Building a Mosque close to ground zero

Nodin

Hezekiah Shrilling Watercolor wrote: »

That's 'muslim-bashing' is it?

Taking the verses out of context, along with trying to proclaim Islam as uniquely violent........

Take it - for the sake of argument - that his interpretation of the Koran is correct. Where then, is the infidel killing and general mayhem thats supposed to be the belief and duty of every muslim...?

MagicMarker

Nodin wrote: »

Taking the verses out of context, along with trying to proclaim Islam as uniquely violent........

Take it - for the sake of argument - that his interpretation of the Koran is correct. Where then, is the infidel killing and general mayhem thats supposed to be the belief and duty of every muslim...?

Millions of Muslims don't believe he's taking the verses out of context. Plus he never said EVERY muslim, I don't know why you keep insinuating that he did?

Nodin

MagicMarker wrote: »

I'm really trying to see how from that article, you've come to the conclusion that he's assuming all Muslims are linked to 9/11? Or that violence is unique to Islam, or even that it's associated with the majority of Muslims? I'm just not seeing it.

I'm beginning to wonder if you read it...... .......

At this point in human history, Islam simply is different from other faiths.

And honest reasoning declares that there is much that is objectionable—and, frankly, terrifying—about the religion of Islam and about the state of discourse among Muslims living in the West

The first thing that all honest students of Islam must admit is that it is not absolutely clear where members of al Qaeda, the Taliban, al-Shabab, Lashkar-e-Taiba, Hamas, and other Muslim terrorist groups have misconstrued their religious obligations. If they are “extremists” who have deformed an ancient faith into a death cult, they haven’t deformed it by much.

Thus, when Allah commands his followers to slay infidels wherever they find them, until Islam reigns supreme (2:191-193; 4:76; 8:39; 9:123; 47:4; 66:9)—only to emphasize that such violent conquest is obligatory, as unpleasant as that might seem (2:216), and that death in jihad is actually the best thing that can happen to a person, given the rewards that martyrs receive in Paradise (3:140-171; 4:74; 47:5-6)—He means just that. And, being the creator of the universe, his words were meant to guide Muslims for all time.

And it is not a form of bigotry or racism to observe that the specific tenets of the faith pose a special threat to civil society.

The claim that the events of September 11, 2001, had “nothing to do with Islam” is an abject and destabilizing lie.

Nodin

MagicMarker wrote: »

Millions of Muslims don't believe he's taking the verses out of context. Plus he never said EVERY muslim, I don't know why you keep insinuating that he did?

You might try re-reading that post.....

MagicMarker

Nodin wrote: »

I'm beginning to wonder if you read it...... .......

Nodin wrote: »

You might try re-reading that post.....

lol, you might want to take your own advice.

Nodin

MagicMarker wrote: »

lol, you might want to take your own advice.

I'm in awe of your new analysis.



No, really.

Turtwig

Nodin wrote: »

...because were you to read that article, you'd be almost under the impression that (a) violence was unique to Islam (b) violence was associated with the majority of muslims. It isn't.

I've read the article and I can't help but find it bizarre how you got that impression from it.

Yes, it is true that the Old Testament contains even greater barbarism—but there are obvious historical and theological reasons why it inspires far less Jewish and Christian violence today.

Seems to me like someone has just expressed an opinion of violence being contained in Christianity too.

This murder of 3,000 innocents was viewed as a victory for the One True Faith by millions of Muslims throughout the world (even, idiotically, by those who think it was perpetrated by the Mossad)

This statement is actually true. They represent a minority proportion of Islam, but these people do exist.

Where in the article does he say that the majority is focused on violence?


(Btw, I'm inclined to disagree with his article, but I'm just perplexed at your understanding and representation of it. )

wes

A great article from Salon, that details how the "outrage" was manufactured by a fringe group, and is now being embraced by the main stream right wing nutjobs:

How the "ground zero mosque" fear mongering began

desertcircus

buzzdroid wrote: »

"despite the fact that anti-Western jihad realistically dates from Sayyid Qutb's theories in the 1950s."


that is a staggering level of ignorance of history.. to such an extent that I dare not comment beyond one hint.

The Battle of Tours.


Go look it up.

So you really can't tell the difference between a war of conquest fought thirteen hundred years ago and a terrorist campaign inspired by Western liberalism and the treatment of Palestine?

Turtwig

wes wrote: »

A great article from Salon, that details how the "outrage" was manufactured by a fringe group, and is now being embraced by the main stream right wing nutjobs:

How the "ground zero mosque" fear mongering began

^^

That's despicable. Distortion of truth to pursue agendas is something I'm very much used to but each time it happens and the mainstream media falls hook line and sinker for it a little part of me dies inside.

Pauleta

Caoimhín wrote: »

Could you explain why exactly?

Can you imagine how happy the people who planned the attack would be when they found this out. They will see this as a victory.

Forest Master wrote: »

Notice how Pauleta hasn't had the guts to come back & defend his/her retarded comment.

I do have a life away from this forum

Turtwig

Pauleta wrote: »

Can you imagine how happy the people who planned the attack would be when they found this out. They will see this as a victory.

Oh no doubt they will and they will post internet videos to mainstream media boasting it. They're disillusioned though (that, or more cynically producing proganda in attempt to divide a society). This will be a victory for western values and liberties.* Censoring the building of the a mosque is exactly the type of backward progression that these extremists are looking for.



*In reality though it shouldn't even be a victory or topic for either side.

Ash.J.Williams

amacachi wrote: »

Didn't Frankie Boyle suggest this a few years back?

Yeah a mosque or a runway!

Pauleta

Malty_T wrote: »

Oh no doubt they will and they will post internet videos to mainstream media boasting it. They're disillusioned though (that, or more cynically producing proganda in attempt to divide a society). This will be a victory for western values and liberties.* Censoring the building of the a mosque is exactly the type of backward progression that these extremists are looking for.



*In reality though it shouldn't even be a victory or topic for either side.

You make a good point in fairness

Overheal

Malty_T wrote:

backward progression

...Regression?

Nodin

Malty_T wrote: »

I've read the article and I can't help but find it bizarre how you got that impression from it.



Seems to me like someone has just expressed an opinion of violence being contained in Christianity too.



This statement is actually true. They represent a minority proportion of Islam, but these people do exist.

Where in the article does he say that the majority is focused on violence?


(Btw, I'm inclined to disagree with his article, but I'm just perplexed at your understanding and representation of it. )

Fairly evident from these two, taken together...

And it is not a form of bigotry or racism to observe that the specific tenets of the faith pose a special threat to civil society. Quote:

The claim that the events of September 11, 2001, had “nothing to do with Islam” is an abject and destabilizing lie.

Nodin

Pauleta wrote: »

I do have a life away from this forum

Yep. But now you're back you still haven't defended said comment.....

Jeboa Safari

Is there any truth about how someone wants to build a gay bar for muslims beside the mosque?

Donkey Oaty

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Is there any truth about how someone wants to build a gay bar for muslims beside the mosque?

That would be Hugh Betcha of the Canada Free Press.

No.

Edit: Although I see that Greg Gutfield of Fox News wants to do the same, and that he is "dead serious on this one" so maybe it's true!

fontanalis

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

That would be Hugh Betcha of the Canada Free Press.

No.

Edit: Although I see that Greg Gutfield of Fox News wants to do the same, and that he is "dead serious on this one" so maybe it's true!

Like there are no gay bars in that area already!

Donkey Oaty

fontanalis wrote: »

Like there are no gay bars in that area already!

This one goes a bit further.

Gutfeld plans to cater specifically to Muslims, by serving 72 virgin drinks. The potential names for the gay bar include Ji-Hot, Ram-a-Dan, You Meccan Me Hot, and Suspicious Package.

Source: Newsoxy.com

Terry

Jeboa Safari wrote: »

Is there any truth about how someone wants to build a gay bar for muslims beside the mosque?

http://boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2055996555

g5fd6ow0hseima

Nodin wrote: »

Yep. But now you're back you still haven't defended said comment.....

Nodin, id like to see what to make of this article. Unlike Harris, the author makes the distinction between good muslim and bad muslim.

http://bit.ly/cBwt41

Nodin

Hezekiah Shrilling Watercolor wrote: »

Nodin, id like to see what to make of this article. Unlike Harris, the author makes the distinction between good muslim and bad muslim.

http://bit.ly/cBwt41

It's perfectly fair enough. The Wahabi school is a regressive influence and theres no denying it.

She does point out that the community center and mosque are being led by an entirely different mindset, IMO.

fayrae

Originally Posted by starbelgrade
I don't think they should build the Mosque near Ground Zero. I think they should build the thing on Ground Zero.

How sensitive of you! :rolleyes: Like there is no other place to build this Mosque/Islamic Center? Even Muslims, those who dare to speak out, are saying some Muslims, including those proposing this project, will see this as a Muslim victory over the US.

Nodin

fayrae wrote: »

How sensitive of you! :rolleyes: Like there is no other place to build this Mosque/Islamic Center? Even Muslims, those who dare to speak out, are saying some Muslims, including those proposing this project, will see this as a Muslim victory over the US.

A Sufi is in league with an extremist Wahabi offshoot?

A few links to back that accusation up, if you would.

fayrae

Originally Posted by starbelgrade
I don't think they should build the Mosque near Ground Zero. I think they should build the thing on Ground Zero.

How sensitive of you! :rolleyes: Like there is no other place to build this Mosque/Islamic Center? Even Muslims, those who dare to speak out, are saying some Muslims, including those proposing this project, will see this as victory for Islamic terrorists groups.

LukeQuietus

It is Allah's plan. DEATH TO THE INFIDELS!!!!

Nodin

fayrae wrote: »

How sensitive of you! :rolleyes: Like there is no other place to build this Mosque/Islamic Center? Even Muslims, those who dare to speak out, are saying some Muslims, including those proposing this project, will see this as victory for Islamic terrorists groups.

Why are you posting that again....?

And wheres those links....?

Turtwig

LukeQuietus wrote: »

It is Allah's plan. DEATH TO THE INFIDELS!!!!

The problem here (as outlined by succinctly by Harris) is that it is not entirely clear which plan is actually Allah's. One plan opposed the attacked on 9/11 another embraced it. Both plans were inspired by the one book, the only difference is the interpretation of that text. (Naturally, both plans say they have nothing to do with the other misguided one.) So who's death, exactly, are wishing. Those who abhor the 9/11 atrocities or those who welcome them?

Terry

fayrae wrote: »

How sensitive of you! :rolleyes: Like there is no other place to build this Mosque/Islamic Center? Even Muslims, those who dare to speak out, are saying some Muslims, including those proposing this project, will see this as victory for Islamic terrorists groups.

Just remember that not everything you read on the internet is serious.
This forum in particular has people who will take the piss. Don't take everything seriously.

fayrae

"I am a Christian, and I am a devout Christian. I believe in the redemptive death and resurrection of Jesus Christ. I believe that that faith gives me a path to be cleansed of sin and have eternal life. But most importantly, I believe in the example that Jesus set by feeding the hungry and healing the sick and always prioritizing the least of these over the powerful." (Barack Obama Christianity Today, January 2008)

Barack and his wife, Michelle, live on Chicago's south side with their two daughters Malia, age 9 and Sasha, age 6. Michelle Obama, born in 1964, earned her bachelor's degree from Princeton University in 1985, after which she also attended Harvard as a law student. After graduating in 1988 with a law degree, Michelle moved to Chicago where she worked in the corporate law field briefly, before turning to public service and a career greatly involved in planning with the city of Chicago. Barack and Michelle are active members in the United Church of Christ. The entire Obama family regularly attends services at Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago.

In short, Barack Obama is a practicing Christian and has been involved in a number of church-organized campaigns to better the city of Chicago. He is not Muslim, nor is his wife, Michelle. The confusion regarding this issue may simply be driven by those who are unconcerned, or worse, perhaps those who simply wish to mud-sling the Obama campaign. The truth is, Barack Obama is a practicing Christian and has never declared himself to be Muslim. He is as Christian as any other candidate in this campaign, and while there may be nothing wrong with being Muslim, there is something wrong with propagating misinformation.

Yes, Obama was big on declaring his "Christian" faith before the election. I haven't heard much about it since. He does not attend church, gave a 10 minute speech last year wishing all Muslims a blessed Ramadan, completely ignored our National Day of Prayer. I don't recall any "Merry Christmas" wished to Christians or Happy Hanukkah to Jews. He wants Muslim terrorists to have civil rights, sympathizes with the Muslim gunman at Ft. Hood and in all conflicts favors Palestine over Israel. Also, how is it that Michelle does not accompany him on official visits to Muslim countries? Laura Bush always went with George. And please, let's not even get into a discussion of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. :eek:

Einhard

fayrae wrote: »

And please, let's not even get into a discussion of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. :eek:

You mean the Christian church he attended for decades? I can see why you wouldn't want to discuss it alright, kinda goes against your Muslim argument.

TPD

Donkey Oaty wrote: »

Suspicious Package

Lol that's fcuking genius.

fayrae

You mean the Christian church he attended for decades? I can see why you wouldn't want to discuss it alright, kinda goes against your Muslim argument.

Yes, the one where they preach "God Damn America" and give awards to Louis Farrakhan, National Representative of the Nation of Islam. Hardly goes against my Muslim argument. Just a matter of opinion as to how Christian that church is or was.

eightyfish

fayrae wrote: »

gave a 10 minute speech last year wishing all Muslims a blessed Ramadan

Oh yes that settles it he's definitely a Muslim.

Nodin

fayrae wrote: »

Yes, Obama was big on declaring his "Christian" faith before the election. I haven't heard much about it since. He does not attend church, gave a 10 minute speech last year wishing all Muslims a blessed Ramadan, completely ignored our National Day of Prayer. I don't recall any "Merry Christmas" wished to Christians or Happy Hanukkah to Jews. He wants Muslim terrorists to have civil rights, sympathizes with the Muslim gunman at Ft. Hood and in all conflicts favors Palestine over Israel. Also, how is it that Michelle does not accompany him on official visits to Muslim countries? Laura Bush always went with George. And please, let's not even get into a discussion of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. :eek:

...there a reason you can't answer the question put to you? Are you perhaps like one of those folks who stands on the street, shouting about stuff....?

Howard the Duck

Overheal wrote: »

This isn't anywhere, this is within spitting distance (the Irony..) of Ground Zero.

Your spitting powers are impressive if you can spit for 2 blocks


I think they should be allowed build the Mosque. Intolerance to Muslims will only help the extremists to recruit more people. Good law abiding Muslims should be allowed to practice their beliefs.

fayrae

...there a reason you can't answer the question put to you? Are you perhaps like one of those folks who stands on the street, shouting about stuff....?

The question is?????????

eightyfish

fayrae your post has made me curious to do a bit of googleing.

fayrae wrote: »

gave a 10 minute speech last year wishing all Muslims a blessed Ramadan,

Partially true, but really needs to be seen in context.

completely ignored our National Day of Prayer.

Not really true.

I don't recall any "Merry Christmas" wished to Christians or Happy Hanukkah to Jews.

I'm with you on the "Merry Christmas" thing. However the statement about Hanukka is not true.

He wants Muslim terrorists to have civil rights,

As far as I know he just wants prisoners accused of terrorism to receive a fair trail and be presumed innocent until proven guilty. A basic human right, really.

sympathizes with the Muslim gunman at Ft. Hood and in all conflicts favors Palestine over Israel.

I couldn't find anything about the Ft Hood thing, and I don't know enough about the Israel/Palestine situation to comment (though I would swing slightly in favour of the Palestinians too.)

So in summary, you haven't presented any evidence at all that suggests in any serious way that Obama is a Muslim or even a Muslim sympathiser.

karma_

I read earlier that this isn't even really only 2 blocks from ground zero, its apparently 2 blocks from the corner of one of the buildings that came down but more like 4 or 5 blocks from the actual site of the memorial, which makes this whole thing even more ridiculous.

starbelgrade

I've no problem with the location, but I do have a problem with the timing. It's a bit too soon - I mean, the attacks were only 9 years ago.

Nodin

fayrae wrote: »

The question is?????????

You stated

Even Muslims, those who dare to speak out, are saying some Muslims, including those proposing this project, will see this as a Muslim victory over the US.

I wanted some sources for the idea that the people building the community centre "will see this as a muslim victory over the US".

Turtwig

Nodin wrote: »

I wanted some sources for the idea that the people building the community centre "will see this as a muslim victory over the US".

Slightly off topic, but are there any extreme-ish doctrine mosques already operating in NY?

Nodin

No idea, tbh.

According to this article that "Leif Erikson linked earlier, theres certainly a Wahabi mosque there though...

http://www.thedailybeast.com/blogs-and-stories/2010-08-10/why-muslims-like-me-agree-with-the-tea-party-activists/

Overheal

Howard the Duck wrote: »

Your spitting powers are impressive if you can spit for 2 blocks

old post is old.

fayrae wrote: »

Yes, Obama was big on declaring his "Christian" faith before the election. I haven't heard much about it since. He does not attend church, gave a 10 minute speech last year wishing all Muslims a blessed Ramadan, completely ignored our National Day of Prayer. I don't recall any "Merry Christmas" wished to Christians or Happy Hanukkah to Jews. He wants Muslim terrorists to have civil rights, sympathizes with the Muslim gunman at Ft. Hood and in all conflicts favors Palestine over Israel. Also, how is it that Michelle does not accompany him on official visits to Muslim countries? Laura Bush always went with George. And please, let's not even get into a discussion of Trinity United Church of Christ in Chicago. :eek:

Well you can read that in one of a few ways:

- Obama is a secret muslim

- Obama is reaching out to the muslim world to bridge peace

- Obama is putting Christianity back in its place after the Bush Years. Because seriously, all that Chosen by God crap that guy spewed, really pissed all over religious freedom because it gave Christianity a big ****ing ego-penis thinking they were suddenly the only important denomination in America.

Christianity has plenty of Consideration in American culture. Too much, in fact.

H. Flashman

I can understand why some people might think its in bad taste - but in fairness they have every right to build a mosque wherever they want

Cheap Thrills!

H. Flashman wrote: »

I can understand why some people might think its in bad taste - but in fairness they have every right to build a mosque wherever they want

NIMBY !

beans

It's a multi-story cultural centre that includes a mosque, amongst other things, that will be positioned two blocks from the site of the old trade centre - hardly a big deal.

They should organise a protest-rally, and then when the crowds show up, toss everyone in a huge black sack and toss it over a bridge into a river. Then do something similar to the idiot media who whipped this non-event into the sh!tstorm it is.

Terry

Overheal wrote: »

old post is old.



Well you can read that in one of a few ways:

- Obama is a secret muslim

- Obama is reaching out to the muslim world to bridge peace

- Obama is putting Christianity back in its place after the Bush Years. Because seriously, all that Chosen by God crap that guy spewed, really pissed all over religious freedom because it gave Christianity a big ****ing ego-penis thinking they were suddenly the only important denomination in America.

Christianity has plenty of Consideration in American culture. Too much, in fact.

Stew-Beef touched on the whole God in politics thing a few weeks back.
He showed some Senators and Congressmen telling people that God was behind them and whatnot. He then made the valid point that if they had done that in the 80's o 90's they would have been thrown into a loony bin.
Except he did it funnier than it sounds above.