Another one Down..

AdMMM

You must have used that term about 50 times over the past week!

I do agree with you however

Odats

Sully wrote: »

BT2? As in, Brown Thomas 2? Penneys, afaik, have nothing to do with Brown
Thomas..

Crowd that owns penny's owns bts aswell. The westons afaik

19.5V

AdMMM wrote: »

You must have used that term about 50 times over the past week!

I do agree with you however

Twice & Thanks

Chochese

Sully wrote: »

BT2? As in, Brown Thomas 2? Penneys, afaik, have nothing to do with Brown Thomas..

Penneys (Primark) is owned by Associated British Foods, which in turn is controlled by the owners of Brown Thomas (the Weston family, if memory serves me correct).

There was talk of BT being put into the Egan's plot when ABF aquired it years back, but (obviously) nothing came of it.

merlante

19.5V wrote: »

What are your thoughts on the Ferrybank shopping Centre and the small shopping units in Abbey park both within a stones throw.

Again 5 times the retail space more than the UK per head..........I think you need to think a bit more on this one.....We irish can only shop a certain amount per week/month, 5 times the retail space is 5 times the retail space no matter where you live.

If Ferrybank is to open do you think that it will have a positive effect on Waterford city?

I think the Ferrybank centre would never have gotten through if it was in Waterford city's jurisdiction. I also think that this centre will never be anything more than a neighbourhood centre. Thankfully, in many ways, it didn't get the anchor tenants during the boom that would have had a detrimental affect on shopping patterns in the Waterford area.

There is no way Waterford has 5 times the retail space of a comparable centre in the UK. Waterford has pretty much the same retail space since 1993 when city square opened, before the boom. Waterford's retail provision has been largely static, and has possibly declined, in the century leading up to the opening of city square. Waterford consistently performs at a weaker level in terms of retail trade than its peer cities and perhaps even smaller towns, even during the boom. I am simply not seeing the big glut of retail space that has ruined Waterford. Those figures need to be explained and analysed in the context of Waterford anyway.

But if you are looking for culprits in Ireland, you could look at the likes of Athlone and to a lesser extent Kilkenny that have had retail provision put in during the boom that was way beyond what they could sustain.

What Waterford needs is the Newgate centre to consolidate everything. If we had that centre, then TkMaxx, Next and M&S wouldn't even want to set up on the outskirts, and there would be no Ferrybank centre trying to take advantage of a tricky planning situation. The Newgate centre has planning permission now. Let's pray something is built. I would also make the distinction between primary and secondary retail space. Waterford has too little of the former and too much of the latter.

AdMMM

Unfortunately, I can't ever realistically see the Newgate Centre being built. I can just imagine the archaeological minefield that it would pose when trying to lay foundations!

merlante

Well the permission is there. Some trenches would have been dug as part of the process. Apparently, apart from a church and graveyard, there's not a whole lot there anyway. Certainly nothing compared to City square/Penneys, which are much older sites.

That's not to say that they won't find anything, but really it's a question of cash for Newgate. I think it will be built by somebody when credit gets cheaper and when chains are starting to think about expanding again. I think it could be done now anyway, because there are so many shops not in Waterford currently, but it would be at a higher risk and a higher cost. It will definitely happen at some point though, in some shape or form, because there is money to be made.

dayshah

Part of the Newgate plan was a "5 star" (mug ugly) hotel. Given what has happened to Ard Rí and Belfry I don't think thats on the cards.

I don't think its feasible for the Newgate plan to go ahead in its current form.It should just be a retail development and not make a feck of Michael St.

Yes Boss

dayshah wrote: »

Part of the Newgate plan was a "5 star" (mug ugly) hotel. Given what has happened to Ard Rí and Belfry I don't think thats on the cards.

I don't think its feasible for the Newgate plan to go ahead in its current form.It should just be a retail development and not make a feck of Michael St.

Because Michael Street has such character!! (NOT)

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Part of the Newgate plan was a "5 star" (mug ugly) hotel. Given what has happened to Ard Rí and Belfry I don't think thats on the cards.

I don't think its feasible for the Newgate plan to go ahead in its current form.It should just be a retail development and not make a feck of Michael St.

It wouldn't be 5 star anyway... They could simply postpone the development of the hotel. Also, don't assume that the Belfry closed down because it wasn't doing good business, or because there was no future in it. Egans closed down and that place was doing well enough and had a solid future. It's as likely as the management were incompetent, or got tired of running the place, or they got good money from Penney's to get out of business. There are a hundred reasons why the place might close.

The same people said that City Square was not feasible at that size. 10 years later we were kicking ourselves for not adding an extra floor. The Newgate should go in as planned, they would get the anchor tenants. People would walk over their grannies for an M&S, and that is not the only large retailer absent from Waterford. Look at the business TkMaxx is doing on the ORR. There is massive demand for high st. retailers in Waterford.

As for fecking up Michael st., that street would look a hell of a lot better without that bloody stone masons gone and with the units vacated for the Newgate centre to be occupied with something.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

It wouldn't be 5 star anyway... They could simply postpone the development of the hotel.

My point is that they got permission for a specific plan, that in my view was ridiculous. This was the plan

Major regional shopping destination [I'm ok with that]
> Luxury hotel, leisure & conference centre [no chance]
> Quality residential units [no chance]
> Arts & Culture Centre [no chance]
> Restaurants [no chance]
> Open air auditorium [no chance]

Also as for empty buildings, I don't think thats a good reason to demolish them and replace them with building that are completely out of scale. Here is the brochure. http://www.bannon.ie/easyedit/files/waterford.pdf

The whole development needs to be completely thought out again, to take account of the changed circumstances.

Yes Boss

dayshah wrote: »

My point is that they got permission for a specific plan, that in my view was ridiculous. This was the plan

Major regional shopping destination [I'm ok with that]
> Luxury hotel, leisure & conference centre [no chance]
> Quality residential units [no chance]
> Arts & Culture Centre [no chance]
> Restaurants [no chance]
> Open air auditorium [no chance]

Also as for empty buildings, I don't think thats a good reason to demolish them and replace them with building that are completely out of scale. Here is the brochure. http://www.bannon.ie/easyedit/files/waterford.pdf

The whole development needs to be completely thought out again, to take account of the changed circumstances.[/QUOTE]

With capital projects of that nature, you have to plan into the future and not the present as suggested! We are all aware that Waterford if deficient in quality retail space which takes from it as a destination for shoppers from other regions!!

It is a pity that the planning appeals process was abused, otherwise it would already have been constructed.

comeraghs

Be careful what you say about the white elephant in Ferrybank or a certain Mod will ban you .... no kilkenny slagging allowed ... it´s not funny!


& Yes .... BT / BT2 / Primark are all owned by Gaylon Weston so it is entirely possible ..

Shame to see the city centre lose a hotel .. I don´t think that place was very well marketed ...

Yes Boss

comeraghs wrote: »

Be careful what you say about the white elephant in Ferrybank or a certain Mod will ban you .... no kilkenny slagging allowed ... it´s not funny!


& Yes .... BT / BT2 / Primark are all owned by Gaylon Weston so it is entirely possible ..

Shame to see the city centre lose a hotel .. I don´t think that place was very well marketed ...

The decision by Kilkenny County Council to allow the development of the White Elephant was purely opportunistic (rate chasing) on their behalf. It went against all the strategic principles of developing Cities!! Crazy stuff!!

jayboi

Ah yes Newgate shopping centre!
A terrific story of ignorance and stupidity.

Firstly and I just love this, those of you who can remember when the planning was going through one of the biggest objectors to it was the owner of the army shop on new street he said it would have a serious impact on his business......cut to a over a year later and he’s after bloody moving anyway!!

Then all the local business complaining that it would take away from their businesses? sure if all businesses were to adopt this attitude nothing would ever get built and things would stay the way they are forever, the likes of city square would have never of been built.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

My point is that they got permission for a specific plan, that in my view was ridiculous. This was the plan

Major regional shopping destination [I'm ok with that]
> Luxury hotel, leisure & conference centre [no chance]
> Quality residential units [no chance]
> Arts & Culture Centre [no chance]
> Restaurants [no chance]
> Open air auditorium [no chance]

Also as for empty buildings, I don't think thats a good reason to demolish them and replace them with building that are completely out of scale. Here is the brochure. http://www.bannon.ie/easyedit/files/waterford.pdf

The whole development needs to be completely thought out again, to take account of the changed circumstances.

You don't think that we could do with quality residential units? I'll take the lower rents on quality residential units thank you very much. The recession won't last forever you know.

No Arts and Culture either, you're a hard man.

Restaurants either, yikes. Restaurants are doing a booming trade at the moment apparently, for some reason. Business way up in last two years according to Newstalk. Visited La Boheme, L'Atmosphere and Bodega recently and each time they were quite busy.

Not a fan of open air auditoria either?

If somebody is willing to build all this, and invest in Waterford, and create jobs and activity, and make Waterford a desirable place for people to live and shop, then I'd say great. More power to them. Waterford never got the investment during the boom, so there is room for expansion, even now.

You'd tell him to put his hand back in his pocket no doubt. But I suppose instead we could just all gather around and have wakes for old beloved businesses and celebrate the gradual destruction of the city.

merlante

jayboi wrote: »

Ah yes Newgate shopping centre!
A terrific story of ignorance and stupidity.

Firstly and I just love this, those of you who can remember when the planning was going through one of the biggest objectors to it was the owner of the army shop on new street he said it would have a serious impact on his business......cut to a over a year later and he’s after bloody moving anyway!!

Then all the local business complaining that it would take away from their businesses? sure if all businesses were to adopt this attitude nothing would ever get built and things would stay the way they are forever, the likes of city square would have never of been built.

This is Waterford in a nutshell. Businessmen don't want to see any competition, and play their own part in taking down the city. So when they tell you things like, "the city centre is dying" or "business is down because of pedestrianisation" or "such and such would never work in Waterford," etc., bear in mind you are talking to parochial, small time businessmen who don't want to compete, just make some easy money. And if they can club together to take on new businesses, the council or the public, or whoever, then all the better.

As any economist will tell you, a diverse marketplace will give the best value to consumers and will generate the most business for the market as a whole, provided businesses bother to be competitive. The Newgate centre will/would bring a ton of shoppers to Waterford and the city as a whole would benefit. But all the usual suspects are thinking about is how to deal with the competition. They'd rather a big slice of a small market than a small slice of a much larger market.

dayshah

merlante wrote: »

You don't think that we could do with quality residential units? I'll take the lower rents on quality residential units thank you very much. The recession won't last forever you know.

No Arts and Culture either, you're a hard man.

Restaurants either, yikes. Restaurants are doing a booming trade at the moment apparently, for some reason. Business way up in last two years according to Newstalk. Visited La Boheme, L'Atmosphere and Bodega recently and each time they were quite busy.

Not a fan of open air auditoria either?

If somebody is willing to build all this, and invest in Waterford, and create jobs and activity, and make Waterford a desirable place for people to live and shop, then I'd say great. More power to them. Waterford never got the investment during the boom, so there is room for expansion, even now.

You'd tell him to put his hand back in his pocket no doubt. But I suppose instead we could just all gather around and have wakes for old beloved businesses and celebrate the gradual destruction of the city.

Financiers don't particularly care what I want, or what good for Waterford. They don't care about lower rents, or the the benefits of an auditorium on a shopping centres roof.

They care about what will make money.

That's why its not going to happen. Time to move on and design something that can happen.

merlante

dayshah wrote: »

Financiers don't particularly care what I want, or what good for Waterford. They don't care about lower rents, or the the benefits of an auditorium on a shopping centres roof.

They care about what will make money.

That's why its not going to happen. Time to move on and design something that can happen.

Well, in my opinion, they would make plenty of money, and it can happen. And in fact, given the tract of land they have, and the permission to build, I would say that it is inevitable that somebody will build it within the next few years, maybe minus the hotel, etc., in "phase 1".

I base this on the fact that Waterford/Tramore is 82% of the size of Galway, and 66% of the size of Limerick, but yet these cities have developed hugely during the boom, and seem to be surviving now, whereas Waterford has lagged behind. Even if Waterford built the Newgate centre, it would still have considerably less retail provision than these cities, which have probably overextended themselves. Towns like Athlone and probably Kilkenny certainly have overextended themselves. Just by comparing Waterford's population and retail provision to these other places, it seems pretty clear that the Newgate centre would survive and eventually thrive in Waterford.

What is killing Waterford at the moment is an undersupply of quality and/or suitably large retail units. This combined with the (sensible) council policy of keeping comparison shopping in the city centre and away from the outskirts, means that there are certain highly popular retailers that simply can't get into Waterford, or at least are holding back for a spot in a shopping centre so that they do not have to completely redevelop existing units, ala Penneys. Since Waterford does not have many major retailers, many people, including Waterford people, bypass it for Cork or Dublin. This is why Waterford is relatively weak, not because Waterford people just don't like to shop or because Waterford people are dirt poor (though we are somewhat poorer).

My worry is that the opinion of the "dogs in the street" that Waterford is finished will permeate into the mindset of investors, who might otherwise see Waterford as a good bet based on the numbers. I think that Waterford will not prosper as a shopping destination until we get a large shopping centre with units of the typical sort of size demanded by modern, high street retailers. It is the quickest and surest way of solving our problems, and with the Newgate site bought and with permission secured, and with the location being excellent, it seems to be the right project.

That's my opinion anyway.

Psychedelic

jayboi wrote: »

Ah yes Newgate shopping centre!
A terrific story of ignorance and stupidity.

Firstly and I just love this, those of you who can remember when the planning was going through one of the biggest objectors to it was the owner of the army shop on new street he said it would have a serious impact on his business......cut to a over a year later and he’s after bloody moving anyway!!

Then all the local business complaining that it would take away from their businesses? sure if all businesses were to adopt this attitude nothing would ever get built and things would stay the way they are forever, the likes of city square would have never of been built.

Local businesses were supportive of the Newgage Shopping Centre, not sure where you're getting the idea that they were against if from? It was only army shop guy that objected to Newgate (what a cúnt he is for doing that too, now that he has moved to a different premises). I know a lot of local businesses (includes owners of other shopping centres) and they were all in favour of Newgate.

jayboi

The Munster Express:

Appeals were lodged with An Bord Pleanála by Brendan McCann, the Waterford Alliance for Sustainable Inner City Development, Waterford Council of Trade Unions, the Department of the Environment, the Patrick Street & Stephen Street Traders Group, and businessman Noel McDonagh.

and they were only the people who appealed to ABP not who objected in the first place.