Gun Club stance on poisoning?

LostCovey

Hi all,

Given the ongoing disaster of raptor poisoning, would there be any chance that gun clubs would adopt a 'no poison' policy or code of practice?

I am not accusing any particular gun club, but there has been evidence of certain gun clubs using poisoned bait for vermin control. If they are not involved, then surely a clear declaration of this, either individually or via a clear blanket declaration by the NARGC would clear up the cloud that hangs over some gun clubs in this respect. Such a declaration would also flush out rogue clubs or members, as word of their activities would inevitably get out - especially if it was clear that most gun clubs and/or their national organisations disapproved.

The farming organisations have dug a hole for themselves with some "constructive ambiguity" in their public statements on the matter recently. The gun clubs could easily put some clear blue water between them and such other groups that are suspected of involvement

Given their claimed conservation credentials, poisoning would seem out of place in gun club activities, and by definition a GUN club has alternative ways of managing perceived threats legally without threat to any protected species.

Just a thought. Would be interested to hear if members here see any problem with gun clubs going down this road.

LostCovey

landkeeper

that is not even worthy of a reply
have you nothing better to do than to start a thread with the objective of causing trouble

meathstevie

LostCovey, why don't you ring the NARGC yourself and you'll get a quick explanation what the NARGC's point of view re. poison is.

Don't forget that there's also a significant change of secondary poisoning when carnivorous animals eat poisoned rodents and that occurs in the country side as well as in urban areas.

I'm in no way trying to say any of the poisoned raptors died of secondary poisoning but it is a serious problem out there.

deerhunter1

landkeeper wrote: »

that is not even worthy of a reply
have you nothing better to do than to start a thread with the objective of causing trouble

I second that well said:mad:

Vegeta

Personally I am against the use of poison in open areas against birds and foxes.

Our gun club is quite small and I would know all active members personally and none use poison.

jap gt

Vegeta wrote: »

Personally I am against the use of poison in open areas against birds and foxes.

Our gun club is quite small and I would know all active members personally and none use poison.

same here, there is a lot of talk going on about gun clubs being caught poisoning land, but if they were caught and as the op said there is evidence, why hasnt there been convictions, i think its apity these birds are being killed but throwing the blame from farmers to gun clubs isnt going to stop it, i think any decent gun club isnt going to set out to kill the birds

Rovi

[MOD]
Folks, let's keep this civil.

Some posts have been deleted and Infractions issued.
[/MOD]

LostCovey

Vegeta wrote: »

Personally I am against the use of poison in open areas against birds and foxes.

Our gun club is quite small and I would know all active members personally and none use poison.

Fair play Vegeta, glad to hear it. I actually assumed that would be the norm, and that this wouldn't be such a controversial suggestion. A bit like restaurants declaring they only serve Irish beef, or a greengrocer shop not stocking GM food.

The defensive tone of the first few replies above yours is very disappointing. For the record, it was an honest suggestion. I really think that clubs like Vegeta's should state their credentials - that they are operating without poisoning wildlife, especially if such clubs are the majority.

LostCovey

LostCovey

meathstevie wrote: »

LostCovey, why don't you ring the NARGC yourself and you'll get a quick explanation what the NARGC's point of view re. poison is.

Don't forget that there's also a significant change of secondary poisoning when carnivorous animals eat poisoned rodents and that occurs in the country side as well as in urban areas.

I'm in no way trying to say any of the poisoned raptors died of secondary poisoning but it is a serious problem out there.

Hi meathstevie,

I don't ring the NARGC because a chat with Des Crofton was not what I had in mind. I was looking to see could individual gun clubs make a virtue of the fact that they don't use poison on wildlife, when some allegedly do. I hoped to discuss that in a shooting forum,

The rodents issue is a red herring in this context. Rodenticides have never been any part of the current raptor poisoning issue - although I accept there may be a problem with Barn Owls - for another day.

All of the discussions on boards.ie could be replaced by private telephone discussions with professional PR people in representative organisations and special interest groups - is that what you have in mind?

LostCovey

LostCovey

landkeeper wrote: »

that is not even worthy of a reply

Well thanks for making an exception anyway. Your reply is important to us.

landkeeper wrote: »

that is not even worthy of a reply
have you nothing better to do than to start a thread with the objective of causing trouble

Maybe you should take your own advice, instead of complaining about people starting threads and the unworthiness of replying to them.

In your reply.

LostCovey

landkeeper

LostCovey wrote: »

.

The defensive tone of the first few replies above yours is very disappointing. For the record, it was an honest suggestion. I really think that clubs like Vegeta's should state their credentials - that they are operating without poisoning wildlife, especially if such clubs are the majority.

LostCovey

im sorry im not buying that i can see the theme of the article now
'only 20% of irish gun clubs condone the use of poison to control corvids '


just because only a few eejits run around allegedly throwing poison carcases over hedges the rest of the country have to make an active statement to publicise that they don't , come on cop on give people a bit more credit than that please

LostCovey

jap gt wrote: »

same here, there is a lot of talk going on about gun clubs being caught poisoning land, but if they were caught and as the op said there is evidence, why hasnt there been convictions, i think its apity these birds are being killed but throwing the blame from farmers to gun clubs isnt going to stop it, i think any decent gun club isnt going to set out to kill the birds

Hi jap gt

I don't think that saying "prove it!" convinces anyone.

There is no blame being thrown from (certain individual) farmers by me.

I just think that a high profile incident with and eagle or a kite, involving a gun club, will inevitably happen (has already with Buzzards according to Srameen). And yes, an officer in one well known gun club has said that he and a number of other members used alphachloralose-laced meat baits in vermin competitions.

I am sure, that as with sheep farmers, these rogue clubs or rogue members are a minority and an exception.

I thought a voluntary declaration would be a simple way to assert a principle that an individual gun club believes in, if they do.

LostCovey

LostCovey

landkeeper wrote: »

im sorry im not buying that i can see the theme of the article now
'only 20% of irish gun clubs condone the use of poison to control corvids '


just because only a few eejits run around allegedly throwing poison carcases over hedges the rest of the country have to make an active statement to publicise that they don't , come on cop on give people a bit more credit than that please

I'm not writing an article.

It wouldn't be anything like that high anyway would it????????

I accept your last point to a degree - it is a bit like asking a man if he has stopped beating his wife.

LostCovey

meathstevie

LostCovey wrote: »

Hi meathstevie,

I don't ring the NARGC because a chat with Des Crofton was not what I had in mind. I was looking to see could individual gun clubs make a virtue of the fact that they don't use poison on wildlife, when some allegedly do. I hoped to discuss that in a shooting forum,

The rodents issue is a red herring in this context. Rodenticides have never been any part of the current raptor poisoning issue - although I accept there may be a problem with Barn Owls - for another day.

All of the discussions on boards.ie could be replaced by private telephone discussions with professional PR people in representative organisations and special interest groups - is that what you have in mind?

LostCovey

LostCovey,

I didn't direct you towards Des or anyone else in the NARGC in order to have you being spoken to by some PR slicker. I merely wanted to direct you to the horses mouth. If you'd like to know about the GAA rulebook your best port of call would be Croke Park as well. I've no problem telling you that I personally don't like poison and that to the best of my knowledge none of the members in the club I'm in use it to target foxes and crows or any other carnivorous wildlife for that matter.

There's a lot of fox shooting and crow trapping going on in my club and the effects are becoming quite visible in my area.

From personal observations I can tell you that for example the amount of hares in our area has increased dramatically since a few members have taken up some serious fox control and coincidentially hardly anyone in the club hunts hares.

Neither I did try to say that the raptor poisoning has anything to do with secondary poisonings.I just said it is a problem. I wouldn't want to count the amount of pet cat and dogs and wildlife of the scavenging variety that has popped it's cogs that way. I do realise that rodenticides sometimes are a "necessary evil" but I'm not a fan of it..

Tackleberrywho

meathstevie wrote: »

LostCovey,

I didn't direct you towards Des or anyone else in the NARGC in order to have you being spoken to by some PR slicker. I merely wanted to direct you to the horses mouth. If you'd like to know about the GAA rulebook your best port of call would be Croke Park as well. I've no problem telling you that I personally don't like poison and that to the best of my knowledge none of the members in the club I'm in use it to target foxes and crows or any other carnivorous wildlife for that matter.

There's a lot of fox shooting and crow trapping going on in my club and the effects are becoming quite visible in my area.

From personal observations I can tell you that for example the amount of hares in our area has increased dramatically since a few members have taken up some serious fox control and coincidentially hardly anyone in the club hunts hares.

Neither I did try to say that the raptor poisoning has anything to do with secondary poisonings.I just said it is a problem. I wouldn't want to count the amount of pet cat and dogs and wildlife of the scavenging variety that has popped it's cogs that way. I do realise that rodenticides sometimes are a "necessary evil" but I'm not a fan of it..

I think if teagasc instructed farmers in the best way of rat trapping it might help the problem.
I do believe that secondary poisoning could be the problem.

If a farmer puts rat bait in his grain store, rat eats the bait, dies outside then a Bird of pray eats it and dies it is not the farmers fault, as RAT BAIT is the advertised best method of controlling rats on farms.

If there was an introduction of rat trapping in the areas where the problem is this might solve the problem.

Secondary poisoning is probably far more likely.
No farmer who knows not to post poison will post poison.
A farm is a business and farmers do not want to be caught in breach of the rules as they are very aware of fines that can be imposed for breach of current farming rules and regulations.

Teagasc often put on seminars on farming methods.
If they were to show different techniques in controlling rats this might solve this problem.
If they released an Eagle in the Midlands there would be more than enough rabbits to keep these magnificent birds in good health.

jwshooter

Tackleberrywho wrote: »

I think if teagasc instructed farmers in the best way of rat trapping it might help the problem.
I do believe that secondary poisoning could be the problem.

If a farmer puts rat bait in his grain store, rat eats the bait, dies outside then a Bird of pray eats it and dies it is not the farmers fault, as RAT BAIT is the advertised best method of controlling rats on farms.

If there was an introduction of rat trapping in the areas where the problem is this might solve the problem.

Secondary poisoning is probably far more likely.
No farmer who knows not to post poison will post poison.
A farm is a business and farmers do not want to be caught in breach of the rules as they are very aware of fines that can be imposed for breach of current farming rules and regulations.

Teagasc often put on seminars on farming methods.
If they were to show different techniques in controlling rats this might solve this problem.
If they released an Eagle in the Midlands there would be more than enough rabbits to keep these magnificent birds in good health.

they could send the info out with there reps and grants cheques .

landkeeper

jwshooter wrote: »

they could send the info out with there reps and grants cheques .[/QUOTE/]

indeed they could and they could also suggest that the same farmers could spend the money they get from their grant cheques locally and therefore keep the rural ecomomy we all like and enjoy so much going , and also while they are at it , remind farmers that the cheque they get for reps compliance makes it slightly more viable to fence of rough corners and stream margins thus enabling the ducks and pheasants etc that we all love to hunt a better chance of rearing young , and one last thing it would also be helpfull to remind forgetfull farmers that the money that floats down from brussels also at least gives a fighting chance to the beef farmer to provide a fully traceable hormone free to the average housewife rather than the alternative a goodness knows how old pice from a brazilian hormone fed beastie

Tackleberrywho

my da is in REPS, we have drains and ditches fenced off, hedges laid etc etc.

my dad gets very little info on vermin control if any from the department.
Reps disappears soon anyway, the budget is almost gone!

if I had my way I'd plant the farm in hardwood, and put a pond in the field that is low anyway, but the Govt don't want to pay me to do that!

Farmers can help the environment no end as they are out on the land and see stuff, but they are not encouraged enough to do so!

mossfort

jwshooter wrote: »

they could send the info out with there reps and grants cheques .

you dont like farmers do you?

jwshooter

mossfort wrote: »

you dont like farmers do you?

iv pulled as many lambs as any one and both side of the family are farming .

Dusty87

jwshooter wrote: »

iv pulled as many lambs as any one .

Dirty boy

skipz

Dont know if this has come up in the "raptor poisoning" debate yet, put iv heard through a person in the sport of pigeon racing that some rural breeders and racers poison around their area to try and stop birds of pray from killing pigeons. When you think of it, some of these birds are worth big money and make alot of prize money aswel. I know its completly the wrong thing to do, but some of these people are very passionate about the sport. Its just another theory that iv heard...

LostCovey

skipz wrote: »

Dont know if this has come up in the "raptor poisoning" debate yet, put iv heard through a person in the sport of pigeon racing that some rural breeders and racers poison around their area to try and stop birds of pray from killing pigeons. When you think of it, some of these birds are worth big money and make alot of prize money aswel. I know its completly the wrong thing to do, but some of these people are very passionate about the sport. Its just another theory that iv heard...

Hi Skipz,

Yes I have heard that as well.

However they would not be the first group to fall under suspicion in these particular cases, as recent cases have involved farm chemicals/veterinary drugs delivered in lamb/sheep carcass material in upland sheep farming areas. Unlikely methodology for a mainly urban group like the pigeon racing fraternity.

Just what I think.

LostCovey

jwshooter

LostCovey wrote: »

Hi Skipz,

Yes I have heard that as well.

However they would not be the first group to fall under suspicion in these particular cases, as recent cases have involved farm chemicals/veterinary drugs delivered in lamb/sheep carcass material in upland sheep farming areas. Unlikely methodology for a mainly urban group like the pigeon racing fraternity.

Just what I think.

LostCovey[/QUOTE

i was in a yard one day in the wicklow mts we heard a rip through the air and a pigeon crashed into a tree just at us .looking about we seen a falcon gaining height .
the pigeon did not stir all day ,it sat tight .