SSFIV Tier List

Generic_name01

Boo yah I've been thinking for ages theres no way hakan is no tier! I knew in my heart and slow he was bottom three but never no tier! Finally he'll get the respect he deserves! Hope his future buffs make the difference for him... *coughs* give him a teleporting crossup grapple ultra capcom *coughs

chueytoo

Fck the tier list, it helps. But it's not the law. If it was everyone might as well be chun and no one else. but a tier list depend on players with equal skill playing each other. which is impossible since yomi is involved. cause sometimes you have to guess.

Just pick who you enjoy ^^

GorySnake

Not much difference from the last one, tiers are very close in this game. I wonder if there was any discussion for Honda's matchups against the new characters.

UberPrinny_Baal

Did everyone see Filipino Champs tier list back in August?

I am confused what all these top players know that I don't (just looking at Deejays match-ups).

Like one says he's even with Zangief and at a disadvantage against T.Hawk, and the other says the opposite.

I'd love some sort of alt-text or mouseover on these things to say "This is a bad matchup because..."

I've always felt like I've had the advantage against T.Hawk in particular (no tier says that).

Owwmykneecap

Terry you're a doctor, not a real one obviously but what evs.

Devise a weighting system for the tier list based on placement in it, so that a high tier char beating a low tier char is worth less than a low beating a high etc.


Also didn't you have weighted one before? what did you do, have it based on usage?

Azza

The top 5 are pretty interchangeable in my opinion.

As for Bison I would agree with most of the match up ratings.

I don't see him beating Cammy, Ryu, Sagat, Akuma, Fei-Long or Adon. I think they are all fairly even. I think Fei might have a small advantage over Bison.

On the other hand I think Bison beats Rose and Dee Jay.

The Hound

I think bison beats shotos, especially ryu and sagat. reckon he goes even with cammy and akuma. Not sure about Fei, I seen Mago switch to Sagat because of the bison match up and that says a lot. the charge characters are defo all top tier. The game is very balanced, hence the reason we all argue over whos better than who and whos top

Azza

Surely Mago didn't switch for that reason alone. Did he actually say that was the reason or part of the reason he switched?

Its not like Fei-Long is significantly better than SSF IV Sagat.


The reason I think Fei has the advantage is Bison has no good wake up options in that match up.

Fei has an option select ex.flame kick to beat EX.SK/PC/DR (Ex.Stomp whiffs, with about even recovery), though Bison can teleport and backdash to escape.

Or Chicken Wing to catch teleports and backdash, causes EX.SK/PC/HS to whiff but looses to EX.DR.

Fei can do a safe jump or a c.lk for Bison on wake up and Bison really has no option other than blocking.

Teleport is caught by Rekka's.
Ex.Psycho can be punished by a slightly delayed Rekka on block. Needs to be delayed to avoid hitting Bison when he's sill airborne and to allow for all 3 Rekka's to hit.
Ex. DR can be focus attacked if Bison tries to hit you or Fei can use Rekka's to hit Bison if he tries to get aways as he lands. If Bison tries it in the corner, flame kick is a good counter.
Ex.Stomp is countered by moving forward to make it whiff and then landing a big punishing combo.
Ex.Scissors can't punish a light meaty attack so if he tries to use it, he gives a free punish on block.

Backdash is Bison's best option on wake up, followed by Ex.DR. However Rekka's are a nightmare for Bison because they punish him to the corner even when he's quite far away from it. Being cornered trap eliminates his only reasonable wake up options and Fei's Rekka's make him exceptionally good at putting Bison there.
After Bison's been trained not to use reversals, Fei can randomly throw in his command grab on a waking Bison. He's also got a reasonably fast overhead to help pressure Bison. If you end a block string against Bison who's in the corner with a Chicken wing you will cross up a crouching Bison.

Bison has got better pokes, and s.hk is reasonable anti air agaisnt Fei, but Fei's c.mp keeps him reasonably competitive in a footsie war. Fei's focus attack is really good for snagging pokes. His natural jumping hard kick is good if you feel a scissor kick coming and its solid anti air against Bison too.

After a blocked a lk scissors. Fei has good options. C.LP matches Bison's fastest move (C.LK) but can be buffered into Rekka which means that even though its a 50:50 who gets the hit its Fei that does more damage when he lands the hit. If Bison tries anything else at close range after a blocked he will get counter hit and Fei will land his Rekka's.

HK Chicken wing is also good. It will beat Bison's main s.mk and s.hk pokes due to invincible start up and if it hits it sets up a combo opportunity for Fei Long. If Bison tries something like c.lk the chicken wing will most likey cross Bison up or else Bison will block it but in either event its safe on block. Looses to another scissors kick (only takes a single hit) or if Bison predicts the Chicken he can nail him with a high damage combo by jumping backwards.

Bison still has his corner pressure at least. But I think Fei has the edge in this match up.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

I don't see him beating Cammy

lol

Ken B

The Hound wrote: »

the charge characters are defo all top tier. .....

Errrmmm..........

bush

Azza wrote: »

Bison really has no option other than blocking.

Whats wrong with this option?

Liquidswords

Azza wrote: »

I don't see him beating Cammy, Ryu, Sagat, Akuma, Fei-Long or Adon. I think they are all fairly even. I think Fei might have a small advantage over Bison.

Azza

Bush wrote:

Whats wrong with this option?

You can only block for so long. If that's what you spend most of your time doing you eventually going be whittled down.

Azza

By all means Liquid feel free to explain why you think I'm wrong.

bush

Azza wrote: »

You can only block for so long. If that's what you spend most of your time doing you eventually going be whittled down.

Na, the worst he can do is throw you. You block and wait for a chance to get out. I dunno why bisons feel like the only option on wakeup is to use meter. Everyone does it online to the point that is predictable.

Azza

He has an overhead and command throw too. Even if all he had was just a throw, the throw sets up the same pressure again and again.

The reason they do it, is because starting a block string/tick throw mix up is very advantageous for the person doing it. If Bison doesn't have to sit throw it and be forced to guess then he's going spend the meter to get out because meter for him doesn't do anything for him on offence. Besides in some match ups its very hard to stop Bison getting out of wake up pressure for free.

Yeah you can bait an ex.psycho wake up reversal and jump back to catch it but after a few rounds a good player won't use that move every time and you let him off the hook for free.

Doctor DooM

Bush80 wrote: »

Na, the worst he can do is throw you. You block and wait for a chance to get out. I dunno why bisons feel like the only option on wakeup is to use meter. Everyone does it online to the point that is predictable.

I can only speak for Guile but I can attack with absolutely no fear on wake up if Bison has no meter. If I can get him in the corner early, he's usually lost the round.

The Hound

I dont know why Mago switched to Sagat, he had played Fei for the whole tourny up to that point. Every Tier List I've seen Bison is 6-4 over Fei. As for Bison not havig an option on wake up apart from block is not true, as it depends on the option select, if we chose a dp and you backdash then you get a free punish. Its not like option select always works and not all os are safe. If fei does Chicken Wing os the ex PC hits hit and gets a counter hit im sure. Also blocking and then a mashed ex pc is good, a lot of bisons do that. Bison can turtle all day against shotos now, his only weakness is poor AA which may trade wit jump attacks.

Sorry Ken, what I meant is the charge characters that are high on the list i.e Chun, Bison, Boxer, Honda, Guile. They all have there bad match ups though and I dont see any of them win major tournys with the exception of Chun.

Bison has got a decent wake up compared to the non dp characters. he has a teleport and a good backdash/forward dash as well as ex DR to get him out. The reason why Bison is Top is because how much he dominates the majority of the cast and goes even with the solid characters like Fei and his gimmicks especially cross up pc and his ultra2 put him so high.

Liquidswords

Azza wrote: »

By all means Liquid feel free to explain why you think I'm wrong.

First off, Mago switching in fear of his Fei getting bent over and having his wee cheeks pounded into oblivion by Bison is a fair indicator of how the match goes. I'm 100% it was the match-up that made him switch.

Bisons wake-up may be weak but that argument relies on the Fei player having and air tight wake up game. The argument also falls when you look at how difficult it is to implement Feis OS and safe jumps. His sweep sucks donkey balls as does his throw range, combined with his 'Ohh, I've just filled my Huggies' walk speed this makes tick throws pretty ineffective when playing as Fei. You're only going to land an ultra through focus attack (one of Feis strengths which is also OFF in this match) CW will get Fei a knockdown if he isn't predictable as it's laughably easy to stuff with bisons roundhouse, link to rekkas is pretty tight as well though and the opponent knows it so good luck. While rekkas net a knockdown it will only get Bison raped if he lands in the corner with no meter, delayed rekkas for EX PC is kind of difficult and even then escaping the corner is often worth risking the damage.

The reason being that footsies and zoning is where the match is won and lost and Bison>>>Fei when it comes down to these aspects... footsies he wins with one button. While his cr.hp and cr.mp keep him from being absolutely molested the spacing required is often quite precise you have to bring your A game to stand a chance. For a character built around poking to be so outgunned at what he does best = disadvatage IMO. He loses on the ground and he loses air to air both of which he isn't used to, he's pretty much Phucked to be honest.

Of course if you try to rush him down Fei will eat you alive but if you keep it Saharan you'll be serving up a crispy bowl of L-Flakes to more or less every Fei you come across.

Azza

Hound wrote:

Every Tier List I've seen Bison is 6-4 over Fei.

Fei Long was always rated as 5:5 against Bison in vanilla. Bison got a few nerfs in Super and an Ultra that has no effect on the Fei Long match up. Fei Long was untouched. The only difference in the match up is cross up PC. Cross up PC alone is not enough to alter the score of the match up.

Hound wrote:

If Fei does Chicken Wing os the ex PC hits hit and gets a counter hit im sure.

EX.PC beats LK CK, but whiffs completely against HK CW.

Its not the option selects that are so good against Bison, its unpunishble light meaties that give Bison the problem (unless Bison uses LK Super).

Also cross up pc is not a gimmick, thats a legit wake up mix up back from the SF 2 days. Cross up ultra 2 is a total gimmick though.

LiquidSword wrote:

First off, Mago switching in fear of his Fei getting bent over and having his wee cheeks pounded into oblivion by Bison is a fair indicator of how the match goes. I'm 100% it was the match-up that made him switch.

Does Fei have significantly less bad match ups than Sagat in Super. I'm mean one could argue Bison beats Sagat but at worst its 6:4 and many Bison players would disagree with that even. I'm sure Sagat has other bad match ups, but has he alot more than Fei? I mean why did Mago not pick Chun-Li or Guile is he was worried about bad match ups or Bison in particular.

LiquidSwords wrote:

Bisons wake-up may be weak but that argument relies on the Fei player having and air tight wake up game. The argument also falls when you look at how difficult it is to implement Feis OS and safe jumps. His sweep sucks donkey balls as does his throw range, combined with his 'Ohh, I've just filled my Huggies' walk speed this makes tick throws pretty ineffective when playing as Fei. You're only going to land an ultra through focus attack (one of Feis strengths which is also OFF in this match) CW will get Fei a knockdown if he isn't predictable as it's laughably easy to stuff with bisons roundhouse, link to rekkas is pretty tight as well though and the opponent knows it so good luck. While rekkas net a knockdown it will only get Bison raped if he lands in the corner with no meter, delayed rekkas for EX PC is kind of difficult and even then escaping the corner is often worth risking the damage.

Of course my argument falls apart if I'm playing a poor Fei-Long. But I suggest you both play Nomi NL (think thats his name) Dutch Fei-Long player as Bison and and see how the match up goes. He didn't use option selects as much as light meaties. He punished my reversals 95% of the time. Bison is incredible easy to safe jump as his reversals take about 12 frames to start up, so even off a techable knock-down it isn't that hard. If I did not try and reversal, I was put under relentless pressure.

Not arguing that Fei links are not tough off Chicken wing, they are. But the guy I played above was nailing them with again 90-95% consistency (including the 1 frame link cs.hp)

Fei's ultra is still more viable than Bison's.
Focus attacks are not that bad against Bison in a footsie war. LK SK range isn't that good and alot of the time only hits once. The alternative is use neutral jump hard kick if you think a scissor kick is coming.
Fei has other set ups for his ultra too, which may not juggle well but at least its something.

Delayed rekka's against ex.psycho is not difficult. Few minutes lab practise and any reasonable Fei_Long player should be able to do it consistently.
Fei's sweep is bad, where as Bison's sweep is a high risk gamble.
Fei's throw range is average, same as Bison's.

A-Trak

Liquidswords wrote: »

Fei.

Azza wrote: »

Bison

Monday night hype that sh1t

Azza

A-Trak wrote:

Monday night hype that sh1t

Yeah but instead of trying to win, we both try to loose it to prove how bad our characters have it in that match up. :P

bush

I reckon id take an Fei with my Bipson

unky chop chop

Bah, your only arguing the weaknesses in your character match up so when your beaten whilst giving it your all you can fall back on "I told you so"

IT'S ON...HYPE

Liquidswords

Azza wrote: »

Does Fei have significantly less bad match ups than Sagat in Super. I'm mean one could argue Bison beats Sagat but at worst its 6:4 and many Bison players would disagree with that even. I'm sure Sagat has other bad match ups, but has he alot more than Fei? I mean why did Mago not pick Chun-Li or Guile is he was worried about bad match ups or Bison in particular.

Because they're dry as ****.

Of course my argument falls apart if I'm playing a poor Fei-Long. But I suggest you both play Nomi NL (think thats his name) Dutch Fei-Long player as Bison and and see how the match up goes. He didn't use option selects as much as light meaties. He punished my reversals 95% of the time. Bison is incredible easy to safe jump as his reversals take about 12 frames to start up, so even off a techable knock-down it isn't that hard. If I did not try and reversal, I was put under relentless pressure.

Not arguing that Fei links are not tough off Chicken wing, they are. But the guy I played above was nailing them with again 90-95% consistency (including the 1 frame link cs.hp)

Fei's ultra is still more viable than Bison's.
Focus attacks are not that bad against Bison in a footsie war. LK SK range isn't that good and alot of the time only hits once. The alternative is use neutral jump hard kick if you think a scissor kick is coming.
Fei has other set ups for his ultra too, which may not juggle well but at least its something.

Delayed rekka's against ex.psycho is not difficult. Few minutes lab practise and any reasonable Fei_Long player should be able to do it consistently.
Fei's sweep is bad, where as Bison's sweep is a high risk gamble.
Fei's throw range is average, same as Bison's.

Play keep away and you won't be under 'relentless pressure' from light meaties. Landing full rekkas on blocked EX CW can be 'kind of hard' I didn't say it was sh1t a brick hard just easy to mess up now and again mid match. Throw ranges may be similar but Bisons walk speed is much faster so hardly the same. One tick and Fei is out of range, 50/50 gone. Seriously, he dies to blocking lol.

For a character built around poking to be so outgunned at what he does best = disadvantage IMO.

^^^More or less what it boils down to. Rid your game of any and all moisture and you'll be flying.

Trust me this was one of Feis Top 5 worst match ups in Vanilla, I haven't played it in Super but I'm pretty sure it's still a bit of a nightmare. Why it was 5:5 on tier lists was due to them being so underdeveloped for the console characters last time around.

Azza

LiquidSwords wrote:

Because they're dry as ****.

Seems more likely to me Mago got bored of Sagat and switched rather than just not wanting to have to deal with bad match ups. Fei has just as many as Sagat.

As for playing keep away, anyone on this form will tell you that's exactly what I do in most match ups anyway included Fei Long.

As for tick throwing, Bison's movement speed matters little if any opponent can properly use delay teching. Learn delay teching and force Bison to use frame traps. If Bison can properly delay tech find your own frame traps or use the overhead. Occasionally mix in Fei's command grab. Bison doesn't have and overhead or a command grab so blocking is pretty good against him too although you do have to deal with chip damage off scissors.

Dreddybajs

How much could you trust any tier list for vanilla regarding the console characters? There was no high-level Japanese play regarding them, and I think one of the highest-rated Japanese players and obvious tier whore counterpicking the matchup is a pretty good indication. :pac:

Azza

Dreddybajs wrote:

I think one of the highest-rated Japanese players and obvious tier whore counterpicking the matchup is a pretty good indication.

Not following, I assume your referring to Mago here, what match up was he counter picking in? If you mean he switched to Fei-Long partly becaose of the Bison:Sagat match up why has he gone for a character that according to the Japanese does just as bad in the Bison match up.

And if its Mago you refer to as a tier whore why has he switched to Fei-Long?
He sure isn't top tier.

If its not Mago who you referring too?

Dreddybajs

Azza wrote: »

Not following, I assume your referring to Mago here, what match up was he counter picking in? If you mean he switched to Fei-Long partly becaose of the Bison:Sagat match up why has he gone for a character that according to the Japanese does just as bad in the Bison match up.

And if its Mago you refer to as a tier whore why has he switched to Fei-Long?
He sure isn't top tier.

If its not Mago who you referring too?

You're not following because you misread or misunderstood Hound's previous post.

The Hound wrote:

Not sure about Fei, I seen Mago switch to Sagat because of the bison match up and that says a lot.

Azza wrote:

Surely Mago didn't switch for that reason alone. Did he actually say that was the reason or part of the reason he switched?

Its not like Fei-Long is significantly better than SSF IV Sagat.

Hound specifically said that he switched from Fei to Sagat in a SSF4 match to counterpick a Bison player, not anything to do with what you were talking about.

I think Fei is very solid, and this game doesn't have a Sagat-level character - there's no obvious top tier character that dominates to pick, and as a result I think you see players picking a variety of solid characters instead.

Azza

Ah I follow now. Was under the impression that Mago was using Fei-Long to counter pick Bison not the other way round. Still I don't think Sagat is a natural counter pick for Bison but obviously you can't pick the best counter character if you don't practise him at all.