Millwall fan gets thumped by police

event

Ush1 wrote: »

So you're speculating, as there is no evidence from this that he was doing any of what you're saying.

ah here, there's no point going on about it so.

i know what happened as iv spoke to people online who were there, in the end that was attacked

you seem to be of the belief that these millwall fans were sitting in their away end, happily minding their own business when these big bad police men came in and attacked them

noodler

Ush1 wrote: »

So I'll disregard number 4. Number 1 isn't a crime nessacerily. 2 and 3 only became anyway evident when the policeman was aggresively shoving him forwards and antogonizing what situation there was. That is all in evidence from the video.

If a policeman was shoving me like that, I might turn around and ask exactly why he's doing it.

If a policeman pushed you for no reason in a public place then you could turn around and ask him what he is doing.

If you are being forced off private property, and refuse to do so, then you will get smack for your troubles as well.

The policeman is well in his rights to push you if you refuse to do what he says in such a situation, if you stop and act aggressively then he has the right to defend himself.

And thats to say nothing of the the destruction on property and assault which took place in the preceding scenes.

Ush1

event wrote: »

ah here, there's no point going on about it so.

i know what happened as iv spoke to people online who were there, in the end that was attacked

you seem to be of the belief that these millwall fans were sitting in their away end, happily minding their own business when these big bad police men came in and attacked them

Ehh no, I didn't say that at all. I'm sure some were. I'd also be sure some were actually minding their own business.

I'm saying what was shown in that video was a policeman using excessive force, nothing more.

Neil3030

The young fella squared up to copper initially and got a push. He then got back on his feet and made a beeline straight for the copper.

Now this is not the kind of situation that affords a whole lot of time for esoteric theorising. The young fella could have had a knife, a bottle or worse. A little flick jab to maintain a level distance was wholly appropriate. You will notice, the copper didn't go after him after the jab, it was all about keeping distance. He also could have clubbed him, but didn't. Fair play on both fronts. It was the least violent form of distance maintenance, after what I am sure were countless vocal pleas to retreat.

Now, add to this, the fact that the young fella was in the front line of a schism of fans who had initiated a barrage of coins, bottles and other missiles on fans in the adjoining section of the ground, where there could have been children, people in wheelchairs or otherwise innocent bystanders who had no hand act or part in any provocation. This does not provide carte blanche for the police to do what they like, however it does add to the context when it comes to split second decision making, i.e., "who is this guy coming straight for me", "what is he capable of" and "what is the best method of response." The size difference is quite irrelevant when concealed weapons are brought into the equation, keep in mind.

Ush1

noodler wrote: »

If a policeman pushed you for no reason in a public place then you could turn around and ask him what he is doing.

If you are being forced off private property, and refuse to do so, then you will get smack for your troubles as well.

The policeman is well in his rights to push you if you refuse to do what he says in such a situation, if you stop and act aggressively then he has the right to defend himself.

And thats to say nothing of the the destruction on property and assault which took place in the preceding scenes.

What are you on about?

A policeman doesn't have a right to smack if you don't move along.

Of course he has a right to defend himself, what he was doing there was being the aggressor. Simply from that video which is the evidence presented here.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Ush, stop acting the bollix, will ya?

I think they were both in the wrong, tbh. Before he is pushed the young fella seems to be abusing the guard, so he got pushed back, might not have been a hard push 'cause he could easily have trripped over a step or tried to make it look worse than it was. He got back up and started mouthing at him, while being held back by his mates so the guard didn't really have to hit him, tbf.

Ush1

Neil3030 wrote: »

The young fella squared up to copper initially and got a push. He then got back on his feet and made a beeline straight for the copper.

Now this is not the kind of situation that affords a whole lot of time for esoteric theorising. The young fella could have had a knife, a bottle or worse. A little flick jab to maintain a level distance was wholly appropriate. You will notice, the copper didn't go after him after the jab, it was all about keeping distance. He also could have clubbed him, but didn't. Fair play on both fronts. It was the least violent form of distance maintenance, after what I am sure were countless vocal pleas to retreat.

Now, add to this, the fact that the young fella was in the front line of a schism of fans who had initiated a barrage of coins, bottles and other missiles on fans in the adjoining section of the ground, where there could have been children, people in wheelchairs or otherwise innocent bystanders who had no hand act or part in any provocation. This does not provide carte blanche for the police to do what they like, however it does add to the context when it comes to split second decision making, i.e., "who is this guy coming straight for me", "what is he capable of" and "what is the best method of response." The size difference is quite irrelevant when concealed weapons are brought into the equation, keep in mind.

If they were that baying for blood why didn't the fellow fans let the young fella run at them? And charge behind him? They held him back and looked like they were trying to calm the officer then.

It looked like the crowd were backing away anyway. Sometimes shoving someone around is enough to provoke a response.

noodler

Ush1 wrote: »

What are you on about?

A policeman doesn't have a right to smack if you don't move along.

Of course he has a right to defend himself, what he was doing there was being the aggressor. Simply from that video which is the evidence presented here.

Neil3030 wrote: »

The young fella squared up to copper initially and got a push. He then got back on his feet and made a beeline straight for the copper.

What part of the video do you not understand?

I'll leave it, going around in circles - you clearly think the police should have no powers in the prevention of assault, destruction of property and threatening/abusive behaviour.

Ush1

noodler wrote: »

What part of the video do you not understand?

I'll leave it, going around in circles - you clearly think the police should have no powers in the prevention of assault, destruction of property and threatening/abusive behaviour.

Understand the video? Ahem.

What part of my posts do you not understand?

Yes I clearly think that. You clearly think police have carte blanche to "give an 'oul smack" when they feel the urge. I mean, he was controlling the crowd after all.

Neil3030

Ush1 wrote: »

If they were that baying for blood why didn't the fellow fans let the young fella run at them? And charge behind him? They held him back and looked like they were trying to calm the officer then.

Well I can only speculate, but I assume it's because they were fully aware that there'd only be one winner! If they had the balls to take on riot police, they wouldn't be reverting to such cowardly deeds as flinging missiles at a defenceless crowd, behind the safety of reinforced barriers.

It looked like the crowd were backing away anyway. Sometimes shoving someone around is enough to provoke a response.

The crowd were, for the most part, backing away. But that little pup wasn't.

Ush1

Neil3030 wrote: »

Well I can only speculate, but I assume it's because they were fully aware that there'd only be one winner! If they had the balls to take on riot police, they wouldn't be reverting to such cowardly deeds as flinging missiles at a defenceless crowd, behind the safety of reinforced barriers.



The crowd were, for the most part, backing away. But that little pup wasn't.

I'm sure plenty were flinging missiles. However the situation looked to be dissapating.

A great way to reignite it is to shove someone around and then hit them, all in self defence of course. If he was a bigger lad the other fans may not have been able to hold him back. I doubt most of the other policemen were doing that and so that one clip made the news.

Weapons accepted, and I am speculating here, I'd hazard he would not have treated a much larger bloke like that.

noodler

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm sure plenty were flinging missiles. However the situation looked to be dissapating.

A great way to reignite it is to shove someone around and then hit them, all in self defence of course. If he was a bigger lad the other fans may not have been able to hold him back. I doubt most of the other policemen were doing that and so that one clip made the news.

Weapons accepted, and I am speculating here, I'd hazard he would not have treated a much larger bloke like that.

Jesus, partial to a bit of speculating yourself.

Ush1

noodler wrote: »

Jesus, partial to a bit of speculating yourself.

Yes, that's why I said I'm speculating at the end. See, right there. Being sure isn't speculating either.

Lamper.sffc

Forget all this pc bull. Lad got what he deserved. It may make him think twice about doing what he did again, maybe preventing some innocent fan/player/ref from getting a bottle/coin in the head.
Im sure the young lad will be fine, bless him

Neil3030

Ush1 wrote: »

I'm sure plenty were flinging missiles. However the situation looked to be dissapating.

Irrelevant. The young lad still squared up the copper. Then charged for him after getting a push.

A great way to reignite it is to shove someone around and then hit them, all in self defence of course. If he was a bigger lad the other fans may not have been able to hold him back. I doubt most of the other policemen were doing that and so that one clip made the news.

See we're getting far too abstract here. Would a bigger lad have felt the need to make such a gesture as square up to a copper? Possibly not. That little scrote was making a stand, trying to be a big man and he was put in his place. It would have been hilarious if the crowd hadn't have held him back because he'd have been in for a shoeing of a lifetime and probably a stint in prison.

Weapons accepted, and I am speculating here, I'd hazard he would not have treated a much larger bloke like that.

Again, would a bigger bloke feel the need to get involved with such an asinine act of machismo? Who knows. This is getting wildly speculative at this stage. I applaud the cop for his actions, you don't. End of.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Ya'd swear he hit him a superman punch or something, 'twas only a little jab.

Ush1

Neil3030 wrote: »

Irrelevant. The young lad still squared up the copper. Then charged for him after getting a push.

So the copper did agitate the situation by shoving him.

Neil3030 wrote: »

See we're getting far too abstract here. Would a bigger lad have felt the need to make such a gesture as square up to a copper? Possibly not. That little scrote was making a stand, trying to be a big man and he was put in his place. It would have been hilarious if the crowd hadn't have held him back because he'd have been in for a shoeing of a lifetime and probably a stint in prison.

Maybe not, but the bigger lad prolly wouldn't have been handled such a way to justify any machismo. He was being held back, fairly cowardly on the policemans part.

Neil3030 wrote: »

Again, would a bigger bloke feel the need to get involved with such an asinine act of machismo? Who knows. This is getting wildly speculative at this stage. I applaud the cop for his actions, you don't. End of.

See above. Yep, pretty much.

Lamper.sffc

baz2009 wrote: »

Ya'd swear he hit him a superman punch or something, 'twas only a little jab.

Maybe the copper is a fan of the man:D

Neil3030

Ush1 wrote: »

So the copper did agitate the situation by shoving him.



Maybe not, but the bigger lad prolly wouldn't have been handled such a way to justify any machismo. He was being held back, fairly cowardly on the policemans part.



See above. Yep, pretty much.

Just out of interest, what would you have done if you had been the copper, and someone squared up to you under such circumstances?

Ush1

Neil3030 wrote: »

Just out of interest, what would you have done if you had been the copper, and someone squared up to you under such circumstances?

Well I certainly wouldn't be shoving someone around when trying to calm a situation.

I honestly couldn't say if he was squaring up. Many things would come into play, who knows what he was saying to the cop or what the cop was saying to him at the time and preceeding it. Ideally you would try to avoid aggrevating a situation like that to that point in the first place. Something that policeman didn't do.

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Lamper.sffc wrote: »

Maybe the copper is a fan of the man:D

Could be.:p
Tbf though, I could have knocked over that fella the way he's standing there with his two feet together, won't get far in the world of karate.:P

dyl10

Beautiful shot.

Delighted, little knacker...

Neil3030

Ush1 wrote: »

Well I certainly wouldn't be shoving someone around when trying to calm a situation.

I honestly couldn't say if he was squaring up. Many things would come into play, who knows what he was saying to the cop or what the cop was saying to him at the time and preceeding it. Ideally you would try to avoid aggrevating a situation like that to that point in the first place. Something that policeman didn't do.

He shoved him back, he only fell because he was on a staircase.

And the only thing his push / punch aggravated was debate.

Hooligans are like dogs, they respond to very primitive rewards and punishments. If you stood there musing over what to do, as you say, they'd have smelled you were a soft-cock and THEN there'd have been trouble.

Ush1

Neil3030 wrote: »

He shoved him back, he only fell because he was on a staircase.

And the only thing his push / punch aggravated was debate.

Hooligans are like dogs, they respond to very primitive rewards and punishments. If you stood there musing over what to do, as you say, they'd have smelled you were a soft-cock and THEN there'd have been trouble.

??

As has been said by other posters aswell as myself, it aggravated the bloke.

Indeed, primitive. Hit things and they will learn.

I'm glad there is only footage of one police officer doing that as the whole thing could have gotten much worse had a few others taken the same approach.

stovelid

Neil3030 wrote: »

Hooligans are like dogs, they respond to very primitive rewards and punishments.

Have you ever even been in a situation where you're being policed from an away fixture here or in England?

antomorro-sei

Copper was definitely in the wrong. Nothing new there though.

ShamoBuc

I believe the nice policeman should have sat the lad down and spoke to him in a non aggressive manner, explaining to him gently the reason for needing him to return to his designated seat. Failing that, he should have whacked the little príck harder.

Neil3030

Ush1 wrote: »

??

As has been said by other posters aswell as myself, it aggravated the bloke.

Indeed, primitive. Hit things and they will learn.

I'm glad there is only footage of one police officer doing that as the whole thing could have gotten much worse had a few others taken the same approach.

You keep talking about this like he singled out some chap sitting there minding his own business and went for him. He shoved a chap that was getting in his face. He then jabbed him back when he was charging for him. You haven't proposed a more viable alternative approach to the scenario.

stovelid wrote: »

Have you ever even been in a situation where you're being policed from an away fixture here or in England?

No. Only home games.

stovelid

Neil3030 wrote: »

No. Only home games.

Policed by a bouncer?

Neil3030

stovelid wrote: »

Policed by a bouncer?

Many's the time.

Ush1

Neil3030 wrote: »

You keep talking about this like he singled out some chap sitting there minding his own business and went for him. He shoved a chap that was getting in his face. He then jabbed him back when he was charging for him. You haven't proposed a more viable alternative approach to the scenario.



No. Only home games.

The video clip starts the cop is shoving him forward aggresively.

The more viable approach is to not do that to aggrevate someone. It was hardly nessacery and what he went on to do.

"Charging for him". You're talking like he's a 2 tonne bull. People were holding him back(easily). In fact, the copper is continuesly coming at him. The guy stands back up and as soon as he does he's struck.

mise

It looks like the policeman is just keeping the chap at a safe distance.. its pretty standard self defense.. especially in a situation were it was not known if there was any kind of weapon being carried. It doesn't look like the policeman was looking for a fight as he doesn't follow up on the push or the punch.

Neil3030

Ush1 wrote: »

The video clip starts the cop is shoving him forward aggresively.

The more viable approach is to not do that to aggrevate someone. It was hardly nessacery and what he went on to do.

"Charging for him". You're talking like he's a 2 tonne bull. People were holding him back(easily). In fact, the copper is continuesly coming at him. The guy stands back up and as soon as he does he's struck.

Haha, you can't propose an alternative to something as "not doing that thing"!

Look mate, I think at this stage we'll never see eye to eye on this.

All I know is that the cops in England are top knotch at dealing with hooligans (sadly, as a result of too much experience) and if this particular cop acted out of line with policy for the given situation you can be sure he'll be reprimanded. I don't for one second think that will happen, as again, I think he was spot on in what he did.

Ush1

Neil3030 wrote: »

Haha, you can't propose an alternative to something as "not doing that thing"!

Look mate, I think at this stage we'll never see eye to eye on this.

All I know is that the cops in England are top knotch at dealing with hooligans (sadly, as a result of too much experience) and if this particular cop acted out of line with policy for the given situation you can be sure he'll be reprimanded. I don't for one second think that will happen, as again, I think he was spot on in what he did.

The alternative is to move people along in a less aggressive way. He was literally reefing him around.

Haha, I agree he may not be reperimanded. Along with many others who get away with such things.

The heavy handed approach always works:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a5aVmhpKc9I

stovelid

There is a small coterie of police that like fighting at football as much as casuals. That cop in that shot looks like one. On the whole, the attitude of the police towards football supporters (ones that actually go to games) is pretty bad, especially so in England which means there are many occasions where innocents get it from the authorities.

The police are supposed to be above dishing it out unless they are baton-charging or defending themselves. A well trained member police should be able to take verbal and even face-to-face stuff like that, even if the lad is a little git.

The punch in that video was not necessary to restore order and he was running the risk of starting a serious riot.

That said, for every Rambo cop, there are great police too. You are in the police to prevent trouble and maintain order at football, not dishing out justice based on your own feelings and dislikes.

It's easy to spot the people that don't go to needle matches regularly. Do you think when unformed thugs like him draw the baton on a crowd, he won't whack you as well?

As for people mentioning the Landsdowne riots: that was another case in point. Many English fans that night got battered for nothing even though they were not with the morons who rioted. Sure it was only Brits though eh? And that sort of thing never happens in the pub anyway.

Gavin "shels"

stovelid wrote: »

There is a small coterie of police that like fighting at football as much as casuals. That cop in that shot looks like one. On the whole, the attitude of the police towards football supporters (ones that actually go to games) is pretty bad, especially so in England which means there are many occasions where innocents get it from the authorities.

The police are supposed to be above dishing it out unless they are baton-charging or defending themselves. A well trained member police should be able to take verbal and even face-to-face stuff like that, even if the lad is a little git.

The punch in that video was not necessary to restore order and he was running the risk of starting a serious riot.

That said, for every Rambo cop, there are great police too. You are in the police to prevent trouble and maintain order at football, not dishing out justice based on your own feelings and dislikes.

It's easy to spot the people that don't go to needle matches regularly. Do you think when unformed thugs like him draw the baton on a crowd, he won't whack you as well?

As for people mentioning the Landsdowne riots: that was another case in point. Many English fans that night got battered for nothing even though they were not with the morons who rioted. Sure it was only Brits though eh? And that sort of thing never happens in the pub anyway.

Top post and spot on, having quickly read this read seems alot of people ar deluded at the fact this is how a portion of police/garda act towards fans.

noodler

Gavin shels wrote: »

Top post and spot on, having quickly read this read seems alot of people ar deluded at the fact this is how a portion of police/garda act towards fans.

How so?

Could you expand on that a bit? I don't think you got your point across.

Wexler12

Love that Benfica video, nothing like a pig getting a good beating

noodler

Wexler12 wrote: »

Love that Benfica video, nothing like a pig getting a good beating

And with that the thread ends.

antomorro-sei

noodler wrote: »

How so?

Could you expand on that a bit? I don't think you got your point across.

The Police/Gardaí ain't as great as a lot here are making out, is what he means I'd say.

Gavin "shels"

noodler wrote: »

How so?

Could you expand on that a bit? I don't think you got your point across.

antomorro-sei wrote: »

The Police/Gardaí ain't as great as a lot here are making out, is what he means I'd say.

Bingo. Some are a power within themselves, or well try to be.

Like look at the OP's video, the Policeman starts it all by milling your man.

Paparazzo

Ush1 wrote: »

For some reason I reckon if that lad was 6 5" and built like a heavyweight boxer, that particular constable might have been a bit slower with his jab.

Of course not, that would be stupid. He'd take out his truncheon and hit him with that

noodler

Gavin shels wrote: »

Bingo. Some are a power within themselves, or well try to be.

Like look at the OP's video, the Policeman starts it all by milling your man.

Oh dear.

Panthro

the oul lamping thugs hah!

argosy2006

Ush1 wrote: »

Sorry but what did the kid do wrong in the first place to warrant being pushed?

supported millwall

Blazer

Neil3030 wrote: »

The young fella squared up to copper initially and got a push. He then got back on his feet and made a beeline straight for the copper.

Now this is not the kind of situation that affords a whole lot of time for esoteric theorising. The young fella could have had a knife, a bottle or worse. A little flick jab to maintain a level distance was wholly appropriate. You will notice, the copper didn't go after him after the jab, it was all about keeping distance. He also could have clubbed him, but didn't. Fair play on both fronts. It was the least violent form of distance maintenance, after what I am sure were countless vocal pleas to retreat.

Now, add to this, the fact that the young fella was in the front line of a schism of fans who had initiated a barrage of coins, bottles and other missiles on fans in the adjoining section of the ground, where there could have been children, people in wheelchairs or otherwise innocent bystanders who had no hand act or part in any provocation. This does not provide carte blanche for the police to do what they like, however it does add to the context when it comes to split second decision making, i.e., "who is this guy coming straight for me", "what is he capable of" and "what is the best method of response." The size difference is quite irrelevant when concealed weapons are brought into the equation, keep in mind.

Best post in here...notice that the cop talked to the other guy rather than chasing the scrote up the stairs. If he was that power hungry as some ppl suggested in here he'd have been lashing out indiscriminately.
If anything most of the cops at the matches in Britain are dead on...don't screw with them, and they won't screw with you.
Anyone that does think this cop was heavy handed I suggest you go to Spain or Italy..then you'll see heavy handedness.

carlop

Berkut wrote: »

Best post in here...notice that the cop talked to the other guy rather than chasing the scrote up the stairs. If he was that power hungry as some ppl suggested in here he'd have been lashing out indiscriminately.
If anything most of the cops at the matches in Britain are dead on...don't screw with them, and they won't screw with you.
Anyone that does think this cop was heavy handed I suggest you go to Spain or Italy..then you'll see heavy handedness.

You'll see heavy handedness with foreign fans, you won't really see it to the same extent domestically.

If anything, the opposite is true. Juventus fans have started fires on more than one occasion this season in the stands and I haven't seen many riot police about to stop it.

What happened with the United fans in Rome would not have happened if you switched United with Milan/Inter etc and had the fans behave in the exact same manner.

eagle eye

Wexler12 wrote: »

Love that Benfica video, nothing like a pig getting a good beating

Good lad.:rolleyes:

Grow up and don't be a complete moron.

stovelid

eagle eye wrote: »

Good lad.:rolleyes:

Grow up and don't be a complete moron.

It seems to be OK to gloat about a kid getting punched in the face for throwing shapes though?

Ush1

stovelid wrote: »

It seems to be OK to gloat about a kid getting punched in the face for throwing shapes though?

Pretty much.

It's great so many know this type of "hooligan", but unfortunately don't know this type of policeman.