Customs seize car after six-hour stand-off

Macca6

The main point to be learned here is that regardless or not if you agree with VRT - if you want to buy a car and drive it here in the south you 'have' to pay the VRT.
Lobby your TD's-get it abolished - until then pay the damn tax!!!!

Stinicker

When Ireland was under British rule it was legal for them to stop Catholics practising their religion and to evict and tax every poor tenant farmer to the hilt. This was legal under the British system, but was it fair?

Just because something is the law and is legal dosen't make it automatically OK or fair. The people here who protest "oh good she got caught, why doesn't she play fair like the rest of us" are clearly doormats and have not even got the intelligence to question authority on this issue.

Is it any wonder we have got successive governments of Fianna Fail when the Irish populace are too ignorant to question authority or rebel against anything? The English colonised us for 800years and we rebelled constantly, yet to this day we have a system of governance in place where the current authorities are treating the people no different, but because the oppressors today are Irish seems to make it ok?

We have an undemocratic government and an unelected leader who are refusing to call both a general election and the two crucial by elections, they made us revote on two referendums when the peoples vote was not acceptable to them. We are currently in a Fianna Fail dictatorship and our democracy is dead until they are removed.

One of the key signs of intelligence is to question authority and in the US there is a whole industry grown out of avoiding tax, yet the clowns in the country queue up like lambs to the slaughter and never question anything.

paddy147

Has anyone taken the state to court over the whole VRT thing and whether its legal or not???


Just wondering if anyone has tried to do it?

Guy:Incognito

paddy147 wrote: »

Has anyone taken the state to court over the whole VRT thing and whether its legal or not???


Just wondering if anyone has tried to do it?

Why would they? The EU says its legal,game over.

PARKHEAD67

VRT is a fools tax. The Irish government can, and do whatever they please. The Lisbon Treaty. Anyone??? Keep voting till you vote right.

Anan1

Stinicker wrote: »

The English colonised us for 800years and we rebelled constantly, yet to this day we have a system of governance in place where the current authorities are treating the people no different, but because the oppressors today are Irish seems to make it ok?

I think you've unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. The Irish do still tend to see the government as an alien entity intent on screwing the last cent out of them. The practical expression of this is the attitude that tax evasion is somehow, cool, rebellious, one up for the little people. Of course the reality is that we live in a society and that kind of juvenile mé-féinerism just makes life harder on everybody.

PARKHEAD67

Anan1 wrote: »

I think you've unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. The Irish do still tend to see the government as an alien entity intent on screwing the last cent out of them. The practical expression of this is the attitude that tax evasion is somehow, cool, rebellious, one up for the little people. Of course the reality is that we live in a society and that kind of juvenile mé-féinerism just makes life harder on everybody.

If your a PAYE worker like me and my wife you dont screw anything off the government.Trust me, the shoe is very much on the other foot.:cool:

stimpson

dr.fuzzenstein wrote: »

Also, by your attitude you must be on good money.
Others are not so lucky and had to take any job going and things are a bit tighter than they used to be.
You may have a good cushion in your earnings but for people who feel the pinch it's difficult, the state is not helping and those green cnuts certainly aren't helping.

I'm amazed how much you know about me from a couple of sarcastic posts. Cop on to yourself.

We're talking about a woman who didn't pay VRT on a Lexus 4x4. Do you think she's feeling the pinch (well maybe she is now she's getting fined).

If the state was 1.3 billion down because of VRT abolition it would be raised from income tax or VAT which would impact poorer people harder. Big engined expensive cars bring in a lot of VRT that would have to be raised somewhere else.

Anan1

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

If your a PAYE worker like me and my wife you dont screw anything off the government.

I'm not talking about you personally, i'm talking about VRT evasion.

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

I think you've unwittingly hit the nail on the head there. The Irish do still tend to see the government as an alien entity intent on screwing the last cent out of them. The practical expression of this is the attitude that tax evasion is somehow, cool, rebellious, one up for the little people. Of course the reality is that we live in a society and that kind of juvenile mé-féinerism just makes life harder on everybody.

Really hard to see your point there. Clearly the culture here is one of begruding anyone any pleasure or more precisely any less misfortune than ones self, as in this case we have hordes of sheeple gloating some stranger got stung for VRT because they know they paid it, so she should too, misery loves company. I have never encountered (and the 15pages here backs it up) any evidence people think tax evasion is "cool". More likely you will spy on and later report for reward your neighbours tbh.

The allusion that we live in a society that requires us all to chip in is again only relevant for a few on the lower financial rungs. To keep it utterly simple, we live in a society with high taxes with none of the benefits, anyone with any amount of money pays for private everything rather than run the lottery of woeful social services.

For the record, as stated before, I have paid VRT on 5 cars in the last 5 years, most likely in VRT paid stakes on this thread Im near the top of the list. But unlike the more ignorant posters here, I dont enjoy or need to see others choking up a legally unfair tax.

stimpson wrote: »

If the state was 1.3 billion down because of VRT abolition it would be raised from income tax or VAT which would impact poorer people harder. Big engined expensive cars bring in a lot of VRT that would have to be raised somewhere else.

So freakin what? Besides, think about it, why have stealth taxes on everything here when you could have a fair and equal tax based on consumption but on everything?
VAT is a more forecastable tax income than the ebb and flow of VRT (VRT intake is low for 2years now), VAT is a tax for everyone to benefit everyone (isnt that the point, to contribute to society), "big engined expensive cars" dont always have more VRT, but either way higher VAT would catch out servicing, fuel etc on these cars, so again, harder on the "rich" but better for these poor folk you are so concerned about.

MojoMaker

If the continuing presence of VRT means income tax is not raised then long live VRT, an elective tax unlike income tax.

smash

Stinicker wrote: »

The problem I would have is for the customs and Gardai to come onto private property and steal your vehicle for not paying what is an immoral tax. Now hypothetically say for instance I import a used Veyron into Ireland from another EU country, how can anyone here condone the theft of a persons car because they have not paid a stupid tax.

They didn't steal it, they confiscated it until she pays the tax and fine. the same way if you drive without motor tax your car will be confiscated until the tax and fine are payed up!

Stinicker wrote: »

The people here who protest "oh good she got caught, why doesn't she play fair like the rest of us" are clearly doormats and have not even got the intelligence to question authority on this issue.

Well I think it's been proven that we have more intelligence than the likes of the people on the facebook group who are getting their pitchforks ready because "it's an illegal tax"

Stinicker wrote: »

Is it any wonder we have got successive governments of Fianna Fail.....

Keep that crap for the politics forum.

Stinicker wrote: »

One of the key signs of intelligence is to question authority and in the US there is a whole industry grown out of avoiding tax, yet the clowns in the country queue up like lambs to the slaughter and never question anything.

you're right, lets all stop paying tax and see where Ireland is this time 6 months... :rolleyes:

A key signs of intelligence is not to question authority, it's to think about what you're doing and to know weather it's right or wrong. I guess you don't understand that though because you're ready to pop a cap in someone's ass...

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

To keep it utterly simple, we live in a society with high taxes with none of the benefits, anyone with any amount of money pays for private everything rather than run the lottery of woeful social services.

You've said this before, giving the examples of education & healthcare. Thing is, these are both mainly paid for by the State, even if you do go private.

I do agree with your point re begrudgery, although I believe begrudgery and tax evasion can make happy bedfellows.

Matt Simis

Anan1 wrote: »

You've said this before, giving the examples of education & healthcare. Thing is, these are both mainly paid for by the State, even if you do go private.

I admit I dont have these figures to hand and you did point this out before, but surely private healthcare receives less funding than public?
On the same token, I get mailings from the Educate Together non-state, non-denominational primary schools and they frequently draw attention to the fact they receive minimal (as in a fraction of) funding that state schools get. So it isnt fair to claim in a they both get tax funds in a blanket manner if the private alternatives get a minority or token share is it?

Voodoomelon

From what i've heard/read about this incident, I conclude this person has made an absolute fool of herself. Whatever about standing up for what she believes in, shes just come across as a twat.

Something akin to buying a €2000 TV in Currys, only handing over 79% if its value and then sitting in it like a grumpy child, refusing to pay the VAT.

I don't like VRT because of the way the system is implemented, as well as the OMSP of cars the revenue have drawn up, but I still pay it as it is part of the cost of the car.

Pay the VRT, pay the fine and stop whining you fool of a woman.

Dave147

Gophur wrote: »

Abolish VRT and the shortfall will have to be made up from other sources.

You (the Public) decide. There are more than enough used cars in Ireland, at prices that are competitive, to satisfy any demand. Everyone knows there is VRT payable. Those who choose to ignore it must face up to the consequences, if they are caught.

Pulling a sad face and crying your heart out, while locked in your car, is hardly a credible protest.

The carrying of a cheque, the woman had no intention of handing over, is pathetic. Did she think that waving this cheque would get her off paying her due tax?

I'd gladly buy an Irish car if they didn't give us complete ****e spec. How many 1.8T or 1.9TDI Quattro Audi's do you see on our roads that aren't imported? I'd love to give Johnny Broke 10 grand for his Audi but I want value for money, and that's what I get when I buy across the water, but there should never be a situation where someone is paying 6-7k VRT, THAT is wrong.

Anan1

Matt Simis wrote: »

I admit I dont have these figures to hand and you did point this out before, but surely private healthcare receives less funding than public?
On the same token, I get mailings from the Educate Together non-state, non-denominational primary schools and they frequently draw attention to the fact they receive minimal (as in a fraction of) funding that state schools get. So it isnt fair to claim in a they both get tax funds in a blanket manner if the private alternatives get a minority or token share is it?

I'm no expert on this either, but my understanding is that both schools and hospitals all get the same basic funding from the government, which is then topped up by fees/private healthcare.

Stinicker

Voodoomelon wrote: »

Something akin to buying a €2000 TV in Currys, only handing over 79% if its value and then sitting in it like a grumpy child, refusing to pay the VAT.

With a VAT number you can claim back the VAT as a business expense so that €2000 TV would actually cost you €1580 and you would have saved €420, now as much as the fools on here would trip over themselves to pay that €420 extra I would rather have that money in my pocket and maybe spend it elsewhere thus supporting our economy more. By giving the state that €420 would get used to bail out Anglo Irish Bank or paid out in fraudulent social welfare claims.

Voodoomelon

Stinicker wrote: »

With a VAT number you can claim back the VAT as a business expense so that €2000 TV would actually cost you €1580 and you would have saved €420.

I knew i'd get dragged into something like this. What on EARTH has a business VAT number got to do with my point? I'm talking about 99% of ordinary people who pay VAT at point of sale.

And if you were any way legitimate in your business finances, you DO have to pay VAT and then OFFSET it against your own VAT liability. And the item you're purchasing has to be related to your line of business. But you already know all of this.

Stinicker

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I knew i'd get dragged into something like this. What on EARTH has a business VAT number got to do with my point? I'm talking about 99% of ordinary people who pay VAT at point of sale.

And if you were any way legitimate in your business finances, you DO have to pay VAT and then OFFSET it against your own VAT liability. And the item you're purchasing has to be related to your line of business. But you already know all of this.

Of course, a TV can be used as a display to show your customers a new product and you can show them it on a video or a picture. Alot of people have VAT numbers or know someone who can buy them the TV, paying the VAT on a big telly is a mugs game, I imported my TV from the UK cause it was cheaper and also made sure her majesty didn't get her 15% either. On something I have to pay VAT on I'd rather pay it to the UK government than to the shower of gangsters in charge here.

Voodoomelon

Stinicker wrote: »

spend it elsewhere thus supporting our economy more.

:rolleyes:

My point was VRT is a legal tax much like VAT. She should have paid it like any other everyday tax. Sitting in her car in a huff just made her look like a plonker.

Stinicker

Voodoomelon wrote: »

:rolleyes:

My point was VRT is a legal tax much like VAT. She should have paid it like any other everyday tax. Sitting in her car in a huff just made her look like a plonker.

No I think she was right to take a stand against the Government and they'd have to take the keys from cold dead hands first before I'd let a government official take away my property that I worked hard to earn the price of.

smash

but you didn't earn the price of it, you earned the price of it less the taxes to own it legally!

Macca6

Stinicker wrote: »

O On something I have to pay VAT on I'd rather pay it to the UK government than to the shower of gangsters in charge here.

VAT is a european tax so it doesn't matter where you pay it!

smash

Macca6 wrote: »

VAT is a european tax so it doesn't matter where you pay it!

well it is higher in the south

Macca6

steve06 wrote: »

well it is higher in the south

That's probably irrelevant here as it looks like he didn't pay anywhere

Cabaal

PARKHEAD67 wrote: »

VRT is a fools tax. The Irish government can, and do whatever they please. The Lisbon Treaty. Anyone??? Keep voting till you vote right.

You could argue any tax you don't like is a "fools tax",
:rolleyes:

None the less people must respect the laws of the country they reside in, the fact remains is she was living in Ireland and as such is bound by Irish law and this means paying VRT. The fact she had the car registered in the North shows that she was attempting to get around this law.

So in short she was picking and choosing laws and where she would register things to suit her, of course if she was unemployed in the morning you can bet that she'll register for job seekers in the republic and not the north

Henry Ford III

Stinicker wrote: »

With a VAT number you can claim back the VAT as a business expense so that €2000 TV would actually cost you €1580 and you would have saved €420, now as much as the fools on here would trip over themselves to pay that €420 extra I would rather have that money in my pocket and maybe spend it elsewhere thus supporting our economy more. By giving the state that €420 would get used to bail out Anglo Irish Bank or paid out in fraudulent social welfare claims.

Subject to correction but I understood only a limited (20% of the VAT paid) credit is available on a passenger vehicle, unless you are a motor dealer.

Shane732

Stinicker wrote: »

With a VAT number you can claim back the VAT as a business expense so that €2000 TV would actually cost you €1580 and you would have saved €420, now as much as the fools on here would trip over themselves to pay that €420 extra I would rather have that money in my pocket and maybe spend it elsewhere thus supporting our economy more. By giving the state that €420 would get used to bail out Anglo Irish Bank or paid out in fraudulent social welfare claims.

For all your talk you can't even get the calculation right:

Price: €2,000 (incl. VAT based on the discussions of this thread) A
VAT: €347 (€2,000 X 1.21/0.21) B
Ex VAT Price: €1,653 (A -

Shane732

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Subject to correction but I understood only a limited (20% of the VAT paid) credit is available on a passenger vehicle, unless you are a motor dealer.

Yup bang on and the re-claim is only available on Category A, B & C passenger cars.

Also the passenger car must be used for 60% business mileage and there is a claw-back if it is sold within two year or fails to be used 60% for business mileage.

Shane732

Stinicker wrote: »

Of course, a TV can be used as a display to show your customers a new product and you can show them it on a video or a picture. Alot of people have VAT numbers or know someone who can buy them the TV, paying the VAT on a big telly is a mugs game, I imported my TV from the UK cause it was cheaper and also made sure her majesty didn't get her 15% either. On something I have to pay VAT on I'd rather pay it to the UK government than to the shower of gangsters in charge here.

If you have a VAT number (or a friend or whatever sh*t or your talking about) and quoted your VAT number you wouldn't have been subject to UK VAT. It would have been zero rated in the UK and it would have been regarded as an intra-community acquisition is Ireland and therefore liable to Irish VAT. The VAT would be 21%.

I would seriously advise that if you're actually evading VAT/VRT etc... that you don't boast about it on a forum. If only there was a decent system in Ireland for catching tax evaders. :rolleyes:

galwaytt

Stinicker wrote: »

Of course, a TV can be used as a display to show your customers a new product and you can show them it on a video or a picture.

....don't forget to add the price of the TV licence as well

stimpson

Matt Simis wrote: »

So freakin what? Besides, think about it, why have stealth taxes on everything here when you could have a fair and equal tax based on consumption but on everything?
VAT is a more forecastable tax income than the ebb and flow of VRT (VRT intake is low for 2years now), VAT is a tax for everyone to benefit everyone (isnt that the point, to contribute to society), "big engined expensive cars" dont always have more VRT, but either way higher VAT would catch out servicing, fuel etc on these cars, so again, harder on the "rich" but better for these poor folk you are so concerned about.

So you're OK with paying extra VAT on your general day to day expenses rather than an elective tax, much of which you can avoid by carefully choosing your car. Now that really is crazy. Is it because you've a VAT number and find it easier to avoid paying VAT than VRT?

VRT is fair to people who can only afford a small car (or none). It's now based on CO2 emissions, so generally, the larger the engine the larger the bill.

galwaytt

stimpson wrote: »

VRT is fair to people who can only afford a small car (or none). It's now based on CO2 emissions, so generally, the larger the engine the larger the bill.

oh that that were true. A new 2.7 (3.0?) XF diesel Jag costs half the price of my 06 1.9 diesel to tax. Nothing in the slightest bit 'fair' about that.

baalthor

Matt Simis wrote: »

dont like the idea of sending my kids to State Church run schools so lets say private there too.

Before you write your cheque be aware that nearly all the private schools are under the control of religious organisations.

Alun

steve06 wrote: »

well it is higher in the south

.. although probably not for long if the new British government get their way.

stimpson

galwaytt wrote: »

oh that that were true. A new 2.7 (3.0?) XF diesel Jag costs half the price of my 06 1.9 diesel to tax. Nothing in the slightest bit 'fair' about that.

Really????

2006 1.9 - tax is 582 euro

2010 3.0 diesel Jag is Band E which is 600 euro


And VRT is only 2% less on the 2010 Jag

keithclancy

Ah seriously lads this is getting out of hand.

A. VRT is not an illegal tax, also the EU has no governance over local tax legislation.

B. It exists in other countries:

Similar taxes are in place are the Netherlands which has the BPM (Belasting Personenauto’s Motorrijwielen) tax . This tax is 45% of the selling price of the car and gives a discount or punishment based on the CO2 emission. The tax is supposed to disappear by 2018, but the government has said it would introduce a similar tax but then solely based on CO2 emissions.

Finland also operates a system which charges a separate vehicle tax in addition to VAT. This system has also attracted controversy

C. Its swings and roundabouts, i've worked out that no matter what the tax rate is you'll get roughly the same value for your Euro because everyone will end up with the same spending power anyway and everything is priced accordingly.

IMO people in Ireland have this crazy idea in their head that everything is cheaper outside Ireland, well hate to break it to you but its not, the big ones everyone notices, beer, fags, cars.

But then Tax in Germany is roughly 50% including your Social Insurance etc. Also petrol is running at (and I just passed a shell yesterday on the way home) 160/litre, Diesel is 128 / litre.

Mandatory health insurance is around 3k / year.

Point being I don't think its fair to say Ireland is a 'ripoff' when your trying to get the best of both worlds.

And Germany is not the driving Eutopia everyone makes it out to be, the Autobahns are in shít, some of the roads around towns and cities would knock the teeth out of your head and there are frikking speeding cameras EVERYWHERE around cities !

Off topic .. sorry had to have a rant

dergside

Stinicker wrote: »

I imported my TV from the UK cause it was cheaper and also made sure her majesty didn't get her 15% either. On something I have to pay VAT on I'd rather pay it to the UK government than to the shower of gangsters in charge here.

You were well within your rights to buy your TV where you choose, but in the manner that you outlined here you are showing your true colours. It appears, from what you've said, that you view taxes as being for the little people. You clearly state yourself that you do not belong to the group of little people, given that you clearly have no qualms about evading (not avoiding) tax. If you had paid the VAT somewhere you would have been avoiding some tax, by not paying it in either place you turned that in to evasion. Avoidance is legal, evasion is not. By inference, if you are not one of the little people, you are one of the group of morally and legally corrupt - grouping you with the politicians, bankers and others you claim to detest.

You are a member of the very group of people you claim to be rallying against.

Dun

To everybody that's coming on Donegal-bashing: wise up. The woman is from Derry, just living in Donegal. If we move her to Dublin, can we "give it back to the Brits". :rolleyes:

gpjordanf1

Dun wrote: »

To everybody that's coming on Donegal-bashing: wise up. The woman is from Derry, just living in Donegal. If we move her to Dublin, can we "give it back to the Brits". :rolleyes:

If she's British, isn't she entitled to keep her British car? Once she goes back over the border for the required time?

.Longshanks.

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

If she's British, isn't she entitled to keep her British car? Once she goes back over the border for the required time?

AFAIK from reading the links and from family living in Buncrana, the person in question is from Derry but lives in ROI. VRT therefore applies.

ardmacha

Neither the car nor the women were British, as she was from Derry and the car had a Down reg. But even if they were, that would be irrelevant to the issue if she was living in Donegal.

gpjordanf1

Longshanks100 wrote: »

AFAIK from reading the links and from family living in Buncrana, the person in question is from Derry but lives in ROI. VRT therefore applies.

Pretty sure I've heard of a loophole about bringing the car out of the country every 6 months and having proof you were out of the country?

Anyway if her main residence is in the Republic then it doesn't apply presumably?

But if that is the case how come all the other euro reg cars aren't required to pay VRT and why is that not enforced? ( Oh and if you say yes it is, then no sorry fail!, I have neighbors from various euro countries that have their cars for more than 6 months on various reg's, the new trend is them buying NI reg cars.) I live in a large Urban Town BTW where the customs are active.
Anyone care to explain that to me?

batman1

VRT is legal, but the seizing of personal assets (like a car, for example) which is worth, say, 20k for an outstanding payment of say, 1k is not allowed under EU law. This applies to any possessions, not just the VRT issue

BTW if one does a bit of research, Dublin has the closest relationship to britain, geneology wise. Liverpool has the closest Irish relationship. So perhaps we could swap

And one thing that must not be overlooked is the constant moaning about people living in border counties buying cheaper products in the North. Anyone forgetting about the M1 'carpark' to newry at Christmas?

The mess we are in at the minute could partly be attributed to the levels of payment that were forked out in Dublin for property that fuelled the madness.

I know someone who owns a property company in the North.A few years ago, I was shown the brochure for a 3 bed apartment in Dublin. Price? 5 million. I was also shown another brochure for a 5 bed house on 2 acres outside Belfast. Price? 900k STG.

ardmacha

Anyone care to explain that to me?

You could read some of the VRT threads. If your normal residence is in the State then you need a car registered in the State. If your normal residence is elsewhere then this is not the case. At least some of the foreign reg cars knocking around belong to students or people from E Europe whose families remain there.

The woman may have had a job in Derry, it is not a question of returning every now and again.

JHMEG

gpjordanf1 wrote: »

If she's British, isn't she entitled to keep her British car?

No, once you come to live in our country you have to pay our taxes.

furtzy

batman1 wrote: »

VRT is legal, but the seizing of personal assets (like a car, for example) which is worth, say, 20k for an outstanding payment of say, 1k is not allowed under EU law. This applies to any possessions, not just the VRT issue.

Link? Would like to study this

batman1 wrote: »

The mess we are in at the minute could partly be attributed to the levels of payment that were forked out in Dublin for property that fuelled the madness.

I know someone who owns a property company in the North.A few years ago, I was shown the brochure for a 3 bed apartment in Dublin. Price? 5 million. I was also shown another brochure for a 5 bed house on 2 acres outside Belfast. Price? 900k STG.

I fail to see the link between the price difference of 2 totally different properties in different locations and failure to pay VRT

gpjordanf1

JHMEG wrote: »

No, once you come to live in our country you have to pay our taxes.

ardmacha wrote: »

You could read some of the VRT threads. If your normal residence is in the State then you need a car registered in the State. If your normal residence is elsewhere then this is not the case. At least some of the foreign reg cars knocking around belong to students or people from E Europe whose families remain there.

The woman may have had a job in Derry, it is not a question of returning every now and again.

Aren't these two posts a contradiction?

And I was talking about EU people living here with their families, which accounts for the majority of these cars I have mentioned.

And also the new trend of these same families now using NI reg British cars.

ardmacha

And I was talking about EU people living here with their families, which accounts for the majority of these cars I have mentioned.

Give customs a ring so.