3 rejects IoffL assertions on NBS

bealtine

http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/3irelandbroadband001/category/1091

Mobile firm 3 has strongly rejected criticism from pressure group Ireland Offline in relation to the National Broadband System (NBS).

Ireland Offline has accused 3 of "silently" announcing the dropping of the data allowance for Pay Monthly Broadband customers from 15GB a month of data to 10GB and claimed 3's network could not handle the data throughput required by the NBS.

In a statement to Insideireland.ie, 3 denied the claims pointing out that, as per EU regulations, the company had placed announcements in the Irish Examiner and Irish Daily Mail on 7 May and had posted a notice on www.three.ie/customernotifications on the same day.

In relation to the reduction of data allowance the company said that "3 examined the customer base's current usage and although a small percentage would exceed the 10GB allowance (c.6%) the majority of customers don’t come near the new data cap and in fact average 3GB."

Ireland Offline also claimed that the reduction in data allowance "clearly demonstrates that the 3 Ireland network is not capable of handling the data throughput required for the NBS and highlights in general the unsuitability of any 3G network to handle the large volumes of data required for such a network to be considered as real broadband."

3 has described the claim as being "completely untrue".

"As recently as 13 May last 3, Ireland’s largest high speed network, announced a world-first network advancement on the future of mobile broadband in Ireland. 3 announced that it has switched on the world’s first commercial voice and data I-HSPA (Internet High Speed Packet Access) network, making Ireland the first global market to benefit from this new cutting-edge technology from Nokia Siemens Networks (NSN).

"The launch of I-HSPA on the 3 network follows a successful trial by Nokia Siemens Networks of the technology in Ireland which is being used as a model to guide the launch of the technology in ten markets worldwide through a range of carriers.

"This development underlines 3’s position as the leader in mobile broadband and Ireland’s position as a leader in the smart economy. The announcement comes as 3 plans to trial 21 Mbps and 42 Mbps services in Q4 this year."

3 said the deployment of I-HSPA is a significant part of the global standard for bringing Long Term Evolution (LTE) and its associated high-quality coverage and potential for speeds of up to 50MB+ to urban and rural areas in Ireland.

"The upgrade will allow users to engage in high-definition video conferencing and online gaming on the 3 network. To date 3 has invested €600m on its network including €50m upgrading its network to I-HSPA and to ensure it is LTE-ready. 3 has chosen to adopt I-HSPA because it has the clearest roadmap for delivering LTE."

Ireland Offline, a voluntary lobby group campaigning for broadband internet access services in Ireland, also called for the NBS to be scrapped with the €80m of public and EU money set aside for it to be spent on "something more suitable to the goal of delivering broadband to those that are currently not served by broadband."

3 Ireland said however that wireless technology is the only way that remote rural areas throughout Ireland can realistically receive broadband due to varied topography.

"The technology described above was developed in Scandinavia where there is obviously vast tracts of rural areas that will never see fibre optic cable," the company added.

Ireland Offline claimed as well that other NBS road map events such as an increase in minimum speeds for NBS users to 1.6mbits on 1 July 2010 and completion of the roll out to the intended 388 masts (or their replacements) by the end of September 2010, will not be met.

3 Ireland said however that all their targets are on course and will be met, "in fact we have just over 67% of the electoral districts now live, ie 689 out of 1028 electoral districts in the NBS."

Ireland Offline stated that that fewer than half of the 160 new masts to be installed under the NBS are in place.

3 said that the statement was "somewhat misleading."

"There are 389 sites needed to complete the NBS and this figure is made up of existing sites around the country where we co-locate our infrastructure and new greenfield sites. Out of the 389 sites 280 of them are already integrated. Out of the 280 integrated sites 115 of these were new greenfield sites," 3 said.

Ireland Offline also said that in Kerry only two masts have received permission out of the ten applied for.

3 said the main challenge in Kerry is the 1km proximity rule where no masts are allowed within a 1km distance of an inhabited homestead.

"To be fair to Kerry Co Council, they have assisted us greatly in this regards by turning down planning permission for the applications immediately as soon as they see them. This tactic doesn’t allow for any delay in the planning process for us as we can then take it straight to appeal with An Bord Pleanála who have never turned down any such application on the proximity rule.

"There are nine masts left to roll out in Co Kerry, six of these were refused by Kerry Co Co and were overturned on appeal by An Bord Pleanála and we await their decision on three more. One extra application was turned down by the Bord due to the proximity to some ancient Bronze Age rock art," 3 added.

watty

My thoughts on iHSPA+
http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65925923&postcount=7761

If 3's claims were investigated by a really independent expert...

Also OF COURSE most people don't use the full cap. On most networks 10% to 20% of people will consume 80% to 90% of traffic if there is no cap. On a limited capacity high contention network with no contention control via fixed installs and no speed packages the ONLY way to ensure performance for the majority is a Cap. You can calculate what the cap should be and it should be rolling 30 days, not monthly. For 3G with any decent takeup and to get anywhere near an average 3Mbps busy hour speed the contention needs to be lowered by having maybe a 2Gbyte or less Cap. I'd need to do exact sums.

The 1Km rule means that 7Mbps is nearly impossible, never mind 42Mbps.

You can take this table knock out all speeds at less than half cell radius:

SNR	bps/hz 	Mbps 	QAM 	FEC  Codes 	Metres 	Mbps
-12     0.0313 	0.1565 	QPSK 	1/4 	1 	2000 	0.12
-9 	0.0626 	0.313 	QPSK 	2/4 	1 	1414 	0.24
-6 	0.125 	0.625 	16QAM 	2/4 	1 	1000 	0.48
-3 	0.25 	1.25 	QPSK 	2/4 	5 	707 	1.2
0 	0.5 	2.5 	16QAM 	2/4 	5 	500 	2.4
3 	1 	5.0 	16QAM 	4/4 	5 	353 	4.8
6 	1.5 	7.5 	16QAM 	3/4 	10 	250 	7.2
12 	3.5 	17.5 	64QAM 	3/4 	15 	177 	16
18 	4.8 	24 	64QAM 	4/4 	15 	125 	21

If we are generous and allow 700m from mast to 2km distance nominal Cell Edge (Kerry):

SNR	bps/hz 	Mbps 	QAM 	FEC  Codes 	Metres 	Mbps
-12     0.0313 	0.1565 	QPSK 	1/4 	1 	2000 	0.12
-9 	0.0626 	0.313 	QPSK 	2/4 	1 	1414 	0.24
-6 	0.125 	0.625 	16QAM 	2/4 	1 	1000 	0.48
-3 	0.25 	1.25 	QPSK 	2/4 	5 	707 	1.2

If we allow two channels, i.e. iHSPA+ (but 3 only have three channels for whole country!)

SNR	bps/hz 	Mbps 	QAM 	FEC  Codes 	Metres 	Mbps
-12     0.0313 	0.1565 	QPSK 	1/4 	1 	2000 	0.24
-9 	0.0626 	0.313 	QPSK 	2/4 	1 	1414 	0.48
-6 	0.125 	0.625 	16QAM 	2/4 	1 	1000 	0.96
-3 	0.25 	1.25 	QPSK 	2/4 	5 	707 	2.4

using two channels reduces your cell capacity to 1/3rd (33%).

You can't get something for nothing, iHSPA+ trades capacity for single user speed. Even then the 42Mps is only for two thirds of entire cell capacity, less than 125m from mast and only one person outdoors.

All those distances are outdoors. Indoor you get about 1/4 to 1/16th signal (like twice to four times distance) unless you are at a window with LOS to the mast.

If users are EVENLY distributed right up to a Mast (i.e. a Mast in a village or roadside, not hill 1km away) then if there is ONE user only connected this is the speed possible. This is basic physics and mathematics.


There is an inconvenient theory called Shannon-Hartley. It's never been disproved and all tests confirm it.
The speed on ANY system depends on the bandwidth and the Signal to noise ratio.
The Inverse Square law means that at twice the distance the Signal is 1/4, the maximum speed possible is thus also 1/4.

Also because it's CDMA and not OFDMA or TDMA, as the mast is loaded with more users the capacity drops and cell shrinks in size. There is no fixed cell edge

Google CDMA cell breathing
http://searchmobilecomputing.techtarget.com/definition/cell-breathing


Yes iHSPA and iHSPA+ have theoretical top speeds of 21Mbps and 42MBps. These are achievable possibly in less than 0.3% of situations unless you have 500m rural cells and maybe 9 channels. No-one in Ireland has more than three FDD 3G 5Mhz channels. iHSPA does reduce latency (though still poor compared to Cable, DSl, Fibre). Real cell throughput isn't much changed from a 7.2Mbps cell, it's still about 2Mbps to 1Mbps with typical usage, shared between all the connected users.

Can we stop with the marketing smoke and mirrors and independently audited Average (median) "busy hour" speeds including only masts with an economical number of users that are at least 9 months in full operation, for first months and last current 3 months of operation?

watty

iHSPA may use common backend plant with LTE.

But can we stop the periodic LTE hints, 3?
You don't have an LTE licence.
Your bases and Modems are on 3G W-CDMA frequency.

LTE uses OFDM in downlink. iHSPA uses W-CDMA
Unloaded (one user) LTE in 5MHz is NO BETTER than 7Mbps HSPA.
Loaded with 20 users LTE might be 4x better than iHSPA. You get 200kbps instead of 50kbps.

For LTE to be really useful you need a lower frequency than 3G/iHSPA's 2100MHz and you need a 20MHz FDD channels instead of current 5MHz. Obviously with 20MHz FDD at 2100MHz LTE would be better. But switching 2100MHz from 3G to 4G could be 10 years away.

drunkmonkey

bealtine wrote: »

Mobile firm 3 has strongly rejected criticism from pressure group Ireland Offline in relation to the National Broadband System (NBS).

Ireland Offline has accused 3 of "silently" announcing the dropping of the data allowance for Pay Monthly Broadband customers from 15GB a month of data to 10GB and claimed 3's network could not handle the data throughput required by the NBS.

Would you blame them your first statement is wrong, you'r accusing them of dropping the data allowance as their network can't handle it. That's not correct. Their changing their data plans and bringing out new data plans that is all. This does not affect NBS customers.

NBS customers are getting their data increased from 15GB to 25GB from the 1st of July.

bealtine

drunkmonkey wrote: »

NBS customers are getting their data increased from 15GB to 25GB from the 1st of July.

Why not for everybody?

And you have some inside knowledge that 3 obviously don't have because if your assertion was true wouldn't 3 have just said so?

watty

drunkmonkey wrote: »

NBS customers are getting their data increased from 15GB to 25GB from the 1st of July.

Metro is Fixed wireless and thus about x16 more efficient in the same Mhz. Also in some places it has almost 56MHz of Bandwidth (because it's a 10.5GHz LOS system)

That's over 100x the capacity of 3G. It has no cell breathing and because it's fixed outdoor aerials everyone can have same speed.

It has a typical 30Gbyte cap.

I predict that in NBS areas with an economic number of 3G data customers the speed at busy hour will halve at least if 3 increase cap to 25Gbyte.

To ensure reasonable performance they need about 2Gbyte of Cap (on a rolling 30 day basis). They only have 5MHz per sector typically and 15MHz FDD nationally.

How many:
1) Ordinary 3G phone users, customers of 3 are making calls in NBS areas typically (Erlangs?)
2) How many 3G modems on 3 are in NBS areas
3) How many 3 data customers are on ordinary 3 pay monthly data or 3 PAYG vs an actual written NBS contract they signed?

What happens after one year (automatically) to a hypothetical NBS contract?

Note that 3 are in violation of their 3G licence if Non-NBS customers can't use their 3 phones or modems in NBS areas and if modem users subscribing in an NBS area are not permitted to use their modem in non-NBS areas.

3's agreement with Dept in NBS contract doesn't IMO affect or enhance or modify 3's 3G licence conditions. 3's licence is Nationwide and though they can sell different packages, as it's a nationwide Mobile licence phone calls must have priority and they can't discriminate geographically against or for customers.

drunkmonkey

bealtine wrote: »

Why not for everybody?

And you have some inside knowledge that 3 obviously don't have because if your assertion was true wouldn't 3 have just said so?

They did, it was notified to all 3 stores and stockists, it might have been worth checking in with one of them before drafting the letter.

As for why not for everybody, 3 have announced nothing only a change in the T's & C's, it's quite possible they'll introduce 25GB or higher price plan for ordinary customers once they actually release new plans but nobody knows yet because nothing has been released.

bealtine

drunkmonkey wrote: »

They did, it was notified to all 3 stores and stockists, it might have been worth checking in with one of them before drafting the letter.

As for why not for everybody, 3 have announced nothing only a change in the T's & C's, it's quite possible they'll introduce 25GB or higher price plan for ordinary customers once they actually release new plans but nobody knows yet because nothing has been released.

So why not all the secrecy? Why not just come right out and say it?
If your assertion is true and we only have this as any form of official statement:

http://www.three.ie/terms/customer_notification.htm

Where exactly does it say they are upping their data allowances?

Insinuation and innuendo are not facts sorry...

clohamon

bealtine wrote: »

http://www.insideireland.ie/index.cfm/section/news/ext/3irelandbroadband001/category/1091


"To be fair to Kerry Co Council, they have assisted us greatly in this regards by turning down planning permission for the applications immediately as soon as they see them. This tactic doesn’t allow for any delay in the planning process for us as we can then take it straight to appeal with An Bord Pleanála who have never turned down any such application on the proximity rule.

Kerry county council have not significantly accelerated the refusals to H3GI

Average decision time for grant: 53 days
Average decision time for refusal: 51 days

An appeal to An Bord Pleanala takes a minimum of 126 days. To imply that this is not a delay is misleading.

"There are nine masts left to roll out in Co Kerry, six of these were refused by Kerry Co Co and were overturned on appeal by An Bord Pleanála and we await their decision on three more. One extra application was turned down by the Bord due to the proximity to some ancient Bronze Age rock art," 3 added.

They are only awaiting a decision on one. Two were withdrawn.

They did however make a recent application to Kerry CoCo on March 3rd. It was refused at the end of last month. If the don't waste too much more time mounting their appeal it should be out of An Bord Pleanala towards the end of September which should give them about 8 days to finish the site.

Sponge Bob

clohamon wrote: »

An appeal to An Bord Pleanala takes a minimum of 126 days. To imply that this is not a delay is misleading.

And in Galway An Bord B ordered a takedownof the mast 3 uses in Spiddal which serves ( I use the phrase advisedly ) the eastern fringe of a live NBS ED further west. Twill be a hard ask to replace that by september.

blueball

Hi guys,

I am new to this posting thing although I have been a visitor to Boards for a number of years. Please bear with me if I go wrong.
I am located in the back end of tipperary. We applied for the NBS and the guy came but could not get a consistant signal on the dongle thing so he said "sorry - no go ". My wife than asked him what about the satellite option and he mumbled something like - "we're not doing that any more ". or words to that effect. The bottom line is it was dongle or nothing.
If they are not offering satellite in areas where they cannot get signal are they not in breach of their contract with the NBS ?
If they are doing this what sanctions can the Department take against them ?
have they deliberately decided to forego the satellite option and pay the fines ? If so what will the fines be ?
I assume that I will now have to go to a satellite provider and pay the full whack for satellite broadband ? (I have already tried wireless etc. to no avail )
Why can they get away with doing something like this ?

Sponge Bob

blueball wrote: »

If they are not offering satellite in areas where they cannot get signal are they not in breach of their contract with the NBS ?

In a nutshell Yes.

If an area ( electoral district) is live )green on map) they must provide 100% of premises who request a service with either Dongle/ Repeater or Satellite. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss anything specific. Click my username top left and then "private message" which is what PM means.

drunkmonkey

And if you want to get it sorted without the drama pm me, I'll do my best to make sure you get looked after asap!

watty

3's proposed Satellite platform doesn't exist. It's possible their existing supplier's feeds is out of capacity.

cowboy.1981

blueball wrote: »

I am located in the back end of tipperary. We applied for the NBS and the guy came but could not get a consistant signal on the dongle thing so he said "sorry - no go ". My wife than asked him what about the satellite option and he mumbled something like - "we're not doing that any more ". or words to that effect. The bottom line is it was dongle or nothing.
If they are not offering satellite in areas where they cannot get signal are they not in breach of their contract with the NBS ?
If they are doing this what sanctions can the Department take against them ?
have they deliberately decided to forego the satellite option and pay the fines ? If so what will the fines be ?
I assume that I will now have to go to a satellite provider and pay the full whack for satellite broadband ? (I have already tried wireless etc. to no avail )
Why can they get away with doing something like this ?

Blueball - thanks for highlighting another case where 3 are clearly breaching their contractual commitments.

If you are in an NBS area, the Govt have contracted 3 to provide a mininum specification of "always-on" internet with 1.2Mbps down, 200kbps up, and 120ms latency. Since you are clearly not getting this 24/7, you need to keep escalating until they are forced to provide you with the Satellite alternative. The satellite is not dependent on 3's mobile network and appears to work ok, so far. However, the latency is much higher, and they don't like giving it to customers because they lose money on it (As Watty points out, the planned Satellite never got launched, and they were forced to use another one).

You need to escalate to the relevant Government authorities who are paying taxpayers money to 3 for this debacle. (€80 Million of EU/Irish tax-payers money)

Others on Boards who have escalated have found this route successful. Below is the list of people you need to escalate to. If you only have time to escalate to one area, I would contact the Dept. of Communications. They seem to be able to kick 3 into action very quickly, although this is no guarantee of a satisfactory outcome.
Please escalate immediately, you have persevered long enough - don't let 3 get away with this shoddy service. You should be able to force them to give you the satellite option.

Here is the list of people you should escalate to,

• Telephone the Dept of Communications(DCENR) on (01)6782726, or (01)678 2070. Ask to speak directly to someone who is responsible for the National Broadband Scheme. Explain to them that you have persevered with 3 for over 6 months, and you have never had a decent service as specified in the NBS specifications. Explain that you have exhausted every means of escalation at 3 and failed to get the problems fixed. If you don't get a satisfactory response escalate to a senior Civil Servant - their contact numbers are all on this page. http://www.dcenr.gov.ie/Contact/Contact+Communications/
• Email Minister Eamon Ryan, <eamon.ryan@oireachtas.ie> to inform him of your experiences.
• ComReg (you will need a complaint ref number from 3, if they ever respond to you) http://www.askcomreg.ie/tell_us/comp...ries.51.LE.asp
• Patrick Kidney in Analysy Mason, the Consultants who are responsible for monitoring the performance of 3 under the NBS contract, <patrick.kidney@analysysmason.com>
• Robert Finnegan, CEO 3 Ireland, 3rd Floor
  1 Clarendon Row, Dublin 2.
• The Office of the Comptroller & Auditor General, who is responsible for ensuring that public funds are not misappropriated <samantha_lee@audgen.irlgov.ie>
• Your local Public Representatives (Ministers, Councillors)
• Your local media (radio, newspapers)

It is possible that they are choosing to avoid providing certain areas with coverage. However, if this is the case, they should be forced to de-select these from their coverage maps, and return the subsidy plus any fines that are due. The bottom line is that the breaches of contract are not being policed. If NBS victims like yourself keep escalating, it may eventually embarass the Govt into action.

Don't give up, and thanks for sharing your problems on Boards. It helps others realise that they are not alone, when they read posts like yours.

watty

The NBS requires an Always On connection.

3 is only a Mobile Phone operator. It's a form of dialup.

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=66029903&postcount=7794

Sponge Bob

I have a sneaking suspicion that 3 are now effectively BARRED from offering their satellite service and by none other than Eutelsat themselves I wonder if anybody informed the minister ??

watty

In theory they should be running out of capacity.

Unless the Schools with vsat are all switched to Broadband. But Digiweb has that capacity. Smart and Digiweb have in the past switched schools from VSAT to terrestrial BB as soon as available. 3G no matter what alphabet soup is applied doesn't meet the relaxed spec for Wireless Broadband vs DSL for schools.

But then on paper 3G (no matter what alphabet soup is applied, e.g. iHSPA+) can't meet 120ms + 1.2Mbps min + contention + always on spec for NBS either.