Formula 1 2010: Round 5 Monaco

Oblomov

In order to avoid the likelihood of accidents before the safety car returns to the pits, from the point at which the lights on the car are turned out drivers must proceed at a pace which involves no erratic acceleration or braking nor any other manoeuvre which is likely to endanger other drivers or impede the restart.

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking

There are none so blind as those that do not wish to see.

Obviously, the stewards did not concur with your interpretation of the rules.

amacachi

Oblomov wrote: »

There are none so blind as those that do not wish to see.

Obviously, the stewards did not concur with your interpretation of the rules.

Would tell you to look in a mirror but that would be an exercise in futility.

Overtaking is allowed from the SC line, so that first bit is irrelevant. For the second bit there's no mention of the fact that the SC was called into the pits, that the track was declared to be clear and that green flags were waving and green lights flashing, so the race didn't end under the safety car.

samsemtex

Oblomov wrote: »

There are none so blind as those that do not wish to see.

Obviously, the stewards did not concur with your interpretation of the rules.

Sorry buddy but you are very very wrong here. Under 40.13 the safety car is considered to still be out even if it pulls into the pits to allow the cars finish without a safety car in front. So basically Webber would have been the safety car and waved yellow flags should have remained out until the finish line.

Here is the rule about safety car deployment and track status.

from 40.4

When the order is given to deploy the safety car the message "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" will be displayed on the timing monitors and all marshal's posts will display waved yellow flags and "SC" boards for the duration of the intervention.

The message that was given to the teams on the last lap was:

"SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP"

If the race was to finish under the safety car why did the status change from SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED? Why were there no yellow flags? Why did all the drivers accelerate hard to the finish line?

You would be correct if there were yellow flags out and the message "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" was not given. But it was. Utter balls up by the stewards.

Kevski

According to Rule 40.13, If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking. The key phrase here is "whilst the safety car is deployed".

The following are the conditions which define a safety car period:

• "SAFETY CAR DEPLOYED" is displayed on the timing screens.
• The Safety Car's lights are turned on.
• The lights around the track are flashing yellow.
• The marshalls wave the yellow flags, along with displaying the Safety Car "SC" board.

Rule 40.13 can only be applied if, and only if, the race ends under these conditions.

However the Monaco GP did not end under Safety Car conditions and therefore Rule 40.13 does not apply.

The Race Director ended the Safety Car period before the end of the final lap, meaning that normal racing conditions applied once the cars had passed the first safety car line. The end of the safety car period and resumption of normal racing conditions was indicated by the following:

• "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" is displayed on the timing screens. It should be noted that this message comes from Race Control.
• The lights around the track turn green.
• The Marshalls display the green flag.

The image above shows the green light displayed at the safety car line, the marshalls waving the green flag and the green lights displayed at the finishing line, all of which mean that the race ended under normal racing conditions. If Rule 40.13 were to apply, all of the above should have been yellow.

Both the "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" message, and the safety car's lights being turned of can be seen here:

Ross Brawn's evidence on the matter can be seen here:

It is clear from these facts that the decision of the stewards was incorrect. Therefore Michael Schumacher should not have been penalised and 6th place is rightfully his.

BoardsRanger

As has been previously stated, had the safety car pitted and the yellow flags and "SC" boards remained out, then a penalty should be imposed.

But this is not the case here- the race did not end under safety car conditions. Ross Brawn's argument is valid, and i believe this uneducated penalty given to Michael will be overturned in due course.

Oblomov

well, suffice to say.. the stewards did not agree with your argument.

BoardsRanger

Oblomov wrote: »

well, suffice to say.. the stewards did not agree with your argument.

A decision in haste. Lets wait and see what the appeal ruling will say.

recyclebin

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

The "as normal" part of the rule could be argued as to why the yellow flags changed to green. The "safety car in this lap" message was as per the rules. The safety car was coming in on the final lap as that was what it was supposed to do.

I can't see Mercedes winning the appeal. If they do then surely Ferrari will appeal that decision.

Kevski

recyclebin wrote: »

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

The "as normal" part of the rule could be argued as to why the yellow flags changed to green. The "safety car in this lap" message was as per the rules. The safety car was coming in on the final lap as that was what it was supposed to do.

I can't see Mercedes winning the appeal. If they do then surely Ferrari will appeal that decision.

You can't have normal racing and not allow overtaking. Overtaking is allowed once the green flags are displayed and there's no arguing against that. Yellow flags should have been shown if the race was to proceed as normal without overtaking.

The point that's being made is that Race Control ended the safety car period when they displayed the "SAFETY CAR IN THIS LAP" message and the safety car turned its lights out. This means that the race was not under safety car conditions when it ended and Rule 40.13 should not have been applied.

frostie500

Prior to this season when a race ended behind a safety car drivers were not allowed to pass until they reached the start line, yellow flags were waved and the SC boards were shown trackside. Australia last year was finished under these conditions with Button driving uncontested to the finish line.

This year with racing allowed to overtake from the safety car line when the SC reentered pitlane the general consensus was that drivers would race to the line, why should the last lap be different to every other lap?

The immediate reaction of the racing fraternity was that Schumacher had made a successful manoeuvre. If paddock insiders fail to understand the regulations fully then how can the average punter be expected to understand, and accept such inherently flawed regulations.

This whole incident occurred because a rule was left in place from the previous regulations that contradicts the current regulations for the general rules on safety cars. The FIA needs to tighten the SC rules and have uniformity within them otherwise situations will arise like this again in the future

Frank Bullitt

One thing that might be overlooked in all of this is Mark Webber(the guy who won the race),he has seriously shown himself to be a challenger for the title now i think,also puts the rumors of Kimi going to Red Bull to bed as well,why would they sign Kimi with the 2 performances that Webber just put in?

BoardsRanger

Some of you guys are trying to argue irrelevant points. I dont think anyone is disputing that whilst under "safety car conditions", a driver cannot overtake on the last lap of a race when the safety car pulls in.

The only issue up for debate is what status the track was when the race finished- in other words- did the race finish under safety car conditions.

So, if we look as some (apologies for the poor quality) images of the finish in Melbourne 09, they should provide further clarity on the issue:

Here the safety car pulls in on the last lap to allow the drivers to cross the finish line


And here is Jenson crossing the finish line. Note the checkered flag and more importantly, note the yellow flags and the "SC" boards.



So, with this information at hand, and looking back to yesterdays race, when, as highlighted by previous posters, the race finished with green flags out and no "SC" boards out - it is quite clear that the race did not finish under safety car conditions- indeed, it finished under normal racing conditions and therefore, Schumacher was perfectly entitled to overtake. I think the appeal decision will reflect this. Case closed.

Cookie_Monster

Gintonious wrote: »

One thing that might be overlooked in all of this is Mark Webber(the guy who won the race),he has seriously shown himself to be a challenger for the title now i think,also puts the rumors of Kimi going to Red Bull to bed as well,why would they sign Kimi with the 2 performances that Webber just put in?

because Kimi is still a far superior driver. If Webber was in any other car this season he'd be languishing towards the back 3rd without question. He is where he is because the car is vastly better than anything else out there.

Frank Bullitt

BoardsRanger wrote: »

Some of you guys are trying to argue irrelevant points. I dont think anyone is disputing that whilst under "safety car conditions", a driver cannot overtake on the last lap of a race when the safety car pulls in.

The only issue up for debate is what status the track was when the race finished- in other words- did the race finish under safety car conditions.

So, if we look as some (apologies for the poor quality) images of the finish in Melbourne 09, they should provide further clarity on the issue:

Here the safety car pulls in on the last lap to allow the drivers to cross the finish line


And here is Jenson crossing the finish line. Note the checkered flag and more importantly, note the yellow flags and the "SC" boards.



So, with this information at hand, and looking back to yesterdays race, when, as highlighted by previous posters, the race finished with green flags out and no "SC" boards out - it is quite clear that the race did not finish under safety car conditions- indeed, it finished under normal racing conditions and therefore, Schumacher was perfectly entitled to overtake. I think the appeal decision will reflect this. Case closed.

Thats 2009 though,the new safety car rule came in this year so the Oz pics cant be compared,in 2009 you couldnt pass until the start finish line.

Frank Bullitt

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

because Kimi is still a far superior driver. If Webber was in any other car this season he'd be languishing towards the back 3rd without question. He is where he is because the car is vastly better than anything else out there.

And if Kimi didnt have a good car he wouldnt be winning races either,funnily enough he was at the race this week,looks like the subliminal tobacco advertising on the Ferrari worked on him anyway.

BoardsRanger

Gintonious wrote: »

Thats 2009 though,the new safety car rule came in this year so the Oz pics cant be compared,in 2009 you couldnt pass until the start finish line.

Yes i know new rules came into force this year- but the fact remains- if the race was to finish this year under safety car conditions- yellow flags and sc boards should be out. They were not.

BANZAI_RUNNER

Personally I think the FIA and the race stewards were caught out on this , there is a grey area in the rules ,so the only way to sort it out was to give Shumi a penalty and then wait for the appeal and see if their penalty is overturned, itf it is then they know they have a problem and will have to change the rules ,

Cookie_Monster

Do you think there would have been as big a deal about this if it was anyone else? Notably the Damon v Michael situation?

It would be interesting to know if Damon's opinion "pushed" the stewards decision towards the penalty and if so can he said to be acting purely professionally without bias...

Frank Bullitt

BoardsRanger wrote: »

Yes i know new rules came into force this year- but the fact remains- if the race was to finish this year under safety car conditions- yellow flags and sc boards should be out. They were not.

Agreed,it was a rather big cock up by the FIA,the rules need to be clearer for the drivers and teams.

Ghost Train

wonder will this just end like the spa incident

http://www.f1wolf.com/2008/09/the-spa-verdict-hamiltons-penalty-fia-rejects-mclarens-appeal.html

As many predicted, FIA rejected McLaren’s appeal against Lewis Hamilton’s 25 sec penalty for the chicane cutting back in Spa. The FIA’s reasoning – drive-through penalties could not be appealed:

“Article 152 of the International Sporting Code states that drive-through penalties are ‘not susceptible to appeal. The competitor Vodafone McLaren Mercedes appealed the Steward’s decision before the International Court of Appeal in a hearing in Paris on September 22nd. Having heard the explanations of the parties the Court has concluded that the appeal is inadmissible.”

Kevski

It's quite possible that it will end up like Spa 2008, although I think that that would be an unfair decision as it could be argued that Hamilton was in breach of the rules (as he was deemed to be). In this case, no rules were broken and the penalty was imposed as a result of a mis-application of the rules by the stewards so hopefully it will be reversed.

BANZAI_RUNNER

just checked the FIA Official site , looks like the stewards made another serious mistake early on in the race, according to their report, Webber was caught speeding in the pitlane for his first pitstop 70.9km/hr and all they gave him was a $2,200 fine.
I dont have the regs to hand but I thought a speeding offence during the race results in a drive through penalty

Cookie_Monster

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

just checked the FIA Official site , looks like the stewards made another serious mistake early on in the race, according to their report, Webber was caught speeding in the pitlane for his first pitstop 70.9km/hr and all they gave him was a $2,200 fine.
I dont have the regs to hand but I thought a speeding offence during the race results in a drive through penalty

yeah speeding in the pit lane in normally a drive through. Would have thought with the already reduced limit in Monaco they would have been extra strict on this

Ghost Train

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

just checked the FIA Official site , looks like the stewards made another serious mistake early on in the race, according to their report, Webber was caught speeding in the pitlane for his first pitstop 70.9km/hr and all they gave him was a $2,200 fine.
I dont have the regs to hand but I thought a speeding offence during the race results in a drive through penalty

news sites said it was before the race though
http://f1.gpupdate.net/en/formula-1-news/235012/webber-fined-2-200-for-pit-lane-speeding/

Monaco Grand Prix winner Mark Webber has received a fine of €2,200 (£1,900) for speeding in the Monte-Carlo pit lane before the start of the race on Sunday.

amacachi

Really the teams need to challenge the whole appeals not being allowed thing. They can give drive-throughs for anything and nothing can be done, which is stupid.

samsemtex

amacachi wrote: »

Really the teams need to challenge the whole appeals not being allowed thing. They can give drive-throughs for anything and nothing can be done, which is stupid.

I read on James Allens website (a comment made directly by James)that this rule has changed and appeals can now overturn drive thrus.

flazio

I think the fairest solution would be demote Schumi the one spot he gained rather then the 20 sec penalty.

Max Power1

flazio wrote: »

I think the fairest solution would be demote Schumi the one spot he gained rather then the 20 sec penalty.

Even though the rules clearly state that he shouldnt have been penalised?

Le King

flazio wrote: »

I think the fairest solution would be demote Schumi the one spot he gained rather then the 20 sec penalty.

That's ridiculous.

EvilMonkey

flazio wrote: »

I think the fairest solution would be demote Schumi the one spot he gained rather then the 20 sec penalty.

The fairest solution would be to let the result stand and clarify the rules.

Was Barrichello given a slap on the wrist or fine for throwing his steering wheel onto the racing line?

At first I that it was Hamilton that collected it but it seems it was Chandhok. I bet if it was Hamilton he defiantly would have been punished as McLaren would have made sure of it.

I don't by his story that he was trying to get out of the car as quick as possible, he threw it in frustration then took his time getting out.

Good to see the officials can ignore the rules(steering wheel must be left in the car) for one driver but must implement them for another driver, rather than clarify the rules and give the benefit of the doubt.

Slutmonkey57b

Truly mystified by people stating that the rules "clearly" state that the overtake was legal. The handling of the safety car by race control, in terms of changing to green lights, safety car in, was terrible, however the rules are quite clear.

Safety car conditions always last one full lap.
IF the safety car had started lap 77 and been called in on lap 77, the overtake would have been legal, because there was still 1 lap to do. The race was not finished.
BUT the saftey car started the last lap. So the race was finishing under safety car rules. And the rule states "the safety car will pull in to the pits and the drivers will continue to the finish with no overtaking".

Schumi made an opportuinistic overtake - good for him. Ross has a theory that they might be able to get away with it. But in this case, they can't. And the penalty for overtaking under the safety car is fixed. Would Schumi have preferred a 5 place grid penalty at the next race? I doubt it.

amacachi

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Safety car conditions always last one full lap.

What's the Safety Car line for then?

Kevski

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Safety car conditions always last one full lap.

Are you aware of the new rule for this year?

Oblomov

Mercedes has not decided whether to proceed with its appeal against the Monaco stewards' decision to penalise Michael Schumacher.

With the German team believing Schumacher was free to pass Fernando Alonso on Sunday, it immediately lodged notification of its intention to appeal the decision to demote him out of the points at the FIA's Court of Appeal.

The penalty itself, a 20-second time penalty in lieu of a drive-through, is not appealable, but the decision is.

Following the notification, Mercedes has 48 hours to formalise the application to appeal.

"No decision has been taken as yet," a spokeswoman for the Brackley based team said on Monday.

Oblomov

What's the Safety Car line for then?

Where's the magic line?

smooch71

Ironic isn't it.

Formula 1 comes under fire for lack of overtaking.

Schumacher overtakes and gets penalised.

Ridiculous rule. Races have finished under the safety car before haven't they?
So why not either finish under the safety car, or pull the f*cking thing off the track and let them race to the line.

frostie500

Oblomov wrote: »

Where's the magic line?

Are you serious? There is clearly a line painted across each track that F1 races on that signifies the point upon which racing can recommence after a safety car perior. I didn't think anyone else was disputing the use of the SC line and that in general safety car periods that Schumacher's move would have been legitimate.

In the case of Monaco the 'magic line' you so eloquently put it is at the pit entry and before where Schumi made his move. The discussion here, and in every other message board, centres mostly around why the green flags flew and lights were turned on if the track was still under caution

One of your earlier posts said the following:

Oblomov wrote: »

Read the regs, get an informed understanding......

Read the rules. Simple.

But it seems from your previous post that you lack an understanding of the current regulations governing the general use of safety cars

Slutmonkey57b

Kevski wrote: »

Are you aware of the new rule for this year?

amacachi wrote: »

What's the Safety Car line for then?

The safety car line is where the race can "restart", instead of the start/finish line.... UNLESS, as clearly stated in the rules, it is the last lap of the race, in which case the safety car line is ignored, because the race is over. There is no "next lap". The circuit is considered "clear", because the race is over. Once the last lap started under the safety car, that was it. End of. Other teams understood the rules, but it looked like Ross Brawn might be able to make the case that race control made a balls of it, therefore the move should stand. That argument didn't stand, and the rules were upheld.

Read my post again. Had the safety car been pulled in on Lap 77, then the move would be legitimate. Because it was the last lap, overtaking is forbidden on that lap, regardless of where the safety car is, what the flags say, etc etc.

amacachi

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

The safety car line is where the race can "restart", instead of the start/finish line.... UNLESS, as clearly stated in the rules, it is the last lap of the race, in which case the safety car line is ignored, because the race is over. There is no "next lap". The circuit is considered "clear", because the race is over. Once the last lap started under the safety car, that was it. End of. Other teams understood the rules, but it looked like Ross Brawn might be able to make the case that race control made a balls of it, therefore the move should stand. That argument didn't stand, and the rules were upheld.

Read my post again. Had the safety car been pulled in on Lap 77, then the move would be legitimate. Because it was the last lap, overtaking is forbidden on that lap, regardless of where the safety car is, what the flags say, etc etc.

We're reading it differently. The only place it says no overtaking allowed is if the race finishes under the safety car. If the race finishes under the SC the protocol seems to have been to change nothing on track, but have it pull off. This wasn't the case as far as I can tell, and the SC was called in, so it was race on.

Kevski

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

The safety car line is where the race can "restart", instead of the start/finish line.... UNLESS, as clearly stated in the rules, it is the last lap of the race, in which case the safety car line is ignored, because the race is over. There is no "next lap". The circuit is considered "clear", because the race is over. Once the last lap started under the safety car, that was it. End of. Other teams understood the rules, but it looked like Ross Brawn might be able to make the case that race control made a balls of it, therefore the move should stand. That argument didn't stand, and the rules were upheld.

Read my post again. Had the safety car been pulled in on Lap 77, then the move would be legitimate. Because it was the last lap, overtaking is forbidden on that lap, regardless of where the safety car is, what the flags say, etc etc.

I've re-read your post and don't agree with it.

When a safety car period ends, the safety car pulls into the pit lane and racing resumes as soon as the cars pass the safety car line. This applies regardless of what lap number it is and there is no rule stating that a safety car period can not end on the final lap. End of.

If the race had ended under safety car conditions (which it didn't), the safety car would have pulled into the pit lane at the end of the lap and Mark Webber would have acted as a pace car for the remainder of the lap.

These are two similar situations with the key difference being that yesterdays race did not end under safety car conditions, therefore overtaking was perfectly legal once past the safety car line.

Slutmonkey57b

Kevski wrote: »

....and there is no rule stating that a safety car period can not end on the final lap....

But that's exactly what the rule does say. The final lap is the end of the race, and if the safety car is out, then there is no overtaking, even after the SC pulls in to the pitlane.

zeris

If Mercedes appeal it'll be rejected under a technicality of 40.11; "As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line."

However, the whole situation is a balls up caused by Charlie Whiting easily solved by maintaining the yellow flags and SC sign between the SC line 1 and the finish line.

Kevski

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

But that's exactly what the rule does say. The final lap is the end of the race, and if the safety car is out, then there is no overtaking, even after the SC pulls in to the pitlane.

Here are the regulations which govern the usage of the safety car:
http://www.formula1.com/inside_f1/rules_and_regulations/sporting_regulations/8687/fia.html

Can you tell me which rule says that?

zeris

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

in which case the safety car line is ignored, because the race is over. There is no "next lap". The circuit is considered "clear", because the race is over.

So if Webber ran out of fuel coming around Noghes he would still win the race despite not crossing the finish line?

Kevski

zeris wrote: »

If Mercedes appeal it'll be rejected under a technicality of 40.11; "As the safety car is approaching the pit entry the yellow flags and SC boards will be withdrawn and replaced by waved green flags with green lights at the Line."

However, the whole situation is a balls up caused by Charlie Whiting easily solved by maintaining the yellow flags and SC sign between the SC line 1 and the finish line.

It can't be rejected for that reason because that rule applies when the safety car period comes to an end. The safety car period did come to an end on the last lap of the race so thats why the green flags came out.

zeris

Kevski wrote: »

It can't be rejected for that reason because that rule applies when the safety car period comes to an end. The safety car period did come to an end on the last lap of the race so thats why the green flags came out.

And did Schumacher see green lights at the line?

Kevski

zeris wrote: »

And did Schumacher see green lights at the line?

Yes he did.

zeris

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

But that's exactly what the rule does say. The final lap is the end of the race, and if the safety car is out, then there is no overtaking, even after the SC pulls in to the pitlane.

"40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed ...". We can agree that the end of the race is the finish line?

Rule "40.4 .....all marshal's posts will display waved yellow flags and "SC" boards for the duration of the intervention."

Tricksy eh?

zeris

Kevski wrote: »

Yes he did.

I stand corrected! I have been to races, often on the pit straight and I have never noticed what colour the lights where at the end of the race and just assumed they where red.

TheChrisD

zeris wrote: »

So if Webber ran out of fuel coming around Noghes he would still win the race despite not crossing the finish line?

No, because then he could be overtaken having had slowed down with an obvious problem.