UFO's - what do you believe?

gbee · 05-08-2010 2:27pm

dyer wrote: »

in an infinite number of different ways on other planets.. with a different 'primordial soup', and all the other physical forces!

Absolutely, BUT, we are looking for life like ours, and they'd have evolved along similar lines or close enough to be 'compatible'.

Vastly diverging lifeforms might never develop the technology ~ for instance the almost endless reign of the dinosaurs did not lead them to build technologies, even where abundance of food was available, one of the attributable aspect on human development, food first, science later.

Nathan Berburoc · 05-08-2010 2:44pm

With the greatest respect the mind boggles that people are still expecting some kind meaning full exchange of information , diplomacy or technology from the "UFO" phenomena.Based on the size , complexity and fertility of the universe ,I've no doubt that this galaxy is teeming with life however it simply non sensically that any ET culture , with potentially millennia of experience as a space faring civilisation would be anything like these ****ty,easily explainable atmospheric/psychological phenomena.1.You do not develop the technological sophistication to traverse huge volumes of space only to "crash" at your destination 2.There is absolutely nothing to be achieve through direct contact/landing/abducting which could not be achieved far more efficiently and accurately by long range observation,computer simulation or extrapolation models.3.The risk of contaminating ,or biasing the development of a non introduced culture , apart from being immature , hostile and arrogant would be disastrous for any experimental data.Experience on our own planet has shown time and again that interfering in even minute or cryptic way risks the development of "cargo cults" which eradicate indigenous beliefs and make eventual meaningful contact impossible.4.Organic life being the preferable mode for a post singularity culture is ridiculous,impractical and downright silly5.Illuminous , noisy , las vegas neon style UFOs flashing lights and sounds? So they need headlights now too? Surely these external lights have no practical use and merely draw attention? Im sure they are here , are probably indigenous to here.im sure they are completly invisible.Im sure they are huge and tiny.Im sure the are non biological and im sure they have absolutely nothing to learn.

maninasia · 05-08-2010 5:06pm

Nathan I see your reasoning. I agree that we could probably not detect them usually and that they are most likely non-biological.

But nothing is 100% perfect in life, why? Inbuilt errors from quantum mechanics..nothing can be predicted 100% in a chain of events, therefore errors will happen with even the most advanced technology and civilisations. This is a physical fact. Plus everything physical suffers from wear and tear, even advanced technologies. Everything we know about physics tells us that they will NOT be able to 100% prevent errors.

Sometimes the more advanced something is the more susceptible it is to catastrophic failure. To give you an example, most modern fighter aircraft depend on computers to constantly adjust the aerofoils to maintain lift. Without the computer control they quickly become unstable and will crash! Now imagine what it would be like to control very strong electromagnetic fields and use that for propulsion and an energy source.

So it is not entirely unfeasible that aliens with advanced aircraft could crash from time to time, very rarely perhaps but almost certain to occur. Did it happen on earth, maybe although they would probably cover it up better than a Roswell etc. It may also be possible that the times some 'genuine' UFOs are observed is when their camoflauge field is not operating for some reason, either by error or because they need to repair or do some operation which it would interfere with. The observations are simply a very rare subset of the UFO activity around us. Sound fairfetched?

It would be a piece of cake for an advanced civilisation to visually camoflauge their craft (both from our eyes and radar).

How do I know?
http://www.engadget.com/2010/03/19/3d-invisibility-cloak-fashioned-out-of-metamaterials/
http://www.newser.com/story/92406/blackest-black-is-the-new-black.html

So my pet theory is UFO sightings are in the inbuilt errors in the system, nothing more. The illuminesence is possibly a by-product of the field that drives their craft, but not usually visible except by error or when performing some operation that the surrounding camoflauge field needs to be powered off. This also goes with the usual pattern of sightings which is short.

Nathan Berburoc · 05-08-2010 5:22pm

Points taken man, and I have a firm personal opinon that there is an extra terrestrial passive presence on the planet from time to time.i just dont think its visible.i agree that any vessel,probe etc could be disguised.Im sure the earth is swarming with microscopic autonomous probes.Im sure a space craft no matter how intelligently AI controlled is suseptible to malfunction ,no matter how unlikely this would be given the severity of the mission and the level of sophistication involved to arrive at the destination, but more then that its the lack of logic of aliens actually visiting us in person rather then sending probes.why risk contact ? there cannot be anything a post scarcity society would need from us materially, there can be no technology they could covet and theres certainly a limit to amount of information you can gain from anal probing hillbillies

Slapstick accident prone Aliens , traveling in spaceships , visiting earth to me it smacks of anthropromorphic reasoning ,as usual people ( with the best intentions) are convinced theres some unique interesting exceptionaly quality to earth that makes it worth visiting "in the flesh".We cant hope to undertand their real purpose or agenda while we`r blinded by the lights of christmas tree UFOs and grey skinnyed little green menIn fact , id be quite dissapointed ,embarressed and terrified by the incompetance of a species which had both access to awe inspiring power but made childish mistakes.......... its hard enough being a member of a species like that let alone having to meet another one

theneed2rock · 05-08-2010 5:54pm

murrayp4 wrote: »

There's a very good documentary called I Know What I Saw on youtube

Interesting documentary. Alot more open minded bout the subject now

dyer · 05-08-2010 8:47pm

lol.. cheers nathan and maninasia.. had a good laugh at those posts. still, some of the most intelligent stuff ive read in this topic yet

just to say, i think whatever we perceive an advanced civilisation to be, is still no more than a projection of how we may idolise and glorify the advancement of our own species. you could ask, what is intelligence? take savants for example.. people who perform extraordinary feats of imagination, mathematical calculations that modern computers would struggle to cope with.. reciting pi to thousands of digits, memorizing every book they ever read, etc.. yet, for the most part, cannot tie their own shoes or deal with the simplest of daily routines? so what is intelligence? or is consciousness in fact, more valuable than we give it credit for? we cant possibly understand the rationale of another species, well never know that until direct contact is made. hell.. we dont understand any of the species around us here on earth! and most of the time, that also includes the ones who can actually understand us

are ET's so perfect and subservient that theyd never make a mistake or take the piss out of us? i know i would :P

murrayp4 · 06-08-2010 7:26am

Latest UK National Archive files released...

dyer · 06-08-2010 11:47am

thanks for the update on the MoD files!

from the rendlesham forest incident..

Testimony from Staff-Sergeant Jim Penniston
81st Security Police Squadron, RAE Bentwaters/RAF Woodbridge

"I got to within 10 feet of the craft and the clearing where it sat.
I estimated it to be about three meters tall and about three meters
wide at the base. No landing gear was apparent, but it seemed like she
was on fixed legs. I moved a little closer. I had already taken all
36 pictures on my roll of film. I walked around the craft, and
finally, I walked right up to the craft. I noticed the fabric of the
shell was more like a smooth, opaque, black glass. The bluish lights
went from black to gray to blue. I was pretty much confused at that
point. I kept trying to put this in some kind of frame of reference,
trying to find some logical explanation as to what this was and what
was going on. It was dead silent. No animals were even making noise
anymore.
"On the smooth exterior shell there was writing of some kind, but I
couldn’t quite distinguish it, so I moved up to it. It was three-inch
lettering, rather symbols that stretched for the length of two feet,
maybe a little more. I touched the symbols, and I could feel the
shapes as if they were inscribed or etched or engraved, like a diamond
cut on glass.
"At that point, I backed away from the craft, because the light was
starting to get brighter. Still, there was no sound. There was no
physical contact with any kind of life form, but there did seem to be
a life presence. It was mechanical, this ship, and it seemed to be
under intelligent control.

"I had no interest in anything like this before 1980. I always thought
that anybody who had seen strange lights or claimed to have seen UFOs
in the sky was crazy. I am a logical person. Even to this day, I am
still trying to rationalize from previous experience what that craft
was, what happened. But there it is: I mean, I am standing out in the
clearing in the middle of the forest and there is this craft, clearly
triangular in shape, looking like nothing I have ever seen or ever
heard about, and it doesn’t make any sound, and it’s got lights, and
I walk around it and take pictures of it and I even touch it, and
nobody, no country, is claiming it. I am 99 percent certain of one
thing and that is, this craft was definitely not of USAF origin or at
least not that I know of, and nobody I know has ever heard anything
about a craft like this then or now. And what other country might have
such a craft that has those capabilities of maneuvering in tight
conditions in the middle of a forest and all with no sound? That
disturbed me then, and it disturbs me now."

"The next thing I knew, I was standing about 20 feet away from the
craft with Burroughs, who I thought I had left back near the tree
line. The craft moved up off the ground, about three feet, still with
absolutely no sound. It started to move slowly, weaving back through
the trees at a very slow pace, maybe a half a foot per second. It took
about a couple of minutes for it to maneuver itself back to a
distance of about 100 to 150 feet, then it rose up just over the
trees, about 200 feet high. There was a momentary pause and then
literally with the blink of an eye it was gone. All with no sound.
That still boggles my mind.

Testimony from Colonel Charles Halt
Deputy Base Commander, RAF Bentwaters/RAF Woodbridge

Throughout the years, Halt has mulled over and over the possibilities,
considering every conceivable explanation for what they saw, and what
Penniston and Burroughs claim they saw. So far, Halt says, "nothing
works."

Sometimes, Halt appears distressed about not having figured it out by
now. "I gave some thought to the possibility that we had an
experimental craft of some type of hovercraft or stealth object in the
area," he says. "But keep in mind, this was 1980 and technology has
come a long way since then. Everyone I knew or had connections with,
people who work in certain places with lots of interesting things, all
said the same thing we don’t yet have the technology that can move
at those speeds and maneuver the ways those things did and do the
things those things did and all without sound. We had and have -
interesting craft alright. But nothing like this."

Now, nearly 17 years after the event, Halt still doesn’t know what he
and his men encountered. He remains as bewildered as the morning after
his fateful trip into Rendlesham Forest .
. Even with FOIA’s release of the Halt Document in 1983, and with
considerable media attention that followed, no satisfactory
explanations have been presented as far as Halt is concerned.
The USAF, meanwhile, has offered no comment on the matter.

gbee · 06-08-2010 4:00pm

Do we get to see the photos?

Nathan Berburoc · 06-08-2010 4:48pm

Facinating stuff , again though i think Rendlesham has the hallmarks of black projects.I dont doubt the lads saw what they saw , or that there was a very perculiar piece of hardware there.I also doubt that them seeing it was an accident.If "they" are able to disable nukes from orbit they could surely have disable a sony dictaphone.......what purpose would ET have with displaying hieroglyphs on the outside of an interstellar spacecraft ? For whos benefit? Theres some striking .I completly believe the testimonies of the officers , im sure they saw what they saw in the forrest on those night,but Id imagine they were guinea pigs or unexpected witnesses to a military prototype of some sort.In further reports given by the eye witnesses the craft seemed to be weeping molten metal ....surely this is some malfunction, you`d hardly send a probe to an alien planet which left potentially toxic by products behind.If it was the result of its propulsion system then its a system which ejects mass , and comparitive mass it left behind from the exertion of just floating mid air means it mustnt have travelled from very far away! Another comparitive case would be the mess of Varginha ( or the Brazilian Roswell) which again is another very "sci-fi hollywood alien" type scenario ,this time complete with EBEs , but reeks of military experiment.all great stuff though , very interesting releases of information....seems to be a steady leak with a)possiblity of fossil life on mars revelations b) Hershel Space Telescope detecting a plethora of S type planets and c) recent Churchill cover up info........building to something ?

murrayp4 · 06-08-2010 11:16pm

gbee wrote: »

Do we get to see the photos?

No, but there is a famous tape recording that one of the soldiers kept. It was allegedly a tape from his personal dictaphone which he spoke into as he was witnessing the craft. There is also a notepad that one of the soldiers was carrying which allegedly has a step by step real time documentation of the incident, including sketches of symbols on the side of the craft.

maninasia · 07-08-2010 3:39am

theneed2rock wrote: »

Interesting documentary. Alot more open minded bout the subject now

I really admire this documentary maker, he had to go through a lot of hoops to put this together. He even mentions how his father thinks he is crazy but only comes around when Gordon Cooper and Carter both admit they saw UFOs.
The documentary itself is also well put together showing the worldwide nature of the phenomenon.

maninasia · 07-08-2010 3:44am

Nathan Berburoc wrote: »

Facinating stuff , again though i think Rendlesham has the hallmarks of black projects.I dont doubt the lads saw what they saw , or that there was a very perculiar piece of hardware there.I also doubt that them seeing it was an accident.If "they" are able to disable nukes from orbit they could surely have disable a sony dictaphone.......what purpose would ET have with displaying hieroglyphs on the outside of an interstellar spacecraft ? For whos benefit? Theres some striking .I completly believe the testimonies of the officers , im sure they saw what they saw in the forrest on those night,but Id imagine they were guinea pigs or unexpected witnesses to a military prototype of some sort.In further reports given by the eye witnesses the craft seemed to be weeping molten metal ....surely this is some malfunction, you`d hardly send a probe to an alien planet which left potentially toxic by products behind.If it was the result of its propulsion system then its a system which ejects mass , and comparitive mass it left behind from the exertion of just floating mid air means it mustnt have travelled from very far away! Another comparitive case would be the mess of Varginha ( or the Brazilian Roswell) which again is another very "sci-fi hollywood alien" type scenario ,this time complete with EBEs , but reeks of military experiment.all great stuff though , very interesting releases of information....seems to be a steady leak with a)possiblity of fossil life on mars revelations b) Hershel Space Telescope detecting a plethora of S type planets and c) recent Churchill cover up info........building to something ?

I don't think there is any great 'plan' or drip-feeding of information, it's simply our understanding of the world is increasing due to technology and science advancement and consequently society is getting dragged along by it's bootlaces to look at these questions more openly.

There are a lot of misconceptions in general society, the idea that space is too vast to travel across, the idea that life is probably very very rare or unique to Earth (why?), the idea that people who report UFOs are all kooky and that saying you saw a UFO means you believe it is flown by little green men, that UFOs can all be explained by natural or man-made technologies...a lot of misconceptions.

Nathan Berburoc · 07-08-2010 12:48pm

Completely agree with you maninasia regarding the misconceptions of this planets uniquess in the local volume however regarding most ufo witnesses being "kooky" i would say that realistically you must agree that a persons intelligence,character even life experience and cultural expectations play a huge role in their perception and expectations when seeing something extradinary.for example,you or i seeing an aeroplane or helicopter would not be alarmed or embark on any flights of fancy about it being something spiritual ,remarkable or worse still ....personally flying there for us to see it.however someone from a tribe in papua new guinea seeing a helipcopter might be completely convinced its an emissary from god,the end of the world or god forbid some external manifestation of his own beliefs...completely agree with your opinons on the banality of FTL flight , im sure superluminal travel is not only possible but a fact of life for commerce,diplomacy and communication out there.as the man said absence of evidence is not evidence of absence,and most of the lads out there have had a few thousand years head start on this world to work out the physic..however UFO witness being human are to be treated with heavy sceptism.not for dishonesty but for being human. i think that presuming the natives of a non contacted unremarkable backwater planet in an exclusion zone would be very poor "kooky" witnesess to ET technology and would be very likely to add dollops of their own culturally aspirations,opinons (perversions) to what might be basic hardware....which i find it very unlikely they would even be permitted to see IMHO

maninasia · 08-08-2010 4:28pm

I always treat all reports (or try to) with scepticism first, then if something about their description rings a bell from other reports I will be more open-minded about it. I have often read reports of behaviour of UFOs that a person not familiar to the subject would not know correlates with other sightings. For instance most people would not be aware that some UFOs tend to accelerate instantaneously, make 90 degree turns, often hover or move at a 'lop-sided ' angle instead of horizontally and move in a 'falling-leaf' motion or jumping erratically to different parts of the sky. These are not the common representations of UFOs in the media! So it's curious some of the reports contain these details and to me this gives added weight to their testimony.

I also don't assume to know what an alien civilisation's intention may be. It may that some of them don't actually care if they are observed or not. I think we agree on the fact that it is more likely that there are 'aliens' in our vicinity than no aliens, it is good to discuss with somebody who comes from this viewpoint without having to explain to them endlessly why this should be so.

Then regarding people's reports of sightings, for instance I have no doubt that the vast majority of 'triangle' sightings are black ops aircraft from the US, but perhaps not all. Since they are described as slow moving dark objects at night and often sighted near military bases or in NATO countries it's not hard to guess where they are coming from.

Nathan, it would be easier to read your posts if you split them into paragraphs, cheers.

Ziycon · 08-08-2010 7:09pm

Most people have the idea of what a ufo is or is not due to hollywood which makes it very difficult to explain anything else to them especially when the media catches hold of an incident and the start to throw in references from sci-fi movies and mix it all about to make magical fairytale stories which people eat up!

dyer · 08-08-2010 8:36pm

say, theoretically speaking, these ufos were indeed man made.

we could then speculate..

some sort of anti-gravity propulsion system must have been built, if we roll back to the 19th century, is that really plausable? if such capable technology existed id imagine its more likely it would have been used to knock the $h1t out of each other than spend so much time covering it up, not to mention the resources it would take to actually do that.

if they had solved these massive problems of physics way back when, nevermind today, which i highly doubt.. and 'problems' is a vast understatement here.. were talking about bridging the gap between classical and quantum physics. its easy to say it was probably a prototype military craft without understanding the fundamentals of whats actually being achieved here. not to mention that physically, theres no way the human body could withstand the inertia and forces under which these craft operate.

it still begs the question, why hasnt science solved this problem yet, if it has been solved already by some rogue government experiment. its not like theres any shortage of physicists who work in this field, and with all of our so called modern technology at their fingertips. it doesnt add up, not one bit. theres not one shred of evidence to support any scientific experiment put forward to this day that shows anti-gravity is possible. not one! if they reverse engineered the technology however, thats a different story.. and that would of course, prove the existence of extraterrestrials.

either way, if they were man made, it doesnt explain the existence of ufo's in human history dating back hundreds of years. take the nuremberg incident for example, which ocurred in 1561 : http://www.ufoevidence.org/cases/case486.htm

Nathan Berburoc · 09-08-2010 10:03am

Maninasia can you not see the paradox between saying on one half that you find some points and witnesses compelling because they are at odds with media representations , yet these very statements are actually from the media ? (unless you have some first hand source) the common narrative of techology ,the anecdotes of movement /behaviour /experience are often only authentic because of the context they are presented in.Either that or ET seem to have a special inexplicable facination with white/hispanic , working class americans combined with a shyness for photography and a fetish for an**l probing which would make a proctologist blush.I completely agree with you regarding the triangles , we had some over ireland/belgium recently ,and they seem to be some kind of US military phenomena..................................................................Again its brilliant and refreshing having discourse with lads such as yourself and Dyer who are showing both a healthy amount of skeptism yet enough enthusiam to keep a jaded young cynic like myself engaged I dont like beliefs, I like ideas and its good to see idealists here rather then believers.If this phenomena is true it doesnt require belief ..............................................An excellent point Dyer , theres a huge paradox between the POV of saying that the US military has access to antigravity ,overunity and cold fusion yet still resorts to fighting lenghty expensive wars for fossil fuel and insists on sending men in to orbit strapped to giant chemical b*mbs,contradictions run even beyond the financial.......surely global conflict ,religious dogma and even basic human manners could all be brought to heed with just a sniff of the possibilty that there is a greater game going on which dwarfs all of our differences.Ive no answer for it , .........................................................However as examples of the possibilities I could point to the Lockheed SR-71 ;Blackbird which was developed in the `50s and in service from the mid 60s whilst major airlines in the world were still using propellor planes.I could point to the fact that we have men walking on the moon and are close to technological singularity whilst there are still uncontacted stone age tribes in the Sentinel Islands off India......theres no universal standard on earth for access to technology.theres no trickle down theory or common benefactor , so I guess yeah ,there could be knowlege of alien tech held by goverments for centuries without the common man seein any benefits.Constant War is its own benefit and has its own rewards............................................................Historical examples are interresting but certainly not beyond the realms of hoaxing , misinformation and misidentification.There are numerous instances of sightings by Pre-Industrial societies, and whilst many of these sightings incorporated articulated craft in the context of religiousThe fact that we seem to overlook whether through some misplaced nostalgia or sentimentality about the past is ..........Humans Lie.They abbridge ,embelish, and do this all the more so at a time in history where therewas no history (ie no verifyable , comparible , reliable system of research) they feckin well made stuff up on the spot.They lied to make themselves interesting , to attach favourability and the authority of the church to their ideologies.And they were often bored.The fact that a heliocentric mammalian species saw spacecraft in the skies is unremarkable and inevitable.The fact that they saw the same things back then as we do now says less about the validity of the sightings as ET then it does about the fact that we share a common biological heritage with our ancestors and so are plagued by the same self delusions...................................................................That said though through the multitude of lies im sure there is room for some actual sightings.And as you rightly said an example of this would be Nuremberg 1561 instances.To me it sounds very like what modern science would term Von Neuman Probes ie automous self relicating AI devices.They are an efficient elegant and practical solution to exploration and they would look a hell of a lot like our friends in Nuremberg in both behaviour and ergonomics.......................................................................Beyond all the Hows and Whens though , is the most important question of Why.Why would they come , Why are they interested in homo sapiens..........Why are they not showing themselves in an undeniable way instead of farting about on shaky home movies and crop circle geometry ? Im trying to extroplate the motive of something which by its very definition ( if true) is completely out of human context.The only presumtions I can make are.........................................................a) that they are limited by the laws of physics, or at least by the fringes of physics as we know it.........................................................b) they have some motivation beyond the casual curiosity because the energy expenditure .......................................................................c) if you are to believe that ufos crash (which i dont ) then there is some mortal / material risk involved in ET exploration........................................................................d ) there reason for being on an unremarkable planet could be sociological/idealogical/religeous ( its hardly for wealth , the plunder of physical resources is unlikely as access to overunity devices/manufacture of FTL travel implies they are a postscarcity society..its hardly for any distinct geological research as our planet is demonstrably unremarkable)..............................................................your thoughts lads ?

Nathan Berburoc · 09-08-2010 10:08am

BTW apolgies for the chunk of text ....ive tried adding paragraph spaces but for some reason they keep coming up like this.....

maccored · 09-08-2010 12:18pm

Nathan Berburoc wrote: »

Maninasia can you not see the paradox between saying on one half that you find some points and witnesses compelling because they are at odds with media representations , yet these very statements are actually from the media ? (unless you have some first hand source) the common narrative of techology ,the anecdotes of movement /behaviour /experience are often only authentic because of the context they are presented in.Either that or ET seem to have a special inexplicable facination with white/hispanic , working class americans combined with a shyness for photography and a fetish for an**l probing which would make a proctologist blush.I completely agree with you regarding the triangles , we had some over ireland/belgium recently ,and they seem to be some kind of US military phenomena
..................................................................
Again its brilliant and refreshing having discourse with lads such as yourself and Dyer who are showing both a healthy amount of skeptism yet enough enthusiam to keep a jaded young cynic like myself engaged I dont like beliefs, I like ideas and its good to see idealists here rather then believers.If this phenomena is true it doesnt require belief
..............................................
An excellent point Dyer , theres a huge paradox between the POV of saying that the US military has access to antigravity ,overunity and cold fusion yet still resorts to fighting lenghty expensive wars for fossil fuel and insists on sending men in to orbit strapped to giant chemical b*mbs,contradictions run even beyond the financial.......surely global conflict ,religious dogma and even basic human manners could all be brought to heed with just a sniff of the possibilty that there is a greater game going on which dwarfs all of our differences.Ive no answer for it ,
.........................................................
However as examples of the possibilities I could point to the Lockheed SR-71 ;Blackbird which was developed in the `50s and in service from the mid 60s whilst major airlines in the world were still using propellor planes.I could point to the fact that we have men walking on the moon and are close to technological singularity whilst there are still uncontacted stone age tribes in the Sentinel Islands off India......theres no universal standard on earth for access to technology.theres no trickle down theory or common benefactor , so I guess yeah ,there could be knowlege of alien tech held by goverments for centuries without the common man seein any benefits.Constant War is its own benefit and has its own rewards
............................................................
Historical examples are interresting but certainly not beyond the realms of hoaxing , misinformation and misidentification.There are numerous instances of sightings by Pre-Industrial societies, and whilst many of these sightings incorporated articulated craft in the context of religiousThe fact that we seem to overlook whether through some misplaced nostalgia or sentimentality about the past is .......... Humans Lie. They abbridge ,embelish, and do this all the more so at a time in history where therewas no history (ie no verifyable , comparible , reliable system of research) they feckin well made stuff up on the spot.They lied to make themselves interesting , to attach favourability and the authority of the church to their ideologies.And they were often bored.The fact that a heliocentric mammalian species saw spacecraft in the skies is unremarkable and inevitable.The fact that they saw the same things back then as we do now says less about the validity of the sightings as ET then it does about the fact that we share a common biological heritage with our ancestors and so are plagued by the same self delusions
...................................................................
That said though through the multitude of lies im sure there is room for some actual sightings.And as you rightly said an example of this would be Nuremberg 1561 instances.To me it sounds very like what modern science would term Von Neuman Probes ie automous self relicating AI devices.They are an efficient elegant and practical solution to exploration and they would look a hell of a lot like our friends in Nuremberg in both behaviour and ergonomics
.......................................................................
Beyond all the Hows and Whens though , is the most important question of Why.Why would they come , Why are they interested in homo sapiens ..........
Why are they not showing themselves in an undeniable way instead of farting about on shaky home movies and crop circle geometry ? Im trying to extroplate the motive of something which by its very definition ( if true) is completely out of human context.The only presumtions I can make are .........................................................
a) that they are limited by the laws of physics, or at least by the fringes of physics as we know it
.........................................................
b) they have some motivation beyond the casual curiosity because the energy expenditure
.......................................................................
c) if you are to believe that ufos crash (which i dont ) then there is some mortal / material risk involved in ET exploration
........................................................................
d ) there reason for being on an unremarkable planet could be sociological/idealogical/religeous ( its hardly for wealth , the plunder of physical resources is unlikely as access to overunity devices/manufacture of FTL travel implies they are a postscarcity society..its hardly for any distinct geological research as our planet is demonstrably unremarkable)
..............................................................your thoughts lads ?

the problem was too many strings of dots and no spacing

maninasia · 09-08-2010 1:12pm

Regarding media representation of UFOs, I prefer to read the reports in various places online like MUFON and the comments pages of some articles. I know some of these reports are spurious, many are misunderstandings/misperceptions of everyday events but some definitely have the ring of truth, along with the fact that they sometimes have some correlating features.
For instance, and I've stated it earlier, there is a type of sighting where 'probes' tend to circle around each and come in from opposite angles, join up, disappear or move off together. Not that it just not how the popular media have ever represented UFOs. So how come they have these similar sightings? Well it could be coincidence sure but I've a feeling they are describing the same phenomena.

Here's an account from a guy who literally wrote the book on UFOs, NASA scientist Dr. Paul Hill.

'Accordingly, expecting conformance to the pattern, at 5 minutes to 8p.m., just at twilight, a companion and I arrived at the Hampton Roads waterfront, parked, and started to watch the skies for UFOs. At 8.00, I said to my companion, "I'd give a thousand dollars for a good look at a UFO." No sooner were the words spoken than here they came, up over the southern horizon, slightly east of a collision course with the observers. We kept an eye on them as they approached, getting out of the car to do so. They came in side by side at about 500 mph, at what was learned later by triangulation to be 15,000 to 18,000 feet altitude. From all angles they looked like amber traffic lights a couple of blocks away, which would make them spheres about 13 to 20 feet in diameter.

They slowed into a left turn to pass directly over our heads toward the west. They practically came to a stop as they approached. It was then that they started their strange jitter, a surprising phenomenon. First one leaped a little way ahead of the other as fast or faster than the eye could follow - you couldn't be sure. Then the other seemed to jump ahead. They kept up these odd mincing steps for a few seconds as they passed overhead, while we craned our necks. Then, after passing zenith, they made an astounding maneuver. Maintaining their spacing of about 200 feet, they revolved in a horizontal circle, about a common center, at a rate of at least once per second. After a few revolutions, and without a pause, they switched their revolutions into a vertical plane, keeping up the same amazing rate. Awe-stricken, I reached my hand out to the car for support saying, "Nothing can do that. Those are really saucers."
That was halfway into a 3-minute sighting. Up to that point I had just been a fascinated spectator. Now they had convinced me. At that moment, I realized that here were visitors from another world. There is a lot of truth in the old saying, "It's different when it happens to you." It was within my line of business to know that no Earthcraft could remotely approach those maneuvers. Within seconds of the circling maneuver, an identical sphere came in from the Atlantic Ocean on an ascending course over Lower Chesapeake Bay and joined the others, falling in below. For a few seconds they seemed to float along, then began accelerating slowly toward the south as a fourth amber sphere came in from the James River to build the group up to a formation of four as they headed south. I thought, "A-ha, the circling maneuver was a rendezvous signal."

Nathan Berburoc · 09-08-2010 1:50pm

Ive seen videos of some impressive high G maneouvering ,and its safe to say that human pilots would have been turned to mush inside,without some kind of Sci-Fi like inertial dampeners, or unless they were suspended in some kind of liquid of course its just as likely the UFOs are unmanned or manufacture their crew as needs be.Its an interesting point that if they are ET craft and are behaving in a similar pattern then at least some of their motives can be conjectured.Maybe a survey , whatever it is , it must be something which cant be done from orbit or from LR telescope ,so maybe its for biological specimens ?Id been said that if they use Gravity amplifiers then they would move in the falling leaf type motion you previously mentioned as the gravity field is not uniform, this would also negate any negative G force from the turning.Still think they should be invisible , if all the other criterior were met. I keep an open mind anyway man ,Whats your opinon on their motives?

maninasia · 10-08-2010 5:47am

I think the craft, if indeed they are that, are robotically controlled in many cases, artificially intelligent.
As to why they can be observed sometimes, maybe some of them don't care, maybe they are in error or during certain manuevres/functions they become visible as a by-product.

As for their intentions, that's very difficult to answer. We can surmise from our own ideas that they are surveying. They could also have a protective function, they could also be time travellers from the future. They could even be sight-seeing. It seems they don't interfere with human development and the ecosystem at any large scale, at least in recent history. We could be a giant experiment, who knows? It's likely there are multiple civlisations and intelligences out there, therefore multiple intentions are likely. I don't really buy into the abduction phenomena but I wouldn't 100% write it all off either. Some of these entities may be living things and not guided by civilisation...just existing..the forces of evolution could mean that replicating probes change their original program and exist just to exist and replicate, just like us!

I saw that you wrote that the Earth has nothing special but every place probably has something special or unique, I'm sure Earth has some rare qualities that some alien civilisation might find interesting. It certainly sticks out like a sore thumb in this solar system. Perhaps in it's plate tectonics, life development etc. Sometimes you have to get 'down and dirty' to examine the details and get real samples, not just remote sensing.

gbee · 10-08-2010 9:47am

Ziycon wrote: »

Most people have the idea of what a ufo is or is not due to hollywood !

Yes, this is a major point. As in religion as well, people who are susceptible will report Aliens and visits from God in the language that they assume to be right and in fact they will really see the apparitions thus described.

Don't forget that people claimed to have seen Leprechauns too.

dyer · 10-08-2010 11:06am

as for their motives, its impossible to say, there may very well be many species who are involved for many different reasons, some of which maninasia already touched on. perhaps they scour the galaxy collecting dna and replicating and cloning it on 'nearby' planets for food, slavery, study, who knows.. maybe our planet or solar system is on the brink of collapse and theyre salvaging whatever they can before that happens? perhaps the human species really is part of a grand genetic experiment?

theres no end to speculation, not sure that really solves anything, but it is mind blowing to think about. i often wonder where all this is going.. and if the world is even ready to accept it?

Nathan Berburoc · 10-08-2010 12:11pm

im sure the world would adapt quickly enough , if you consider the vast amount of people seem happy accepting a magic carpenter or a elephant headed prince as being plausible creators then ETs would be practically sensible

There is of course the risk of a False Flag being confronted with the realities of the universe has been an increasingly humble exercise for the human race in the last few hundred years.we went from having no history to being dwarfed by it , from being the center of our universe to not even being the center of our solar system.im sure it wouldnt make many people blink (remember those lads in the sentinel islands)Id be inclined to think though that we havent been Introduced for a very good reason.A control experiment or a captive breeding program ,who knows? Maybe they are doing us a favour by keeping us out of the game.What scares me is the silence out there , and the irresponsible fad of amatuers sending Greeting messages out in to space.If the galaxy is remaining silent then it strikes me they know something we dont , and our messages for greeting could be the proverbial Turkey voting for Christmas

dyer · 10-08-2010 12:30pm

hahaha, touché

i guess it would all depend on how they revealed themselves, if they were a benevolent species and whether or not wed shoot first and ask questions later! id imagine it might be more of a rabbit in the headlights syndrome myself.

i would like to research abductions a bit more, and these stories people have about their communications with ET's. alot of them could probably do with being institutionalised, but hell, what do i know. have you seen that movie the 4th kind? what did you make of it?

animal mutilation in the UK

Farmers near Shrewsbury claim to have witnessed sheep being “lasered” by unidentified light from UFOs.

They have linked the unexplained incidents, where sheep’s brains and eyes were removed, to the mysterious orange lights in the sky.

They have found sheep with “neat holes” while their brains and other internal organs were removed. Other animals have lost eyes or had their flesh “carefully stripped away”, usually on the left side.

Phil Hoyle, 53, who has spent almost a decade investigating how the livestock have died, said the UFOs were found to have roamed a 50-mile "corridor" between Shrewsbury and Powys.

Mr Hoyle and 15 members of the Animal Pathology Field Unit, claimed they witnessed UFOs at work last month while working during the night at a Welsh hill farm near Radnor Forest.

“The technology involved in these attacks is frightening,” he told The Sun.

“These lights and spheres are clearly not ours.

“They are built by technology and intelligence that's not from here.”

He added: “For a short while it looked more like a Star Wars battle.”

Next day he interviewed farmers and "all but one had some type of unusual disappearance of animals or deaths with strange injuries", he told the paper.

http://www.realufos.net/2010/04/sheep-mutilations-continue.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/ufo/7555431/Unexplained-sheep-attacks-caused-by-aliens-in-UFOs-farmers-claim.html

i came across a website before dedicated to farmers posting info about these cases but i cant find it right now.. will post later if i do.

Ziycon · 10-08-2010 1:48pm

Just another point with regard to the 'craft' people witness, there is no real evidence to suggest that they are piloted by beings whether terrestrial or not. If you look at how technology has progressed over the passed 5 years you'll see a major switch to UAVs in police activities as well as military and even civilian.

So I don't think it would be far wrong to say that these 'craft' would most likely be more advanced UAV technology.

Nathan Berburoc · 10-08-2010 1:49pm

Cattle Mutilation is an interesting phenomena , id love to see more info on it and the links make for gruesome reading.Im confused by the connections between UFOs/Black helicopters over the farmsto be honest i think the most surprising part of is isnt the mutiliations themselves but the fact that people attribute them to aliens.....michevious humans operating in rural areas away from prying eyes are more then capable of causing the types of mutilation required ( studies have shown that on large ranches in the US where the cadavers may not be found for more then a day alarge amount of the mutilation observed is easily explained by dehyration causing tissue shrinkage and insects.The use of keyhole surgery followed by extraction of organs has less to do with some mysterious lazers requiring weapons then it does hoaxers using a vacuum cleaner type device.........which you would need a small hole for in order to keep pressureEven at the current primitive level of mammalian cloning and stem cell research we are able to grow whole organs so i wonder how a space faring society still needs to cut bits out of animals.Another give away to me is the fact that any cadavers are left at all ? surely if you were harvesting/sampling a species its rather inelegant to just dump the body in a field.....and far more likely a practicality of humans hoaxers not being able to haul off the heavy dead weight.i`l keep an open mind though , as they say , no so open my brains fall out like the poor cows :)Safe to say again though , if they are really doing it their reasons are totally alien also , id even give more credibility to human abduction then cattle

gbee · 10-08-2010 2:02pm

dyer wrote: »

say, theoretically speaking, these ufos were indeed man made. we could then speculate..

Add in one of my favourites, we advanced to space travel previously [millions of years ago] and then were wiped out, either by natural catastrophe or nuclear war. The Dinosaurs then took over the Earth and we only evolved again after they suffered a global extinction event.

All these millions of years our probes and surveillance equipment has been looking for us to download their logs and receive new inputs.

But we don't answer them.

UFO's - what do you believe?

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