IRISH EVOLUTION QUALIFIERS 2010

Orim

I would agree with Azzas suggestion of doing our to compensate anyone that was unaware of the venue change. unfortunately I don't think it will be possible and even more unfortunate we probably will not get those people back.

Azza

I remember a few years back with the Irish WCG (World Cyber Games) qualifiers held in the Digital Hub in Dublin they had qualifiers for multipal tournaments with the winners of each qualifier winning a trip to the WCG in China.

Turnout as far as I recall was universaly low for nearly every quailifer. I think part of the reason why this was, its that people don't take gaming seriously enough to think travelling that far to play a tournament they had little chance of doing well in was a worthwhile prize. For many it would require time off work and loss of earnings as well. Where as a cash prise or a spot prize is prize directly into their hands even if its less than the equivelent price of a trip to a tournament in another country.

Not suggesting that was the sole reason but possible a significant part of it.

Azza

Yeah Orim your probably right. I'm hoping against hope they had caller ID on their phones and may be able to contact them to pass on a message.

If we could contact them I'd offer them a refund on travelling expenses occured plus free entry to the next inferno tournament and possible cover the cost of travel expenses to it. However this is not my decision to make, something like that needs community approval or a committee decision.

Sabre0001

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Personally I can't see why next weekend can't be called Inferno 10, run as inferno 10, only the first prize is the evo trip.

No changes to cost, nothing like that.

There was no second prize for the EVO tourney. So switching would be non-existent. Talking with the Limerick lads at the casual yesterday we also came up with more questions than answers - Is accomodation being covered, tournament entry fee?

Yes, would be great to go to EVO and experience it, etc. But many will want to have a chance of winning - in lieu of that, they'll want to go for a good time (made harder when travelling on their own). Otherwise, instead of earning ~€300 at Inferno, they cost themselves about that amount plus have to book stuff (because, again we are unsure if this is being done).

If there is an actual prize pot (top 3) at Inferno, that reduces the amount that covers flights (and again, if the entry fee is regular Inferno - in theory this should also reduce the prize...Ironically it does not as the Inferno entry suits the more price concious and therefore would get a higher attendance).


@Azza - it was the WCG qualifier I mentioned earlier that you are thinking of - trip to Cologne (plus accomodation). But yes, turnouts were low bar Halo. China WCG was an online qualifier followed by an offline final. And yes, you're reasoning behind low uptake is probably spot on.....and again, because no other prizes were mentioned, there was a feeling of "we can't win, we won't go". The OTHER aspects of gaming events need to be highlighted / more needs to be there to attract people.


Finally, Inferno needs to happen - Super IS out...and yet, there has been no ranking event as yet.

Doctor DooM

Azza wrote: »

Yeah Orim your probably right. I'm hoping against hope they had caller ID on their phones and may be able to contact them to pass on a message.

If we could contact them I'd offer them a refund on travelling expenses occured plus free entry to the next inferno tournament and possible cover the cost of travel expenses to it. However this is not my decision to make, something like that needs community approval or a committee decision.

I agree completely fwiw.

Gamesnash.ie: Pat

Azza wrote: »

Yeah Orim your probably right. I'm hoping against hope they had caller ID on their phones and may be able to contact them to pass on a message.

If we could contact them I'd offer them a refund on travelling expenses occured plus free entry to the next inferno tournament and possible cover the cost of travel expenses to it. However this is not my decision to make, something like that needs community approval or a committee decision.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but the nunber came in private. (Already had a check for the number when I saw the original suggestion) I didn't take the call personally so can't offer any insight. I could only assume though that the lads involved post here or are regulars on the scene. Keep an eye out for any posts referencing going to Dunboyne in vain !

Doctor DooM

Sabre0001 wrote: »

There was no second prize for the EVO tourney. So switching would be non-existent. Talking with the Limerick lads at the casual yesterday we also came up with more questions than answers - Is accomodation being covered, tournament entry fee?

Inferno has a well established 1st/ 2nd/ 3rd prize. My idea was simply that if the person who comes first wants to go to evo, the first prize goes to the ticket, if he can't, the second, or so on.

It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

Sabre0001 wrote: »

Yes, would be great to go to EVO and experience it, etc. But many will want to have a chance of winning - in lieu of that, they'll want to go for a good time (made harder when travelling on their own). Otherwise, instead of earning ~€300 at Inferno, they cost themselves about that amount plus have to book stuff (because, again we are unsure if this is being done).

It's just the ticket.

Speaking as someone who's gone to one of these international tournaments, you'd be spending most of the time going "holy ****" watching world class players fighting.

Sabre0001 wrote: »

If there is an actual prize pot (top 3) at Inferno, that reduces the amount that covers flights (and again, if the entry fee is regular Inferno - in theory this should also reduce the prize...Ironically it does not as the Inferno entry suits the more price concious and therefore would get a higher attendance).

As pointed out earlier by me in the thread, some of the community members here are covering any losses made. The idea was no effective changes to Inferno. EXCEPT one of winners is our Evo qualifier. It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that. People come along at the same time, pay the same amount, get the same number of games, get the same prize if they want it.

Of course if people have better ideas, I'd love to hear it.

Sabre0001 wrote: »

@Azza - it was the WCG qualifier I mentioned earlier that you are thinking of - trip to Cologne (plus accomodation). But yes, turnouts were low bar Halo. China WCG was an online qualifier followed by an offline final. And yes, you're reasoning behind low uptake is probably spot on.....and again, because no other prizes were mentioned, there was a feeling of "we can't win, we won't go". The OTHER aspects of gaming events need to be highlighted / more needs to be there to attract people.

What are your ideas on how to do this?

Sabre0001 wrote: »

Finally, Inferno needs to happen - Super IS out...and yet, there has been no ranking event as yet.

The idea and it was just an idea is that inferno does happen. It's just also used to figure out our evo qualifier. Two birds, one stone.

animaX

Doctor DooM wrote: »

The idea and it was just an idea is that inferno does happen. It's just also used to figure out our evo qualifier. Two birds, one stone.

This.

Why not come to inferno 10 (which i believe should still be on this coming weekend) like you normally would and if you do win well done. If you don't want the evo spot, pass it on to next best placed person who is willing to go. Its a shame that anyone would be put off by the possibility of not taking home some prize-money. Yes it will cost money to travel and not take anything home but since when are hobbies free?!

Of course that's easy for me to say because i live in dublin and it costs me nothing but a dublin bus fare to get to xgc but if you want free competitive play then you can just stay at home and play online. The whole reason for these infernos is to experience competitive offline play, not to break even or make money.

This is just my view, not directed at anyone but just based on my experiences from yesterday.

I really think inferno 10 should be this weekend. Only difference is that the prize is slightly different. And yes, the second best placed person might end up with a better prize than the winner but thats the winners choice. At least you'll be seeded for the next inferno ;-)

Sabre0001

Doctor DooM wrote: »

The idea and it was just an idea is that inferno does happen. It's just also used to figure out our evo qualifier. Two birds, one stone.

Sorry, there are a lot of things to be cleared up - more aware after this post. Agree with Inferno running as normal - but don't want some people (who are remaining unnamed; perhaps their preference ) to end up lamped with a massive bill... Thanks DooM for answering the questions set out (accomodation, entry, etc). Unfortunately, clarifying that from the outset may have put people off....but whatcha gonna do

As for getting people in, it's a tough one....and one I frequently ponder. As I said, that podcast mentioned spot prizes and if you look at international ones, there is stuff for non-competitors / the 'Dan tier' players. With links in Capcom (as the press releases said that Capcom were in partnership), it should be possible to get gimicky stuff.

Trying to change people's attitude is an uphill battle - it would make sense for people to compete. Afterall, look at how popular games with 'ranks' and online leaderboards are.....but people are less willing to prove themselves when it counts (something I hope will change considering my interest in the concept overall).

Who knows, if people aren't interested in EVO, I could be going with a 40th-50th finish


@Animax - I don't think anyone is looking for free competitive play...but it's not that long ago since people were asking Azza to drop the entry fee from €15. This tournament weighed in at €20 and that's before the extras (for us 'country' people )...

Ken B

Not sure if this is the place to post this but:

I genuinely believe that more frequent ranbats will result in diminishing returns. Eg: What makes the World Cup so special is that it is held every 4 years(would we remember every final if it was a yearly event, forinstance). I feel that a ranbat every 6 weeks would give it a sense of occasion and be an antidote to apathy. One every four weeks would make missing one seem a lot less important.


You can't go to the well too often folks....

Dreddybajs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Inferno has a well established 1st/ 2nd/ 3rd prize. My idea was simply that if the person who comes first wants to go to evo, the first prize goes to the ticket, if he can't, the second, or so on.

It doesn't need to be any more complicated than that.

That suggestion is inherently a lot more complicated than that though as it completely changes the entry fee structure for Inferno (unless I'm missing something) and the dynamic of the prize allocation.

I completely agree with Cobelcog's post, and I can't believe this situation is becoming even more of a circus than it already was.

Azza

When Chunkis suggested the idea of having Inferno decide the winner he said we could just use the current format and pricing structure of Inferno, no need to change anything but the prize allocation.

Its not a complicated change (neither would it be to change the entry fee as well) its just not necessarily going to be a popular change. As I said before I'm not in favour of this myself. I personally would prefer a regular Inferno tournament.

As Cobels has said the current prize of Inferno is worth more to him (and some others) than a trip to Evo, even though Evo is a bigger prize. Inferno's current prize is a prize to hand and not one that will occur additionally expenses on the winner. The fact that there would be no prizes for 2nd and 3rd further puts people off.

However some may prefer the EVO prize so I see no issue at all with people discussing alturnatives to it. If the community is not interested then fine but there is no harm in discussing it, otherwise how are we to know what people want.

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

That suggestion is inherently a lot more complicated than that though as it completely changes the entry fee structure for Inferno (unless I'm missing something) and the dynamic of the prize allocation.

I completely agree with Cobelcog's post, and I can't believe this situation is becoming even more of a circus than it already was.

Ok then, how about you supply a better suggestion, rather than insult the ones on the table?

How do we make this less of a circus, dreddy?

D4RK ONION

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Personally I can't see why next weekend can't be called Inferno 10, run as inferno 10, only the first prize is the evo trip.

No changes to cost, nothing like that.

This seemed like the obvious thing to me. I was going to back myself up, but AnimaX has done a fine job above so I'm just going to cop out and say "what he said".

Robbknoll

Azza wrote: »

As Cobels has said the current prize of Inferno is worth more to him (and some others) than a trip to Evo, even though Evo is a bigger prize. Inferno's current prize is a prize to hand and not one that will occur additionally expenses on the winner. The fact that there would be no prizes for 2nd and 3rd further puts people off.

However some may prefer the EVO prize so I see no issue at all with people discussing alturnatives to it. If the community is not interested then fine but there is no harm in discussing it, otherwise how are we to know what people want.

Am i the only one who kinda raised an eyebrow at this. Basically saying peeps like cobelcog an others arent interested in the evo prize as it'll cost more money in the long run (fair enough). How often does a paid flight to vegas come along and a chance to play against the best in the world?... Further more where does the money from the majority of inferno contendents who know they have no chance of winning go? To the winners pocket... But you dont here them complaining they still go to learn and have the craic. If money is what interests these players why not go get a job?

Also i think its really sad that people are taking the extra costs of this evo venture on the chin. After all they did try to do something special for the people of the community and this is how they get repaid. This is why i think it'd be nice if the prize was the trip for inferno. If the winner doesnt want it pass it to the next person that would appreciate it. Me Hell just give it to me anyway ill tell ye want the casinos evolution was like

Just my little observation guys, hope this turns out well for everyone

Sisko

Yeah as a player whos not gonna be winning any of these events but throws money to these tourneys anyway for the spirit of the event itself and community etc...

its interesting seeing the mindset of those who do have a chance of winning events who are all of a sudden not willing to pay to enter a tourney if the winnings are not what they want.

Sigh, anyway all this mess would have been avoided if this event was discussed in detail on the forums (organiser and participants, not just participants )

As well as avoiding screwing over gamenash it'd have come to light much sooner that a number of our top players actually only want money and have no interest in Evo.

Dreddybajs

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Ok then, how about you supply a better suggestion, rather than insult the ones on the table?

How do we make this less of a circus, dreddy?

I don't think it's necessary to put a suggestion forward to support an idea I'm not at all sure I'm in agreement of. I just don't want that idea spreading to screw up Inferno which I am currently completely happy with

EmSixTeen

I don't have much right to be commenting here, but bloody hell, is this for seriousness? I'd be jumping at the fecking opportunity.

Azza

Robbknoll wrote:

Am i the only one who kinda raised an eyebrow at this. Basically saying peeps like cobelcog an others arent interested in the evo prize as it'll cost more money in the long run (fair enough). How often does a paid flight to vegas come along and a chance to play against the best in the world?... Further more where does the money from the majority of inferno contendents who know they have no chance of winning go? To the winners pocket... But you dont here them complaining they still go to learn and have the craic. If money is what interests these players why not go get a job?

Right I'm going clarify a few points.
Cobelcog can't go even if he won. There is several other people in the same position as he is. They won't be around at the time or can't go for whatever reason.

As for the trip to Vegas, yes it would be nice to go. But think of the commitment required to go. It entails 2 12+ hour flights, financing your own accomodation which will cost hundreds of euros, taking time off work (which may not be possible for some), loss or earnings (if for example say I won and went, I'd be down at least in excess of €500 due to loss of earnings and paying for accomodation).

Asking people to get a job if money is a concern is abit irratating. In case you haven't noticed there is a recession on and its not quite so simply to get a job on the drop of a hat to finance trips to Las Vegas to play in a video game competition.

Robbknoll wrote:

Also i think its really sad that people are taking the extra costs of this evo venture on the chin. After all they did try to do something special for the people of the community and this is how they get repaid. This is why i think it'd be nice if the prize was the trip for inferno. If the winner doesnt want it pass it to the next person that would appreciate it. Me Hell just give it to me anyway ill tell ye want the casinos evolution was like

The sole organiser of this event brough the misfortune on himself due to lack of time and planing on his part. The community is merely trying to pick up the pieces as best it can so its reputation is not damaged by assocation.

Sisko wrote:

Yeah as a player whos not gonna be winning any of these events but throws money to these tourneys anyway for the spirit of the event itself and community etc...

its interesting seeing the mindset of those who do have a chance of winning events who are all of a sudden not willing to pay to enter a tourney if the winnings are not what they want.

Sigh, anyway all this mess would have been avoided if this event was discussed in detail on the forums (organiser and participants, not just participants )

As well as avoiding screwing over gamenash it'd have come to light much sooner that a number of our top players actually only want money and have no interest in Evo.

The people who enter inferno tournaments and don't have a realistic chance are indeed contributing money to the community and its greatly appreciated, but the size of there contribution over the year if they attended ever Inferno event that year would be considerable less than the expense of going to EVO. Its not a fair comparison.

The prize was not the issue, the date was. Many people had exams on or where otherwise busy. Inferno was put back for that very reason.

Which top players only want money? Some have a preference for money over what could be a costly trip to Evo. Some simply can't go to Evo. As I said it could be a serious financial hit to go to Vegas for some people at a time when money is scarce in this country.

Sisko

I thought the date was the issue myself originally till today where I'm now getting the impression it is the prize.

I've no issue with people having a preference , I was talking about people not attending just cause of the prize

Azza

Well the proximity to Inferno might be another factor. Might be too much effort or money to go to two events so close.

Robbknoll

Azza wrote: »

).
Asking people to get a job if money is a concern is abit irratating. In case you haven't noticed there is a recession on and its not quite so simply to get a job on the drop of a hat to finance trips to Las Vegas to play in a video game competition.

Probably takin this to heart a small bit. And i can tell you its not that hard to get a job if you look hard enough, havent you yourself found one if im correct? My friend just started a new job last week... Maybe we should talk about this in the recession thread Azza That wasnt even the point i was trying to make anyway and think it should have been taken with a pinch of salt.

EmSixTeen wrote: »

I don't have much right to be commenting here, but bloody hell, is this for seriousness? I'd be jumping at the fecking opportunity.

Robbknoll

Azza wrote: »

).
Asking people to get a job if money is a concern is abit irratating. In case you haven't noticed there is a recession on and its not quite so simply to get a job on the drop of a hat to finance trips to Las Vegas to play in a video game competition.

Probably takin this to heart a small bit. And i can tell you its not that hard to get a job if you look hard enough, havent you yourself found one if im correct? My friend just started a new job last week... Maybe we should talk about this in the recession thread Azza That wasnt even the point i was trying to make anyway and think it should have been taken with a pinch of salt.

EmSixTeen wrote: »

I don't have much right to be commenting here, but bloody hell, is this for seriousness? I'd be jumping at the fecking opportunity.

Personally i thought this would have been the attitude of nearly everyone :pac: its more like a holiday with street fighter haha and when does anyone go on a holiday that costs them NOTHING? :eek:

Sabre0001

Robbknoll wrote: »

its more like a holiday with street fighter haha and when does anyone go on a holiday that costs them NOTHING? :eek:

Accomodation, EVO entry and living expenses for the duration aren't covered

Dreddybajs

Robbknoll wrote: »

Personally i thought this would have been the attitude of nearly everyone :pac: its more like a holiday with street fighter haha and when does anyone go on a holiday that costs them NOTHING? :eek:

Wow, did you seriously not read the rest of Azza's post or what? :eek:

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

I don't think it's necessary to put a suggestion forward to support an idea I'm not at all sure I'm in agreement of. I just don't want that idea spreading to screw up Inferno which I am currently completely happy with

So effectively your answer is no, you don't have a better idea?

Seriously, if you have one, I'd love to get it from you and this goes for everyone here.

Things went wrong. I have no problem accepting that. I even have no problem accepting a little of the responsibility as I was there on the day and I could have voiced an opinion- I simply didn't have a problem myself with delaying it.

So now we are left with the problem that the nearest thing to a world body for fighting games wants an Irish seed and we currently don't have one.

There is an ancillary problem of the prize of a trip being offered. It is pretty plain that people don't seem to be willing to help send someone to Evo. I realise in the current climate this is not stinginess. If I am incorrect in this please let me know: for example if people wanted to throw money in a hat to help, or something else, that might help.

So tell me this: Has ANYONE got a better answer to the issue I find myself trying to deal with than simply the winner of Inferno on Sat is our top seeded player and also the person we tell EVO is our seeded player?

Considering the later we leave it the more expensive it's going to get?

Of course, the elephant in the room is that we don't at all. But personally, I would find it... disappointing if we don't find some way to avail of this opportunity and I am worried about burning a bridge we may need to cross later, if you will allow me to murder an analogy.

So this is me, a member of this new committee, starting as I mean to go on, taking responsibility for the issue and asking everyone in the community to pull together and help resolve a problem.

Dreddybajs

Calling Evo anything close to a "world body" for fighting games is complete hyperbole. It's just a tournament.

I'm sure if we can't send anyone over they'll have no trouble finding another use for the seed spot, I don't think that's a big deal at all personally.

edit: and no, I don't have a "better idea", given my position on this I have no idea what you mean or why I would have one

Doctor DooM

Dreddybajs wrote: »

edit: and no, I don't have a "better idea", given my position on this I have no idea what you mean or why I would have one

Well, you seem to think the one I recommend would be a bad idea. So this means you think there is a better solution, no?

So what you are saying is: We do nothing, and leave chunkis to sort it out himself?

Or are you simply saying no, you don't wish to help me sort this out?


I think it may be a big deal seeing as SRK put us on the front page.

Vyze

Doctor DooM wrote: »

Well, you seem to think the one I recommend would be a bad idea. So this means you think there is a better solution, no?

So what you are saying is: We do nothing, and leave chunkis to sort it out himself?

Or are you simply saying no, you don't wish to help me sort this out?

This is a pretty immature way of reading what Dreddy is saying. It's possible to disagree with something without knowing a solution for it. World hunger, famine, the popularity of Jedward. There are plenty of things you can find to be wrong without knowing what a magical fix for everything is.

Doctor DooM

Vyze wrote: »

This is a pretty immature way of reading what Dreddy is saying. It's possible to disagree with something without knowing a solution for it. World hunger, famine, the popularity of Jedward. There are plenty of things you can find to be wrong without knowing what a magical fix for everything is.

Dreddy pointed out in rather ascerbic terms that he believes what I suggested to be a bad idea.

I am asking for him to expand on his point rather than simply say it's a bad idea. In effect to help me.

I am doing this because, as I pointed out, we are trying to make things better. I do not wish to do anything off the cuff as this is what lead to this problem in the first place.