flags to be waved. Then there was the lights.

GTE

That is not a good start to Jean Todd's reign as the boss.
That really was a genuinely horrible decision.
Given the driver read the conditions as a green flag, since there were green flags, then the biggest punishment for a cock up by the stewards and race control, who ever it was, should be a 1 place demotion. Basically resetting the way it "should" have finished.

Now one wonders if Webber canned it because of debris on the track (a race control/stewards matter) what would happen? Would the result be taken from who passed the first safety car line? If so what is the point in that? Essentially any race where the safety car comes in when it did today the race results are taken from the safety car line? Why was every car booting it down the road? It sounds like this rule of the safety car coming in when it did is just so the drivers of it dont have to go around again, because it seems that ludicrous.

That was a very bad decision by the stewards.

donspeekinglesh

frostie500 wrote: »

Yeah Mercedes will definitly appeal this, and should get the verdict overturned but the FIA needs to tighten this regulation. Either you can race from the safety car line at all times or not at all and just go back to the old rule

They should go back to the old way. Allowing racing before the sf line is stupid and adds only confusion to the sport.

Merc have said they'll appeal, but it will be disallowed. Drive-thru penalties (as this was) cannot be appealed.

donspeekinglesh

Ghost Train wrote: »

The way they talk about it's just offering guidence. Think Damon mentioned he was working with two guys in particular... not sure what the total number of stewards is

I think there were the four including Hill, who has one vote like the others.

Oblomov

I am inclined to think that personal favouritism has influenced the consideration of the Schuie incident...

Read the rules, and, subjectively, consider the circumstances.....

Of Course Brawn will point towards the instructions from the start marshals, the use of the green flag, but..the use of the green flag is to inform the drivers:Start/restart of session, Start/end of hazard/restart.

No amount of indignation will over ride the basic ruling for the safety car and the last lap ruling.

The argument that the safety car pulled off before the finish line is also included within the rules and had the safety car continued, an additional lap would have had to be completed and outside of the nominal race distance.

The cars are expected to hold position and cross the finish line as if under full course yellow, no overtaking.

The fact Damon Hill was present does not equate to a vengeance theory, he could easily be out voted by the Stewards and gain a bad reputation and be excluded from any further participation as an adviser.

amacachi

Oblomov wrote: »

I am inclined to think that personal favouritism has influenced the consideration of the Schuie incident...

Read the rules, and, subjectively, consider the circumstances.....

Of Course Brawn will point towards the instructions from the start marshals, the use of the green flag, but..the use of the green flag is to inform the drivers:Start/restart of session, Start/end of hazard/restart.

No amount of indignation will over ride the basic ruling for the safety car and the last lap ruling.

The argument that the safety car pulled off before the finish line is also included within the rules and had the safety car continued, an additional lap would have had to be completed and outside of the nominal race distance.

The cars are expected to hold position and cross the finish line as if under full course yellow, no overtaking.

The fact Damon Hill was present does not equate to a vengeance theory, he could easily be out voted by the Stewards and gain a bad reputation and be excluded from any further participation as an adviser.

Bull****. If the race is finishing under the safety car there wouldn't be notices sent out of "in this lap" and "track clear". The Safety Car came in, not because it had to, but because the track was clear and safe to race on. Had no notices been sent out then yes, the race finished under the SC.
If you want to try to say that it was a mistake there were 4 mistakes made by race control and/or the marshalls. If that's the case how can a driver be punished?

recyclebin

I don't see why alot of posters here are saying that schumacher should keep the place. The rules are very clear. Obviously neither Alonso or Schumacher knew the rules but thats hardly Hills, Todts or anyone elses fault.

There were new rules in GAA today and it was up to everyone to know about them. Just because the rules are more complicated in F1 doesnt give you an excuse to defend someone when they break them or not know about them.

mickdw

The worst decision in years. They told the teams that safety car was in, they gave the green flags, safety car lights went off.
At a minimum, it the safety car had kept its lights on, well then regardless of whether he turned into pits or not, everyone would have known not to pass.

Slutmonkey57b

mickdw wrote: »

The worst decision in years. They told the teams that safety car was in, they gave the green flags, safety car lights went off.
At a minimum, it the safety car had kept its lights on, well then regardless of whether he turned into pits or not, everyone would have known not to pass.

The teams DID know not to pass, because it's in the regulations that the teams were issued with.

In this case, Brawn/Schumi tried on one, but they're wrong.

It's harsh in terms of "not rewarding an overtake", but it's entirely fair. The penalty is laid down in the regulations. Had the stewards wanted to demote Schu one place to "reset" things, they can't. Maybe it will be done under appeal.

eoinbn

recyclebin wrote: »

I don't see why alot of posters here are saying that schumacher should keep the place. The rules are very clear. Obviously neither Alonso or Schumacher knew the rules but thats hardly Hills, Todts or anyone elses fault.

There were new rules in GAA today and it was up to everyone to know about them. Just because the rules are more complicated in F1 doesnt give you an excuse to defend someone when they break them or not know about them.

True the rules are clear, what isn't clear is why the safety car came. If it came in because the track was clear, which race control said it was, then the race was no longer under safety car conditions and overtaking should be allowed. Now if the race was to finish under the SC then the SC should of pitted on the last lap, like it did, but race control should not have sent a message to the teams to say that the SC was pitting on 'this lap'(78) and the marshals and race control should not of waved green flags.
So the problem isn't with the rule, it's how race control managed the last lap.

frostie500

recyclebin wrote: »

I don't see why alot of posters here are saying that schumacher should keep the place. The rules are very clear. Obviously neither Alonso or Schumacher knew the rules but thats hardly Hills, Todts or anyone elses fault.

There were new rules in GAA today and it was up to everyone to know about them. Just because the rules are more complicated in F1 doesnt give you an excuse to defend someone when they break them or not know about them.

The rules are not very clear as there is one set of rules for last lap of a race and another set of rules for the rest of the race. Its not the complexity of regulations that excuses Schumacher but the contradiction

Oblomov

Amachi, you are allowing personal ego to persuade to follow a totally inappropriate course.

Read the regs, get an informed understanding then stop call other people opinions B**sh1t.

The completion of the lap in which the safety car withdraws from the circuit is deemed to be a "SC" lap, oterwise the safety car does not complete the full lap and can.. as you so clearly illustrate, a mis-understanding of the rules.

The completion of the safety car lap will act as the complete lap. and overtaking can take place as soon as the start/finish line is passed.

The controversy amounts from people seeking to re-write the rules to give the driver a unfair advantage.

No more or no less.

Read the rules. Simple.

EvilMonkey

If the rules are so clear why did it take 2+ hours for a decision?

As far as i can tell both interpretations are correct. It should be absolutely clear what's going on to the teams. This is an FIA **** up by leaving ambiguity in the rules and if the race was finishing under safety car there should have been waved yellow flags and SC board and a yellow flag/SC light on the steering wheel.
I would love to know what all the teams were saying to their drivers before that finish to see hoe clear it was.

Charlie Whiting ****ed up Schumacher is paying.

donspeekinglesh

EvilMonkey wrote: »

I would love to know what all the teams were saying to their drivers before that finish to see hoe clear it was.

McLaren and Ferrari told their drivers no overtaking.

eoinbn wrote: »

So the problem isn't with the rule, it's how race control managed the last lap.

Absolutely.

I think the rule was broken, but there was genuine confusion introduced into the situation by race control.
Unfortunately the stewards didn't have the option of swapping the places back.

KenHy

Schumacher being punished is a terrible decision, the Green flags being waved restarted racing once they crossed the safety car line. As their is a different rule for the last lap that should have been made clear, by waving the green flag they cleared racing.

G-Money

Even though he got penalised, I think the psychological win that MSC got over Alonso was the main thing.

Oblomov

Parke Firme. .. the nominal time for any objections or complaints, then clarification of the complaint, gathering evidence, both from interested parties, from marshal's posts, the senior observers comments, then film available from both FIA circuit cameras, these are independent from the news film the public see. and consultation with a legal advisers as to the exact regs, etc. Then convening the hearing, priority given to any other objections or queries prior to the given complaint.

Then consideration, all interested parties, summary and judgement .... and finalise and make public. Notes taken of all information and evidence, it's considered a formal and legal hearing within the rules of the FIA. Anything, any quicker would be considered suspect and without full deliberation and consideration of all the evidence and full allowance of all witness statements, both written and verbal.

You can imagine, Brawn had a very concise and detailed presentation of evidence, ..... the TV version was virtually a thumbname of his full script.

So, 2 hours is fairly quick and mindful of previous seasons delays and the public comments .

Oblomov

Now, the rules and regulation... at each meeting , there are standing regulations, all the usual ,, the FIA rules for Formula One have been clarified and are given to each and every team at the beginning of each season. No exceptions, the familiarity of the rules...... team have been racing under the rules for some time. It is not a new and suddenly produced set, the minor modification are brought to the teams attention at the start of the season and each team has a full written copy. Drivers are reminded at the pre-race briefing from the Clark of the Course and/or the senior FIA official.

The rules within each national motor sport activity reflect the general consensus of the rules affecting FIA Formula one, anyone coming into the sport will be supplied, within the UK, it's a new Blue Book, giving the rules and any modified or new regs.... this encompasses everything from fire extinguishers to helmets to overalls and .. the list is extensive.

The rules are also available on CD/DVD for ..... so, to claim somebody might not be aware.... Brawn in particular has shown an indepth understanding, the time Michael Schumacher passed the winning line and then took his ten second penalty.. having passed the line whilst driving along the pits. Having delayed the 3 laps before taking the penalty and race finish. And, winning the race.

EvilMonkey

Oblomov wrote: »

Parke Firme. .. the nominal time for any objections or complaints, then clarification of the complaint, gathering evidence, both from interested parties, from marshal's posts, the senior observers comments, then film available from both FIA circuit cameras, these are independent from the news film the public see. and consultation with a legal advisers as to the exact regs, etc. Then convening the hearing, priority given to any other objections or queries prior to the given complaint.

Then consideration, all interested parties, summary and judgement .... and finalise and make public. Notes taken of all information and evidence, it's considered a formal and legal hearing within the rules of the FIA. Anything, any quicker would be considered suspect and without full deliberation and consideration of all the evidence and full allowance of all witness statements, both written and verbal.

You can imagine, Brawn had a very concise and detailed presentation of evidence, ..... the TV version was virtually a thumbname of his full script.

So, 2 hours is fairly quick and mindful of previous seasons delays and the public comments .

Yet if it something happens at an earlier point in the race it takes a couple of minutes to make the decision on drive through or not

It should be 1 hour max, probably 10 minutes if its black and white

Oblomov

It should be 1 hour max, probably 10 minutes if its black and white

Not possible............ you lose 30 minutes just for Parke Firme... teams submitting objections... validity of objections...... then hearing... collection of evidence.... observers statement, segment of video relating to incident.

Oblomov

The ten second penalties during the race are Clark of the course decisions, not usually undertaken by stewards. Rule infringement is different from written objection by the team or teams. If no objection is made and only referred to the stewards by a FIA official.

GTE

grandmaster wrote: »

Even though he got penalised, I think the psychological win that MSC got over Alonso was the main thing.

You have a point. I lost track of F1 at about 2002 and only got back into it last year when the BBC got the rights back so Ive been pretty skeptical about anything Legard says but he said that Msc won a battle to get back at Alonso for ending his F1 career or something like that.

It was still a great move catching out the sleeping Alonso.

amacachi

Oblomov wrote: »

Amachi, you are allowing personal ego to persuade to follow a totally inappropriate course.

Read the regs, get an informed understanding then stop call other people opinions B**sh1t.

The completion of the lap in which the safety car withdraws from the circuit is deemed to be a "SC" lap, oterwise the safety car does not complete the full lap and can.. as you so clearly illustrate, a mis-understanding of the rules.

The completion of the safety car lap will act as the complete lap. and overtaking can take place as soon as the start/finish line is passed.

The controversy amounts from people seeking to re-write the rules to give the driver a unfair advantage.

No more or no less.

Read the rules. Simple.

I read the regulations, and posted a piece.
There's a duality in the regulations, and the course the stewards took was to call the safety car in. Therefore the race did not finish under the safety car so the following should be followed.

40.11 When the clerk of the course decides it is safe to call in the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" will be displayed on the timing monitors and the car's orange lights will be extinguished This will be the signal to the teams and drivers that it will be entering the pit lane at the end of that lap.
At this point the first car in line behind the safety car may dictate the pace and, if necessary, fall more than ten car lengths behind it.
In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.
As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line. These will be displayed until the last car crosses the Line.

That sounds to me to be exactly what happened, so the SC had been called in, the race wasn't finishing under the SC, so overtaking was allowed from the SC line.

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Again, if the race ends while the SC is deployed, but it wasn't, it had been called in.

donspeekinglesh

bbk wrote: »

It was still a great move catching out the sleeping Alonso.

He was hardly sleeping - he was on tires that had done the previous 77 laps (and a dozen in practice), and the team had told him there'd be no overtaking before the flag.

TheChrisD

Maybe we need to look back at the last time a race was "ended" under the Safety Car where it pulled off at the last lap for the drivers to take the checkered flag. I know it has happened for.

Them compare what happened back then with what happened now, to see whether there was a genuine screw-up this time around.

BostonB

Is there late night highlights on any channel anywhere?

amacachi

TheChrisD wrote: »

Maybe we need to look back at the last time a race was "ended" under the Safety Car where it pulled off at the last lap for the drivers to take the checkered flag. I know it has happened for.

Them compare what happened back then with what happened now, to see whether there was a genuine screw-up this time around.

The regulations have changed for this year though as far as I know.

Muff_Daddy

TheChrisD wrote: »

Maybe we need to look back at the last time a race was "ended" under the Safety Car where it pulled off at the last lap for the drivers to take the checkered flag. I know it has happened for.

Them compare what happened back then with what happened now, to see whether there was a genuine screw-up this time around.

Australia last year. I seem to remember the race ended under yellows, but I could be wrong.