Printing preferences - dye sub or high quality inkjet?

smelltheglove

Hi all,

I want to get a few different views on this. I know Steve will know it all as always I dont like bothering him too much with queries when I still havent found time to go visit the new location, some of my other suppliers gave me their views previously.

Anyway, I print mainly 8x10 images in work, I print on site within minutes. At the moment I am using a dye sub. I am not hugely impressed with it to be honest. I dont like the matt print at all so have resorted to glossy but to be honest I'm not mad about glossy as most of my clients buy cheap frames where the picture is not mounted so after time it will stick to the glass, also I prefer my ink jet prints.

So I bought the dye sub because I didnt want to be bringing in my expensive wide format to work where I have limited space, this is an epson 7600. 2 of my suppliers each gave me their opinion that I was mad to use a dye sub when I had such a high quality printer as it was, that it would be cheaper to use the bigger printer but I didnt listen. It could go under my counter neatly enough I suppose and the quality of the print seems to be much better. Up until now I have just used it for canvas and not bothered printing photos from it. If I were to bring it in I suppose I could be onto a bigger earner as I can offer larger on site prints, canvas within a few hours etc etc but is an inkjet print acceptable?

So what would you do, use a dye sub gloss or go for the inkjet with a nice lustre paper?

stcstc

well

i would say for your situation the dyesub is a better bet, people can buy on impulse etc

the 7600 is a good printer, but be aware that the inks are not K3 inks, and therefor the longevity isnt great

if you print a large canvas for example onsite, it will take around 20 mins to print, then you need a table and tools to stretch etc again all onsite

and while your stretching the canvas, your not taking pictures of other kids to take more orders from.

unless you had a decent amount of space, with a separate space for stretching etc i wouldnt worry about taking the printer to site

and the quality of prints from the dye sub will be fine. from the newer epson wide formats there would be a difference, the newer epsons have a much wider dynamic range from a dye sub

smelltheglove

stcstc wrote: »

and the quality of prints from the dye sub will be fine. from the newer epson wide formats there would be a difference, the newer epsons have a much wider dynamic range from a dye sub

You see thats the thing, the print quality is soooo much better, but is it ok to sell a jpeg printed image on nice paper unlaminated? The dye sub is working out quite costly and one spec of dust gets in there then the print has to be redone. The time scale for printing a 8x10 say would be quicker on the epson and according to ink supplier the inks should be good for up to 75 years. I wouldnt really be into stretching a canvas until closing time anyway, it would be a case of client coming back in at the end of the day to collect if needed that day. I have on occasion in a rush brought canvas and stretchers in and stretched the canvas in there no hassles so that would be ok.

I know I would be better off being able to print larger pics in there my main thing is whether ink jet is ok unlaminated against the dye sub. Of course if I had the few bob I'd go for a higher end dye sub but dont see the point in spending it at the minute in the current climate when there is such a good printer sitting idle most of the week.

VisionaryP

I love my Mitsubishi CP3800 dye sub. Wouldn't swap it for anything.

smelltheglove

VisionaryP wrote: »

I love my Mitsubishi CP3800 dye sub. Wouldn't swap it for anything.

Yep, a good one, I just have an old kodak 1400 so not too happy with it, I'd love the one you have but funds wont stretch that far at the minute.

Fajitas!

Really depends on your situation, I can afford to take my time and wouldn't mind a higher price, so I'd much rather quality than speed.

smelltheglove

Fajitas! wrote: »

Really depends on your situation, I can afford to take my time and wouldn't mind a higher price, so I'd much rather quality than speed.

You're right quality is of the upmost importance, using the dye sub the last few months I'm just not mad on it, Ive seen better, which is why I'm considering bringing the epson it, which would free some space at home too tbh. What would you think Fajitas about it? Would you go with the epson if quality was better even though its inkjet?

Fajitas!

It depends on your clients at the end of the day - Do they want and/or want prints that fast, and/or would they pay the extra buck if you're using inkjet? Will they appreciate the larger range of papers you'll be flogging with an inkjet, or are they just after 'photos'?

I'm probably biased against dyesubs because the last time I was looking at them, the quality just wasn't up to what I wanted. I suspect that's changed with newer models though.

Also, do you *really* need to bring the larger printer in? I mean, generally if people are ordering large prints, they don't expect them within 30/40 minutes, giving a day's wait wouldn't be too out of line imo. As long as you've samples of what it can do handy, and your range of papers, you should be fine.

smelltheglove

Fajitas! wrote: »

Also, do you *really* need to bring the larger printer in? I mean, generally if people are ordering large prints, they don't expect them within 30/40 minutes, giving a day's wait wouldn't be too out of line imo. As long as you've samples of what it can do handy, and your range of papers, you should be fine.

I definitely need to do them on site. I have a market location and there are a lot of local who come in to me looking to get photos fixed up or pictures taken knowing they can get them straight away but there are also a lot of travellers that come into the place who come in especially, sometimes I get people coming from as far as Limerick, I've had a few from Donegal, they know that they can come in, get their pics taken with no fuss and go home with them, some ask for canvas but dont go for it as they only come to Dublin for a few hours. I had one girl get snappy with me on Saturday because she couldnt get a canvas done on the spot, and she wasnt a traveller either!

So you prefer inkjet to dye sub I take it.

Fajitas!

I like the options availible with inkjet, I guess would be the best way of putting it

ValueInIreland

I don't understand you worries about the InkJet, They are better than Dye Sub for everything - except speed. The Dye subs are best for event type work as they are very fast and the printers ar very robust.

Heebie

I've always hated dye sublimation.. it tends to leave a silvery sheen over the top of the image, and because it layers things up.. you end up with almost a texture-map of the image with the darker areas being raised physically above the light areas.

A *GOOD* inkjet on a *GOOD* paper is definitely going to look better. (the good parts are important.. a crap inkjet will give you crap prints that will fade to crap in a crappily short space of time.)

smelltheglove

Yeah I've been thinking about this all day and I think the epson is outweighing the dye sub! Now to convince the hubbie to transport it for me as the thing weighs a tonne..!

Heebie

stcstc wrote: »

the 7600 is a good printer, but be aware that the inks are not K3 inks, and therefor the longevity isnt great

The Ultrachrome inks have pretty awesome longevity. On the right paper they are "rated" to last as long as 150-200 years. (so I'd expect half that to be somewhat realistic under ideal circumstances.) I used to print on a 7600 all the time. I've got several prints that are about 8 years old that don't have any noticeable fade at all.

To the original poster: If you've got a 7600, you could really big giving your customers great quality prints. =D It will take longer though. With good color profiles and matte black & light black inks, Epson's true matte finish paper gives a beautiful result with serious longevity that won't stick to the glass at all. Canvas tends to be alright.. although even with matte black inks, the shadows tend to come out a bit flat. (although infinitely better with customer color profiles than without!)

Heebie

They are very heavy! and.. if you don't drain it and it gets shaken around.. icky poo! =O

I remember staying until like 3:30am to setup the 7600 at work to replace our old Encad Novajet. Getting it up onto the flipping stand by myself was a nightmare! It was well worth it though

smelltheglove wrote: »

Yeah I've been thinking about this all day and I think the epson is outweighing the dye sub! Now to convince the hubbie to transport it for me as the thing weighs a tonne..!

positivenote

sorry to hijack this thread, but just a little advice needed if possible. im working off an epson photo R320 and i know that its a way off the printers mentioned, but i'm looking at printing up alot of images (colour and b/w) over the next few months. Should i stick with it or is the quality not the best on it? when i was out with steve a few months ago he was getting beautifully toned images that i could never seem to get myself...
thanks guys, and sorry for hijacking

smelltheglove

positivenote wrote: »

sorry to hijack this thread, but just a little advice needed if possible. im working off an epson photo R320 and i know that its a way off the printers mentioned, but i'm looking at printing up alot of images (colour and b/w) over the next few months. Should i stick with it or is the quality not the best on it? when i was out with steve a few months ago he was getting beautifully toned images that i could never seem to get myself...
thanks guys, and sorry for hijacking

I dont know about your printer at all but comparing to Steves you will most likely not get his results as he is at the top of the game, Steves prints are always outstanding, he uses the most up to date inks and printers so he is guaranteed the best quality around. My printer would be 2 versions previous to his smaller printer and there would be a slight difference between them.

Having said that can you choose paper profiles? I mean say for canvas, I use fuji hd cotton canvas, so I downloaded the correct paper profile for it, the difference in print between that and the standard canvas profile was noticeable.

smelltheglove

Heebie wrote: »

They are very heavy! and.. if you don't drain it and it gets shaken around.. icky poo! =O

I remember staying until like 3:30am to setup the 7600 at work to replace our old Encad Novajet. Getting it up onto the flipping stand by myself was a nightmare! It was well worth it though

Thanks for the advice.

I have it standing on 2 of my husbands sub speakers at the minute to save space but I cant find the fixings for the stand now. Hopefully I will be able to get replacements. So I should drain the cartridges first yes? God when i got it it took weeks for me to figure it out properly. I was only looking for an a3 printer and this came up at a price that couldnt be missed so here I am with a nice fancy printer. SO you would recommend matte rather than lustre?

positivenote

yeah i saw steve's set up... its pretty special alright and there is no way i could compete with his end product. is there anywhere online that goes through the printer/paper/photoshop profiles as steve was mentioning somethig like that to me aswell ?

smelltheglove

positivenote wrote: »

yeah i saw steve's set up... its pretty special alright and there is no way i could compete with his end product. is there anywhere online that goes through the printer/paper/photoshop profiles as steve was mentioning somethig like that to me aswell ?

basically whatever paper you get you can google a profile for it, i.e. the canvas I mentioned, I googled the name and icc and got the profile through the fuji site. You just need to make sure you have the right paper profile sp there would be no point in using icc for kodak gloss on fuji pearl and so on.

Heebie

It's important to get a profile that accounts for both the paper AND the printer. Different papers will act very differently with different inks.

There is a point in using profiles for glossy papers.. they have different levels of "whiteness" and different color tints off of white. (some towards blue, some towards pink, some towards yellow) They also have different levels of reflectivity, and they probably all have some minimal level of capillary action across the surface of the finish. (minimal on true gloss, but there.. satin & lustre/pearl more so, and matte & canvas quite a bit more.)

Profiles you get that way won't be as accurate as custom color profiles made on the equipment you're using. Temperature, humidity, elevation, and other things will change things a bit. Using a "prefabricated" color profile is still infinitely better than using none. For a lot of people the "standard" sRGB color profile is adequate... but if you're at all fussy.. icky poo!

smelltheglove wrote: »

basically whatever paper you get you can google a profile for it, i.e. the canvas I mentioned, I googled the name and icc and got the profile through the fuji site. You just need to make sure you have the right paper profile sp there would be no point in using icc for kodak gloss on fuji pearl and so on.

Heebie

positivenote wrote: »

sorry to hijack this thread, but just a little advice needed if possible. im working off an epson photo R320 and i know that its a way off the printers mentioned, but i'm looking at printing up alot of images (colour and b/w) over the next few months. Should i stick with it or is the quality not the best on it? when i was out with steve a few months ago he was getting beautifully toned images that i could never seem to get myself...
thanks guys, and sorry for hijacking

R320 is a dye-based ink set (good ink sets are pigment-based)

The prints you get off the R320 won't last very long at all.. they'll have visible fade within just a couple of years.. within 8-10 they'll be faded to the point where they will look awful.

Thing is. you can get print that will look good off of it...even look fantastic if done right.. and you'll save a lot of money on ink... so if they don't need to last a long time.. go for it. If you're selling the stuff or want it to last.. get something else.

Heebie

smelltheglove wrote: »

SO you would recommend matte rather than lustre?

I really like matte paper... it's my thang.

I also really like Epson's Lustre paper.

and.. I really really really dig Crane Muséo paper. (Crane is the company that makes the paper that U.S. currency is printed on.. Museo has that kind of longevity... and is a true cotton-rag matte finish paper.. very fine-artsy.)

It's NOT great for shadow detail.. shadows tend to be a little washed out even with matte blank inks & custom color profiles.. but for stuff that doesn't need to be super contrasty, or doesn't have a lot of shadows.. it's absolutely brilliant.

I'm also big on NOT GLOSSY! NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT GLOSSY!

Did I say that enough?

Satin and Luster/Pearl papers give you almost as much contrast illusion as glossy.. but they don't stick to the glass if you frame them without a matte.

smelltheglove

Heebie wrote: »

I really like matte paper... it's my thang.

I also really like Epson's Lustre paper.

and.. I really really really dig Crane Muséo paper. (Crane is the company that makes the paper that U.S. currency is printed on.. Museo has that kind of longevity... and is a true cotton-rag matte finish paper.. very fine-artsy.)

It's NOT great for shadow detail.. shadows tend to be a little washed out even with matte blank inks & custom color profiles.. but for stuff that doesn't need to be super contrasty, or doesn't have a lot of shadows.. it's absolutely brilliant.

I'm also big on NOT GLOSSY! NOT NOT NOT NOT NOT GLOSSY!

Did I say that enough?

Satin and Luster/Pearl papers give you almost as much contrast illusion as glossy.. but they don't stick to the glass if you frame them without a matte.

You know your stuff Heebie! I think I may go lustre or matte, maybe even try both. I was going to order fuji but may check out the epson paper first. Ok now to convince the other half to do the transporting.

Thanks for the input, greatly appreciated!

stcstc

for the kind of portraits you do racheal, i would either use epson premium lustre or fuji pearl

they are both the kind of thing the clients will expect

the matt papers and fine art papers are much more expensive, (like about 100% more) and are very nice for arty type portriats but i am not sure this is what your clients will be acpecting to see

the fuji pearl and epson premium lustre both have similar to epson matt figures for longevity etc

smelltheglove

Cool Steve, thanks, you are probably right, my clients come back often for more up to date pics so youd be right, they wouldnt be expecting artsy.

Borderfox

smelltheglove wrote: »

Yep, a good one, I just have an old kodak 1400 so not too happy with it, I'd love the one you have but funds wont stretch that far at the minute.

I used the Kodak for about 6 months and the prints out of it are a heap of sh*t, changed to Epson and much better.

Quality control on the Kodak media is non-existent too - scratches/dust/spots

smelltheglove

Borderfox wrote: »

I used the Kodak for about 6 months and the prints out of it are a heap of sh*t, changed to Epson and much better.

Quality control on the Kodak media is non-existent too - scratches/dust/spots

Oh I hear ya! And in a dusty market it makes the job even harder! It is quite slow also so I would think that printing on the 7600 will prob be quicker then it anyway!

So now to sell the kodak I think, lol, will anyone buy it though:(

VisionaryP

smelltheglove wrote: »

So now to sell the kodak I think, lol, will anyone buy it though:(

Stevie Wonder is in town next month.

smelltheglove

VisionaryP wrote: »

Stevie Wonder is in town next month.

haha, brilliant:D

Borderfox

Maybe move to 8x6 and get one of the Mitsubshi CPW models, very cost effective and speedy.

smelltheglove

Borderfox wrote: »

Maybe move to 8x6 and get one of the Mitsubshi CPW models, very cost effective and speedy.

My turnover would be less then you see and as it is a lot of people ask for larger than 8 x10 but settle for that size as it is the largest I do at the minute.

I'm going to move the epson in tomorrow, will stop by Jm Photo on the way to work on Thursday, I have decided to get 16 inch pearl roll to start off with.

smelltheglove

Well the printer was set up in work yesterday, a few teething problems, for some reason I cant use the 2 printers on the computer at the same time, when I hooked up the dy sub couldnt be recognised anymore but hey, why use it when I have gotten such fantastic print quality from the epson.

I got a roll of 16 inch fuji pearl in Jm Photo this morning and the difference between the prints is UNREAL. The first print job was for another stall holder and response was great, anyone she showed it to came over and commented on the quality. Even a stall holder in another market asked for a copy to hang on the wall, so there you go free advertising, he had supplied the crown so I gave him a pic with a little bit of text as advertisement. I have a 12x16 print hanging now that seems to be getting a bit of interest so I'm delighted with my decision, well worth the hassle.

Thanks for all the help and advice etc.

Heebie

What type of connections do the two printers use? (I think the 7600 can be used either as an LPT port printer, or as a USB printer.. no clue about your dye-sub, obviously.)

It sounds like the quality is going to sell the prints for you..and that's a good thing. Watch your pricing & make sure that you're not selling below cost or anything silly like that.

smelltheglove wrote: »

Well the printer was set up in work yesterday, a few teething problems, for some reason I cant use the 2 printers on the computer at the same time, when I hooked up the dy sub couldnt be recognised anymore but hey, why use it when I have gotten such fantastic print quality from the epson.

I got a roll of 16 inch fuji pearl in Jm Photo this morning and the difference between the prints is UNREAL. The first print job was for another stall holder and response was great, anyone she showed it to came over and commented on the quality. Even a stall holder in another market asked for a copy to hang on the wall, so there you go free advertising, he had supplied the crown so I gave him a pic with a little bit of text as advertisement. I have a 12x16 print hanging now that seems to be getting a bit of interest so I'm delighted with my decision, well worth the hassle.

Thanks for all the help and advice etc.

smelltheglove

Both are USB, sure I prob won't use the dye sub again anyway!

For now 8x10s are €15, I sold a fair few today, everyone seems delighted with the qualiti!

stcstc

are you also charging for taking the picture ?

smelltheglove

No, free sitting but I get a few canvas orders too and have a selection of frames also.

Ricky91t

I'm considering getting a printer, As it'll be handy when I sell images instead of going to a local place and getting them done there.

Rachel, I'm just wondering what the quality of the Kodak is like? And price per print if possible? And how much it set you back?

I was going to start my own thread but as I know you work in the business and used the printer for your business it'll be the best answer I'll get.

Thanks

Borderfox

Forget about the Kodak Ricky, I had one for about a year and it broke my heart. *****y quality media and printer had to be cleaned so often

Ricky91t

Borderfox wrote: »

Forget about the Kodak Ricky, I had one for about a year and it broke my heart. *****y quality media and printer had to be cleaned so often

Thanks for that, any recommendations then?

Borderfox

Any of the Mitsubishi/Citizen dye subs, preferably the roll fed ones as the print quality is excellent. Check out http://www.systeminsight.co.uk/web/ for reviews

stcstc

the Mitsubishis are good

i quite like the matt output from the sony snap lab thing too

is there a reason for the dyesub and not just an inkjet?

Ricky91t

stcstc wrote: »

the Mitsubishis are good

i quite like the matt output from the sony snap lab thing too

is there a reason for the dyesub and not just an inkjet?

None what so ever, I just searched it and it seemed to be discontinued, So I assumed I could get it cheaply..

stcstc

actually the other one i have just recently installed somewhere is the fuji ask 2000, was very good

Ricky91t

Thanks for the suggestions, But they're all incredibly pricy :eek:

Borderfox

No such thing as a cheap dye sub, unit costs are pretty good though and they are fixed per print unlike inkjet

smelltheglove

Ricky I wouldn't recommend the kodak at all! Terrible prints, Mitsubishi produces good results, although with the glossy unless you have a mount in a frame it will stick to the glass, I've only recently discovered this when I went to change pictures in the kids room! I don't know what the matt is like though in Mitsubishi as I haven't used it but the kodak matt was dreadful!

I got my kodak second hand fir 200, I know why now though!

Ricky91t

Anyone have any epson recomendations? Less than the price of the 7600 would be nice, I don't really need anything more than A4

smelltheglove

Mine is 2 models old but still brilliant, I've seen people around here recommend an a3 version for around 500 try a search on Epsom and you might find relevant threads.

stcstc

it depends if you want to print B&W or just colour


if its just colour

then any of the ones with 6 carts will be ok

if you want B&W then you need to get one with 8 carts

the issue with getting any of the a4 printers are they are not linerised

and most manufactuers wont provide you with profiles

if you get one of the 2880 or something you will be able to use profiles from most of the paper manufacturers

Borderfox

I have seen some of the prints from the 2880 and its fantastic.