Pulling Guard.

Chris89

This argument is actually so silly, nobody is saying takedowns arent cool, just saying that pulling guard couldnt be more legit.

There is an equal amount of scoring opportunites from bottom as there is from top, one of which is a sweep which will lead to top position anyway.

Furious-Dave

Chris89 wrote: »

This argument is actually so silly, nobody is saying takedowns arent cool, just saying that pulling guard couldnt be more legit.

There is an equal amount of scoring opportunites from bottom as there is from top, one of which is a sweep which will lead to top position anyway.

It's not about takedowns being cool or not. My argument is about having a well rounded game, which to me means having throws and takedowns, as well as having good guard pulling ability.

Barry.Oglesby

I know it's cool to have academic arguments, but I'd like to have a roll call of anyone who actually competes in Jiu Jitsu on a regular basis on this thread. I'd say my money is safe if I bet that those who think guard pulling is legit will fall on the competing side and those who don't either don't compete or train jiu jitsu for some other reason than competition.

Burnt

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

... I'd like to have a roll call of anyone who actually competes in Jiu Jitsu on a regular basis on this thread...

I straight up don't compete BJJ. I've 8 years Judo; a slight take down bias I
admit , and flirted with just about everything else.

I just don't feel that any one tactic should be regarded as the be all and end
all, for dogmatic or fashion reasons. Jumping Gaurd is every bit as legitmit as
take downs with in the rule set. Each one has it's place; neither is a sliver
bullet.

columok

Stuck in my head is that real men learn clinch and pulling guard is weak. Not really a valid point considering the four pages of back and forth in this thread but since I think clinch is a beautiful thing I can't stomach conceding the clinch battle unless you're flying armbarring somebody or they're an olympic judoka.

NG-DOC

Barry.Oglesby wrote: »

I know it's cool to have academic arguments, but I'd like to have a roll call of anyone who actually competes in Jiu Jitsu on a regular basis on this thread. I'd say my money is safe if I bet that those who think guard pulling is legit will fall on the competing side and those who don't either don't compete or train jiu jitsu for some other reason than competition.

end of thread.

Jason McCabe

I think you should only pull guard if it is necessary. I.E. U realise your opponent is going to take you down and end up passed your guard. Otherwise I think you should push for top position.

It all depends really on your viewpoint. Why are you training? To only compete in BJJ? To fight MMA? To learn to defend yourself?

stevemc01

Ideally we should all have a well rounded game but what works in competition is a different story all together.

I've been at nogi events and seen matches where both guys have worked the clinch for the whole 5 mins and it goes to 1st to a takedown. Great clinch skills on display but it takes too much energy if you have potentially another 2/3 rounds in front of you.

Its won/lost on the ground I generally shoot early, if I get the takedown cool, if not I'll pull him down on top of me and work for a sweep. Not gonna waste my energy working clinch for 2/3 mins in a bjj competition.

I used to think pull guard was for pussies but to be honest its a perfectly rational thing to do if you feel it gives you an advantage in competition. Everyone should work on their takedowns though, taking two points away for a guard pull is a fine way to incentivise people to learn takedowns.

Chris89

Do you guys think that a player who pushes for a takedown at the start of a match therefore has a bad guard and needs to work on that?? Surely it works both ways.

cowzerp

Chris89 wrote: »

Do you guys think that a player who pushes for a takedown at the start of a match therefore has a bad guard and needs to work on that?? Surely it works both ways.

No there working for points that are available from that position, pulling guard is neutral and if your passed you may lose points so its not a fair comparision
i would prefer if it was used as a last chance move, but i suppose if its
legal then work away.

Chris89

There are points for sweeping available from guard, also submissions.

There are points awarded for a takedown.

Of course there is a risk of being passed but you could say the same thing about being swept from your top position, that is a silly argument.

Both are valid but it is ridiculous to say one is more valid then the next. That is akin to criticising the Italian style of football, saying they are too defensive, they still win games.

arybvtcw0eolkf

I feel kinda responsible for this discussion, since it was me who mentioned in passing on another discussion that I found puling guard was the biggest turn off for me when I looked at BJJ, and I haven't waded in sooner as I don't compete at BJJ.

It might come down to personalities, and what you've trained at.

Personally I see pulling guard as overly defensive and negative, and largely because of it I (and this is purely my own opinion) find that BJJ lacks that 'Wow' factor.

As an example, as a spectator I find myself saying more than once at the few BJJ comps I've been to "Ah for fvck sake" when someone comes out and drops on the asses from the 'get go'.

On the rare occasion I've found myself in someone's guard in a Judo competition, well we train for that too and I'm pretty comfortable with fighting from there.

In the club if I'm feeling particularly lazy or uninspired I'll pull guard and go for the sweep from there, or lay and play negative & spoil anything my partner tries.

However as a few have said, if its legal in a BJJ comp and your winning your fights from it, then so be it - thats your game, it just beats me why someone wouldn't want to assert themselves from what would (to me) appear to be a strong position (standing).

Chris89

Thats fair enough, you dont like guard pulling from a spectative point of view, which is obviously relative to ones opinion. Nobody can argue with that.

The argument as I see it however, is people snubbing guard pulling as a last resort and what have you, saying a takedown is much more advantageous route to take. This is absoloutely rubbish. A huge generalisation and doesnt take into account a particular players strengths.

Cobrinha could have never taken anyone down ever and would still have ****ed most people up.

As Barry says on the last page, its hard to argue the point that guard pulling is a poor choice in a competitive match, when every pro guard puller in the thread is a competitive player, and every one whos against it is well.. not.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Chris89 wrote: »

As Barry says on the last page, its hard to argue the point that guard pulling is a poor choice in a competitive match, when every pro guard puller in the thread is a competitive player, and every one whos against it is well.. not.

Paul Cowzer said he doesn't pull guard, and he's a competitor.

Chris89

Im not sure what youre trying to debate here, if that is your only argument and you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing then im not really interested.

And no offence to paul, but i wouldnt consider him a very active competitor anymore, unfortunately i wasnt around when he was competing either so cant comment any further on that.

Edit: Just to confirm were talking about BJJ here, i think he still competes in MMA, im not too sure.

Sid_Justice

i'm as competitive in Jiujitsu as anyone else on this thread and I don't routinely pull guard. Neither does illegalheadbutt.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Chris89 wrote: »

Im not sure what youre trying to debate here, if that is your only argument and you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing then im not really interested.

I simply pointed something out, didn't even disagree with anything.

I seen Paul compete BJJ relatively recently, almost got a beautiful flying armbar on a very good player too!..

Chris89

I give up

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

i'm as competitive in Jiujitsu as anyone else on this thread and I don't routinely pull guard. Neither does illegalheadbutt.

Well your take down's are very good, dammit when you catch a 120kg little lad like myself with that drop seoi why would you pull guard

Sid_Justice

Chris89 wrote: »

Im not sure what youre trying to debate here, if that is your only argument and you are just disagreeing for the sake of disagreeing then im not really interested.

And no offence to paul, but i wouldnt consider him a very active competitor anymore, unfortunately i wasnt around when he was competing either so cant comment any further on that.

Edit: Just to confirm were talking about BJJ here, i think he still competes in MMA, im not too sure.

who are you btw?

Chris89

Ehm, whos asking?

Sid_Justice

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPeU-dqWrfo

that isn't even guard pulling you just sat down.

Chris89

I didnt say i was good at it, just said that its silly to argue it isnt as advantageous as a take down.

Also that was well over a year ago, and also that is Chad Biddle, an indianna all state 155lber, trained in the same club and basically did that for a joke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IpVVa5mvIow

Is this me and you?

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fPeU-dqWrfo

that isn't even guard pulling you just sat down.

Maybe he slipped, and again @ 4min 30sec.. But in fairness, he did beat that girl.

Sid_Justice

I only wish I have the abs Kevin Croke has.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPh1M9H_R6U

This is my most recent grappling match on youtube.

But before we go further, can I just confirm I'm discussing the merits of guard pulling with a submission wrestler who has no rank in BJJ?

Chris89

Touche

Sid_Justice

I'm only kidding around, Next Generation is a great jiujitsu club and your clips look like you've a great jiujitsu game, beating Olga is no easy matter, she's a legit blue belt.

da-bres

Chris is an excellent blue belt who as sid justice knows has a sick game;)

chad biddle is an all state wrestling champ who would dump pretty much everyone in ireland that competes in bjj/ sub wrestlin that includes all the judo players, wrestling sadly is a different ball game, its like trying to throw josh koscheck, u have to pretty bad ass to do it. so is chris really the little girl you make him out to be??

I have been working eally hard on my wrestling, at the no gi open i was really pumped to get going, taking people down for a change!lol long story short all three matches resulted in me getting gored to the ground! i was able to sweep and use my jits to win gold in the end but only cuz of my guard, what i took from the comp was for me to stick to what im comfortable doing in competitions.

In gi i only pull guard, I think guard is the most diverse attacking position in BJJ, therefore i will always pull into it. At the highest level of bjj the majority of players pull guard.

P.s.

Bullying is not very nice

da-bres

Sid_Justice wrote: »

)

Sweet choke:)

da-bres

Winston Fierce Princess wrote: »

it just beats me why someone wouldn't want to assert themselves from what would (to me) appear to be a strong position (standing).

how is it a strong position if it can be nullified by sitting down, there is no escape option for being swept, although a competitor can escape the possibility of being thrown. It can be argued that the ego of a competitor causes an insatiable desire for dominance aka top position, while they should probably try learning the basics of guard work and open their minds to the most effective attacking position for a smaller weaker opponent... imagine if a strong guy learned guard.... that would be kul!:p

NG-DOC

This thread should've been over along time ago, but the handbags are pretty funny so i'm kinda glad it wasn't.

Sid Justice, Cowzerp and Makikomi.

You guys don't like guard pulling. Do any of you watch the ADCC, Mundials or Pan Jiu Jitsu championships? Or for that matter follow the sport BJJ scene?

By following the scene i mean, watching the top players regularly whether it's gi or nogi, not going to some random tournament in ireland or competing in one.

Sid_Justice

Sid_Justice wrote: »

guard is a fundamental and integral part of BJJ, messing about with grips standing isn't.

Sid_Justice wrote:

This before this thread kicks off and goes mental in an ideological disagreement way I'd say:

People have personal tastes and preferences.
Some people live for the guard/half guard
Some people think it's more important to be good at getting the starting top position than others

I'm not a high level BJJ guy by any stretch of the imagination but my view on BJJ is that you should practice it as if you're in a MMA fight. Pulling guard should only be done if you were getting dominated on your feet and couldn't get your own take down. IT's better to pull guard than get slammed into side control.

Seriously, why can't we have a discussion? And why can't people actually read the thread?

arybvtcw0eolkf

da-bres wrote: »

how is it a strong position if it can be nullified by sitting down

I lost interest in your post at this point.

NG-DOC wrote: »

This thread should've been over along time ago, but the handbags are pretty funny so i'm kinda glad it wasn't.

Sid Justice, Cowzerp and Makikomi.

You guys don't like guard pulling. Do any of you watch the ADCC, Mundials or Pan Jiu Jitsu championships? Or for that matter follow the sport BJJ scene?

I can only speak for myself, 'I've tried, but it bores me'.

Sid_Justice

NG-DOC wrote: »

You guys don't like guard pulling. Do any of you watch the ADCC, Mundials or Pan Jiu Jitsu championships? Or for that matter follow the sport BJJ scene?

Only when there is a famous MMA fighter competing. Watching high level grappling is one of the most boring ways to spend an afternoon. I wouldn't say I follow the scene either, I'd know about the famous guys.

I don't see what the 'handbags' is about. Is it ok to say I don't like turtle position?

NG-DOC

Winston Fierce Princess wrote: »

I can only speak for myself, 'I've tried, but it bores me'.

cool. How about justice and cowzerp?

NG-DOC

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Only when there is a famous MMA fighter competing. Watching high level grappling is one of the most boring ways to spend an afternoon. I wouldn't say I follow the scene either, I'd know about the famous guys.

I don't see what the 'handbags' is about. Is it ok to say I don't like turtle position?

ok cool sorry didn't see this until i had already posted.

so neither you or makikomi like watching bjj or grappling full stop it would seem.

I guess that really is all we needed to know. I personally love it. I know for certain Joey and Chris do, and i'd wager Barry also enjoys watching to an extent.

This is basically an argument between people who like watching our sport, and people who don't.

The people who regularly watch the sport, appreciate and understand guard pulling in a way you guys don't, because well, you find it boring and don't watch, and i don't think that's something that can be argued. so as far as i can tell, this discussion is over.

The handbags i was referring to was you calling chris not ranked in bjj and then both you and him posting random videos to try and prove some sort of strange point.

Sid_Justice

da-bres wrote: »

Bullying is not very nice

I object to this. Chris is not 'being bullied'. He basically made a sweeping statement (no pun intended ) about the merits of guard pulling and people are disagreeing. His response was to question the credentials and knowledge of people who simply disagree with him. I wasn't quite sure who chris was at the start of the conversation. There are a lot of blue belts out there who think they know everything about jiujitsu and I just found his attitude very closed minded.

TBH I've almost lost track of what's being argued. Are you guys saying anyone that doesn't pull guard is not a true bjj player? What happens when two such guys meet in a tournament, do they both pull guard at the same time?

NG-DOC

Sid_Justice wrote: »

There are a lot of blue belts out there who think they know everything about jiujitsu

the ironing is delicious.

Sid_Justice wrote: »

What happens when two such guys meet in a tournament, do they both pull guard at the same time?

Yes they do. Happens quite a lot really, especially at the lighter divisions. First to rise from a double guard pull gets either an advantage or 2 points for the dominant position.

Sid_Justice

NG-DOC wrote: »

ok cool sorry didn't see this until i had already posted.

so neither you or makikomi like watching bjj or grappling full stop it would seem.

I guess that really is all we needed to know. I personally love it. I know for certain Joey and Chris do, and i'd wager Barry also enjoys watching to an extent.

This is basically an argument between people who like watching our sport, and people who don't.

The people who regularly watch the sport, appreciate and understand guard pulling in a way you guys don't, because well, you find it boring and don't watch, and i don't think that's something that can be argued. so as far as i can tell, this discussion is over.

The handbags i was referring to was you calling chris not ranked in bjj and then both you and him posting random videos to try and prove some sort of strange point.

Has Chris a blue belt from Chris Brennan? I didn't realise at the time. I find your line of thought quite interesting. Are you saying people that don't play football but watch all of the preimership, la liga and Champions leagure know more about football than people that play in the Leinster Senior League and don't watch skysports?

I don't watch NCAA wrestling, I don't watch A-class judo, I don't watch Pan-Ams. I find watching strangers grapple about 1% as interesting as grappling myself. I appreciate guard pulling because people pull guard against me all the time. I pull guard all the time in training if I feel like it. I don't pull guard in competition regularly because I try to work for the points/top position take downs give you.

So is this discussion not about the merits of pulling guard in competition, but how much we enjoy other people pulling guard or not pulling guard? When you see a guy on the internet pull guard in the Mundials, do you clap and say to yourself "good guard pull old chap, jolly good show"?

da-bres

Winston Fierce Princess wrote: »

I lost interest in your post at this point.



I can only speak for myself, 'I've tried, but it bores me'.

thanks for your intelligent input.

Sid justice if you find high level bjj boring then you will never succeed in BJJ. I suppose BJJ is gay when you think about it...

Winston Fierce Princess i personally dont value anything you have to say about BJJ as you seem to have some sort of agenda.

arybvtcw0eolkf

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I object to this. Chris is not 'being bullied'.

Tbh, I wasn't rising to this one.

The kid held out his hand to be slapped, and got it slapped - no sympathy from me.

Sid_Justice

da-bres wrote: »

Sid justice if you find high level bjj boring then you will never succeed in BJJ.

I know, if only I watched more Mundials tapes I'd make it to one myself. :rolleyes:

da-bres

NG-DOC wrote: »

the ironing is delicious.

So delish:)

da-bres

Sid_Justice wrote: »

I know, if only I watched more Mundials tapes I'd make it to one myself. :rolleyes:

do you care about improving??

NG-DOC

Sid_Justice wrote: »

Has Chris a blue belt from Chris Brennan? I didn't realise at the time. I find your line of thought quite interesting. Are you saying people that don't play football but watch all of the preimership, la liga and Champions leagure know more about football than people that play in the Leinster Senior League and don't watch skysports?

I don't watch NCAA wrestling, I don't watch A-class judo, I don't watch Pan-Ams. I find watching strangers grapple about 1% as interesting as grappling myself. I appreciate guard pulling because people pull guard against me all the time. I pull guard all the time in training if I feel like it. I don't pull guard in competition regularly because I try to work for the points/top position take downs give you.

So is this discussion not about the merits of pulling guard in competition, but how much we enjoy other people pulling guard or not pulling guard? When you see a guy on the internet pull guard in the Mundials, do you clap and say to yourself "good guard pull old chap, jolly good show"?

If i ever meet you in person, cool.

Otherwise, i'm out of this discussion.

Sid_Justice

I don't think there was any irony in anything I said, intended or consequential. I prefixed this whole discussion with

I'm not a high level BJJ guy by any stretch of the imagination but my view on BJJ is that you should practice it as if you're in a MMA fight.

My only referral to grandeur is that I was as competitive (~same competition level) as anyone else that posted on this thread. To the best of my knowledge there has been one purple belt (clive) and one european level guy (da-bres). Not sure what grade ng-doc is, are you purple too? So other than these 2/3 I don't think I'm disqualified from speaking my mind.

Sid_Justice

da-bres wrote: »

do you care about improving??

Yes, of course I do. Although, I'm not as interested as people like your self, Mark curry and Chris are. I'm happy with my snails pace. If I wanted to increase the rate of improvement I'd train more often and with better training partners, I wouldn't order some DVD boxsets.

Sid_Justice

NG-DOC wrote: »

If i ever meet you in person, cool.

Otherwise, i'm out of this discussion.

Hey dude, if we ever meet in person I hope we have something more interesting to discuss than guard pulling.

da-bres

I am so deterred by your attitude.