Freedom of speech vs incitement/defamation vs morality

eoin5

The Mohammed pic thread started a debate between me and a friend. He was agreeing with some of fufureidas post here .

I think it was mainly the disrespect for other peoples beliefs is what he found wrong. We dont have to draw these pictures and piss people off, why not be nice about it.

From my point of view you'll potentially insult someone no matter what you say or do, you cant cover all the angles.

From a moral standpoint is there a difference between insulting one person or a hundred million? If we say yes then we are lending weight to taboos of the type that helped cover up the stuff the catholic church got away with for years. What about being responsible for your own actions? If you know your statements will cause anger and aggression then you're partly responsible for the actions you cause, but maybe standing up for your belief in free speech and trying to break the taboos is more important in the long run. Who knows? These arent easy questions, but its clear to me that just being 'nice' isnt the obvious choice here. Anyways saying what I think seems the less dishonest way to go and I feel breaking the taboos is very important.

From a legal standpoint if you are found to use speech in a way that for instance harms someones credibility or reputation its deemed illegal. Where do you draw the line here? Would you leave it at a harmful statement thats wrong or would you extend it to personal insults or what? How far should the law impact freedom of speech? For me personal insults are something you take and it mightn't be the intention of the person who makes the statement to insult. What about remarks like fággot, nigger etc? Its still up to the person to take those as an insult, most I'd say shrug them off now as ignorance. I think it would have to go further and become part of harassment to be illegal as such, a single racist remark shouldn't be an offence.

Anyways, anyone have any thoughts on this?

liamw

Ye, you're both completely missing the point. The point isn't to try insult anyones belief. The point is to make a stand for free speech and to show that we will not let our free speech be threatened through acts of violence

eoin5

liamw wrote: »

Ye, you're both completely missing the point. The point isn't to try insult anyones belief. The point is to make a stand for free speech and to show that we will not let our free speech be threatened through acts of violence

But does it matter what the point is to your average pacifist muslim who sees these images and gets insulted? We were debating the issues involved and expanded on it, not so much on the point of the images themselves.

liamw

eoin5 wrote: »

But does it matter what the point is to your average pacificist muslim who sees these images and gets insulted? We were debating the issues involved and expanded on it, not so much on the point of the images themselves.

Of course it does, because if the 'average pacifist muslim' knows what the point is, then he/she shouldn't be insulted by it. Quite the opposite in fact, they should support it

eoin5

liamw wrote: »

Of course it does, because if the 'average pacifist muslim' knows what the point is, then he/she shouldn't be insulted by it. Quite the opposite in fact, they should support it

They dont have to care about why this bunch of internet people seem to want to insult them, why should they? I would think that as they are insulted they would be even less likely to listen.

hiorta

Offence cannot be given, but must be taken.
The 'offended' is always in charge of their feelings on any issue and it is impossible to offend anyone who refuses it.

DeBunny

hiorta wrote: »

Offence cannot be given, but must be taken.
The 'offended' is always in charge of their feelings on any issue and it is impossible to offend anyone who refuses it.

I would agree completely.
Offence usually comes from insecurity. It is very hard to insult some one who is secure with there belief, race, skill, what ever it may be.
It is very hard to insult atheists as we're secure with our beliefs. Another example would be the Irish. We love being Irish. In nearly any other culture Father Ted would have been considered a direct racist attack, but we enjoy it more than anyone.
Freedom of speech is far more important to society than some arbitrary perception of offence. It's their decision to be offended and I'm pretty sure no matter what we do they'll find some way to be offended.
The more credence we give this sense of offence, the more power we give them and the more we erode our own freedoms.

kiffer

eoin5 wrote: »

They dont have to care about why this bunch of internet people seem to want to insult them, why should they? I would think that as they are insulted they would be even less likely to listen.

They don't care that members of their religion have killed people and burnt down buildings...? Plotted to kill more and placed bounties on people with a bonus if they're killed by slashing open their neck like a lamb being butchered...? You know what? I think they do care... They should care... If they don't care about that well then... Fuck'em...
I don't curse lightly but I mean it...

You don't roll over when a bully threatens you.
"Don't make pictures of Mohammad or we will kill you..."
No! How many of us would have ever bothered to make an image of Mohammad if Islam had reacted in a less violent manner full bile and hate?
This would have blown over and no one would have cared... Now there is a huge number of images of Homammad out there ranging from stick figures to part pig part dog having sex with Jesus and while taking it from a donkey... (probably).


We're responding to violence with pictures and mockery... This may not be ideal... but it's better than blood for blood...

eoin5

kiffer wrote: »

They don't care that members of their religion have killed people and burnt down buildings... Plotted to kill more and placed bounties on people with a bonus if they're killed by slashing open their neck like a lamb being butchered... You know what? I think they do care... The should care... If they don't care about that well then... Fuck'em...
I don't curse lightly but I mean it...

You don't roll over when a bully threatens you.
"Don't make pictures of Mohammad or we will kill you..."
No! How many of us would have ever bothered to make an image of Mohammad if Islam had reacted in a less violent manner full bile and hate?
This would have blown over and no one would have cared... Now there is a huge number of images of Homammad out there ranging from stick figures to part pig part dog having sex with Jesus and while taking it from a donkey... (probably).


We're responding to violence with pictures and mockery... This may not be ideal... but it's better than blood for blood...

I'm not big on that kind of duality.

I know they care that members of their religion do crazy stuff, what they might not care about is why someone would produce what they see as offensive material to target them as well. I'm not saying that theres anything wrong with making these pictures, I dont think you even need to justify them in any way, but to suggest that an average muslim should care why you might make these pictures seems arrogant.

ColmDawson

kiffer wrote: »

Now there is a huge number of images of Homammad out there ranging from stick figures to part pig part dog having sex with Jesus and while taking it from a donkey... (probably).

You got my hopes up.:(

eoin5

DeBunny wrote: »

I would agree completely.
Offence usually comes from insecurity. It is very hard to insult some one who is secure with there belief, race, skill, what ever it may be.
It is very hard to insult atheists as we're secure with our beliefs. Another example would be the Irish. We love being Irish. In nearly any other culture Father Ted would have been considered a direct racist attack, but we enjoy it more than anyone.
Freedom of speech is far more important to society than some arbitrary perception of offence. It's their decision to be offended and I'm pretty sure no matter what we do they'll find some way to be offended.
The more credence we give this sense of offence, the more power we give them and the more we erode our own freedoms.

What I find is that my stronger views outweigh my percieved chance of someone getting offended by my statements. Scientology, it literally cracks me up sometimes. I feel strong pity for the people staring at the sun etc. Do you think its better to let them know this than drawing a line somewhere before "I think these beliefs are ridiculous/pityful"?

GLaDOS

ColmDawson wrote: »

You got my hopes up.:(

I've seen some interesting images on 4chan, though not quite up to that level

kiffer

eoin5 wrote: »

I'm not big on that kind of duality.

I know they care that members of their religion do crazy stuff, what they might not care about is why someone would produce what they see as offensive material to target them as well. I'm not saying that theres anything wrong with making these pictures, I dont think you even need to justify them in any way, but to suggest that an average muslim should care why you might make these pictures seems arrogant.

Does it? The images are made as a protest, aimed at the more extreme Muslims... moderate Muslims will be offended too... but maybe you're right... maybe they shouldn't care about what we are protesting about, they could just assume that we are just jerks... and have/need no reason for doing it.
Why should they care why we are doing it... we don't care why their most extreme members are causing us grief...

Moderate Muslims are free to respond in kind to our actions and arrogant assumption that they should care about why we are making these images.
Of course seeing as our response to killing, assault and arson has been stupid pictures... I'm not sure what they could do that would a comparably less violent response...

DeBunny

eoin5 wrote: »

What I find is that my stronger views outweigh my percieved chance of someone getting offended by my statements. Scientology, it literally cracks me up sometimes. I feel strong pity for the people staring at the sun etc. Do you think its better to let them know this than drawing a line somewhere before "I think these beliefs are ridiculous/pityful"?

If the beliefs are harmless then people should be left alone and an effort should be made not to offend. When it comes to people who stare at the sun they should be ridiculed to prevent others from doing so. Personally I have no pity for them. The only pity is that staring at the sun doesn't cause infertility.

As for threats on life and freedom of speech I'm not really worried about causing offence there. Ridicule is a powerful weapon in any fight against fear and the draw mo mo campaign is using it to great effect.
There is a difference between not causing offence out of respect and not causing offence out of fear. The extremists, by their reaction, lost that respect and created fear.

ChocolateSauce

If anyone has ever been offended by the things they've seen in that thread, they can stay offended.

Free speech isn't negotiable, it isn't open to be compromised on.

MrPudding

ChocolateSauce wrote: »

Free speech isn't negotiable, it isn't open to be compromised on.

Unfortunately it is negotiable and is open to compromise. Apart from those two things your sentence is 100% accurate.:D

MrP