UFO's - what do you believe?

dyer

I've been quite curious about ufo's and ufology ever since witnessing them myself on numerous occasions going back over the years and im interested to know what the general irish public feel about it. I talk openly about those experiences with friends and strangers alike.. 9/10 will laugh it off and ask me what i was on, even though they know me well enough not to make something like that up, but theres always a small percentage of people with their own stories to share.

There are a few things about discussing this phenomenon that really irk me.

First of all, the stigma that's attached to it. Let me say, first and foremost, i am a scientist at heart, but i dont like the constrictions or the egoism of modern science. Such small minded thinking does not allow room for the advancement of knowledge. The subject of ufology gets relegated to the realm of conspiracy theory, or in the case of this board, the paranormal forum, point in case. Should not the study of attempting to prove the existence of extraterristrial life not belong to the sciences? It might well be the most important discovery of mankinds existence, and one which could advance our civilization beyond our imagination.

If you speak about witnessing ufo's you're either a crackpot, hallucinating, lying, on drugs, or any other of the random mundane reasons that allow this issue to be swept under the carpet. The fact is, there are hundreds and thousands of documented pages of evidence, eye witness reports, photographs, video photage, radiation sampled from suspected landing sites etc.. substantial evidence from retired military, presidents, generals, pilots, and the general public at large.. that all suggest otherwise.

Its hard not to approach this subject without broaching on conspiracies, but one must consider what any government would do to get their hands on extraterrestrial technology, especially the military. It's well known there's a branch of the american government that is not only highly secretive, but seemingly has more power than the president himself. Recently the money traced back to this organization was said to be FOUR fold the entire american military budget. We're talking trillions here. It's no secret that russia / the former soviet union and many other states were and still are just as interested in this subject, while making it appear to the public that there is absolutely no reason to be. most of this information is freely available, you just have to look for it. some of it leaked, some of it declassified, some of it attained through the freedom of information act.

so whats next then, people want hard evidence, sure.. but any evidence or supposed craft that were salvaged were taken away by the military and all this is still kept highly classified. only public opinion can change that. if were happy to accept what we saw were some weather balloon or swallow whatever other bs they use to debunk and demean the issue, that will never change. i recently read about the phoenix lights, the official report given was that a US stealth bomber flew over the area on a training run and dropped flares. one witness said what he saw was a black triangle in the sky with massive lights on it, the exterior of the craft was described as like looking at the heat rising from the road on a hot day. he said you could have parked the entire US stealth bomber fleet on ONE wing. this massive ship, was also completely silent and so big it blocked out the stars. in his words, he said there wasnt a word big enough in the english language to describe its enormity.

some argue its not possible to travel at the speed of light. how do we know that? they could be millions of years more advanced than we are. their craft readily defy the laws of known physics, and have been known to travel into and through water with the same speed and maneuverability. they might even exist in another dimension (many scientific models of the universe need at least 11 anywhere up to 30 dimensions to succeed). the idea of atoms and molecules was proposed long before microscopes or any such apparatus existed.. of course people laughed at that then too. it was only last year the first atoms were even photographed. science is rarely a linear process, as much as wed like it to be. just because we cant see it, really doesnt mean there's nothing there, and just because its science, doesnt mean its perfect either. entire branches of modern mathematics and physics rest on theories that havent been proved yet and might never be, there is a proof for that also! we are like monkeys with magnifying glasses compared to the technology these beings possess.

just in case you might not have noticed it yet, i am pretty certain aliens exist, and that they are already here. is that not a profound statement to make? sure it is.. but seeing really is believing and frankly the evidence at this point is too overwhelming to ignore. i would like to see people get beyond the limits of skepticism and ignorance and to start taking this seriously once and for all.

it begs the question, what are they doing here? who knows.. but they dont appear to be hostile, wed surely know about that if they were. they could be here for our resources.. there is some postulation that their craft need water to function.. possibly to power a fusion drive of some kind. in 'nasa the smoking gun' there are leaked nasa videos showing how ufos gravitate towards hurricanes and storm systems.. maybe they get energy from these sources. there are other theories, that they are preventing us from destroying ourselves.. and preparing earth and our advancement into the future, and perhaps even easing our psyche into the acceptance of their very existence. they have been known to disable nuclear weapons. in one instance they disabled 20 warheads, an entire missile silo during the cold war. this was americas frontline defense in the event of nuclear fallout and was reported by one of the chief launch operators at the time who is now retired. in another instance a ufo was caught on camera beaming lights down on a nuclear test missile and disabling it while it travelled at hundreds of miles an hour above the clouds.

i could go on but i wont..

that old addage rings through.. truth really is stranger than fiction

there are some reports relevant to ireland posted here
http://www.ufoinfo.com/sightings/ireland.shtml

discuss

rafared

Tell you what I have noticed is that any thread on here about UFO's quickly becomes a piss take wheras threads on Ghosts and Psychics are treated with real seriousness by almost everyone. It is for this reason I dont bother posting here much.

Diabhal Beag

I've never seen a UFO myself. Would love to.

bigeasyeah

I always took the whole ufo thing with a pinch of salt.Its interesting and I try to keep an open mind and agree with your comments as regards modern science attitudes.
However what always got me is that a ufo is precisely that-an unidentified flying object.It literally could be anything.Couple that with the fact that most photos and video of these things are of a bad quality.

murrayp4

There's a very good documentary called I Know What I Saw on youtube

lubie76

What makes me most sceptical is that out of all these thousands of people who claimed to have had UFO sightings, not one person has managed to get any decent quality evidence on video. Apart from that fake video of area 54 and the alien autopsy, I haven't seen anything worth entertaining. Stephen Hawkins is a believer though so who knows?

Nick Dolan

I used to absolutely believe UFOs were definetly ET Visitors, was a huge X files nut and mad interested in all the paranormal stuff (did anyone else collect that Xfactor publication, full of creepy tales and wierd happenings, way before there was a TV karoake show full of creepy singers and wierd songs?) .I still am interested only now Im a confirmed sceptic. When you start digging around the UFO stuff you find piles and piles of photos, stats, videos etc and think wow! thats a huge pile of evidence . Not wanting to set cat among pigeons its very like being brought up in a religion and what you learn constantly reinforces your view. But in the end theres no evidence that stands up to scrutiny. As for all the conspiracy stuff, its all nonsence (The Military wont show us its secret plane! ) and explanations that UFOs dont have to follow the laws of physics is just a cop out. Im a firm defender of much ridiculed "Mainstream Science" and get cranky when people dismiss it as "Well its all made up so my crazy idea must be just as good" . That dog wont hunt monseignor! But off all the ufo films Fire In The Sky scared the living crap out of me, great stuff

dyer

they could literally be anything.. but they exert signs of intelligence, they fly in formation, they change direction at very high speed and sightings of close encounters describe actual ships, with distinct shape, lights etc. they have been known to be able to change in physical size and brightness as well. they have been seen as far back as documented history allows and well before rocket propulson was ever a reality. they exist as anomalies, only because worldview has not accepted that they are real.

there are good photos and videos out there you just have to look. the irony is, the better they are, the more they are cited as being fake.

i found some good ones here earlier
http://www.top10ufo.com/photos/thumbnails.php?album=4

i can recommend these few documentaries .. they took a more open minded view point on the whole thing, with many, many credible witnesses.

Nasa: The smoking gun .. already mentioned above (contains photage and radio recordings of astronauts in communication with ground control intercepted by a cable transmission operator in canada during NASA missions)
Fastwalkers
Out Of The Blue
Deep Sea UFO's

UFOs dont have to follow the laws of physics is just a cop out

i never said they dont have to follow the laws of physics, i said they defy the laws of known physics. its quite rational to assume that civilizations much more technologically advanced than our own have found ways around the problems we now face.. in terms of quantum phyiscs and problems with energy & gravity etc. i do believe a healthy dose of skepticism is needed, but the fact remains, very credible and factual evidence exists amidst all the crazy stuff.

as for governmental secrecy, its not hard to understand why it would be kept secret.

http://www.presidentialufo.com/
http://www.majesticdocuments.com/official/trumanarchives.php

Nick Dolan

well heres where we will have to agree to disagree because blurry shapes whizzing past dont mean evidence of extra terrestial activity to me. And lobing together lots of wierd sightings people have seen in the sky cant be claimed as evidence of anything. Its not about being open minded, its about being scientifically minded. I dont believe theres a conspiracy theory at all i think its alot of parnoid ideas thrown together that sound really cool.

Werent the majestic documents faked, didnt they find Trumans signatures lifted from other documents?

okioffice84

dyer wrote: »

i found some good ones here earlier
http://www.top10ufo.com/photos/thumbnails.php?album=4

Ugh, some of those are insultingly bad.

dyer

some of them are obviously fake, some of them arent. if youve ever seen one, its quite easy to tell the difference. you dont need video evidence if youve seen them first hand, thats for the skeptics.. who wont believe it either way. you can always say its fake or cgi or whatever, but if you see it, you cant deny it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iKzzsM-__sg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-Hg1fb9TMsk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4Q_vbv_WOdM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6HenxIy8VNo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBlyYQECGeM

And lobing together lots of wierd sightings people have seen in the sky cant be claimed as evidence of anything.

what would you suggest then? have you ever seen one yourself?

ive seen a chrome cigar shaped ufo at about 50 feet that cruised over my head once at around 2am. i can tell you its not like anything ive ever seen before, but i have recognised similiar craft in drawings and videos. it was completely silent and had what can only be described as a cloud of electrical or electromagnetic field around it. this is a world wide phenomena, its happening everywhere.. that suggests evidence of something.

ps. im not sure about the truman documents, but his interest in ufo's is well known. i wll investigate that further.

it might not be a conspiracy so much as a coverup. conspiracy inspires the wrong ideas because again, it awakens the idea of paranoid, dillusional people. a coverup however, is not hard to grasp. you can bet your life the military are working on top secret aircraft and weapons.. what level of clearance do you think would apply to the knowledge of information pertaining to ufos, or even possessing one? government officials, even presidents, have been denied access to this information.

to say there is evidence of nothing is just condescending on so many levels. im not asking you to believe, your beliefs dont change the reality that something so far unexplainable, is actually happening. we can at least safely assume, these craft are not of this earth.. we simply dont have that technology, thats a scientific fact.. can we not derive from that statement, that they might well be controlled by intelligent life not of this earth?

bad2dabone

I retain an open mind about UFO's but there are so many loonies and fakers that its hard to shift through all the data to find something thats totally compelling.
A very level friend told me that he had an experience and I believe he did, although it may have been some military - thingy

Basically he was living in rural wales with his mother and they were driving home last on night when the valley was light up as bright as day and something whooshed overhead, scaring the bejeesus out of him and his mother. He maintains the light had a strange quality about it, I'm thinking flare or low flying jet but he's sure it was a UFO.

I suppose i'll only believe 100% if I see one with my own eyes.

murrayp4

I think as the 'paranormal' goes, the ufo phenomenon is the most interesting. I've come to the conclusion that some people probably have seen things which they and most others could/can not explain. That's not to say that they're extra-terrestrial in origin, although that could not be discounted.
As far as conspiracy theories go, I'd be dubious. Chances are governments know as much about the phenomenon as Joe Soap. To admit that there could be something in their airspace that they cannot identify or control would be an admission of weakness- this type of thinking would have taken root during the cold war, where no side wanted to show the other it couldn't control its own airspace.

Nekro Man

I try to retain an open mind when it comes to UFOs and alien life, i mean in a universe so expansive, it seems more likely that there is life on other planets than ours, i mean, the chances of us being the most advanced life form in the universe? we watch X factor for fup sake...

as for the UFO sightings, i'm on the fence, i'm half believing it and half not, i'd have to see one for myself to be convinced tbh...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QzmmlaZ9b9I

roswell, what do people think?

dyer

murrrayp4: you raise a valid point, not being able to identify aerial craft in ones own airspace is quite a serious breach of national security and does indeed lead to a sense of vulnerability, although knowing human nature, its hard to imagine the agenda of the CIA, NSA, NORAD etc is really to serve and protect the public interest from mass hysteria. they are probably more afraid of another superpower getting a hold and making use of the technology before they do.

im not sure what to think about roswell. the initial statements seem to suggest something did happen that night.. maybe a case of there being no smoke without a fire?

The supposed autopsy first gained prominence during the 1990s when Ray Santilli, a London-based video entrepreneur, promoted a 17 minute black and white film purporting to be footage of the autopsy. In 1995, the film was sold to television networks internationally and broadcast with high viewer ratings in more than 32 countries.

In 2006, Santilli admitted the film was not entirely authentic, claiming that it was a reconstruction of lost footage of an actual alien autopsy film that he viewed and that a few of the frames embedded in his video were from the original. After this admission, Santilli's film is largely considered a hoax.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alien_autopsy

i read up on the truman majestic documents here

which states :

The FBI investigated the documents, and concluded they were forgeries, based primarily on an opinion rendered by the U.S. Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI). Opinions among UFO researchers are divided: Some argue[who?] the documents may be genuine while others contend they are phony, primarily due to errors in formatting and chronology.[citation needed]

In 1985, another document mentioning MJ-12 and dating to 1954 was found in a search at the National Archives.[3] Its authenticity is also highly controversial. The documents in question are rather widely available on the Internet, for example on the FBI website, where it is concluded they are fraudulent (linked below).

this led me to another document relating to UFO researcher Bob Sparks.

here are some citations from the document:

Brad Sparks is the leading expert on the CIA Robertson Panel and the history of the CIA investigation of UFO's, having interviewed every living CIA official involved with the Panel and having secured the release of the CIA's UFO files over the years since 1972. He was the first researcher to discover that the Director of the CIA had been briefed on UFO's, the first to obtain the release of the CIA Director's UFO briefing memos, and the first to obtain the release of the complete, uncensored and declassified CIA Robertson Panel report and Minutes, as well as many other important CIA documents, some of which have never been released again to the public (because the CIA "lost" the documents). Brad discovered that the Air Force took known IFO cases falsely disguised as sensational unexplained UFO cases then planted them on the CIA and the Robertson Panel in a successful effort to sabotage the Panel and the CIA's UFO investigation. The AF's special file of 63 best UFO Unknowns was deliberately suppressed from the CIA.

Brad also discovered that the CIA had concluded at that point that UFO's were extraterrestrial (until the AF deception), and this was confirmed by the CIA director and deputy director of its Office of Scientific Intelligence. Brad carried out a systematic investigation of the CIA's UFO activities, which included interviewing some 100 CIA Directors, Deputy Directors, Assistant Directors, and various intelligence officials of the CIA, NSA, DIA, Air Force and Naval Intelligence and other agencies, since 1975. He has reviewed 100,000's of pages of declassified CIA, NSA, AF, Army, Navy and other agency documents on UFO's and agency background histories in the course of his research. He is presently reconstructing the full history of U.S. Intelligence Community involvement with UFO's. Brad has uncovered the fact that the AF made a milestone policy decision on July 28, 1952, to discount and/or reject anecdotal UFO reports and to henceforth stress instrumented and technical UFO detections and sightings, and he believes this is the watershed event in all of governmental history in UFO studies.

Though a lifelong skeptic of Roswell and the ETH (Extraterrestrial Hypothesis for UFO's), Brad remains open to scientific evidence proving otherwise and actively investigates possible evidences to overturn his skepticism. In 2000 while doing non-UFO-related research, Brad accidentally discovered the TOP SECRET U.S. government policy response to Roswell, which should not exist if Roswell was essentially a non-event as he had long believed. Brad is actively investigating this disturbing discovery. He has also been forced to demolish the "Mogul balloon" theory of Roswell he had long believed in, when he discovered Prof. C. B. Moore's bizarrely fabricated Mogul balloon flight path, and has worked with Dr. David Rudiak in plotting the correct probable balloon path which passed nowhere near the Roswell Debris Field.

http://www.mufon.com/documents/2007MUFONSymposium-NewMJ12Revelations.pdf

i wonder if the irish government conducts any research in this field...

you can grab a fair amount of documents from the UK MoD disclosed recently under the freedom of information act here http://www.nationalarchives.gov.uk/ufos/

im interested in studying other sources outside of the US because alot of that information is misleading. There were officials appointed specifically for this very reason.. to spread false information and confuse the public.

Nick Dolan

dyer wrote: »

This is a world wide phenomena, its happening everywhere.. that suggests evidence of something.

your beliefs dont change the reality that something so far unexplainable, is actually happening. we can at least safely assume, these craft are not of this earth.. we simply dont have that technology, thats a scientific fact.. can we not derive from that statement, that they might well be controlled by intelligent life not of this earth?

I wouldnt agree 100% with that logic . All the stuff peolpe see or hear is only attributable to a common cause if you want them to. Someone who believes ufo sightings are aliens see lights in the sky and say aliens, religious people will say angels, believers in ghosts can say spirits . I have seen bright stars disappear, things streak across the sky, stuff like this happens. You can say, but i saw it, it was right there and im not making it up. Can every single sighting be explained away? Yes it can. Look at all the sailors who swore to seeing mermaids, the thousands of people who say the sun moved in fatima and knock and watch a few of Derren Browns programmes to see how the mind can be made believe anything.

dyer

theres a very big difference between seeing lights in the sky and seeing a solid functional alien craft. you obviously want to explain away mysterious things with rational explanations and thats fine, but it offers zero explanation for the small percentage of cases that are unexplainable on any fundamental scientific level. yes stars disappear behind clouds, yes meteors streak across the night sky, but ufos, especially close encounters, are something entirely different. telling someone what they saw and saying it could be a star going behind a cloud or a meteor or whatever is like telling someone they dont know the difference between a cow and a sheep. im not saying some of these sightings cant be explained away by reason, of course they can, but there certainly are ones that cant. is there any point in quoting me the history of popular world views prior to the scientific revolution? we dont live in that era now and most of us dont rely on religion to explain the unexplainable. i guess they dont exist simply because science cant quantify or answer the question, or because you havent experienced it yourself. you might do well to remember, the further we progress in science, the weirder it gets, and much less like the logical way we see or imagine reality itself to function.

i cant understand people who are unable to question the unknown without better purpose. all the scientific information we have is borrowed and recycled, handed down by previous generations over centuries and by the few individuals that thought outside the box (who were either ostricized or burnt at the stake for their forward thinking) and looked where others did not. the moment the security of that foundation is threatened or challenged people resort to defending not science itself, but perhaps their fear of the unknown, or simply out of fear of leaving the safety it provides. i dont think were actually 'wired' properly to grasp the concept of being visited by intelligent life from elsewhere in the universe, and so im not surprised most think its a complete and utter joke who will do anything to find another way to deal with it but we dont know everything, and there is still an infinite amount of possibility of things to be learned that could change the way we live our lives on this earth forever.

so far no answer science has offered even comes close to satisfactorily explaining what has been happening. i dont believe what i, or thousands of other people have seen, is simply a figment of the imagination.. swamp gas, balloons, secret military planes, reflections or whatever. until that question is answered ill keep looking, and keep asking. isnt that how new discoveries are made? or would the sceptics be happier if everyone acted like ostriches and stuck their heads in the proverbial sand and pretended like nothing is happening?

ps. what does derren brown (a former religious fanatic) have to do with anything here?

Elessar

Having seen a "UFO" myself I am a firm believer that there are aircraft in the sky that are not currently known to mainstream science.

Basically, I was in Mexico in 2000, traveling back from a day trip to the mayan ruins. As I sat on the coach I looked up into the sky and saw a round metallic object come out of the clouds (maybe 5000ft ASL). It zoomed around the sky in a backwards Z shape, making maneuvers at such speed it was impossible that it was a regular aircraft. It would stop suddenly, then zoom up or down, then stop suddenly. I am not crazy and I know what I saw was an actual solid metal object moving in ways currently impossible.

Now, whether these are alien/interdimensional/whatever beings, I don't know. I think more likely, they are top secret experimental military aircraft that the western powers have been working on since WW2. I think, from the multitude of data and sightings available, and from my own sighting, that whoever is operating these craft has become able to manipulate gravity itself. I can't think of any other explanation as to how these craft work. There has been a lot of work done on this and the theory as to how they work are available to read (look up, Eugene Podkletknov, whos work, incidentally, has been picked up by NASA for their own experiments).

I'm open to the possibility that these craft could be controlled by extra-terrertrial intelligences though. I'm starting to sound crazy now :pac:

One poster mentioned why there is no good quality footage available. I think the problem here lies in that if I were to capture an alien ship hovering above my head on HD video with clear pictures of beings in the windows, people would call it fake because it would be too good to be true. You can't win.

There is some compelling "evidence" available though. I could list quite a few, as I'm sure could the OP (and maybe we should, to encourage discussion in the thread). What about the video taken in the UK that showed, in clear daylight, crop circles being made by balls of light clearly flattening the crops?


What about the Project Blue Book investigator J. Allen Hynek (a respected scientist), employed by the US government in the 50s and 60s to examine and explain away the wave of sightings over the country? A staunch sceptic, after years of examining cases he became very open to the possibility something strange was going on.

And lets not forget more recently the sworn affidavit released on the death of Lt. Walter Haut 509th Air Force Public Information Officer in 1947, that what had crashed in Roswell New Mexico was indeed an extra terrestrial craft, and that he had seen it and two bodies that were recovered - "I am convinced that what I personally observed was some kind of craft and its crew from outer space".

Nothing solid, of course, but adds fuel to the fire.

Nick Dolan

all the information we have is mostly borrowed and recycled

that episode of Futurama comes to mind "Something tells me i could easily beat those trained professionals!"



I was mentioning Derren Brown because he manages to trick even intelligent alert people, some of them even knowing they are being tricked, into seeing and believing illusions.

..... but we dont know everything, and there is still an infinite amount of possibility of things to be learned that could change the way we live our lives on this earth forever?

We dont know everything but take that old chestnut the earth. We know its (roughly) globe shaped and that 400 years from now noone will unleash a fantastic new theory that the earth is pryamid shaped and turn things on their head. Now if everything was as cut and dried as that we would be laughing. But thats another debate (and theres a thread here somewhere about trusting science where a couple of us tangle) but my point is we know what we know.


Well not much more i can add to the thread really, just wanted to put my scepitcal view across. Until someone starts on about abductions.......:)

dyer

my point was not to make out like i know any better than a trained professional.. (although i have done a course in applied sciences and currently studying science so i do know a bit about what im talking about). my point was the way people use it as a tool to fight something they dont believe in, even if there is evidence to the contrary, and thats not scientific in any sense of the word. there are many scientists who do study and believe in ufos but people dont seek them out because theyve already made up their minds. there are scientists who are afraid to open their mouth and speak about what theyve seen because of the repercussions it could have on their careers.

what derren brown does could essentially be studied and performed by anyone, a mix of subliminal suggestion, hypnosis, memory training etc, things that can also be explained away through psychology and science.. ironically if you look at the subject of ufo's and public thinking there is alot of psychology attached to the way the subject is currently being viewed and treated.

theres not much more i can say on the subject either, and im not gonna sit around trying to defend the reality of ufo's til im blue in the face for what its worth i didnt believe in them either until i saw them. after i did, i remember thinking how strange it was to have gone from believing there was life in the universe, to knowing there was.

as Elassar said, its impossible that these are regular aircraft. they dont even need wings, and so must be manipulating gravity in some way. some of these objects people have seen have been as big as a mile to 3 miles in diameter (recorded on radar) and tracked to be travelling at least 10,000 mph.. think about that for a moment. if someone can give a scientific answer or working example im all ears. i dont think our technology is that advanced yet.. if it was, where is the science to support it? the general consensus is travelling to neighbouring stars and planets is so far 'science fiction' (which is the biggest reason why i believe they are extraterrestrial). i remain open to the idea the military might have copied it and possess some prototype craft. then again, even if they did get their hands on anything, its possible theyd have no idea what todo with it. what would they need conventional military aircraft for then? or rockets that take years to reach our neighbouring planets when they could do it in seconds?

another poster suggested watching this docu in a previous post:
I Know What I Saw

i invite skeptics to watch it and give their honest opinions.

id love to hear of other peoples experiences too if they have any to share.

Dude111

I dont understand how skeptics can deny UFOs!!

We are in space right? (Earth) -- Wouldnt it make sense that crafts from other parts of SPACE would come visiting?

Diabhal Beag

What are the most famous Irish UFO claims?

dyer

i couldnt tell ya tbh, ive only just started looking. came across a story about a ufo that supposedly crashed in boyle, co. roscommon in '96, which was followed by the area being closed off with american military showing up on the scene.. havent found anything solid relating to it online yet. that event was meant to have kicked off the ufosocietyofireland.ie .. had a look at their website, seems a little quack really which is a shame.

part of me would love if skeptics were right and ufos were nothing more than secret military experiments or at least something tangible. part of me says that just doesnt add up.

some more links for ye ..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_UFO_sightings
interesting that the oldest recorded case there was 1886 .. long before the first airplane ever left the ground!

there is evidence of some kind of a ufo in christopher colombus' journals ..
http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case487.htm

Triangle UFO night view, Ireland - January 2010
Triangle UFO over Belfast, Ireland - 14 May 2010 + zoom
UFO Waterford, Ireland April 29th 2010 22:05hrs

weeder

http://www.top10ufo.com/photos/displayimage.php?album=4&pos=1

was looking at some of the links posted and came accross this, whats interesting is i remember seeing somthing exactly like this when i was younger but it was black dots, I remember at the time looking out my window at it for about 2-3 minutes solid and wonder wtf was that but eventually i just wrote it off as birds really far away but thinking back birds dont really fly like that and ive certainly never seen any birds like it since.

ive always believed there is some life on other planets somewhere but wether they have or can visit here is beyond me.

maninasia

The Phoenix lights sighting was probably a low flying US stealth craft, using some electrical propulsion system and a lighter than air vehicle type. They've been seen in the UK too, usually near NATO air bases.

http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=video&action=print&num=1196532024
http://ufocasebook.conforums.com/index.cgi?board=unitedkingdom&action=display&num=1069961318


Hmm... US, UK, Belgium, Australia...all in NATO or connected to US defense programs.

As for the other sighting in Mexico, that's really interesting. I don't think that is man-made.

loldog

maninasia wrote: »

The Phoenix lights sighting was probably a low flying US stealth craft, using some electrical propulsion system and a lighter than air vehicle type.

The former Governor of Arizona saw them and some years later came clean with what he really thought:

maninasia

Nice post, very interesting to see him admit what he felt.

I still think it's likely to have been a lighter than air vehicle, due to it's size and slow movement.

Air force base in vicinity- Luke air force base is the largest fighter training base in the Western World!
http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/facility/luke.htm




The only thing that seemed to be unusual about this report compared to the 1000s of other black triangle sightings is the number of witnesses and the quality of the video recording. Some witness said the thing took off at incredible speeds, but only a small minority and not in the main sighting area.
Why it had lights all over it, who knows?

Zombrex

dyer wrote: »

Should not the study of attempting to prove the existence of extraterristrial life not belong to the sciences?

No.

Science does not try to prove the validity of certain explanations, it attempts to explain observed phenomena through modelling and testing

Part of the problem I think some paranormalists have with science is that they think science should be focusing around their particular explanation, where as science actually focuses around the phenomena itself and any explanation that can accurately explain it (the key word being accurately).

If the paranormal explanation can be tested and modeled then it is fine as far as science is concerned, but if it doesn't that is not science's fault or issue.

dyer wrote: »

If you speak about witnessing ufo's you're either a crackpot, hallucinating, lying, on drugs, or any other of the random mundane reasons that allow this issue to be swept under the carpet.

And what is actually wrong with that?

This is the point I think, those things explain what was seen, or at least explain them much better than any paranormal explanation I've heard including alien aircraft

So the question is what is the priority here? An accurate explanation for the observed phenomena or support for a particular exciting explanation?

The former is the goal of science. It doesn't matter if the explanation is boring so long as it is accurate, if the goal is genuine explanation rather than producing exciting explanations.

dyer wrote: »

Recently the money traced back to this organization was said to be FOUR fold the entire american military budget.

Which organisation is this? And they get this money from where exactly?

dyer wrote: »

so whats next then, people want hard evidence, sure.. but any evidence or supposed craft that were salvaged were taken away by the military and all this is still kept highly classified.

Such speculation is rather pointless. What is the difference between evidence that is hidden and no evidence at all?

dyer wrote: »

if were happy to accept what we saw were some weather balloon or swallow whatever other bs they use to debunk and demean the issue, that will never change.

Why are you not happy to accept what you saw was "some weather balloon"? Isn't that a more likely explanation?

This goes back to the issue of a boring but likely explanation vs an exciting but unlikely explanation.

dyer wrote: »

some argue its not possible to travel at the speed of light. how do we know that?

We don't know that, but it is the current understanding of physics.

So when assessing what some guy in a field thinks he saw vs over turning 100 years of physics which do you think is more likely?

This is the thing that I really don't get with this subject? Why are people so happy to take as accurate what someone thinks they saw, when we know how easily it is for people to be mistaken about what they saw, yet so quick to dismiss actual supported scientific understanding that is tested far more than claims of what people think they saw.

dyer wrote: »

i would like to see people get beyond the limits of skepticism and ignorance and to start taking this seriously once and for all.

Meh to be honest it is taken seriously it is just the answers are boring which people in general don't like.

maninasia

I think there are definitely unexplainable events according to modern technology.

http://cosmiclog.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2006/06/27/4350564-your-ufo-sightings?pc=25&sp=150#discussion

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread439588/pg12

Certainly some of these stories are made up but definitely not all.

dyer

i can see that youre a total skeptic Wicknight, id just like to ask you up front if youve ever had any experiences yourself?

im glad people have decided to continue replying to this topic because it seemed to have died off there for a while, perhaps, and partly due to my own attempts to come to terms with the information that is floating around out there, irrespective of fact or evidence.. and that was a mistake ill quite willingly admit to.

on the other hand, youre dealing with a subject that is so precarious it warrants social suicide, it could destroy your career. im willing at least, to listen to people who have moved beyond that point, they might not be telling the whole truth, they might be misleading us, but whatever theyre doing, is at least closer to the truth than saying nothing at all.

i could give ya a scientific list as long as history itself that scientists, the military etc use to explain this subject.. mostly involving plasmas or ball lightning, theories (not even proven fact) in their own right, theories attempting to descredit what people are and have been experiencing.. and btw, correct if me im wrong, but im quite sure there are more ufo's recorded on video than any plasma phenomenon or other postulated idea that exists.. so if you want to throw ideas around.. YOU bring the evidence to defend exactly what it is youre trying to defend, in principle or any other form. do you know the the czech republic have records dating back to the 1600's observing the exact same type of craft people are seeing today.. that erradicates any modern aerial explanation we have in that respect.

if you really want to be a scientist.. then start working, listening, paying attention, start reading the libraries of information that pertain to this subject.. you think these ideas are so far fetched they must be insane? read what some of your governments have to say on the subject.. of which even they have come to no definitive point of understanding.

http://www.ufoevidence.org/topics/cometa.htm
http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/FreedomOfInformation/PublicationScheme/SearchPublicationScheme/UapInTheUkAirDefenceRegionVolume1.htm
UFO DISCLOSURE 2010 CANADIAN DEFENCE MINISTER PAUL HELLYER

those are just for a start. ill openly admit most of the information out there available to you is mental and doesnt make any sense, but is hardly any proof to say nothing is happening.

Science does not try to prove the validity of certain explanations, it attempts to explain observed phenomena through modelling and testing

that is so naive in so many ways i cant possibly express it. science is not just a what has been before us.. and you fail to conceive that science is not the work of one man, its the collective expression of human history, of brilliant minds who for the most part, were well beyond modern thinking in any sense of the word, and to most other extents were burned for their forward way of thinking. its easy to sit back comfartably on this 'couch' of facts were privvy to without having any real insight or understanding into what they really mean. real science is not safe, and the people who have the courage to face that and leave others behind is a price they pay with their sanity, their blood, just so the rest of us can sit around and enjoy the fruits of their labour. science begins with observation, this phenomenon, begins with an observation, why there is no calculable evidence is beyond anyones imagination. youre pretty much telling me we shouldnt believe in the human experience, because that is not real, while we should whole heartedly rely on science, which is an external creation of that very same thing we shouldnt trust.. please, think about that for a moment. there is evidence something is happening, just because we havent had the opportunity to dissect and study it yet in any significant way doesnt mean it doesnt exist!

Originally Posted by dyer

If you speak about witnessing ufo's you're either a crackpot, hallucinating, lying, on drugs, or any other of the random mundane reasons that allow this issue to be swept under the carpet.
And what is actually wrong with that?

This is the point I think, those things explain what was seen, or at least explain them much better than any paranormal explanation I've heard including alien aircraft

So the question is what is the priority here? An accurate explanation for the observed phenomena or support for a particular exciting explanation?

The former is the goal of science. It doesn't matter if the explanation is boring so long as it is accurate, if the goal is genuine explanation rather than producing exciting explanations.

thats simply your opion... and you have zero evidence to back up your claims because youre not bothered looking or simply lack any real experience in the phenomenon itself. those scientific explanations dont describe whats happening, not even close.. so as far as the goal of science is concerned (which i whole heartedly believe in), has not yet succeeded. in certain respects this subject as it stands with respect to science, is akin to asking a person if they believe whether god exists or not. except, mind you, there are truck loads of evidence to support the existence of ufos, in terms of reliable witness reports, photos, videos, radar data, radiation samples of landing sites etc.. in 2009 alone more governments released their collective data on ufos than any other time since this ball started rolling. you might want to ask yourself why they are releasing this data.. of a supposed 'fairy tale' phenomenon that only 'crack pots' indulge their time in.

Originally Posted by dyer
Recently the money traced back to this organization was said to be FOUR fold the entire american military budget.

Which organisation is this? And they get this money from where exactly?

investigate it for yourself..

Such speculation is rather pointless. What is the difference between evidence that is hidden and no evidence at all?

you already assume, we are at the pinacle of intelligent life, but are very, very far from comprehending the technology intelligent beings that might exist out there could have in their possession, and who could well be, millions of years more advanced than us. think of how far our technology, which exploded in the last century alone, compared to the entire existence of the human race. there are parts of our galaxy completely obscured due to where our planet exists in this spiral of dust and gases, and by our rationale, of what could be a life inhabiting planet, we still pretend to know exactly what is out there regardless of whether we can see half of that picture or not. no evidence of radiowaves, perhaps we havent even evolved enough yet to consider other more advanced means of communication. i dont profess any of this to be fact, i remain open minded and try to think outside of the realm of what we term 'possibility'. i truly believe something is happening right now and were being exposed to it slowly but surely. i cannot negate my own experiences, nor the experiences of those which continue globally as each day passes without trying to understand what is going on. science has not yet provided a reliable answer, and so ill keep looking.

Originally Posted by dyer
if were happy to accept what we saw were some weather balloon or swallow whatever other bs they use to debunk and demean the issue, that will never change.

Why are you not happy to accept what you saw was "some weather balloon"? Isn't that a more likely explanation?

well my friend, because im not a ****ing idiot. i know what i saw, i know what i saw was a craft under intelligent command, that is unlike anything you have ever seen, that had no aerodynamical features, that was surrounded in what can only be described as an electro magnetic field and could defy the laws of known physics, let alone understanding.

some argue its not possible to travel at the speed of light. how do we know that?

We don't know that, but it is the current understanding of physics.

there have been several experiments that prove its quite possible to travel faster than the speed of light. in one such experiment light was passed through a non absorbant vaccuum, and measured 300 times faster than the speed of light, in fact.. it appeared at the other side before they were even able to measure the light travelling through that medium (well now, thats a different story). another experiment conducted in italy, using light bouncing off mirrors, in their experiments at least, showed the speed of light or (c) as we know it, to be 5~7% faster. not to mention theories of how light could travel faster in respect to gravitational fields (or bending of space time) .. under similiar underlying principals we routinely slingshot satellites around our solar system by using the gravitational pull of a planet and utilising the escape velocity etc.

This is the thing that I really don't get with this subject? Why are people so happy to take as accurate what someone thinks they saw, when we know how easily it is for people to be mistaken about what they saw, yet so quick to dismiss actual supported scientific understanding that is tested far more than claims of what people think they saw.

maybe because our limited understanding of science is pathetic compared to what were actually facing right now?

Meh to be honest it is taken seriously it is just the answers are boring which people in general don't like.

thats your opinion and i respect that .. the answers arent boring, they simply have nothing todo with whats actually happening.

anyhows, dont take me for a loon, i just like to consider whats going on from an objective point of view. it really would be great if it was just a weather balloon, bit of erratic plasma, some secret military aircraft.. but yeah.. it isnt. until proven otherwise.

to tell ya the truth, its much easier talking to people whove had similiar experiences, because thats all it takes to open your mind, otherwise it just ends up in pointless, exhausting debates that really prove nothing at all.

maninasia

There is a way to get an idea of the veracity of sightings by comparing reports from different areas. Some reports have described the same phenomena.

One is small probe like objects moving in patterns, joining up, twisting around each other, then shooting off in opposite directions or lining up and moving in the same direction. These type of scenes haven't been shown in any movies or TV series like the X-files, yet regularly crop up if you check around. That's a very strange coincidence to me.

Another is the description of them changing colour, usually bright white, before moving away at almost instantaneous speed. That one is not well known but also crops up.

Also the point that many witnesses make about 90 degree instantaneous turns. I don't think regular people would have the presence of mind or awareness to put this sort of detail into their reports to fake them.

The same with the way they describe the object looks like it is stretching across the sky (this is most likely due to the extreme speeds of the objects, like a video your retina combines the rapidly moving image into one continuous streak). Also the electrical field effect around the object and the fact that is silent (and not woo woo as they usually show in the movies). Also that many times these apparently solid objects simply disappear without any obvious movement (you think this is difficult for an advanced civilisation, it's as easy as hitting a button I am sure http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20627645.000-radiationsoaking-metamaterial-puts-black-in-the-shade.html . What it indicates is that these objects could be all around us but normally we can't sense them.

The above descriptions are not the way I have seen these UFO objects represented in popular media.

You can google online for all these types of reports, it makes interesting reading.

It points to real unknown objects being seen.