Landis admits doping, points finger at LA - Please read Mod Warning post 1

Eamonnator

Well, I am just delighted, that,finally, Lance has been found completely innocent of all charges of Doping.

morana

Eamonnator wrote: »

Well, I am just delighted, that,finally, Lance has been found completely innocent of all charges of Doping.

Thats not quite correct. usada are now chasing him. I recall they have his samples from the tours he has won. Maybe they might retest them now and release the results...lets hope so...

Lumen

Leroy42 wrote: »

Yet somehow, all of you guys just 'know' that he doped. Based on what evidence. Circumstantial, certainly

Circumstantial evidence can be beyond reasonable doubt, strong enough to convict in court. Why do you require a smoking gun for Lance? Because he won the TdF a lot? Because you own a Trek? Because he gives you man-lust?

Leroy42 wrote: »

I am not saying for one second that he didn't dope, but this constant line from people that he is cancer on the sport based on nothing more than their personal dislike of the man seems extreme.

Nope, his behaviour and the alleged doping are two entirely separate issues. Your conflation of them is a strawman.

Beasty

Landis' evidence appeared more than circumstantial. Clearly his credibility was an issue

I find it interesting that the publicity the case has attracted was a factor in deciding not to proceed. I guess that fact that a lot of people were assuming guilt would beg a question as to whether he could have received a fair trial

I'm with morana in hoping they can retest some of his old samples and make the results available (assuming there are no material concerns over the validity of results on such old samples) - the release of such information would certainly make the modding of this thread a lot easier;)

dave2pvd

84 pages later and I have learned this:

His fans call him "Lance". So many people on a first name basis with the guy. Quite remarkable.


After a feed of pancakes (loaded with HGH) and a pot of coffee, I'm watching the news channels here in USofA. The Armstrong story has not gone beyond the ticker that runs across the bottom of the screen. Newt vs Romney vs Paul vs Somotherguy is story 1, 2 and 3. Over on ESPN, the Armstrong story is on their main news rotation, although only for a fleeting minute or so. Superbowl weekend far overshadows some sport where skinny guys pedal bicycles.

Leroy42

Good way to misread a post Lumen,

I am not saying that the two are remotely linked, I was pointing out that people seem to dislike the man and are projecting this to provide some 'evidence' that he doped.

Smoking gun? For such a worldwide superstar, with so many people involved on his teams, so many people chasing him, it would seem that the least people could do was get some hard evidence. At this point all we have is some ex-team mates and convicted dopers claiming they saw him dope. Oh yeah, and ex-team mates wife!

Do I know if he doped or not? Haven't got a clue. I have my own feelings on the subject but since I have no evidence to prove them I see little point in constantly pointing them out.

For people such as Morana and others to come and say it is a terrible day for the sport is crazy. Based on what? What evidence do they have that he doped? If they have it they should reveal it to the relevant authorities, rather than making accusations on this thread.

The basic fact here is that the fed's were investigating LA and the team as a whole for the misappropriation of public funds (through their sponsorship by US Postal) to fund a drug program. Even if they couldn't locate the drugs themselves, surely they followed the money (that was really their interest after all).

So now we are supposed to believe that LA was the most doped cyclist, while at the same time running an empire which anybody who worked for never speaks out against, while also running an elaborate money syphoning operation!!! Remember that it wasn't only the last year or two that he was suspected, right from the start. So anybody working on the team as far back as 1999 knew that providing evidence against him would be significant and propbably financially worthwhile. For a guy that is suppossedly so unlikeable, it seems many people are willing to stay quite on such a subject.

If he was able to do all that, then fair play to him. Not many people could pull that off and still have time to cycle their bikes. If he is found to have doped then I hope they throw the book at him, pull down everything he achieved and expose him for what he did.

Chips Lovell

I think one thing that should be born in mind is that the Federal investigation wasn't into whether he doped or not, but whether he defrauded the government by using sponsorship money to dope along with drug trafficking and money laundering.

On the issue of why he is disliked and whether it is justified, I think for many it is less about whether he was a product of his times or not and more about the thoroughly unpleasant way he went after some people in the sport, in particular people who hadn't even made allegations about him personally but who testified about doping at the time, either through the media or in courts.

Eamonnator

morana wrote: »

Thats not quite correct. usada are now chasing him. I recall they have his samples from the tours he has won. Maybe they might retest them now and release the results...lets hope so...

"Justice delayed is Justice denied"

boege

If there is any fairness in the sport there needs to be a transparent and accepted methods of detection, adjudication and sanction.

Armstrong was not subject to any sanction and if there is a flaw then it is with the lack of transparency in the systems to detect cheating. If Armstrong cheated then to me he is just another cheating cyclists but if he did then it raises bigger questions about the entire running of the sport.

The current delays surrounding Contador display the continued lack of confiction to act with transparency and urgency. Ultimately this is damaging for everyone for once accused the suspicion will remain, reardless of any test results.

In short there is no means to prove ones innocence.

Chips Lovell

Do you think investigations and hearings should be rushed in order to satisfy public curiosity?

morana

boege wrote: »

If there is any fairness in the sport there needs to be a transparent and accepted methods of detection, adjudication and sanction.

Armstrong was not subject to any sanction and if there is a flaw then it is with the lack of transparency in the systems to detect cheating. If Armstrong cheated then to me he is just another cheating cyclists but if he did then it raises bigger questions about the entire running of the sport.

The current delays surrounding Contador display the continued lack of confiction to act with transparency and urgency. Ultimately this is damaging for everyone for once accused the suspicion will remain, reardless of any test results.

In short there is no means to prove ones innocence.

In fairness the tests for epo, hgh, blood transfusions, plasticizers etc didnt exist. In the early days the detection of epo had to be in a small window after the drug was taken.

The current situation with Contador is a joke.

boege

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Do you think investigations and hearings should be rushed in order to satisfy public curiosity?

No and I did not make that point. I called for transparency and decisiveness for the benefit of all racers.

Contador's test results have been known for some time. If it was any other cyclist it would have been sorted by now, the name on the urine sample should not matter.

Chips Lovell

boege wrote: »

No and I did not make that point. I called for transparency and decisiveness for the benefit of all racers.

Contador's test results have been known for some time. If it was any other cyclist it would have been sorted by now, the name on the urine sample should not matter.

If it were any other cyclist, they wouldn't be able to afford the team of lawyers Contador threw at the case. The more high profile the rider, the more it is contested and the longer you can expect the hearings to drag on.

boege

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

If it were any other cyclist, they wouldn't be able to afford the team of lawyers Contador threw at the case. The more high profile the rider, the more it is contested and the longer you can expect the hearings to drag on.

Money talks and the sport suffers!

ROK ON

@Vlad. You have raised a point about the timliness of legal cases and that he has money to drag things out.
I think that is generally the case worldwide in civil matters but nit in regard to criminal proceedings. The Feds were trying to build a credible case. Unfortunately they haven't one. I think the sport should move on now.

Yes all his blood still exists. I don't know why the doping authorities have not requested it tested, but they haven't.

He is a very very flawed individual, whether he is innocent or guilty of doping won't change my opinion of the guy. It is my opinion based on the circumstantial evidence that he may well have. But I don't know what it achieves to punish him retrospectively.

It's a pity they can't prosecute someone for be g an assh0le as the evidence there is pretty incontrovertible. But they can't.

They couldn't get him. The sport needs to move on.
Maybe they will get Bertie. But bychrist the administration of dope eating and prosecution needs to change from the present ongoing farce.

irishmotorist

Leroy42 wrote: »

...
Yet somehow, all of you guys just 'know' that he doped. Based on what evidence. Circumstantial, certainly, but is that enough to wipe out the achievments of the greatest TdF champion in history (in terms of victories).
...

Are you aware of the circumstantial evidence that is out there? I'm thinking of things like:

• Eyewitness accounts from teammates who (claim to) have witnessed him administering PEDs.
• Eyewitness accounts from teammates, colleagues and friends who (claim to have) heard him admit to using PEDs.
• Secretive dumping of medical equipment during a TDF.
• Close association with the doctor who is best known (to me anyway) as being Dr EPO.
• His performances against people who were found to be EPO'd off their nuts - see the Mont Ventoux video in a recent post.

There's more, but that's the most that comes to the top of my head.

Yes, he's the most tested man - blah blah. I'm not sure about now, but at the time there was no test for the EPO substance. The only tool that testers had for the likes of EPO was being able to trace unusual blood values. A smart doper could circumvent this by being careful.

If you are aware of the publicly available circumstantial evidence, do you think he's innocent?

Beasty

irishmotorist wrote: »

If you are aware of the publicly available circumstantial evidence, do you think he's innocent?

Posters are perfectly entitled to think whatever they like. They cannot, however, speculate that any individual has illegally taken Performance Enhancing Drugs on this site, so please do not ask other posters whether they "think" he's innocent, or post any views implying he is not

Thanks

Beasty

irishmotorist

Beasty wrote: »

Posters are perfectly entitled to think whatever they like. They cannot, however, speculate that any individual has illegally taken Performance Enhancing Drugs on this site, so please do not ask other posters whether they "think" he's innocent, or post any views implying he is not

Thanks

Beasty

I was trying to be careful with my wording, but this slipped through. Apologies.

mattser

Once again the baying pack uncover.........NOTHING. Things curiously quiet about this in print over here.

Inquitus

mattser wrote: »

Once again the baying pack uncover.........NOTHING. Things curiously quiet about this in print over here.

To win 7 tours during the most drug riddled decade in cycling and not be doping? That if true would be incredible. This was an era where PEDs gave massive performance gains, and he was beating people like Pantani in the hills who we subsequently know was juiced up to his eyeballs. That certainly casts a long shadow over his achievements imho.

petethedrummer

Great news, I can wear my Livestrong jersey with pride again when I start back into the cycling in June. See yous out on the road.

ROK ON

petethedrummer wrote: »

Great news, I can wear my Livestrong jersey with pride again when I start back into the cycling in June. See yous out on the road.

Livestrong jersey - Ha. I,ve seen a guy cycling on a livestrong bike!!!

petethedrummer

That's some strong living.

Captain Havoc

Whilst not beating the bike, at last years TdF there was a guy opposite me wearing LIVESTRONG* cap, t-shirt, jawbone and wrist-band, I assume he had matching shorts, black socks and sandles. I looked further down and in a corner I could huddled in a corner, Jesus weeping.

*Do you like what I did there? :trollsmileyface:

Hermy

It's not about the bike!

happytramp

Woah! This is pretty crazy. Seems like they had a very strong case and were on the verge bringing charges against several people when they were inexplicably shut down at the last minute. Apparently Cyclingnews spoke to a source who had co-operated with the investigation who said...

I talked to someone within the investigation but the reason why the case was shut down was due to a one man decision. The evidence against those involved was absolutely overwhelming. They were going to be charged with a slew of crimes but for reasons unexplained he closed the case saying it wasn't open for discussion,”


This just gets weirder and weirder.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/concerns-over-closure-of-federal-investigation-into-armstrong-and-us-postal

furiousox

furiousox wrote: »

"Make it go away George.."

Hmmm...

NickDrake

This is absolutely disgraceful – Another Lance Armstrong cover up?

Why am I not surprised.

petethedrummer

More lies about arguably the greatest human being ever to have lived.

Inquitus

petethedrummer wrote: »

More lies about arguably the greatest human being ever to have lived.

Someone been spreading rumours Einstein was on EPO again?

NickDrake

petethedrummer wrote: »

More lies about arguably the greatest human being ever to have lived.

fat bloke

petethedrummer wrote: »

More lies about arguably the greatest human being ever to have lived.

Jaysus... sure, maybe, if he'd taken some personality enhancing drugs....

Undercover Elephant

So ... a journalist spoke to a source who co-operated with the investigation who says that someone on the team told him that someone shut the investigation down. There was overwhelming evidence, but we aren't told whether it was the journalist, the source, the someone, or the evil shutter-downer who said so.

Impressive stuff.

Lumen

happytramp wrote: »

I talked to someone within the investigation but the reason why the case was shut down was due to a one man decision.

seven stars

Is it possible that Armstrong is a member of a shadowy global elite of shape-shifting reptilians? Seems like the best explanation that's been presented so far.

petethedrummer

Careful. he'll probably sue you.

kumate_champ07

looking forward to the movie, Russel Crowe could play Paul Kimmage, Christian Bale as Lance?

Harrybelafonte

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

looking forward to the movie, Russel Crowe could play Paul Kimmage, Christian Bale as Lance?

Not sure Mr Bale could achieve the "athletic physique" of Mr Armstrong, he's either super buff or y'know, the other one:

kumate_champ07

he did play a junkie in a sports movie

kumate_champ07

Oldlegs

kumate_champ07 wrote: »

looking forward to the movie, Russel Crowe could play Paul Kimmage, Christian Bale as Lance?

What about a scene where Russell (Kimmage) Crowe has a complete melt-down during a press-conference with Christian (Lance) Bale. Rather than just the stare-down, turn-away that was the event they could start throwing phones and beat the cr*p out of each other.

That would have made some cycling headlines.

Harrybelafonte

Get y' now. Though I'd still rather Arnett as Gob Bluth to play LA. He can perform feats of incomprehensible magic too!

lennymc

I get the feeling some people aren't taking this seriously.

manwithaplan

lennymc wrote: »

I get the feeling some people aren't taking this seriously.

Doping is a cancer that is eating away at the heart of our sport.

Happy now?

lennymc

wheres that oul sarcastic font when ye need it

petethedrummer

but this sequence of events is too funny to not post......

Livestrong deal to see Armstrong compete in Ironman

10 February 2012 | Posted in Sponsorship, Triathlon, North America | By Eoin Connolly

Cancer charity Livestrong has agreed a new partnership with the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC).
The deal will see Livestrong founder and seven-time Tour de France winner Lance Armstrong compete in a number of the WTC's flagship Ironman and Ironman 70.3 events which will be added to the endurance series' schedule. Armstrong will compete as part of Team Livestrong, with places available for other competitors, in a partnership which is aiming to raise at least US$1 million for people affected by cancer.

http://www.sportspromedia.com/news/livestrong_deal_to_see_armstrong_compete_in_ironman/

Incidentally.....The Ironman(WTC) branch of Triathlon is not under the IOC umbrella so can decide themselves who is to be drug tested. But I must state that correlation does not imply causation.

Lance Armstrong almost wins Ironman 70.3 Panama

It was almost a fairy tale return to Triathlon for the seven times Tour de France winner; Lance Armstrong. He was leading going into the final mile of the 70.3 mile course (1.2mile swim, 56mile cycle, 13.1mile run), but two times Olympic medalist and former world triathlon champion; Bevan Docherty (NZ) ran past him in the final mile.

Lance Armstrong started out in triathlon in the 1980′s before starting on a career that transformed cycling forever.

As is always the case when Lance races, controversy is never far behind. Two tweets for 4th place finisher Rasmus Henning were trending high last night.

rasmushenning Feb 12, 8:00pm

“I thought it was common practice to drug test Top3 and not just random from 4th and down? That was not the case at 70.3 Panama.”

rasmushenning Feb 12, 11:43pm

“For the record I would be upset about any race with prize money where Top3 didn’t get tested. Regardless of who. Even if I was IN the Top3.“

http://www.irishtriathlon.com/index.php/2012/02/lance-armstrong-almost-wins-ironman-panama/

Armstrong finishes second in ironman and then 'snubs' winner at finish line

By Sportsmail Reporter UPDATED: 10:41 GMT, 13 February 2012


New Zealander Bevan Docherty says he was snubbed by Lance Armstrong after beating the seven-time Tour de France winner into second place at the Panama half ironman on Sunday, Armstrong's first professional triathlon.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/othersports/article-2100362/Lance-Armstrong-snubs-Bevan-Docherty-finishing-second.html

The old charmer. Enjoy him while you can triathlists.

Chips Lovell

Armstrong suggests he won't contest USADA case:

“In my mind, I’m truly done. You can interpret that however you want,” he said in a long Men’s Journal interview, being released this week and dealing mainly with his bid to win an Ironman. “But no matter what happens, I’m finished. I’m done fighting. I’ve moved on. If there are other things that arise, I’m not contesting anything. Case closed.”

ednwireland

can i lock this thread now then ?????

AstraMonti

Life is unfair.

Now you can close it

Sundy

Captain Havoc wrote: »

Whilst not beating the bike, at last years TdF there was a guy opposite me wearing LIVESTRONG* cap, t-shirt, jawbone and wrist-band, I assume he had matching shorts, black socks and sandles. I looked further down and in a corner I could huddled in a corner, Jesus weeping.

*Do you like what I did there? :trollsmileyface:

somebody bought clothing which supports a charity?

Disgraceful! I hope you laughed in their face!