Comreg open consultation on 2.6GHz band

Apogee

http://www.comreg.ie/publications/information_notice_-_call_for_input_on_potential_uses_and_licensing_options_of_the_2_6_ghz_spectrum_band.583.103624.p.html

Sponge Bob

Interesting, they are looking for 'advice' on how best to punt UPC out of it. Most likely the key advice will come from the dept of Finance and shall be marked "confidential"

watty

A previous government created this idiocy against ITU and EU allocations. No doubt the Tax payer will foot the bill again for past Government mistakes.

watty

Of course UPC needs to have HD on it to be competitive with Sky (which would require more spectrum, not less), and should have been allowed to pair it with uplink bandwidth, so as to be able to compete with DSL, Digiweb & Metro outside cable areas.

So suggesting they should use MPEG4 instead of MPEG2 (a big upgrade expense to deliver the same thing) and then Comreg make money licensing it to a Mobile WiMax or Mobile LTE operator is possibly trying to make two wrongs equal a right.

We don't need more not-really-broadband-Mobile. We need fixed wireless Broadband outside fibre areas.

Also pay DTT is dead. So it seems a bit mean the following week to look to cut back MMDS.

Sponge Bob

watty wrote: »

Also pay DTT is dead. So it seems a bit mean the following week to look to cut back MMDS.

It looks even meaner when UPC were offered the pay DTT licence only a week ago

Upgrading the 15 or 20 MMDS masts to mpeg4 and then the cpe in the relatively few premises using mmds nowadays would cost a lot ....especially with the licence running out in 2014 or maybe 2019 latest.

The Cush

watty wrote: »

A previous government created this idiocy against ITU and EU allocations. No doubt the Tax payer will foot the bill again for past Government mistakes.

Not correct, the EU issued its first regulation for this band in 2008 (Commission Decision 2008/477/EC) and only at ITU WRC-2000 was it identified as additional spectrum for IMT-2000.

When Ray Burke announced at the Fianna Fáil Ard-Fheis in early 1988 that MMDS was to be introduced the band had no single primary allocation across Europe.

In Europe the band has been used for various different applications ranging from ENG/OB, Fixed Links, FWA, MMDS to military radiolocation, aeronautical radionavigation and radio astronomy.

France and Bulgaria will continue to use it for military applications even with the EU Decision in place also MMDS is covered by the definition of ECS in the Framework Directive and falls within the scope of the EC Decision.

Sponge Bob

The EU through CEPT/ERO fully recognised that there was a primary allocation in Ireland till 2014 at least and the UK has assessed its impact on the 2500-2700 band when consulting on it in 2008.

Most countries call this large block of spectrum 2500-2700 or 2500-2690. Only comreg calls it the 2600 band for some odd reason.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The EU through CEPT/ERO fully recognised that there was a primary allocation in Ireland till 2014

and also the renewal option to 2019.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Most countries call this large block of spectrum 2500-2700 or 2500-2690. Only comreg calls it the 2600 band for some odd reason.

The term is also used elsewhere e.g. http://circa.europa.eu/Public/irc/infso/radiospectrum/library?l=/public_documents_2006/rsc15_march_2006/rscom06-10_imt-2000pdf/_EN_1.0_&a=d

Sponge Bob

The Cush wrote: »

and also the renewal option to 2019.

Initially no, when CEPT first scoped the band 9 years back Comreg told them it was allocated until 2015 (P31) where most countries were clearing it by 2010. Comreg may have told CEPT this as early as 2001 and had not corrected that by 2005 , eg when CEPT sent out a questionairre referred to here . One does tend to rely on CEPT to find out certain precise licence durations pre ODTR. That latter doc also tells us the Vodafone 900mhz spectrum was allocated in 1993 and expires in 2011 as does the O2 900mhz spectrum allocated in 1997.

Thereafter in the mid-late decade the 2500-2690 band was earmarked for 3g expansion which effectively became LTE over the course of the decade as standards evolved.

My comment on the "2500-2690" 'phrase' was really designed to ensure that a search on ERO/CEPT or EU sites threw up the optimal maximum number of hits for you Cush

The only known map of live MMDS sites is on page 246 of an OFCOM document HERE ( Figure 50) and is based on information prodded out of Comreg and UPC by Ofcom in 2006 and 2007. Naturally we Irish were never troubled with this sort of data by Comreg

Sponge Bob

Of further note is that UPC are now BIDDING for and WINNING blocks in the 2500-2690 band in spectrum auctions. They formed half a consortium called Ziggo 4 which won 40mhz in Holland last month. They are HARDLY going to let the mobile operators walk off with a band they already have unless they have a shot at a 40mhz block....or even a 40mhz guaranteed reservation on a surrender and regrant scheme in urban areas for starters

The band is ideal in urban areas where UPC are most active and they only had 74000 MMDS customers as of end 2009 (P24) down from 87000 as of end 2008 (P20) and 105000 end 2007 (P12) and linearly heading for Precisely 0 MMDS customers by end 2015 at that rate. An extension to 2019 is wholly unjustified....200mhz of spectrum reserved for a couple of TV viewers when it could be used by 100's of 1000's in urban areas instead.

http://www.ihsglobalinsight.com/SDA/SDADetail18597.htm

While the successful bids have not yet been disclosed, they are expected to be around 50 million euro (US$67 billion), a far cry from the almost 3 billion euro paid by the big three operators for their 3G spectrum ten years ago.

It turned out that instead of €50m they got €2.6m and the 40mhz block that UPC got cost €400-600k for a densely packed country of 16m rather rich people, results here and commentary here

The German Auction started last month ( ongoing at round 206) and you can see the bid status HERE by band. Instructively paired 5mhz blocks are 20 times more valuable at 800mhz than at 2.5ghz if that is any help The entire 2500-2690 band is bid at around €1m a Megahertz there at a total aggregate of €3.6bn for all the bands. Commentators expect the €3.6bn to double by the auction end meaning a 40mhz block will crudely cost €80m up from €40m now.

The poor Dutch must be sick after offloading it at not much more than €100k a megahertz.

The Cush

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Initially no, when CEPT first scoped the band 9 years back Comreg told them it was allocated until 2015 (P31) where most countries were clearing it by 2010. Comreg may have told CEPT this as early as 2001 and had not corrected that by 2005 , eg when CEPT sent out a questionairre referred to here . One does tend to rely on CEPT to find out certain precise licence durations pre ODTR. That latter doc also tells us the Vodafone 900mhz spectrum was allocated in 1993 and expires in 2011 as does the O2 900mhz spectrum allocated in 1997.

Normally yes, but as the present MMDS regulations came into force in 2003 with the 2014 expiry date and 2019 renewal extension the CEPT documentation is a little out of date and wasn't updated in their documentation until Dec 2005.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

Thereafter in the mid-late decade the 2500-2690 band was earmarked for 3g expansion which effectively became LTE over the course of the decade as standards evolved.

In 2005 ECC/DEC/(05)05 allocated the entire band to terrestrial IMT from mixed satellite/terrestrial IMT (satellite IMT being the reason digital MMDS lost 4 channels in the band)

Sponge Bob wrote: »

My comment on the "2500-2690" 'phrase' was really designed to ensure that a search on ERO/CEPT or EU sites threw up the optimal maximum number of hits for you Cush

Thanks , have the reports etc. from from CEPT, the EU, odtr and Comreg going back to the late 90's when this band was been planned for IMT at WRC-2000.

Sponge Bob wrote: »

The only known map of live MMDS sites is on page 246 of an OFCOM document HERE ( Figure 50) and is based on information prodded out of Comreg and UPC by Ofcom in 2006 and 2007. Naturally we Irish were never troubled with this sort of data by Comreg

It was also in some of the odtr MMDS licence consultations if I remember correctly.

Sponge Bob

You fairly had your beady eye on it Cush you stalker you

Sponge Bob

Just to tidy up.

Finland only got €4m for all the spectrum 2500-2690mhz in late 2009

Denmark got €150m for the same spectrum early this month

http://www.glgroup.com/News/Final-Result-of-the-2.5GHz-auction-in-Denmark-48309.html

Sweden got around €250m last year.

http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSL0875170820080508

Comreg started consulting after UPC passed on the DTT licence last week and after the Danish result came in. Not a co incidence I would say

Denmark and Ireland are demographically quite similar, 60% urban with cable/dsl and 40% rural with no cable but dsl in most cases. Forgot to mention Denmark is seriously installing fibre....not like us.

Apogee

The Cush wrote: »

Normally yes, but as the present MMDS regulations came into force in 2003 with the 2014 expiry date and 2019 renewal extension the CEPT documentation is a little out of date and wasn't updated in their documentation until Dec 2005.

The 2014/2019 cutoff applies to the original Chorus licence. The NTL licence was reduced to 2012 (and presumably 2017).

Sponge Bob

MMDS was supposed to roll out to 29 masts in 1989 but only made it to perhaps as few as 24 in the end.





Only 21 existed by 2006 when Comreg gave their V1 map to Ofcom



I suspect that were the old NTL analogue frequencies put to use then UPC could even offer LTE in Galway and Dublin as long as they said it was a telly service

The Cush

Apogee wrote: »

The NTL licence was reduced to 2012 (and presumably 2017).

Comreg has never indicated publically if the renewed licence would expire in 2017 or 2019. I assume this will be discussed as part of the current review process.

This from a UPC reply to a 2008 Comreg consutation on Managing the Radio Spectrum

8. In late 2002, ntl’s licence term was reduced by two (2) years to April 19, 2012
pursuant to regulation 18(3) of the Wireless Telegraphy (Programme Services
Distribution) Regulations 1999 (SI No. 73 of 1999) (the “1999 Regulations”)
for failure to comply with a licence condition relating to the full digitisation of
the ntl network. This digitisation was subsequently completed in 2004.

9. This therefore means that ntl currently operates under a licence that is due to
expire in April 2012 while chorus has a licence that runs until April 2014. UPC
Ireland has in the past formally requested ComReg consider harmonising the
term date of both Licences to 2014 – a request that is still outstanding.

Sponge Bob

And in the ongoing German Spectrum Auction 2 x 5mhz at 800mhz is now 25 times more valuable than 2 x 5mhz at 2500mhz (ish).

http://www2.bundesnetzagentur.de/frequenzversteigerung2010/ergebnisse.html

Sponge Bob

Sponge Bob wrote: »

And in the ongoing German Spectrum Auction 2 x 5mhz at 800mhz is now 25 times more valuable than 2 x 5mhz at 2500mhz (ish).

http://www2.bundesnetzagentur.de/frequenzversteigerung2010/ergebnisse.html

make that 30x more valuable.

Sponge Bob

Frequency auction over , €4.4bn bid.

http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=newsarchive&sid=aH_wPphlu4A8




I would estimate that on a POPULATION WEIGHED basis the same spectrum here would fetch €225m with the entire MMDS band going for €16m which is around 1 years revenue for UPC MMDS nowadays ( ex vat)

Apogee

The Cush wrote: »

UPC Ireland has in the past formally requested ComReg consider harmonising the term date of both Licences to 2014 – a request that is still outstanding.

If UPC are so concerned with "harmonising", Comreg can always offer to bring the NTL/Chorus licences into line and set the end date for both to 2012!

On a more general note, what is the trend across Europe wrt to plans for the 2.5/2.6GHz bands - mostly mobile broadband? How much will be allocated to fixed wireless?

watty

To be any real use for "broadband", all of it would need to be one operator fixed Broadband or at a pinch one Mobile operator. Otherwise it's simply not enough better than Imagine's "Mobile"/Nomadic WiMax or 2.1GHz 3G/HSPA.

Probably Mobile only LTE. You need minimum 3 x 20MHz to 9 x 20MHz FDD for ONE operator to achieve potential of LTE. That's a minimum of 120MHz excluding upstream/downstream guard for just 3 channels, which is absolute minimum cellular system. In Denser Urban environments to get indoor penetration you need not not reduce power too much, so more channels needed as intercell interference with N=3 is likely. N=9 is over 360MHz including guard band.

If you have more than one operator you have stupid 5MHz channels.

If you want really entry level real Broadband and no serious congestion/contention in urband areas you need a single operator with 9 x 20MHz FDD channels. Rural only needs 3 x 20MHz Channels.

Even then the Peak Busy hour will only be about 1Mbps. But in same conditions 3G/HSPA is heading toward 100kBps.

You can't break laws of physics. The only way really to have more speed compared to present mobile is more spectrum. Multiple infrastructure operators results in smaller chunks of spectrum and less optimal use.