Middle Lane Motorway Morons...

Bruthal

djimi wrote: »

I asked the question in this thread earlier; is it more dangerous to undertake, or is it more dangerous for drivers to constantly have to change back and forth across two lanes of traffic in order to overtake middle lane drivers?

If a conscious effort was made in this country to educate drivers of the correct way to drive motorways and dual carriageways and if somehow the RSA/NRA could get it into the heads of motorists that you should always be in the left hand lane unless overtaking, then there would be no such thing as undertaking.

I think people do it because the middle lane feels like the left lane to them, because they see one lane to their right which is the normal setup. And the left lane feels like the layby, because not many 3 lane motorways here.

Fore Iron

I giggle a bit at comaprisons between Ireland and other countries. If you look hard enough you will always find somewhere where the standard is worse. At the end of the day only one country in the world is dead last by whatever measure, so everywhere else has somewhere to look down to.

Was in Sorrento a while ago and while the driving was fairly manic, it was the most courteous place you could hope to walk, ride or drive around. We are miles behind them from that point of view.

Irish drivers aren't deliberatey reckless per se, in that they don't try to break laws or drive in middle lanes, but I definitely feel we have a particular attitude of complete uncaring towards how things should or shouldn't be done.

We are also unbelievably liable to the flock of sheep syndrome. If someone else is doing it then we should do it to. Baaaaaa! Like when you are driving down the road and a bus has pulled over on the opposite side partially blocking the oncoming lane. One guy nips around the bus just before you get to it and then you have to stop and wait for the dozen other sheep who simply followed the first guy without bothering to wait and see if anything was coming the other way!

Also the source of the most versatile of Irish defences when someone pulls you up on it - "But everyone else was doing it!".

vincenzolorenzo

Fore Iron wrote: »

I giggle a bit at comaprisons between Ireland and other countries. If you look hard enough you will always find somewhere where the standard is worse. At the end of the day only one country in the world is dead last by whatever measure, so everywhere else has somewhere to look down to.

Was in Sorrento a while ago and while the driving was fairly manic, it was the most courteous place you could hope to walk, ride or drive around. We are miles behind them from that point of view.

Irish drivers aren't deliberatey reckless per se, in that they don't try to break laws or drive in middle lanes, but I definitely feel we have a particular attitude of complete uncaring towards how things should or shouldn't be done.

We are also unbelievably liable to the flock of sheep syndrome. If someone else is doing it then we should do it to. Baaaaaa! Like when you are driving down the road and a bus has pulled over on the opposite side partially blocking the oncoming lane. One guy nips around the bus just before you get to it and then you have to stop and wait for the dozen other sheep who simply followed the first guy without bothering to wait and see if anything was coming the other way!

Also the source of the most versatile of Irish defences when someone pulls you up on it - "But everyone else was doing it!".

Lot of truth in that post

Atomic Pineapple

robbie7730 wrote: »

I think people do it because the middle lane feels like the left lane to them, because they see one lane to their right which is the normal setup. And the left lane feels like the layby, because not many 3 lane motorways here.

No its not, its because Irish drivers are incompetent due to never been tested properly, they are afraid of the cars merging from the left because they don't have the ability to either safely merge in the lane or safely pull into the overtaking lane and merge back into the driving lane there after.

Add on top of that the pure laziness of drivers who find it the handiest to just stay in the middle lane.

€65 million would have educated a lot of people!

Bruthal

Fore Iron wrote: »

Like when you are driving down the road and a bus has pulled over on the opposite side partially blocking the oncoming lane. One guy nips around the bus just before you get to it and then you have to stop and wait for the dozen other sheep who simply followed the first guy without bothering to wait and see if anything was coming the other way!

Yes thats true,, but we are imbasils in that scenario as well, very often there is plenty of room for a car on our side to pass the stopped bus on the other side, even with oncoming traffic going around that stopped bus, but cars will stop, because they think they cant get through now, and i bet them very drivers will totally agree with your post here without exception.

The amount of times i see cars stopping when there is enough room for 2 cars to fit, even though the car in front of them might of sailed through, i think irish drivers must be close to the worst in world you mentioned.

Or a tractor completely in the hard shoulder and cars wont pass it unless there is nothing oncoming from the horizon so they can swerve almost into the opposite hard shoulder to pass the tractor, yet they will pass oncoming traffic at a combined speed of 200kph with only 3 or 4 feet between them without a thought.

Bruthal

draffodx wrote: »

No its not, its because Irish drivers are incompetent due to never been tested properly, they are afraid of the cars merging from the left because they don't have the ability to either safely merge in the lane or safely pull into the overtaking lane and merge back into the driving lane there after.

Add on top of that the pure laziness of drivers who find it the handiest to just stay in the middle lane.

€65 million would have educated a lot of people!

It is because of that, they think its the left lane, why else would they sit in the middle lane beside what used to be the overtaking lane. and that is because of incompetence as you said.

Irish drivers are a laughing stock, plain and simple. Im one of them, but i still believe that, any half competent driver can see that. Drive in one or 2 other countries and its more obvious.

And its not due to not being tested properly, its more because of not being trained properly.
And also too easy to get onto our roads so that probably would suggest not properly tested also.

pippip

The design of the m50 is very much to blame for most of this behavior.

The slip roads are too near to each other, leaving too much activity for people on the m50 already to cruise along in the left most lane. Join this with the volume of traffic it takes from 7am to 7pm, there is simply too little room for people to merge without disrupting the flow of traffic in the left lane.

Another problem is the inability on some of the slips to get up to speed without excessive acceleration, Cherrywood right hand lane northbound is a prime example. I tested this last week and in my car (150bhp) and I can see how other cars would easily struggle to reach the 120kph with normal acceleration before needing to merge.

R.O.R

pippip wrote: »

The design of the m50 is very much to blame for most of this behavior.

The slip roads are too near to each other, leaving too much activity for people on the m50 already to cruise along in the left most lane. Join this with the volume of traffic it takes from 7am to 7pm, there is simply too little room for people to merge without disrupting the flow of traffic in the left lane.

Another problem is the inability on some of the slips to get up to speed without excessive acceleration, Cherrywood right hand lane northbound is a prime example. I tested this last week and in my car (150bhp) and I can see how other cars would easily struggle to reach the 120kph with normal acceleration before needing to merge.

Slip roads to close together? Rubbish, the auxilliary lane negates any bad things about them not being so far apart. It's just plane bad driving, and I lay the blame with the fact that people have been able to just jump in a car with no training and "teach" themselves to pass a test.

Bruthal

R.O.R wrote: »

Slip roads to close together? Rubbish, the auxilliary lane negates any bad things about them not being so far apart. It's just plane bad driving, and I lay the blame with the fact that people have been able to just jump in a car with no training and "teach" themselves to pass a test.

I dont think its rubbish myself, some slip roads are too hard to get up to speed from, try the lucan exit when coming from lucan and exit southbound, too tight a circular turn to be up to speed when ready to merge, so lots do drive in the centre lane to avoid the slip road traffic too.

If every mile or 2 you are encountering merging traffic, people will tend to stay in the middle lane. Compared to what it was before the upgrades and barriers removed i can live with it. Plus some think they are in the left lane as i said in earlier post, because they see the overtaking lane to their right as it always was on the M50

pippip

R.O.R wrote: »

Slip roads to close together? Rubbish, the auxilliary lane negates any bad things about them not being so far apart. It's just plane bad driving, and I lay the blame with the fact that people have been able to just jump in a car with no training and "teach" themselves to pass a test.

Apart from rush hour when the auxilliary lanes are traffic jams on the redcow and lucan! And when the redcow backs up it immediately effects the onramp from ballymount. Not to mention the queue jumpers who make traveling in the left lane a danger.

R.O.R

robbie7730 wrote: »

I dont think its rubbish myself, some slip roads are too hard to get up to speed from, try the lucan exit when coming from lucan and exit southbound, too tight a circular turn to be up to speed when ready to merge, so lots do drive in the centre lane to avoid the slip road traffic too.

If every mile or 2 you are encountering merging traffic, people will tend to stay in the middle lane. Compared to what it was before the upgrades and barriers removed i can live with it. Plus some think they are in the left lane as i said in earlier post, because they see the overtaking lane to their right as it always was on the M50

Drive in left lane. Observe traffic entering motorway, if it's going to be entering the same road space as you, move to middle lane.

Once past traffic entering motorway, pull back in to inside lane.

Hardly Rocket science, and pretty much the norm in most of the rest of Europe.

pippip

R.O.R wrote: »

Drive in left lane. Observe traffic entering motorway, if it's going to be entering the same road space as you, move to middle lane.

Once past traffic entering motorway, pull back in to inside lane.

Hardly Rocket science, and pretty much the norm in most of the rest of Europe.

You'd be in an out like a yoyo during the day. Good luck

Bruthal

R.O.R wrote: »

Drive in left lane. Observe traffic entering motorway, if it's going to be entering the same road space as you, move to middle lane.

Once past traffic entering motorway, pull back in to inside lane.

Hardly Rocket science, and pretty much the norm in most of the rest of Europe.

No but while the merging drivers merge at 70kph, the left lane drivers doin 90kph move into the middle lane and on it goes. So drivers stay mid lane instead of in and out every minute,

R.O.R

pippip wrote: »

You'd be in an out like a yoyo during the day. Good luck

Thank you - I manage fairly well, every day for the past 7 years.

I'll be the one in the Accord going from lane to lane.

pippip

R.O.R wrote: »

Thank you - I manage fairly well, every day for the past 7 years.

I'll be the one in the Accord going from lane to lane.

Maybe its just me but would seem to make more sense and a much more pleasant journey to just use the one lane?

Atomic Pineapple

pippip wrote: »

Maybe its just me but would seem to make more sense and a much more pleasant journey to just use the one lane?

You do know basic motorway lane discipline do you not?

GreeBo

robbie7730 wrote: »

No but while the merging drivers merge at 70kph, the left lane drivers doin 90kph move into the middle lane and on it goes. So drivers stay mid lane instead of in and out every minute,

Unless the roads are empty driving on any Motorway anywhere (France, Italy, Germany) you will be changing lanes frequently as you encounter slower traffic. Its called motorway driving.

Only in Ireland do we seem to think "motorway" means cruise control and no lane changing until I want to get off.

GreeBo

pippip wrote: »

Maybe its just me but would seem to make more sense and a much more pleasant journey to just use the one lane?

If this if your logic for lane choice, then for all our sakes please feel free to commute anytime between 3am and 6am.
Thanks!

Signed
"The rest of us"

Bruthal

R.O.R wrote: »

Thank you - I manage fairly well, every day for the past 7 years.

I'll be the one in the Accord going from lane to lane.

Yea i managed for a few years also, driving at an average 1.5kph up to the barrier. A lane change would take 10 minutes during the barrier days in rush hour.

R.O.R

pippip wrote: »

Maybe its just me but would seem to make more sense and a much more pleasant journey to just use the one lane?

FFS

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/pdf-downloads/english/rules-of-the-road%20eng.pdf

Would make sense and a much more pleasant journey if some people bothered their ar$e to drive properly. Get with the program, or get of the road :mad:

Bruthal

GreeBo wrote: »

Unless the roads are empty driving on any Motorway anywhere (France, Italy, Germany) you will be changing lanes frequently as you encounter slower traffic. Its called motorway driving.

Only in Ireland do we seem to think "motorway" means cruise control and no lane changing until I want to get off.

Yea but i dont think many of the other countries had a car park motorway for years. Our M50 motorway was turned into a real motorway while the cars where actually on it.

R.O.R

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yea but i dont think many of the other countries had a car park motorway for years. Our M50 motorway was turned into a real motorway while the cars where actually on it.

I sat for about an hour at the toll on the Autostrada heading towards Venice in 03 (car thermometer got to 52 degrees).

It would take about 40 minutes to get from Junction 17 on the M62 to past the M6 interchange every morning in Manchester.

The M25 is a car park a lot of the day.

The M50 wasn't, and still isn't unique or special.

Bruthal

R.O.R wrote: »

I sat for about an hour at the toll on the Autostrada heading towards Venice in 03 (car thermometer got to 52 degrees).

It would take about 40 minutes to get from Junction 17 on the M62 to past the M6 interchange every morning in Manchester.

The M25 is a car park a lot of the day.

The M50 wasn't, and still isn't unique or special.

No lane change problems in italy or manchester so.

GreeBo

robbie7730 wrote: »

Yea but i dont think many of the other countries had a car park motorway for years. Our M50 motorway was turned into a real motorway while the cars where actually on it.

If there is a car park section then you dont need to change lanes to pass someone, you can legally overtake on the left in this type of traffic. If however you are in the wrong lane and are going to miss your exit unless you change, then I suggest you pay more attention to the road signs and get into the correct lane earlier.

Bruthal

GreeBo wrote: »

If there is a car park section then you dont need to change lanes to pass someone, you can legally overtake on the left in this type of traffic. If however you are in the wrong lane and are going to miss your exit unless you change, then I suggest you pay more attention to the road signs and get into the correct lane earlier.

What?? Road rage and your sitting on your computer?
Thanks for the suggestion.

GreeBo

robbie7730 wrote: »

What?? Road rage and your sitting on your computer?
Thanks for the suggestion.

I sit at my computer, far more comfortable.
Next.

Bruthal

Anyway the car park i was referring to was the walking pace traffic we had on the M50 from tallaght to the toll barriers, so i dont think a lane change was all that vital while driving at under 2kph average at that time.


The fact is now we have a better M50 we have some drivers going 160kph on the right lane expecting everyone within visual range to get out of their way, while others merge in at 50kph into left lane. Its incompetent drivers combined with some that think they are in mondello is the problem, nothing more.

Bruthal

GreeBo wrote: »

I sit at my computer, far more comfortable.
Next.

O sorry about that, thats the one great thing about boards, always a spell and grammer check for the less intelligent of us:D

GreeBo

robbie7730 wrote: »

The fact is now we have a better M50 we have some drivers going 160kph on the right lane expecting everyone within visual range to get out of their way, while others merge in at 50kph into left lane. Its incompetent drivers combined with some that think they are in mondello is the problem, nothing more.

Unless you are actively in the process of overtaking someone you are supposed to get out of their way.
You are really not getting this are you?

Atomic Pineapple

Oh how I wish that €65 million was spent on driver education and re-training rather than speed cameras

Bruthal

GreeBo wrote: »

Unless you are actively in the process of overtaking someone you are supposed to get out of their way.
You are really not getting this are you?

You honestly dont believe drivers racing down the overtaking lanes well above the legal limit on the motorway cause problems too?

Im not getting it? No i must not be.
But if you drive down the right lane at 120kph it will be to overtake drivers in the lane to your left, along comes super driver at 160kph flashing you to get out of his way. Now you are overtaking cars to your left,,, are you not entitled to continue overtaking them if they are going slower?

So now you can use your obvious expert driving skills to judge others from typing. Next i will be banned because im useless at typing/driving:)

Bruthal

draffodx wrote: »

Oh how I wish that €65 million was spent on driver education and re-training rather than speed cameras

Well sounds like the speed cameras are needed after all

Bruthal

Luckily for other drivers its the golf driving forum you look after if you believe 160kph is ok GreeBo

Bruthal

Anyway there are far worse things to worry about than people that dont know how to change lanes, the M50 is a lot better than it used to be so at least thats something.

VinnyTGM

robbie7730 wrote: »

You honestly dont believe drivers racing down the overtaking lanes well above the legal limit on the motorway cause problems too?

Im not getting it? No i must not be.
But if you drive down the right lane at 120kph it will be to overtake drivers in the lane to your left, along comes super driver at 160kph flashing you to get out of his way. Now you are overtaking cars to your left,,, are you not entitled to continue overtaking them if they are going slower?

So now you can use your obvious expert driving skills to judge others from typing. Next i will be banned because im useless at typing/driving:)

Your entitled to continue to overtake, but once you are finished overtaking, you must switch to the middle lane, and then on to lane 1 if it is empty.

pippip

draffodx wrote: »

You do know basic motorway lane discipline do you not?

R.O.R wrote: »

FFS

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/pdf-downloads/english/rules-of-the-road%20eng.pdf

Would make sense and a much more pleasant journey if some people bothered their ar$e to drive properly. Get with the program, or get of the road :mad:

Excuse me, I never said i sit in the middle lane when the inside is free or that i don't go by the rotr, just said I don't go back and forth like a yoyo when i can see ahead that i will be moving back in a matter of seconds which is what happens with the M50 with the close intersections.


I traveled home on the M50 tonight and from Sandyford to ballymount I could sit in the left lane for most of it overtaking certain slower cars here and there but from ballymount to blanchardstown the left lane was moving at a much slower pace due to merging traffic and there was no opportunity for me to move in at the 100kph i was maintaining so this was all spent in the middle and right hand lanes.

The lucan slip was all the way back to the redcow causing stoppages in the left and middle lanes, again the m50 design (in certain areas) and volume of traffic (during rush hour) lead people into bad habits.

Bruthal

VinnyTGM wrote: »

Your entitled to continue to overtake, but once you are finished overtaking, you must switch to the left lane.

Yes obviously, but my point was drivers racing do cause problems as well as the slow drivers in the middle lane.

Do you not get a bit irritated when you are trying to overtake and mr racing driver flies almost into the back of you because you dont overtake quick enough for his racing? This can interfere with trying to overtake. And also driving 5 meters behind cars at 120kph, then the drivers merging at 50 or 60kph, all of this causes the problems this thread is about.

As you said, we are entitled to continue to overtake then change to lane to our left, but are we entitled to drive at 160kph to overtake everyone on the motorway?

But whats the point talkin about it anymore, just like on the roads, everyone on this thread believes they are great drivers.

Bruthal

pippip wrote: »

Excuse me, I never said i sit in the middle lane when the inside is free or that i don't go by the rotr, just said I don't go back and forth like a yoyo when i can see ahead that i will be moving back in a matter of seconds which is what happens with the M50 with the close intersections.


I traveled home on the M50 tonight and from Sandyford to ballymount I could sit in the left lane for most of it overtaking certain slower cars here and there but from ballymount to blanchardstown the left lane was moving at a much slower pace due to merging traffic and there was no opportunity for me to move in at the 100kph i was maintaining so this was all spent in the middle and right hand lanes.

The lucan slip was all the way back to the redcow causing stoppages in the left and middle lanes, again the m50 design (in certain areas) and volume of traffic (during rush hour) lead people into bad habits.

Be careful now, or you will be told your useless, and they are great:D

**Timbuk2**

How to multi-quote

InTheTrees

I'm afraid to say i've lived in the US long enough that when faced with getting around an idiot in the middle lane I just pass on the inside rather than gong all the way around. Assuming conditions are safe etc etc.

It seems like lack of lane disipline is a bad habit from america where there's none. I bet a lot of the middle lane morons are americans on holiday.

GreeBo

robbie7730 wrote: »

You honestly dont believe drivers racing down the overtaking lanes well above the legal limit on the motorway cause problems too?

Im not getting it? No i must not be.
But if you drive down the right lane at 120kph it will be to overtake drivers in the lane to your left, along comes super driver at 160kph flashing you to get out of his way. Now you are overtaking cars to your left,,, are you not entitled to continue overtaking them if they are going slower?

He (and I) will only flash you to get out of the way if you are overtaking nothing and just being lazy because there is another car to overtake in 50m.
If there is a car behind you and no car to your left, move in, even if you know you will have to move out again in less than a minute; you are holding someone else up.

InTheTrees

If you're not activly passing another vehicle then you should be in the furthest lane to the left.

If Zippy the pinhead rushes up and flashes you while you're actively overtaking a vehicle on your left then he's a moron but you should still pull over to the left when its safe to do so even if it means letting him by and then pulling back to the right to overtake more vehicles on your left.

GreeBo

To add a little context. I drove in the middle lane when I first got my license. My logic was the same that you see on these threads. I didnt see the point in having to move constantly from lane 1 to lane 2 at each merge point.

It simply didnt occur to me the damage that this causes to traffic flow, mainly because when you are the MLM everything seems find and dandy for you.
I think part of the issue was the idea of "We drive on the left". My initial reaction to this was "of course we do" and on the continent they drive on the right! I didnt make the leap (hop!) to understand that we actually should drive as left as possible.
It took a thread on here where it was explained to me (poor guys!) and me actually trying to drive properly for a while. Only then did I realise the problems that MLM cause to road capacity.

Also, any driving in Europe forces you to realise that motorway driving is all about having to change lanes constantly unless you are willing to drive at the same speed as the slower vehicles. Otherwise you get lunatics 5ft from your boot doing 120 and flashing. Once you figure out that this is your fault, not theres!

So to everyone who still doesnt think/want/bother to always be looking to move left, I urge you to try it for a journey. I bet you will quickly notice how much easier your journey is/would be when everyone else also drives the same way, and how 1 MLM can seriously impact your journey and your safety, not to mention your mood!

InTheTrees

Basically if you ignore the rule of keeping to the left you end up with an american freeway which is a slow (but far more dangerous) and confused mess. (But at least the americans usually have more lanes to mess around in).

If middle lane hogging is acceptable then passing on the left has to be as well, otherwise one moron can effectivly cut a three lane road down to two.

InTheTrees

GreeBo wrote: »

motorway driving is all about having to change lanes constantly unless you are willing to drive at the same speed as the slower vehicles.

Exactly. Its a dynamic thing, there's a flow. and it works.

well it can work anyway.

Bruthal

GreeBo wrote: »

He (and I) will only flash you to get out of the way if you are overtaking nothing and just being lazy because there is another car to overtake in 50m.
If there is a car behind you and no car to your left, move in, even if you know you will have to move out again in less than a minute; you are holding someone else up.

I will get out of the way if i see you this week:)
Anyway, drive carefully.

Cole

I rang the NRA about this issue recently, nothing to do with them apparently....fair enough. It was suggested that I might contact the RSA, as they run education/safety campaigns.

I spoke to the RSA to enquire if this problem is anywhere on their radar. The person I spoke to was very nice but there was no real recognition of what I was talking about. I really don't think she actually got the point I was making about using a 3 lane road.

In fairness, they are based in Ballina so I'm guessing most of the staff don't spend a lot of time on the N7/M50 but it's depressing to think that even the RSA are unaware of this issue.

I guess if the vast majority of Irish drivers haven't a bulls notion of how to use these roads, then it's not surprising that no one is really drawing attention to this (except for a few here, of course;)). Maybe in 10/20 years we'll get around to it......when I'm getting treated for my stress related ulcers.

dnme

Yeaaaahhhhh eh I guess none of this (middle lane hogging) is the end of the world either though. I know it can be annoying but a bit of patience and tolerance is also a marvelous thing and is sadly lacking in todays sped-up world.

Also IMO the M50 is one of the most fcuked up motorways in the world. It has junctions every few hundred yards most of which have different layouts. I tend not to use the left lane on the M50 either cos it keeps changing and you are mixing with off ramp and on ramp traffic every few minutes

I'm setting myself up here I'm sure, but I'll try and practice what I've just preached, a bit of tolerance and patience.

steve9859

NhocCuteGirlz wrote: »

Ireland is miles behind in terms of a proper motorway usage culture. Its embarrassing.

__________________
<snip fake sig>

Not really. Its no worse than driving around the UK, where no-one drives at the speed limit and the average speed is a good bit faster than here, the motorways are jammed, and even trucks hog the middle lane sometimes. And the US has no rules at all - every lane has equal priority. Germany has a higher speed limit, and people routinely fly along. Im not sure really where you are comparing us to.

There will always be countries with perfect roads and drivers (I am sure that Scandinavia is great), but there are a good few that are worse. Id put us 'middle of the road' in terms of motorway behaviour. Certainly isnt 'embarrasing'!! And even on a busy M50, if you just calm down and have a bit of tolerance, the driving is perfectly fine!

MarkoC

NhocCuteGirlz wrote: »

Ireland is miles behind in terms of a proper motorway usage culture. Its embarrassing.

111% agree here and it will never change as Irish people are so old fashioned and not willing to take in any European culture like i heard few times here ...