Swords League Race 6 19/5/2010

shaungil

So folks what's the plan for tonight? Askmoby says dry and cloudy 14 degrees SSE 10km winds.

Staro moving back to semi scratch maybe with a few others. Down for 4 laps but first race on thsi course was down for 3 and upped to 4 so could change.

Beasty no TT bars allowed btw.

Semi for me hammerfest and see how long we can stay away from Scratch then sit in and see what happens

Beasty

shaungil wrote: »

Beasty no TT bars allowed btw.

Who needs TT bars when I have one of these:



Just have to make sure we have caught Group 1 before deploying it:D

Weather is likely to be similar to last time we did this course, except a bit warmer - watch out for the greenfly;)

RobFowl

Revenge of the fat sprinters tonight after last weeks sop to the skinny climbers ........

Hungrycol

Haven't even seen my bike since last Friday so I suspect my ability to stay a afloat in Group 3 this evening will be a tough one.

jimbo28

dont think the skinny climbers will have much in their legs after last sunday in roundwood!!!!

07Lapierre

shaungil wrote: »

So folks what's the plan for tonight? Askmoby says dry and cloudy 14 degrees SSE 10km winds.

Staro moving back to semi scratch maybe with a few others. Down for 4 laps but first race on thsi course was down for 3 and upped to 4 so could change.

Beasty no TT bars allowed btw.

Semi for me hammerfest and see how long we can stay away from Scratch then sit in and see what happens

Thats my plan! ...

Staro

@shaungil and anybody else meet outside spar at 6.35 and spin over Ardgillan?

shaungil

am tight for time so I'll see you there if I see you there otherwise will follow you over.

sh100

We want to see lots of work up the front of group 4 tonight Staro and no slipping back into bad habits.

Beasty

sh100 - who could that be?

@Hungrycol - after your efforts last week, I think you deserve to take it easy tonight - sit at the back of Group 3, don't do any work (hopefully a few others will join you)

@Staro - similar message - you really do need to take it easy now you are in Group 4

@07Lapierre - you're in Group 2 aren't you? - You better work your bloody socks off tonight:D

Staro

Who is SH100......guess you will be in group 4 tonight as well? Are you leaving @ 630?

Dave11

Lovely evening for it lads!!! Was out this morning for first time since op so back on road. Was great to be out! Should be back to spped for race 11/12 or so! Enjoy this evening...

sh100

Yep. See you at 6:30

Beasty

Staro in the points again, despite his promotion to SS. He was awarded 5th, but is claiming 4th (allegedy;))

We had a large Group 2 again, and like last week most contributed to the work, although this time it was a bit more erratic.

4 x 10km laps with a bit on the end made it 40.7km in total

The first lap we did in about 16m 15s, an average speed of 36.9 kph. The second lap was a bit slower - 16m 40s, average 35.9 kph

Group 3 caught us on the 3rd lap, and the speed picked up a bit - 16m 13s at 37 kph

Group 4/Limit caught us on the final lap, and the speed picked up further - 15m 38s at 38.3 kph

There was a large group (probably 30+) picking up speed at the end. With 600m to go I could see one rider being squeezed into the verge about 3 riders ahead, and perhaps half way down the group and he looked like he was going down (there was a narrow channel at between the road and verge). Everyone slammed on their brakes, and he veered across the road. Miraculously he stayed up, although everyone behind him virtually ground to a halt. I managed to pick up pace again, but was unable to get back in touch with the front part of the group.

When the extra 0.7km is included, my total time was 1hr 6m, at an average speed of 37 kph, which is quite an improvement on last time's average of 35.4 kph, although overall it felt a lot easier. Normalised power was 284w against 288w last time

I'll put more stats in the training log

shaungil

semi scratch with much bigger group probably 12 or so.4 moved up all I think through choice which is good as opposed to be put up. Raam returned alos looking even skinnier.
I wanted a good hard session and worked nice and hard proabaly in the red 85 % of time and doing a lot of hard stints up front. Not what makes a group works efficiently I know but these are training races for me and I want to finish them in a heap and amn't too concerned about placing. Was pointed out that a lot of guys won't go on my wheel as I go thru too hard and I understand this point but again for me is racing
Staro kept a lowish profile but came through a few times and placed and admitted he wasn't sure what the pace was like so took it easy as did sh100. Raam was suprise of the night for me. Not a course to suit him but he did more than his fair share and last lap I really struggled to hold his wheel. I abused him and he said he was finishing after that so he can fill you in.
so despite the stop start and occasional attack by one of the two family members in the group we caught group 2/3. I half heatedly worked my way towards the top but the legs were cramping and wasn't committed rolled in top 15 or so. Good hard race hard workout hopefully one of the lads will put up stats.

mc2000

was in group 2 again, I actually thought we worked quite ok until we were caught by group 3; we worked well to keep the group together, and lads were getting the hang of going up smoothly on the outside without bursting it, and making sure there was someone on their wheel.

I think we worked quite consistently, we would have stayed away working like that if we'd gotten more time over grp3 - we only got 3 mins on them [as opposed to grp1 being 5mins ahead of us] - so I think if we keep group2 working consistently like that, on a night that we get a better time gap, I think that's how we'll stay away - when the group is working with most contributing it keeps the average a lot higher [than if there's lads bursting through, leaving gaps, and then no-one wants to have to start the chain all over again].

That was a very close call coming into the finishing bit, where that lad nearly went down - it's very tight on that road coming in, especially in a bunch like that where lads are trying to move up a bit. From where I was [about 6/8 bike lengths behind him] he bounced off the left verge, and he came swerving right across the road - I don't know how he didn't clip loads of wheel doing that (miracle no.1 :eek:), I even saw sparks coming off his pedals when they must have dragged on the ground - and then he managed to stay upright (miracle no. 2 :eek:).

As a result, behind him, everyone piled on the brakes, and everyone stayed up (miracle no. 3 :eek:), but those behind him lost touch with the group ahead - but the bonus was you get to keep your bones unbroken, and keep most of your skin on your legs!

I've no idea how he stayed up, he's one jammy lad, but he's used up all his jam on that one.:D

Raam

My first race back in a couple of months. I had it in my mind to do 3 out of the 4 laps because I don't want to knacker myself out again by doing too much too soon.

I was in semi-scratch and half the time it was lined out by one person or another. I decided to go out with a bang and hammered it on the back end of the course where we go over the motorway. That's the point where Shaungil complained.

As for going through too strong, perhaps that's the case. However, I think part of the problem is that if someone has the strength to move up when it is lined out other people aren't watching for their chance to jump on and move up in the slipstream. Possibly they are just happy where they are or it never crosses their mind.

RobFowl

Hi MC2000
You're not in Orwell by any chance?

shaungil

@ Raam you're right but I did yell a few times and people did come through.

do you have any stats as apparently the scratch group were hammering too and they didn't catch us. Thinks groups much better this week for that course anyway.

mc2000

@RobFowl - yep - did you enjoy watching [close-up] andrew doing his bit of bmx-ing?

RobFowl

mc2000 wrote: »

@RobFowl - yep - did you enjoy watching [close-up] andrew doing his bit of bmx-ing?

I was dead impressed. Sparks crunching metal sounds and a cat like reflex flip.
Stopped me in my tracks though was 1-2 riders behind trying to come up on the inside...

RobFowl

Wonder if any of the lads racing last night were named by Landis :rolleyes:

Hungrycol

Counted the heads ahead of me over the line and looks like I got 14th place . No cigar but still pleased. The first lap always kills me, HR way up, legs and lungs burning but the more laps I do the more comfortable I become. I started in Groups 3 having not seen a bike since last Friday and was on the lash at a wedding all weekend. I tried to keep up with the up and overs on each lap and more importantly keep in the top half of the group. Some very strong riders in group 3 and even when we caught group 2 some strong rider that group too. Some crazy bike riding also going on IMO e.g. riders going over the other side of the road then sweeping back into the bunch, undertaking on corner apex.

I don't like the Bog of the Ring circuit because the road gets very narrow when all the groups come together in the final few km's. I nearly sent someone into the verge because someone else squeeze by me and left me with zero space and then some gob****e behind me said it was my fault. Then someone else further on (as described in a previous post) hit the roadside gully, managed to stay upright but went careering across the road, how he and those behind him stayed upright is a miracle :eek:. It meant that there was a split in the bunch and those in front had an easier path to race for the line. Next week the 10km TT on the Corduff circuit, I think.

Does anyone else find it hard to get to sleep the night of a race? My mind spins.

shaungil

Does anyone else find it hard to get to sleep the night of a race? My mind spins.[/QUOTE]

Yes. My legs cramp

Raam

I didn't get home till almost 10pm, then I had 55km of Giro to watch. It's hard work being a cycle sport fan.

tawfeeredux

Beasty wrote: »

The first lap we did in about 16m 15s, an average speed of 36.9 kph. The second lap was a bit slower - 16m 40s, average 35.9 kph

Group 3 caught us on the 3rd lap, and the speed picked up a bit - 16m 13s at 37 kph

Group 4/Limit caught us on the final lap, and the speed picked up further - 15m 38s at 38.3 kph

Just as a matter of interest, how hard is it to stay with a group at these sort of speeds?

I can do 29kph average over 40km on my own, I wonder how that would translate to a race situation. I know it's easier to maintain a faster speed in a group but would I falling out the back at those speeds?

07Lapierre

Stats from Group 2..

http://connect.garmin.com/activity/33892348

Billy Whizz

I think that Garmin calorie expenditure is a bit off!

07Lapierre

Billy Whizz wrote: »

I think that Garmin calorie expenditure is a bit off!

I agree...don't really take much notice of the calories readings.

Billy Whizz

07Lapierre wrote: »

I agree...don't really take much notice of the calories readings.

Ah grand, I've never used a Garmin before so was a bit surprised. Are they all like that or is it something to do with the initial setup?

Raam

Billy Whizz wrote: »

Ah grand, I've never used a Garmin before so was a bit surprised. Are they all like that or is it something to do with the initial setup?

I'll check what my one says, but they always seem well odd.

Raam

I have a vid of the finish, uploading it now. I thought at the time that it didn't record, but it did.

RobFowl

Billy Whizz wrote: »

Ah grand, I've never used a Garmin before so was a bit surprised. Are they all like that or is it something to do with the initial setup?

Mine always seems to read excessive calorific output (makes the kebab and chips I got on the way home seem even worse )

blorg

tawfeeredux wrote: »

Just as a matter of interest, how hard is it to stay with a group at these sort of speeds?

I can do 29kph average over 40km on my own, I wonder how that would translate to a race situation. I know it's easier to maintain a faster speed in a group but would I falling out the back at those speeds?

You can't really say based on speed on your own as there is skill involved in staying on a wheel and getting the maximum aero saving. If you are good at this you can use very little energy while if you are not so good at it, it won't be so far off just riding on your own. It is a skill to be learned and you will get better.

Another thing to consider is that racing, even in a bunch, is very jumpy and there will be situations like cornering where you may well have to redline sprint out of it to stay in the group. Again this is something you get better at particularly with regard to your positioning and line to avoid the necessity to sprint. You will have to pick up the pace very quickly in a variety of other situations, for example if there is an attack and it is being chased or if the guy in front of you (or in front of him!) lets a wheel go you have to be ready to sprint around him and close the gap. Bottom line is to do whatever it takes to stay with the group at any particular time and bear in mind that it WILL slow down in a few minutes (probably :pac:) If you fall off the back almost certainly you will not get back on and your race is over... in a handicap you do however have the option of jumping on to a chasing group.

Having said that: if that 29kph over 40km was a flat out time trial style effort then you would probably be falling off the back. If it was a moderate effort you probably wouldn't. Most people find they can pull out a bit extra in a competitive race situation.

Your best bet if you want to get into racing is to join up with a club, get comfortable with riding in a group, and start racing in a club league. Both Swords and my own (Orwell-Tiernans-UCD-Lucan-IRC) club league are well handicapped and you should have the opportunity to improve.

Raam

@Staro: the camera never lies.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CH0VyD89p80

07Lapierre

Billy Whizz wrote: »

Ah grand, I've never used a Garmin before so was a bit surprised. Are they all like that or is it something to do with the initial setup?

In the setup you input if your Male/Female, your Weight in kg's, Max and rest Heart rate. There have been a number of discussions about this here on boards and the general view seems to be that the calorie calculations should not be taken as gospel.

Unfortuinatly the Max Speed, Time, distance, Average speed etc. ARE accurate!

Billy Whizz

Ah right. Looks to be twice as high as it should - that's crazy!

blorg

Billy Whizz wrote: »

Ah right. Looks to be twice as high as it should - that's crazy!

That is generally considered to around the exaggeration all right. It takes into account weight, gradient and speed but not heart rate. Obviously riding in a group would throw it out in a big way. The HR-calorie algorithms are patented but Garmin has licensed them for the 500 which is meant to be a lot more realistic.

@Raam- I would have thought those two riders hard to separate to be honest. It is whoever gets the front of their tyre over the line first and while the guy closer to the camera clearly is going faster and does pass the guy on the inside I don't think it is clear he manages this before the line. It's not first helmet over the line.

Raam

blorg wrote: »

@Raam- I would have thought those two riders hard to separate to be honest. It is whoever gets the front of their tyre over the line first and while the guy closer to the camera clearly is going faster and does pass the guy on the inside I don't think it is clear he manages this before the line. It's not first helmet over the line.

It's lucky I was there to witness it in person

Beasty

07Lapierre wrote: »

In the setup you input if your Male/Female, your Weight in kg's, Max and rest Heart rate. There have been a number of discussions about this here on boards and the general view seems to be that the calorie calculations should not be taken as gospel.

My "Garmin" calories were 2,177 - I always use this measure when contemplating cheesecake

However, kj which is accurate, was 1,003. This is also a rough estimate of calories

07Lapierre wrote: »

Unfortuinatly the Max Speed, Time, distance, Average speed etc. ARE accurate!

What about elevation -we seem to have been about 300' below sea level last night!

Beasty

Hungrycol wrote: »

Next week the 10km TT on the Corduff circuit, I think.

Plan is to go Ballyboughal to old N1, up to 5 Roads, over the flyover, back down old N1 finishing at Blakes Cross - pretty much a flat course. However I understand there are new roadworks on the old N1 which may scupper these plans

Hungrycol wrote: »

Does anyone else find it hard to get to sleep the night of a race? My mind spins.

Last week, when I felt I pushed hard the whole race and we managed to keep away from Group 4/Scratch, yes.
Last night, however, I felt I did not push as hard. We were joined by you guys quicker than last week, and then Group 4 and Scratch arrived, meaning I pretty much sat between the middle and back of the bunch for the last lap (although my overall power output was still relatively high).

I also watched the Tour of California so didn't get to bed until 12.30 this morning (and then was up at 4.30 to catch a flight!), so hopefully I'll catch up some sleep tonight

Beasty

mc2000 wrote: »

was in group 2 again, I actually thought we worked quite ok until we were caught by group 3; we worked well to keep the group together, and lads were getting the hang of going up smoothly on the outside without bursting it, and making sure there was someone on their wheel.

Agreed, but I think we were smoother last week - having said that the full Group only stayed together for half a lap, then split on the hill. I think the five or six of us that remained worked even better, probably because of similar abilities.

I have to admit I have been guilty of pushing too hard early on particularly in the first couple of races this year, stretching the group out too much(and suffered later in each race as a result)

Last night I think a few struggled with the pace a bit, and there was some uncertainty over whether one or two riders were coming through or not (meaning those of us on the inside were sometimes unsure whether to fill the gaps appearing on the outside)

Staro

@Raam still not convinced, Its first wheel !! I demand a stewards enquiry

Cadex

Swords CC 'Bog of the Ring' 40k. Third race of the year. Lovely weather and a big turn-out. I usually cycle out (30k) but was slightly late so drove out. Managed quick warm up (less than 10 mins) before the race. Anyway, on the night I felt good and was working away though this time minding myself a little as I really wanted to finish with the leading bunch as opposed to back between the various groups in 'no-man's land' as I had done the last two times. I felt really strong and on the second last lap we caught the group in front of us and the third group caught us. Then on the last lap, the fourth group (and others?) caught us and it became a very fast and furious thing with about 60 riders in a bunch haring down the road. I was a bit nervous but also 'pumped'. I was sure that I was going to make it, then with 300m to go a guy went just off the road to my left and in his struggle to get back on he veered back in across a guy beside me and myself so there was a bumping and skidding (still in this mass of riders) and somehow we all managed to stay up. I squeezed past to get back on to the group that the near-crash allowed to split and then as the finish went uphill, found other riders coming back towards me. I squirted through a little gap and managed to jump forward to get 6th place (apparently)! I was chuffed, I felt really strong and this was the first time to finish with the leading bunch, never mind in the top 10! Maybe the thing is not to cycle out in future....? Anyway, thanks lads this was the first race really I enjoyed. Well done as usual to the organisers.
Stats (not sure about these):
Dist: 42.164km, Ave: 35.4km/h, Max: 53.6km/h, Time: 1:07 (ish)

Raam

@Cadex: you are top of the DWCC TT league
http://www.dublinwheelers.com/viewpage.php?page_id=30

Cadex

Eh?
Mad! Got a text from Andraes as well. I must have dropped a fiver to the handicapper or something......That was not my first time up Howth but it was my first time as a TT. I knew what to expect from the hill but not from the event (or myself for that matter). I was happy enough with my actual time but never thought I get so nicely handicapped. Deadly!