Formula 1 2010: Round 5 Monaco

zeris

TheChrisD wrote: »

No, because then he could be overtaken having had slowed down with an obvious problem.

So if 40.7 - "if any car slows with an obvious problem." applies between the SC line 1 and the finish line on the last lap doesn't that mean the finish line marks the end of the race?

TheChrisD

zeris wrote: »

So if 40.7 - "if any car slows with an obvious problem." applies between the SC line 1 and the finish line on the last lap doesn't that mean the finish line marks the end of the race?

The finish line does mark the end of the race yes, but 40.7 only applies if the SC is still actively deployed at the time. I never said the SC was still out, you're just trying to twist words around.

In my view the FIA screwed up as teams were told that the SC would be coming in, were told the track was clear and were given green flags and green lights after SC line 1.
They did not do the same procedure as they did in Oz last year which was to keep the yellow flags and SC boards out, instead they withdrew them completely.

Try to compare this to another situation. What if the IndyCars decided to pull the pace car in on the last lap and let the drivers race to the line from the acceleration point out of Turn 4 (on an oval) to the start/finish line, rather than ending it under caution (albeit over there they keep the pace car out)?

BoardsRanger

From mercedesgp.com

On the final lap of the 2010 Monaco Grand Prix, MERCEDES GP PETRONAS instructed our drivers, Michael Schumacher and Nico Rosberg, to race from safety car line one until the finish line as permitted under articles 40.7 and 40.11.



MERCEDES GP PETRONAS were fully aware of article 40.13 which states that no overtaking is permitted if the race finishes under safety car conditions. However we believed that the combination of the race control messages ‘Safety Car in this lap’ and ‘Track Clear’ and the green flags and lights shown by the marshals after safety car line one indicated that the race was not finishing under the safety car and all drivers were free to race.



This opinion appears to have been shared by the majority of the teams with cars in the top ten positions who also gave their drivers instructions to race to the finish line.



It was clear from our discussions with the stewards after the race that they understood the reasons for our interpretation and acknowledged that this was a new and previously untested situation but ultimately disagreed with our interpretation.



MERCEDES GP PETRONAS would like to emphasise that we fully support the inclusion of past drivers on the stewards panel and are completely satisfied that the Monaco Grand Prix stewards acted professionally, impartially and properly in this matter.



The FIA has agreed to include article 40.13 on the agenda of the next Sporting Working Group for discussion and to consider the scale of post race penalties. We believe that the 20 second penalty imposed on Michael to be disproportionate in the circumstances.



Whilst we cannot be happy with the outcome, we are pleased that the FIA has recognised the reasons for our interpretation. Therefore in the best interests of the sport, MERCEDES GP PETRONAS will not be submitting an appeal.

Wrong decision. But then again- if the 20 second punishment cant be overturned then i supose i see their logic. Just cant see the stewards logic.

metzengerstein

i blame damon hill what a scumbag ,:D


very bad decision from the stewards,and for mecedes to give up like that

Slutmonkey57b

So Ross Brawn agrees entirely with my assessment - The rule was actually very clear (other teams like McLaren and Ferrari directly told their drivers no overtaking), but that Race Control's handling was poor.

Wrong decision. But then again- if the 20 second punishment cant be overturned then i supose i see their logic. Just cant see the stewards logic.

The steward's logic is "the rules". As Mercedes' statement indicates, the stewards understood why Mercedes might have been confused, but that the breach of the rules (and the defined punishments available) had to stand. The other punishment was a 5 place grid penalty at the next race - would Schumacher prefer that?

EvilMonkey

metzengerstein wrote: »

i blame damon hill what a scumbag ,:D


very bad decision from the stewards,and for mecedes to give up like that

What can they do the appeal would have just been rejected.

zeris

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

So Ross Brawn agrees entirely with my assessment - The rule was actually very clear (other teams like McLaren and Ferrari directly told their drivers no overtaking), but that Race Control's handling was poor.

No, the press release doesn't say that. Your assessment of the rules are incorrect.

Slutmonkey57b

zeris wrote: »

No, the press release doesn't say that. Your assessment of the rules are incorrect.

You now have:
The Stewards
The FIA
Charlie Whiting
Mercedes
Ferrari
McLaren
Andrew Benson
Keith Collatine

all disagreeing with you about the rules.

Yet you still claim I'm wrong?
Everyone who is actually involved in the incident agrees with me.

Oblomov

For Kevski

Can you tell me which rule says that?

40.13 If the race ends whilst the safety car is deployed it will enter the pit lane at the end of the last lap and the cars will take the chequered flag as normal without overtaking.

Latest info:

Alonso had put his trust in his team's advice. "I'm not 100% sure of the rules," he said. "It happened in Australia in 2009 when Jenson won and Barrichello was second and we all crossed the line in the same positions. I saw Lewis was very slow in the last lap and I asked the team, 'Are you sure we cannot overtake?' But they said 'No overtaking' – so when I saw Michael I was surprised."

But Schumacher, too, had been busy on the radio during that final lap, conferring with Ross Brawn, his team principal, who had been checking the possibilities. "We had the message from the FIA, 'Safety car in, track clear'," Schumacher said. "If they say the track is clear, then you race. I'm not a lawyer. Let them sort it out and then we'll know."

Given the stewards have access to this info at teh time of the hearing . I am not surprised at the final decision

frostie500

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

You now have:
The Stewards
The FIA
Charlie Whiting
Mercedes
Ferrari
McLaren
Andrew Benson
Keith Collatine

all disagreeing with you about the rules.

Yet you still claim I'm wrong?
Everyone who is actually involved in the incident agrees with me.

The point hasn't been about the regulation per say it was about why the green flags were waved on the track, its very clear that there is a rule in place that states that you cant race to the line if the safety car is out but its the contradiction in rules and the fact that the track went active that caused the confusion. If the track stayed yellow until the end there would have been no confusion what so ever as race control could then have pointed to the rule and everyone would have been happy. By waving greens race control has left itself open to making itself look foolish and to be honest you can take a view of "I'm right and your'e wrong" but for the most part people don't understand how a green flag means stay in single file and dont overtake until the chequered flag

zeris

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

You now have:
The Stewards
The FIA
Charlie Whiting
Mercedes
Ferrari
McLaren
Andrew Benson
Keith Collatine

all disagreeing with you about the rules.

Yet you still claim I'm wrong?
Everyone who is actually involved in the incident agrees with me.

I didn't realise this was a popularity contest.

From this press release Mercedes certainly don't agree with the decision.

I have already made my case in this thread why 40.13 didn't apply. I look forward to your response to those points rather than hiding behind a mob.

amacachi

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

You now have:
The Stewards
The FIA
Charlie Whiting
Mercedes
Ferrari
McLaren
Andrew Benson
Keith Collatine

all disagreeing with you about the rules.

Yet you still claim I'm wrong?
Everyone who is actually involved in the incident agrees with me.

People like Coldplay and voted for the Nazis. Ya can't trust people.

gigabit

grindelwald wrote: »

Damon got his revenge in silverstone in 1995 , he knocked shumie out in front of his home crowd...... i was there....... at the tender age of 14/15

Ah yes I remember the Hill lunge from 150 yards back. Then Hill crashed out in Germany and the fans went mental.

BANZAI_RUNNER wrote: »

in fairness how could Shumi /Mercedes get a fair hearing with Hill as a steward and Jean Todt the head of FIA , oh well i guess its off to Paris for the appeal hearing

More free publicity for Bernie.

grandmaster wrote: »

Even though he got penalised, I think the psychological win that MSC got over Alonso was the main thing.

Huge smile on MS's face in the after GP analysis. Great partying by the redbull boys too in the swimming pool.
http://thepiratebay.org/torrent/5567810/2010.05.16-F1.06.Monaco.Forum.BBCi_UK_%5BTDMK1%5D

BostonB wrote: »

Is there late night highlights on any channel anywhere?

Yea, red button, or go the torrent route.
http://thepiratebay.org/search/monaco/0/99/0

lord lucan

gigabit wrote: »

More free publicity for Bernie

But necessarily good publicity as more casual fans think F1 is gone to hell and you get penalised for overtaking(the ins and outs of FIA rules are not what a lot of fans understand or want to understand.).

Slutmonkey57b

zeris wrote: »

I didn't realise this was a popularity contest.

From this press release Mercedes certainly don't agree with the decision.

I have already made my case in this thread why 40.13 didn't apply. I look forward to your response to those points rather than hiding behind a mob.

Your conclusion as to why 40.13 "doesn't apply" is based on either flawed understanding of the rule, or wilful ignorance of it.

Stating "Well the lights were green and the safety car was in" does nothing about the "not if it's the last lap" proviso. As all the people listed above have stated, the rule itself is very clear. Mercedes thought they could avoid the rule because of the "in this lap" message. The FIA and the stewards have confirmed that is not the case. There is nothing more to be said on that point. Was race control's message about safety cars and green flags potentially confusing? Perhaps - but all the teams were aware of the rule, other teams stuck to it.

This is nothing more than a team spotting what they think is a potential gap in the rules and going for it. In this case, the gap wasn't there and they didn't make it. A bit like Trulli.

zeris

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

Stating "Well the lights were green and the safety car was in" does nothing about the "not if it's the last lap" proviso.

The rule is "if the race ends" and not "the last lap". Rule 43.1 adequately defines what the race end is.

Slutmonkey57b

And the race was going to continue onto the next lap, was it?
No!
Because there was no next lap.
Because the race was ending.
So the safety car pulled in on the last lap.
As per the rule.

mickdw

This is the worst decision I remember in years. Whoever gave the green flag message was the one at fault, not schumacher. Being of the opinion that F1 is an extremely bent sport, I was sure that schumi would be reinstated in 6th following a well publicised appeal. Pity that they have given up on it.

Oblomov

The protocol for flag sequence is clearly defined and is not controlled by which lap. The full course yellow flag and safety car board are withdrawn and an obligatory green flag goes out to indicate the circuit is now clear. The conditions for the green flag are not reliant on which lap it's used.

It does not mean gentlemen, start racing again pnly that it is safe to proceed at racing speeds, it doesn't mean everyone but Michael Schumacher must obey the rules, it clearly indicates the circuit is clear.

smooch71

Look lads, ye could argue the toss about this till the cows come home.

The facts are the rule was not clearly written and seems to contradict itself and appears open to either interpretation.

I suggest a new discussion:

Hamilton's a twat, yes or no?

Cookie_Monster

smooch71 wrote: »

I suggest a new discussion:

Hamilton's a twat, yes or no?

Yes, end of discussion, everyone knows it :pac:

vincenzolorenzo

Yeah i think at this stage there's no disputing the fact that he did break the rule. The problem is thats its a completely daft rule.

On a separate topic altogether - did anyone else notice how many times the 88 race and senna crashing out etc was mentioned during the race (especially by the gobsh*te Legard). I reckoned it must have come up in commentary (and pre-race) at least 10 times!

lord lucan

vincenzolorenzo wrote: »

Yeah i think at this stage there's no disputing the fact that he did break the rule. The problem is thats its a completely daft rule.

On a separate topic altogether - did anyone else notice how many times the 88 race and senna crashing out etc was mentioned during the race (especially by the gobsh*te Legard). I reckoned it must have come up in commentary (and pre-race) at least 10 times!

Yep,he's as annoying as ****. Every race he keeps pointing out who's on soft tyres,pointing out that the green stripe is the indicator like he's got some sort of insider info or he knows everything about F1. I hate him. I'd switch to the 5 live coverage but i enjoy Brundles insights.

vincenzolorenzo

lord lucan wrote: »

Yep,he's as annoying as ****. Every race he keeps pointing out who's on soft tyres,pointing out that the green stripe is the indicator like he's got some sort of insider info or he knows everything about F1. I hate him. I'd switch to the 5 live coverage but i enjoy Brundles insights.

Yeah i'm pretty much the same, big fan of Brundle's commentary. plus on 5live they keep giving out football scores etc which is annoying. Its a shame really cos i reckon the 5live commentators are deadly!

GTE

smooch71 wrote: »

Look lads, ye could argue the toss about this till the cows come home.

The facts are the rule was not clearly written and seems to contradict itself and appears open to either interpretation.

I suggest a new discussion:

Hamilton's a twat, yes or no?

And Button has been an absolute baby the past few races.

smooch71

bbk wrote: »

And Button has been an absolute baby the past few races.

Yes I agree with this.

I had new found respect for Button in recent years. Particularly when he was driving a crap car and never seemed afraid to say it as it was.

But these days he seems to be just turning into a whinger when things aren't going his way.

vincenzolorenzo

Lot of whinging over the past few races alright. If he's not careful he could turn into the new mansell :rolleyes:

zeris

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

And the race was going to continue onto the next lap, was it?
No!
Because there was no next lap.
Because the race was ending.
So the safety car pulled in on the last lap.
As per the rule.

Rather than make up a narrative for the end of the race I will just say the rule:

43) FINISH
43.1 The end-of-race signal will be given at the Line as soon as the leading car has covered the full race distance in accordance with Article 5.3.

recyclebin

Another topic for discussion. How did Barichello get away with throwing his steering wheel onto the circuit into the path of oncoming cars. The stewards excuse is that they were too busy.

http://www.pitpass.com/fes_php/pitpass_news_item.php?fes_art_id=40861

Oblomov

But, where did it go???

Grim.

Oblomov wrote: »

But, where did it go???

its now a fine layer of carbon dust on the streets on Monaco

EvilMonkey

Grim. wrote: »

its now a fine layer of carbon dust on the streets on Monaco

According to Chandhok's twitter, it still works!

My good mate Jonathan Williams has just text me to say Rubens' steering still works despite 2 HRTF1 cars running over it - Impressive !!!

http://twitter.com/karunchandhok/status/14179599484

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Some backmarker ran over it if I remember correctly.

Yeah for some reason the race director decided to show a replay of it just as the safety car was pulling in and the race about to restart. :rolleyes:

It was Chandhok that hit it initially then Senna in the tunnel.

Ghost Train

Yep I heard the marshels picked up the wheel down near the tunnel

Cookie_Monster

Travelled quite a way didn't it!

I'd be inclined to believe Rubens, that he threw it out in order to get out of his "backwards on fire car" as quick as possible, if only cos it was funny to see

PJTierney

Slutmonkey57b wrote: »

And the race was going to continue onto the next lap, was it?
No!
Because there was no next lap.
Because the race was ending.
So the safety car pulled in on the last lap.
As per the rule.

That rule exists only to make the finish look like a race, it's a farce.

I think it's Nascar that have a '2 green laps to flag rule' where if the SC would finish the race, the race is extended by 2 laps so that there is an actual race at the end.

Oblomov

That rule exists only to make the finish look like a race, it's a farce.

Consider, why do they use the safety car, full course yellow .... because it is not safe to race.

Then when it is cleared. everything resumes. except on the last lap, because it is considered a risk over a considerable short distance. The length of time the safety car is out, the rate of clearance of any debris, the all clear radio'd to all marshal's posts and then....... but.

The safety car stayed out... the short distance between the the pit lane entrance and the finish line for the end of the race is not considered feasible for racing.

Consider Alonso actions in avoiding Schumacher's charge past, the Ferrari had to take unnecessary action to maintain his safety.

With the complicity of the team, one driver sort to gain an advantage when the rules are understood by the remainder of the teams.

The conversation between driver and pit lane clearly indicates a total disregard for the rules and an attempt to cheat, again.

Ghost Train

Oblomov wrote: »

Consider, why do they use the safety car, full course yellow .... because it is not safe to race.

Then when it is cleared. everything resumes. except on the last lap, because it is considered a risk over a considerable short distance. The length of time the safety car is out, the rate of clearance of any debris, the all clear radio'd to all marshal's posts and then....... but.

The safety car stayed out... the short distance between the the pit lane entrance and the finish line for the end of the race is not considered feasible for racing.

Consider Alonso actions in avoiding Schumacher's charge past, the Ferrari had to take unnecessary action to maintain his safety.

With the complicity of the team, one driver sort to gain an advantage when the rules are understood by the remainder of the teams.

The conversation between driver and pit lane clearly indicates a total disregard for the rules and an attempt to cheat, again.

well the redbulls looked like they were racing to the line

don't know what you about taken unnessesary action... only that he wasn't expecting to be racing

I think it more down to new safety car line creating some confusion, in previous years there was no confusion because there was just the finish line. One or two of the teams were interpreting the situation differently. What its shown is the rules need slightly more clarification for the last lap safety car line, flag situation, so the teams and race control and FIA all know what to do next time

Nascar rule can add some excitement, but not many F1 races finish behind the safety car so not much point in it, plus with refueling banned it might be problematic extending the race :pac:

lord lucan

Ghost Train wrote: »

Nascar rule can add some excitement, but not many F1 races finish behind the safety car so not much point in it, plus with refueling banned it might be problematic extending the race :pac:

Happens a lot in Nascar,cars running on fumes,especially if they go to a third restart to try finish under green. Great craic!:pac:

Frank Bullitt

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6166100/Fernandes-wants-the-end-of-blue-flags

Fernandes wants an end to blue flags, cant see that going down well at all.

vincenzolorenzo

Gintonious wrote: »

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6166100/Fernandes-wants-the-end-of-blue-flags

Fernandes wants an end to blue flags, cant see that going down well at all.

yeah not a hope of it happening unfortunately even though i reckon it would be great. Horrid annoying last weekend when Alonso was getting thick behind DiGrassi, and they were racing for position! Not a fan of blue flags at all!

amacachi

Gintonious wrote: »

http://www.planet-f1.com/news/3213/6166100/Fernandes-wants-the-end-of-blue-flags

Fernandes wants an end to blue flags, cant see that going down well at all.

Some amount of crap coming out of his mouth. The lack of blue flags in NASCAR is more or less fine because unless a driver has a problem with the guy lapping him it's easy enough to get offline without losing much time on the longer ovals. On the shorter ovals there's too many cars to have them constantly pull over. On the road courses it's rare for anyone to go a lap down unless they've crashed so they're at the back of the pack anyway.
In Indycar on the ovals again, there's planty of room for people to get out of the way, while on the road courses, well, there's been more than once a backmarker ****ed up the result of a race. :pac:

zeris

Oblomov wrote: »

Consider Alonso actions in avoiding Schumacher's charge past, the Ferrari had to take unnecessary action to maintain his safety.

Consider the pace set by Webber. Didn't he know no one could overtake him?

Oblomov wrote: »

With the complicity of the team, one driver sort to gain an advantage when the rules are understood by the remainder of the teams.

I look forward to links of radio conversations or transcripts backing up your claim that the rule was understood by the remainder of the teams.

Oblomov wrote: »

The conversation between driver and pit lane clearly indicates a total disregard for the rules and an attempt to cheat, again.

I can see your an impartial agent with no agenda.

mickdw

Oblomov wrote: »

Consider Alonso actions in avoiding Schumacher's charge past, the Ferrari had to take unnecessary action to maintain his safety.

Ya right & him using as much right boot as he could when he realised he was caught out, to the point of being very sideways. The sideways was not due to avoiding action, thats for sure.

Oblomov

Were we watching the same action... if schuie hadn't moved then no need to try and recover........

Had Herr Schumacher retained his position..instead of charging thru.... then ... race end .. all in same position and no need for sillies.

zeris

Oblomov wrote: »

Were we watching the same action... if schuie hadn't moved then no need to try and recover........

Had Herr Schumacher retained his position..instead of charging thru.... then ... race end .. all in same position and no need for sillies.

Why would a racing driver on a clear racing circuit with a green flag choose the race? Hmm, tricky question.

zeris

Oblomov wrote: »

when the rules are understood by the remainder of the teams.

Why don't you show us the evidence of your claim or admit your talking rubbish.

I'll start with this (obviously it is second hand evidence so he could be wrong):

Taken from http://www.bbc.co.uk/blogs/andrewbenson/2010/05/why_schumacher_broke_the_rules.html

I am told that of the six teams with drivers in the top 10, three of them told their drivers they could overtake, two of them said the race was effectively over and they could not, and one of them said they could race, but not overtake.

Oblomov

The understanding amongst drivers is that the safety lap ends as the cars cross the start/finish line of the lap the safety car goes into the pits.....

I don't know how long you've been around race circuits but the general understanding of the vast majority of drivers confirms this.

You can make all the silly accusation of talking rubbish but Schumacher was penalised....end of debate.

A point that I have consistently upheld.

amacachi

Oblomov wrote: »

The understanding amongst drivers is that the safety lap ends as the cars cross the start/finish line of the lap the safety car goes into the pits.....

I don't know how long you've been around race circuits but the general understanding of the vast majority of drivers confirms this.

You can make all the silly accusation of talking rubbish but Schumacher was penalised....end of debate.

A point that I have consistently upheld.

Racing doesn't commence until the S/F line would be a nearly universally accepted point in these areas, but that changed this year. Racing starts when the SC comes in, again that's changed this year for the last lap.
You insisted that every team and driver thought it was a case of just crossing the line, when it appears at least half thought that they were ok to overtake.

vincenzolorenzo

Oblomov wrote: »

The understanding amongst drivers is that the safety lap ends as the cars cross the start/finish line of the lap the safety car goes into the pits.....

I don't know how long you've been around race circuits but the general understanding of the vast majority of drivers confirms this.

You can make all the silly accusation of talking rubbish but Schumacher was penalised....end of debate.

A point that I have consistently upheld.

Jesus you're the most anti schumacher head i've heard in a long time, and i've heard quite a few. The whole issue with monaco this year was that the rule had been changed - this year the racing resumes once the pack has crossed the safety car line, except in the case when its the last lap of the race. in that case the leading car leads them over the line in formation. Thats the rule as it stands now. To me its a completely daft rule but anyway thats just my opinion. The problem was the marshals obviously didn't read up on the new rules too well as they were showing green flags.

Green flags generally indicate racing has resumed and the caution period has ended. To quote your good self: "I don't know how long you've been around race circuits but the general understanding of the vast majority of drivers confirms this."

zeris

Oblomov wrote: »

The understanding amongst drivers is that the safety lap ends as the cars cross the start/finish line of the lap the safety car goes into the pits.....

I don't know how long you've been around race circuits but the general understanding of the vast majority of drivers confirms this.

You can make all the silly accusation of talking rubbish but Schumacher was penalised....end of debate.

A point that I have consistently upheld.

Ah, so the line is changed from all the other teams understood to now all the other drivers understood. Any evidence to back this up?