Shape shifting alien reptiles

thecommander

mysterious wrote: »

Yes we are been serious, welcome to the real world, beyond the illusions of this matrix, of work, eat McDonalds, watch T.V and drink beer.

They put those shows on T.V to trick your mind and put the truth in front of you so you dont connect this with reality.

Same ****, different thread. Anything new to add to the discussion?

mysterious

thecommander wrote: »

Same ****, different thread. Anything new to add to the discussion?

What an intellegent well mannered reply. Why are you here if you can't control yourself or handle other people's views on the actual reality we are discussing. Other people can seem to discuss this reasonably well.

It's your problem not mine.:)

Nick Dolan

Right well the idea of the "mainstream " media being wholly out there to trick is wrong, flat out. Many organisations have slants and angles and thats infact why they arent all in league with each other. And where have CTers learned their hidden insights?......the Media! But my main gripe is the last posters view thats it isnt crazy or harmless to believe in CTs because ive just recently been arguing the same thing with a friend of mine. He shrugged and said "so what" and i kept saying that no, its not ok. Like the people trying to spread 2012 paranoia. Its a non event cooked up to sell books but how many people are hearing all this stuff and getting worried? Same with the shape shifting aliens baloney, someone somewhere is getting scared silly and maybe even worse some dude is cleaning a gun somewhere, cos he reckons that wierd dude down the street is an alien, and he has to defend his planet.

Torakx

I just think that the attitude some people have to others here is ignorant when we consider the stuff that people have believed through history.
We cant stop people believing propoganda or rumours just as much as we cant stop them believing the truth if thats is where they happen to stand.
It is how it is and trying to force people to change their belief system through critic will not work.
I tend to take another route and hope to meet people half way so that at least there is some balance in both our insanities or sanities whichever may be the case.
As for the guy down the road keeping his gun loaded or being intensely paranoid about rumours that is his perogative and i think if he is to take things such as this topic so much to heart that he would chance risking other lives or his own happyness then he will just as quickly eat up all other propoganda that is naturally spreading across the internet due to many different agendas of people.
Since icant stop the spread of propoganda i decided to at least entertain peoples views and keep an open mind.After all if it is acceptable to the majority to believe in God then it should be just as acceptable to believe in an alien species.
The only difference for me is that the aliens theory in general is more plausible to me than the god theory in general.
Most likely if there is a creator of man it is something in between the two and thats ussually where i like to stand right on the fence hehe

Also i have the idea in my head that making good relations with other people creates an atmosphere between the two on a sub-conscious level that allows them to accept what i have to say more so than someone who does not feel they are on the same "level" as me.
I happen to get this effect more with "ct'ers" i think because they are ussually more openminded and easier to get along with in general because of this.
Not that all the posters here who dont post CT's are on the opposite scale of things,just that the people who post ct's allow me to support them and build relations but the ones heavily criticising me or others do not leave themselves open for good relations which could help them get their points across to people better.

Nick Dolan

I see a huge difference between open minded and criticaly minded.I dont think we should be thinking "hey maybe your right" to stuff, we should always be thinking "Prove it!". And of course theres a difference between people interested in the various CTs and guys who go out trying to convince people not to vaccinate there kids, or guys who go out to con you into buying their Shapeshifter book. You are saying the same points my friend said, so what if people believe crazy things, if they aint hurting nobody. Whereas I was arguing that untrue beliefs (such as there are lizard aliens among us) do cause harm. I won the debate and he gave in, but that was the only way he could get to shut me up and stop boring him

TalkieWalkie

I have though a lot recently about the differences between CT'rs and skeptics. CT'rs = the glass is half full, in my opinion.
I have come to the conclusion that skeptics are afraid or simply cant handle the truth and their denial is simply a coping mechanism.
And the truth is...
We now know we are born into dept, this dept can never be repaid, this dept is not even real, it's a fabrication, yet we work our whole lives trying to repay it. We believe we are free right ?
How can we be free is we are born into debt ? How can we be free is there is a tax on our flesh and blood ? A tax just for being born...
This is enslavement...
This is factual information, there is no CT here, it's a fact
Yet skeptics say this is not a matrix "your nutz" etc
ya gotta laugh

It is the awake and aware, the Sovereign souls and the open minds and hearts who will take us to the next level.
The fearful, stupid, ignorant slave will never move on because he is comfortable... as long as he has his little distracting toys like tv, xbox and porno mags/vids.

Now I'm not saying the all skeptics are stupid ignorant fools living in fear and denial.... only about 99% are

Torakx

Nick Dolan wrote: »

I see a huge difference between open minded and criticaly minded.I dont think we should be thinking "hey maybe your right" to stuff, we should always be thinking "Prove it!". And of course theres a difference between people interested in the various CTs and guys who go out trying to convince people not to vaccinate there kids, or guys who go out to con you into buying their Shapeshifter book. You are saying the same points my friend said, so what if people believe crazy things, if they aint hurting nobody. Whereas I was arguing that untrue beliefs (such as there are lizard aliens among us) do cause harm. I won the debate and he gave in, but that was the only way he could get to shut me up and stop boring him

Hehe just because your friend saw no way to convince you rationally of his point doesnt mean you won the arguement
I have a friend who likes to argue any point i care to make on any subject(even if he doesnt believe what he is saying as long as its opposite of what i just said),sometimes he will sayone thing and a week later will agree with the thing he argued against.So i will mostly just stop talking and wait for him to finish talking AT me.An arguement isnt a discussion imo.When people refuse to even allow you to talk in my case i just concede to dissagree without explaining to them why, as its sometimes pointless.
Im sure your not that bad but it shows two types of people.Those who have a strong need to impress their views on others and those who can accept that they cannot fix everyone.
Besides that i think variety is the spice of life.
And to be perfectly honest i would much much more love to sit in a pub and chat to people who believe in aliens and ct's etc than people who appear to argue about anything that does not fit into their reality.
It took me a while but eventually i accepted i cant know everything and its possible others are right and i am wrong.
thats what an open minded person is to me.They dont have to be open to believing what your saying,but just open minded enough todiscuss the possibilities in a rational calm manor.
I still believe doing this helps keeping a discussion from turning into an arguement which imo creates a defense in the other person which prevents them from agreeing with the agressor.
Im not spiteful or ever angry at my friend because i totally understand why this happens.I just cant stop it from happening when it does and it prevents alot of good discussions
You are right about people goign out talking about vacinnes etc i am kind of wary of this because while i myself would not accept any flu shot or vacinne now i would not advise my sister to not get a vacinne for her baby because there is a chance i may be wrong and i dont take chances.
So i can see you point for sure.I just think we cannot stop everyone from doing this..but i believe my point still stands that should you wish to my comments contain the ideas or frame of mind to at least make that job easier.
When you come across somebody with an irational ideology a rational ideology isnt going to be agreeable in many cases,so another tactic is needed.Think of it as undermining in a caring way

mysterious

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

I have though a lot recently about the differences between CT'rs and skeptics. CT'rs = the glass is half full, in my opinion.
I have come to the conclusion that skeptics are afraid or simply cant handle the truth and their denial is simply a coping mechanism.
And the truth is...
We now know we are born into dept, this dept can never be repaid, this dept is not even real, it's a fabrication, yet we work our whole lives trying to repay it. We believe we are free right ?
How can we be free is we are born into debt ? How can we be free is there is a tax on our flesh and blood ? A tax just for being born...
This is enslavement...
This is factual information, there is no CT here, it's a fact
Yet skeptics say this is not a matrix "your nutz" etc
ya gotta laugh

It is the awake and aware, the Sovereign souls and the open minds and hearts who will take us to the next level.
The fearful, stupid, ignorant slave will never move on because he is comfortable... as long as he has his little distracting toys like tv, xbox and porno mags/vids.

Now I'm not saying the all skeptics are stupid ignorant fools living in fear and denial.... only about 99% are

Alot of Skeptics are in denial, like "!most" people. it's not just to skeptics. I think 99% of people are just in denial about reality. Look at the world de-Nial..

Every hear of a river flow backwards. I haven't. But most people would rather believe that illusion than face reality.:D

No no, it can't be, it just can't be real oh no. Run.

K-9

I don't know. Maybe in Ireland, because of the Catholic Church, we are more skeptic here?

We will not believe stuff without some evidence for it? Some man on the Internet doesn't really cut it!

Nick Dolan

Nope its CTers (And thats a very large umbrella term) who cant handle ordinar, non- exciting thruth. They need something dramatic and explosive, a huge plan that only they are smart enough to see. A sceptic needs some proper compelling evidence before he swallows some of the outthere stuff. For instance whats the proof for the whole lizard people thing beside someones eye twitching on a video.

espinolman

Nick Dolan wrote: »

For instance whats the proof for the whole lizard people thing beside someones eye twitching on a video.

Were they not here in Ireland and did saint patrick not drive them out !

mysterious

Nick Dolan wrote: »

Nope its CTers (And thats a very large umbrella term) who cant handle ordinar, non- exciting thruth. They need something dramatic and explosive, a huge plan that only they are smart enough to see. A sceptic needs some proper compelling evidence before he swallows some of the outthere stuff. For instance whats the proof for the whole lizard people thing beside someones eye twitching on a video.

What are you on about?:D

Seriously dude, there is more to reality than, just the monotone, CNN and what the governments say. Seriously like. You don't have to be a C.Ter to know this. The proof is out there and the truth is out there, you need to start been responsible for it. Does that make it any more obvious to you?

"Compelling evidence"
Good hard massive facts"
"solid proof of this"
"constructive evidence"

This kind of crap is like trying to measure the density of this room. Find out what's real and stop depending on others. Most of all please stop blaming a group of people for your real lack of research into topics you know nothing about. It makes you look more silly than anyone your judging.

caseyann

K-9 wrote: »

I don't know. Maybe in Ireland, because of the Catholic Church, we are more skeptic here?

We will not believe stuff without some evidence for it? Some man on the Internet doesn't really cut it!

Its called been conditioned,only what you are told is logic is logic.Other wise you are on the outside of the box,and to step out of that box means to those still in the box you are irrational and wrong.Same as you are conditioned to work everyday and eat everyday,buy the clothes in the shop everyday.Live in the box

Torakx

With all these new age movement groups i think there has been purposefully added too much crap inside the box so wether you are on the outside or the inside of "the box" it is very hard to discern what is going on for sure.
Already we had too much mainstream crap.Its just over the top in the last 50 years now.

K-9

Fair enough, as long as you don't throw the baby out with the bath water.

Nick Dolan

Well i dont want to drag this thread down the old CT vs non CT mud slinging route, so ill just disagree with the "think outside the box" sentiments.

More Reptile stuff please. From what ive heard its David Ickes way of selling books

mugs1

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

I have though a lot recently about the differences between CT'rs and skeptics. CT'rs = the glass is half full, in my opinion

Believing the World is born into slavery and we are all f***ed because the world is controlled by shapeshifting lizards who eat our Babies, doesn't sound like a very "class is half full" mentallity to me!

mysterious

mugs1 wrote: »

Believing the World is born into slavery and we are all f***ed because the world is controlled by shapeshifting lizards who eat our Babies, doesn't sound like a very "class is half full" mentallity to me!

Oh god......:rolleyes: What's normal? Everything you don't know or understand I guess?:rolleyes:

Zombienosh

mysterious wrote: »

Oh god......:rolleyes: What's normal? Everything you don't know or understand I guess?:rolleyes:

shhh, gladiators is on tv
Go back to sleep.

bonkey

mysterious wrote: »

Oh refresh my memory Bonkey;) I don't waste my time "trying" to prove to you what exist or doesn't. Not what I'm here for.

I didn't ask you to prove anything, mysterious.

I commented that you were unwilling or unable to produce evidence.

Have you any evidence against it?

Nope. I've got no evidence against Hogwarts really existing as a school of Wizardry, either, nor against Santa, nor against invisible pink unicorns living at the bottom of my garden.

In fact, there are is an infinite (used literally, not figuratively) number of things I don't have evidence against.

I'm open to considering any of them to be actually possible....but I don't consider someone making a claim along the lines of of "<something> is true" to be an indication that it might be. Their reasoning for believing it to be true could be an indication. The evidence that led them to believe it to be true could also be.

To date, you, haven't provided either. I may be wrong, but I seem to recall that the last time you made a claim about giants, you also didn't provide either.

I will post pictures on what I'm pointing on when I get my laptop. I'm not on it at the moment, so you will have to wait for that.

That would be really cool.

TalkieWalkie

mugs1 wrote: »

Believing the World is born into slavery and we are all f***ed because the world is controlled by shapeshifting lizards who eat our Babies, doesn't sound like a very "class is half full" mentallity to me!

The world is born into slavery, you are forced to pay income tax on you're flesh and blood practically for you're whole life, just to survive, live. Now they want you to pay tax on water, everything you buy, consume, tolls and borders. That's slavery from any angle you look at it.

I don't believe anyone mentioned "lizards", they are called reptilians and just because you can't see them does not mean they do not exist. You can't see a magnetic force or gravity but it's there. Billions of people believe in god's they can't see, are you going to ridicule them all because you can not see the god ?
I don't recall anyone mentioning that reptilians eat babies, but if they do exist, would it be such a big surprise if they did eat babies ? 50,000 children go missing every year in the U.S alone.

Being open to the possibility that reptilians or other E.T's, spirituality, ascension, ghosts, moon matrix, dimensions or ufo's is definitely a "glass is half full attitude". To deny them because they sound a bit wild or because you can not see them is not only a "glass is half empty" attitude, but is ignorant, arrogant and closed minded.

NckD

If being open minded means you swallow every bit of nonsence being floated around then ill stay sceptic and closed minded. Saying prove it isnt arrogant its called common sence. This Reptilian stuff was made up by Mr Icke to sell his books, its not the glass he wants to be half full, its his wallet. And if ya dont want to pay tax, you can move to Monaco

TalkieWalkie

No Nick Dolan, it doesn't mean you have to swallow it but simply be open to the possibility. If others believe it, perhaps they have reason to. There is no need to ridicule others beliefs. simples

EDIT: It wasn't made up by mr Icke, he did research and found people who had seen reptilians or heard about them. In particuliar was Credo Mutwa.
So he didn't make it up, he reported his findings. I don't think he ever claimned to have seen one.

Do you Want to pay tax ? I didn't say I didnt want to either !! I said it was slavery.

So, you're whole post was absolute sh1te.

NckD

I beg to disagree Walkie Talkie, It was absolute common sense.

TalkieWalkie

NckD wrote: »

I beg to disagree Walkie Talkie, It was absolute common sense.

Yeah, absolutely. :rolleyes:

Icke gave up a good career to become a freak of society because it pays well lol.
And with all the money he's earning, isnt he living the high life, covered in jewelery, huge big house right ? I don't think he even drives a car.

Weather he is or not, he believes he is trying to help people.

Take a look at these guys http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EYI7JXGqd0o&feature=player_embedded

Bitch about them, they know they are doing wrong an millions die because of it, yet you choose to bitch about someone who believes he is doing good and not hurting anyone.

NckD

According to Wikipedia (not exactly the font of all wisdom) he was let go from the BBC for not paying a poll tax. He then drifted under the influence of New Age Ideas and began a career as a sort of prophet or guru. His theories are dubious and based on pseudoscience and unfounded conspiracies. And i think the less people who believe him, the better

PirateShampoo

And all of this was after he claimed on national tv he was the son of god.

mysterious

PirateShampoo wrote: »

And all of this was after he claimed on national tv he was the son of god.

i don't trust Icke on the "truth movement" side of thing's. The Illuminati have a lot of control over what he says and does. The reason he is says this stuff to the masses, is because "he's let do". This is what most people don't get about this world. We are born into complete slavery and mind control. The Illuminati have everything wrapped up beyond what most people could ever contain to imagine. The Iluminati have technology hundreds of years ahead of what we know.

Icke is not doing anything to stop the NWO. You can't force people to become aware, and selling books also won't make others become aware. If it did no book would ever be sold ever again if the real truth did come out. Alot of new agers and truthers, make the real truthers look like "nutcases"

i know reptilians exist, but they are largely misunderstood. The reptilians are not the ones in control like icke says. The annunaki are above the reptilians. The Draconians are the real name for the reptilians that control the world.

Even within the illuminati many fight over power and blood.

People forget that, once you sell a book, the NWO government knows it. For their is a barcode on it.

I also agree with Talkiewalkie on his points somewhat, but I personally do not trust icke. Finally in response to Pirate shampoo, he did claim to be the son of god, and not only that he also said that hes in "contact" with the most powerful benigs in the universe.

If he was, how come hes still selling books? If you look at the wogan interview, you can clearly see people "were aware" back then aswell. The mainstream will always have a hard time dealing with the truth of whats really going on. Icke imo might have good intenetions, but he does seem ego driven to me.

mugs1

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

The world is born into slavery, you are forced to pay income tax on you're flesh and blood practically for you're whole life, just to survive, live. Now they want you to pay tax on water, everything you buy, consume, tolls and borders. That's slavery from any angle you look at it..

Forced to pay income Tax on your flesh and blood I tought it was on my earnings!!

But wait what if don't have a job how would I feed clothes and educate my children or worse what if they need medical treatment :eek: where would the money come from

the system might be unfair and crap but it's better then what we had 200 years ago


So you don't like borders I guess that means your all for the european union so?

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

I don't believe anyone mentioned "lizards", they are called reptilians and just because you can't see them does not mean they do not exist. You can't see a magnetic force or gravity but it's there. Billions of people believe in god's they can't see, are you going to ridicule them all because you can not see the god ?.

You can do some very simple experiments at home to prove that Gravity and magnetic forces exist! So have you seen these reptilians?

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

I don't recall anyone mentioning that reptilians eat babies, but if they do exist, would it be such a big surprise if they did eat babies ? 50,000 children go missing every year in the U.S alone.

You just did!!

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

Being open to the possibility that reptilians or other E.T's, spirituality, ascension, ghosts, moon matrix, dimensions or ufo's is definitely a "glass is half full attitude". To deny them because they sound a bit wild or because you can not see them is not only a "glass is half empty" attitude, but is ignorant, arrogant and closed minded.

The term "Glass is half full" refers to someone who sees the positive in any given situation.. there is nothing positive in anything you have said only negative so there for you are a "Glass is half empty" person

mugs1

mysterious wrote: »

i don't trust Icke on the "truth movement" side of thing's. The Illuminati have a lot of control over what he says and does. The reason he is says this stuff to the masses, is because "he's let do". This is what most people don't get about this world. We are born into complete slavery and mind control. The Illuminati have everything wrapped up beyond what most people could ever contain to imagine. The Iluminati have technology hundreds of years ahead of what we know.


i know reptilians exist, but they are largely misunderstood. The reptilians are not the ones in control like icke says. The annunaki are above the reptilians. The Draconians are the real name for the reptilians that control the world.

Even within the illuminati many fight over power and blood.

People forget that, once you sell a book, the NWO government knows it. For their is a barcode on it..

Im guessing you spend alot of time on the project camelot website!!!

mysterious

mugs1 wrote: »

Im guessing you spend alot of time on the project camelot website!!!

Wrong.

CiaranMT

... Is what this thread is

Great entertainment guys!

mysterious

CiaranMT wrote: »

... Is what this thread is

Great entertainment guys!

Except in reality, you contribute and consist in the entertainment babble. You will wake up tomorrow and do it all again. Believe me, when you wake up for real in the real world you will realise what a load of cock and bull you believed all your life, "about this world"

Entertainment is for the sleeping masses. Keeps thier minds drilled and preoccupied.

All the funny smilieys in your post makes, this even more cringing for me to see. shudders.

espinolman

mysterious wrote: »

Believe me, when you wake up for real in the real world you will realise what a load of cock and bull you believed all your life, "about this world"

When you wake up for real in whose real world ?

Whose world is this real world ?

Whose real reality should we wake up to ?

mugs1

mysterious wrote: »

Wrong.

Sure you do, it's ok I won't tell anyone

mysterious

mugs1 wrote: »

Sure you do, it's ok I won't tell anyone

:rolleyes:

TalkieWalkie

mugs1 wrote: »

Forced to pay income Tax on your flesh and blood I tought it was on my earnings!!

I don't want to go way off topic so i'll just say this.
Government create bonds from our Birth Certs and trades them to the banks for capital. The government promises our future energy/earnings to the bank as collateral for the loan. Thats why you pay income tax, not because you earn money.

mugs1 wrote: »

But wait what if don't have a job how would I feed clothes and educate my children or worse what if they need medical treatment :eek: where would the money come from

People got on fine pre income tax days.

mugs1 wrote: »

the system might be unfair and crap but it's better then what we had 200 years ago

No, it's not better.

mugs1 wrote: »

So you don't like borders I guess that means your all for the european union so?

I didn't say I don't like borders. That would be a stupid thing to say. You said that.

mugs1 wrote: »

You can do some very simple experiments at home to prove that Gravity and magnetic forces exist! So have you seen these reptilians?

No, I have not seen reptillians but I don't rule out the possibility of their existance just because I have not seen them. That also would be stupid.

mugs1 wrote: »

You just did!!

Thats just silly.

mugs1 wrote: »

The term "Glass is half full" refers to someone who sees the positive in any given situation.. there is nothing positive in anything you have said only negative so there for you are a "Glass is half empty" person

Actually it reffers to optimism and pesimism but regarding positivity, I would regard being open to possibility as being a positive thing.

K-9

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

People got on fine pre income tax days.

No, it's not better.

Without going too off topic, how so?

mugs1

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

I don't want to go way off topic so i'll just say this.
Government create bonds from our Birth Certs and trades them to the banks for capital. The government promises our future energy/earnings to the bank as collateral for the loan. Thats why you pay income tax, not because you earn money..

Well holy crap!! You really are in deep with this stuff, maybe you should consider taking a break from it for a while, it might help you seperate the signal from the noise..... you know come back with a fresh perspective

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

People got on fine pre income tax days.


No, it's not better.

Maybe you could use the time to study some history, maybe start with what life was like for people (children in particular) in the 17th & 18th century!!

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

I didn't say I don't like borders. That would be a stupid thing to say. You said that.

Read your last post, you really are going to have to take responsability for what you write, or at least think before you write it!! it's what adults do..

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

No, I have not seen reptillians but I don't rule out the possibility of their existance just because I have not seen them. That also would be stupid..

Well see there's the problem because you talk like someone who has.....you just scroll through endless websites and youtube videos and think you have it all worked out!!

I think it's a safe bet to think that most people on this forum already have an interest in these topics and as such have allready looked into it themselves.....and don't need their eyes opened or to be educated by you or other people on this forum, and just want an adult conversation without having endless reems of mindless drivel from some obscure website you visited that day delivered from your pulpit as gospel!!!!

TalkieWalkie

mugs1 wrote: »

Well holy crap!! You really are in deep with this stuff, maybe you should consider taking a break from it for a while, it might help you seperate the signal from the noise..... you know come back with a fresh perspective

Just looking at you're other thread :

mugs1 wrote: »

Having spent alot of time looking into this subject myself I can certianly see how this would happen.

Hypocricy anyone ? :eek:

mugs1

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

Just looking at you're other thread :


Hypocricy anyone ? :eek:

So maybe im not just some sleepy sceptic living in the matrix Maan.... and might even know abit about the subject!!

I made several other points in this thread would you like to address them also??

I think K-9 also asked you to elaborate on a couple points too,

Scarab80

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

I don't want to go way off topic so i'll just say this.
Government create bonds from our Birth Certs and trades them to the banks for capital. The government promises our future energy/earnings to the bank as collateral for the loan. Thats why you pay income tax, not because you earn money.

Exhcequer statements showing how all income and other taxes are spent - http://www.finance.gov.ie/ViewDoc.asp?DocId=-1&CatID=5&m=f

amacachi

Sorry, despite my right-wingedness I have to argue the "born into slavery" thing as being a huge overstatement.

If someone wishes to make use of a service provided by somebody else then they should have to pay, what's the problem with that?

TalkieWalkie

K-9 wrote: »

Without going too off topic, how so?

It doesnt come down to whatever material sh1t you think you are blessed with, it come down to being born into debt or not. Pre income tax = less debt and post income tax = more debt = slavery, If you are born into debt, it is considered slavery if you have to work 65-70 years to pay it off, it certainly isnt considered freedom. When you consider that society does not even need money, you begin to see the system for what it is. Enslavement.

mugs1 wrote: »

So maybe im not just some sleepy sceptic living in the matrix Maan.... and might even know abit about the subject!!

I made several other points in this thread would you like to address them also??
You made no points.

I think K-9 also asked you to elaborate on a couple points too,

You made no points. none at all.
Replied to K9, Happy now ?

amacachi wrote: »

Sorry, depite my right-wingedness I have to argue the "born into slavery" thing as being a huge overstatement.

If someone wishes to make use of a service provided by somebody else then they should have to pay, what's the problem with that?

What service is that ?

These questions are better off asked on the GOV, GARDAI private company thread.

Di0genes

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

It doesnt come down to whatever material sh1t you think you are blessed with, it come down to being born into debt or not. Pre income tax = less debt and post income tax = more debt = slavery, If you are born into debt, it is considered slavery if you have to work 65-70 years to pay it off, it certainly isnt considered freedom. When you consider that society does not even need money, you begin to see the system for what it is. Enslavement.

Could you care to examine a chart of when income tax was introduced compared to the few decades beforehand when working a 60-90 week down the mine was standard. There weren't any child labour laws either. With none of the benefits or social welfare security that income tax pays for. You're working on a cotton gin in yorkshire in the 19th century and at the end of a 80 hour week your hand got crushed you weren't entitled to any kind of employment insurance.

And this to your mind is a better situation than any kind of social Welfare system.

Society doesn't need money? You're typing this on a computer. How exactly do you suppose you pay all the people who worked to make this machine and the software that runs on it without money? Do you barter between the sotfware and hardware developers? The people who get components to factories? The designers.

The entire foundation of er civilisation is based on abstract economic system.

Unless you plan on paying for grain and cloth with animal skins, and forgo any scientific or medical benefit achieved in the last 5,000 years. Quit saying we don't need money.

Yitzhak Rabin

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

It doesnt come down to whatever material sh1t you think you are blessed with, it come down to being born into debt or not. Pre income tax = less debt and post income tax = more debt = slavery, If you are born into debt, it is considered slavery if you have to work 65-70 years to pay it off, it certainly isnt considered freedom. When you consider that society does not even need money, you begin to see the system for what it is. Enslavement.

Being able to retire is a relatively recent development. In the past people worked either til they died, or until they physically couldn't and had to hope they had a family to look after them.

Nowadays, thanks to advancements in medical science(vast majority which is paid for by tax) people can live longer and draw a pension and not have to work in their later years(again as a result of social taxes).

I have no clue how you think people could hope to not have to work their whole life if there was no tax?

And another reason I don't understand this logic, is rich people have the most to lose from a socialist system. Tax is taken as a percentage so the more you earn, the more you pay(and the less you get back via social services). Its even stacked against rich people(in Ireland) as they pay almost 50% of their income, whilst poorer people pay no tax and have far more social benefits.

I fail to see how our system is slavery? It's the opposite in fact?

amacachi

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

What service is that ?

People talking about tolls, water charges etc. For as long as a majority or sizeable majority of people want to be provided with everything by someone else and vote in that way we're always going to have debt. It's not slavery, it's people being idiots.

The tax thing isn't a perfect argument either, if one wishes to not pay taxes it's possible, just like on a patch of land, drill your own wells (water and maybe oil for electricity generation), grow your own food. Though to most people that's too much hassle and they choose not to do so.

mugs1

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

It doesnt come down to whatever material sh1t you think you are blessed with, it come down to being born into debt or not. Pre income tax = less debt and post income tax = more debt = slavery, If you are born into debt, it is considered slavery if you have to work 65-70 years to pay it off, it certainly isnt considered freedom. When you consider that society does not even need money, you begin to see the system for what it is. Enslavement.



You made no points. none at all.
Replied to K9, Happy now ?



What service is that ?

These questions are better off asked on the GOV, GARDAI private company thread.

The fact remains that there are still alot of points made by all of the above posters that you need to address directly, and one by one with real coherent answers, but take your time do some research if you need but come back with real answers!!! or concede the Debate...

amacachi

yekahs wrote: »

Being able to retire is a relatively recent development. In the past people worked either til they died, or until they physically couldn't and had to hope they had a family to look after them.

Nowadays, thanks to advancements in medical science(vast majority which is paid for by tax) people can live longer and draw a pension and not have to work in their later years(again as a result of social taxes).

I have no clue how you think people could hope to not have to work their whole life if there was no tax?

And another reason I don't understand this logic, is rich people have the most to lose from a socialist system. Tax is taken as a percentage so the more you earn, the more you pay(and the less you get back via social services). Its even stacked against rich people(in Ireland) as they pay almost 50% of their income, whilst poorer people pay no tax and have far more social benefits.

I fail to see how our system is slavery? It's the opposite in fact?

Taxes are ridiculous. Pensions are the one stand-out example of something that if anyone else did it they'd be prosecuted, but it's OK when the government does it. It's a pyramid scheme, nothing more or less. The state shouldn't exist to provide every service people need, it should exist to allow people to provide those services.

K-9

TalkieWalkie wrote: »

It doesnt come down to whatever material sh1t you think you are blessed with, it come down to being born into debt or not. Pre income tax = less debt and post income tax = more debt = slavery, If you are born into debt, it is considered slavery if you have to work 65-70 years to pay it off, it certainly isnt considered freedom. When you consider that society does not even need money, you begin to see the system for what it is. Enslavement.

Oh, I do see your point.

You need to compare society pre Taxes and society after taxes.

As for your points re debt, Irish people born about say, 2000, were born into less debt than say, 1987. So, it doesn't necessarily follow, taxes means more debt. It can actually mean less debt.

Amazing when you consider Income taxes were drastically cut here between 1987 and 2000 but debt levels reduced.

Anyway getting back to your society was better before statement. Maybr, but who would pay for the Hospitals, schools and the longer life expectancy?