Professionalism in photography

Paulw

This seems to be an issue cropping up more and more. It's not about the "professional" or money side of photography, but more about how you act.

Maybe it's more a social comment on modern society than just photography. People seem to think they can do what they want, what suits them, and forget about the consequences.

A few weeks ago I found an Irish photographer, who was using (and selling) images belonging to someone else. This very much annoyed me, since the images in use belong to Danny (Valentia).

Ireland is a small country. How can someone think they can get away with passing someone else's work off as their own, and try to make profit from it?

Because Ireland is small, we tend, as photographers, to cross paths frequently with those of similar interest or shoot similar topics. There's a relatively small community of photographers. At this stage, I'd say I've come across a large number of those who shoot sport, and for the majority, get along well with the others. A mutual respect.

Respect is a large issue. Respect for yourself, for your subject, for your client, for your fellow photographers, etc.

We have had a number of threads, giving out about IPPA, NAIP, and such. But, the theory or ideal behind these associations is actually good. To have a code of ethics. How they do this, well, seems to be well off the mark.

I deal with a number of organisations and associations on a weekly basis. This ranges from shooting alongside other photographers (Sportsfile, Inpho, etc) to seeking accreditation from bodies such as FAI, IRFU, etc.

In some ways, I think the IRFU have a good approach. You apply for accreditation per event. If you don't show, you're blacklisted. If you break the rules for image usage, you're blacklisted. If you don't follow their guidelines, yes, you're blacklisted. Personally, I'd never request accreditation for anything if I had even a hint that I couldn't attend. And, if, for some reason, I can't attend after getting accredited, I notify the body. They can then accredit someone else on their list. Most events only have a limited number of spaces for photographers.

On here, I recently saw people trading their press accreditation for events. If a professional body or organisation saw this, or knew of this, then getting access will only get harder and harder, making it much more difficult for people to gain access. That would be a great shame.

But again, this goes back to respect. And, as I said, more and more people seem to lack this respect and don't act in a professional manner.

Is this a rant? Maybe, but I hope it opens the topic up for discussion.

thebaz

if he has to fraud people into thinking he took the images himself , he hardly warrants the term photographer - tosser would be a better name

kensutz

I've noticed a lack or respect for the rules when it comes to shooting sports. As I do agency work, we know that if we step over the line then it will become harder for us to work again for the club/organisation.

It's only recently that our agency fell victim to an over subscription and a mix up ensued. What angered us is that after a bit of detective work we found out that a person applied for accreditation and never bothered to show up. This same person is also known for trading his applications and giving them to other people.

The result is that these 2 people who have been trading were reported to the officials. When you try to make a living and someone else ruins it for you, it's not fair. Like Paul said, it shows a distinct lack of respect for anyone in the profession and makes a mockery of their talents.

TinyExplosions

Paulw wrote: »

We have had a number of threads, giving out about IPPA, NAIP, and such. But, the theory or ideal behind these associations is actually good. To have a code of ethics. How they do this, well, seems to be well off the mark.

At the risk of going wildly off topic, but does that mean that there is a gap there for some sort of group (I'm hesitant to use the word organisation) that can help sort this stuff out.

I'm thinking along the lines of Bike Pure, in that it's a free initiative to join, and that publishes a clear set of guidelines and ethics. The lack of fees could help it be more relevant, but at the outset it could simply be a published set of ethics and guidelines for the public to see, and photogs to follow

Or maybe I'm talking out my arse, it is Thursday after all!

Paulw

TinyExplosions wrote: »

At the risk of going wildly off topic, but does that mean that there is a gap there for some sort of group (I'm hesitant to use the word organisation) that can help sort this stuff out.

I don't know. Maybe yes, and no.

There are already loads of associations and organisations. I only named two.

How do you enforce a code of ethics? The paid organisations can simply remove the memeber from their group.

But, surely, there should be no need for this? People should act professionally, without having to be told? Afterall, ultimately, they are damaging something they have a vested interest in?

More and more, it seems that organisations/associations are getting stricter, because they are having to deal with more slips in their rules. That just makes things harder for those starting out.

pixbyjohn

Paul and Ken, points well made. I agree that standards are falling but its in all aspects of life really. We are living in the "instant age" and there are many people who do things without thinking how it affects others. It is good that you have started this discussion and hopefully others will see how respect is very important.

TinyExplosions

Paulw wrote: »

I don't know. Maybe yes, and no.

There are already loads of associations and organisations. I only named two.

How do you enforce a code of ethics? The paid organisations can simply remove the memeber from their group.

But, surely, there should be no need for this? People should act professionally, without having to be told? Afterall, ultimately, they are damaging something they have a vested interest in?

The idea isn't about enforcing the rules, it's about making them very clear to all concerned, so that the public etc can easily see the behavior that is expected of them. In much the same way as the paid organisations, you can have a list of photographers who have signed up, and can remove them if they go against the published guidelines. It's more about making things more transparent, without having the infighting and political wrangling that seems to go on in the Irish organisations

mehfesto

I hate photographers who can't follow simple rules.

I was recently thrown out of a gig because some photographer was taking pictures from the balcony after the first three songs. The bouncers were informed, but as he didn't know which one of us it was, he tossed us all out. It wasn't as much that I missed the gig as that the bouncers threw me out - they have the impression I'm a potential troublemaker now and I'm not!

It's a real shame. I'm not making any money for this field yet, and I act in the most professional way I can (I want to leave a good impression and get in good with the right people!:D), but in my field where it's mostly amateurs, it can be a nightmare.

I'd love to see an accepted code of standards, but given that anyone can pick up an SLR and claim to be a photographer, it would be impossible to enforce. At least in my field.

But selling someone elses images is disgusting. I hope they get what they're due...

Ricky91t

thebaz wrote: »

if he has to fraud people into thinking he took the images himself , he hardly warrants the term photographer - tosser would be a better name

That's putting it nicely TBH.

mrboswell

I agree that there is a lack of common decency and it is creeping into society more and more - its just a bit obvious when you see people behaving in a selfish, blasé way.
They should rightly be reported to relevant authorities and no doubt if people took cognesance of the effects on other people there would be no issues...

dave66

Paulw wrote: »

People should act professionally, without having to be told? Afterall, ultimately, they are damaging something they have a vested interest in?

That's it in a nut shell.

Paulw wrote: »

More and more, it seems that organisations/associations are getting stricter, because they are having to deal with more slips in their rules. That just makes things harder for those starting out.

I feel the whole area of professional vs amateur is an area fraught with problems. In fact, evening find the line at which a person moves from amateur to professional is not easy, it's to simple to say that a professional is somebody who makes their living solely from photography, as this does not take into account people who would like to do that but are starting out. I'm an amateur, I make no bones about it, I do not make any money from my photography. This being confirmation/communion season, I have had a few people I know ask me to take photo's of their day and offered to pay me, my answer is, if you are parting with money then you expect and deserve a professional - I'm not a professional, here are the names of a few in the area talk to them. At times like this, when everyone is suffering (some more than others), I know there is a temptation to try boost earnings by touting for work, for me personally, that's not on - (A) I have good equipment, I can take good shots, but I am not a professional (B) By doing so, it is possible if not likely that I am taking money from somebody who earns their living solo from photography.

I was at a wedding (as a guest) a few years ago, it was a close friend of my wife getting married. When I saw the "photographer", I smelled a rat, it was patently obvious to me that he was not a professional, his kit alone screamed amateur in disguise. I made some discrete enquiries to check if it was a friend of bride/groom - no, I was told, he's the official photographer. I just had a bad feeling so I did shoot more film than I planned. As it turned out my fears were well founded, the resulting album was appalling, so I produced the 5 rolls of unprocessed films and made them a gift to the couple - they after all were one of the injured parties (the other injured party was a pro wedding photographer who didn't get the gig as the rank amateur under cut his price), my "deal" with the couple was that they pay for processing, printing and they take what they want or dump the lot. I'm told that they used a fair few of my shots for friends/family and themselves, they got their money back from the amateur and their day was partially salvaged.

I do wonder though, if somebody wants to make that transition from amateur to professional, how does one do that in a fair and ethical way? I think amateurs must be ethical & professional in their treatment of the "client", they need to be upfront about their experience level especially where money is changing hands. An amateur taking some family portraits is one thing, they can be redone if necessary, but putting themselves forward for weddings ..... that I don't understand.

They other side is where the work is not commissioned by a client, but it's where you have taken and image that somebody really likes and wants to purchase, I feel there is probably less conflict in that area.

Anyhow, just my 2c,

hbr

Paulw wrote: »

Is this a rant? Maybe, but I hope it opens the topic up for discussion.

I don't think it is a rant. You raise some valid and interesting points.

A few weeks ago I found an Irish photographer, who was using (and selling) images belonging to someone else. This very much annoyed me, since the images in use belong to Danny (Valentia).

Copyright on these pictures probably belongs to Danny's estate. Presumably his
immediate family. Do they know about this alleged infringement? You or I may
be annoyed by this kind of behaviour, but we are not in a position to do anything
about it. The copyright owner can take action against the thief if they choose
to do so.

We live in an age where copyright theft is more or less taken for granted.
Images and text are copied and pasted without giving it a second thought.
Many people use pirate copies of expensive software like Photoshop. The
usual defense for this behaviour is: "if they didn't charge so much, I would
buy it". The same applies to music and movies.

But, surely, there should be no need for this? People should act professionally, without having to be told?

Your faith in human nature is quite touching! Unfortunately, many people
will choose to sh1t on their own doorstep, even when it is blindingly obvious
that it is against their own interests.

Paulw

hbr wrote: »

Copyright on these pictures probably belongs to Danny's estate. Presumably his
immediate family. Do they know about this alleged infringement?

Your faith in human nature is quite touching! Unfortunately, many people
will choose to sh1t on their own doorstep, even when it is blindingly obvious
that it is against their own interests.

No, I didn't inform Danny's family. I found the images the week after Danny passed away, and I didn't feel it would be right to trouble them with the information at such a traumatic time in their lives.

I did contact the photographer in question and contacted his hosting service. They removed his whole gallery, and he later put back a gallery without Danny's images.

Yeah, maybe my faith in human nature isn't exactly realistic. I guess I expect others to act in a manner in which I (I hope) act.

dave66 wrote: »

I feel the whole area of professional vs amateur is an area fraught with problems.

I was making a great effort not to have this discussion. It shouldn't be about professional (paid photographer) V amateur (unpaid/hobby photographer). Both should act professionally. Both should show equal respect. This applies to weddings, portraits, sport, journalism, and every other aspect.

At anything I photograph, I will show the same respect to those I know are full-time professionals as I will to those I know are hobby amateurs. Me, well, I'm in the middle. Semi-pro. If people ask questions, I will always answer them to the best of my ability. I've had people approach me, and ask advice at events. I take the time to answer and help as best I can. Obviously, if I'm photographing an event and don't have time, I'll say so, but will qualify that by telling them to contact me later.

It's not long ago when I was a total amateur starting off. I made contacts, made connections, talked to people and eventually made my way in to the sports arena. I've done my very best to stay on the good side of other photographers and the organisations I deal with. But, I've seen others who don't show the same professionalism. It annoys me. Yeah, if it bothers me, I will have no problem saying it to their face. Because, at the end of the day, people acting unprofessionally hurt themselves, as well as those trying to break their way in.

At least it is good to see that many of us have the same view.

hoganpoly

Speaking for myself I endeavour to act in a professional manner at all times showing respect where its due,but there seems to be an element of being two-faced creeping into this topic,I take people at face value and would never dream to judge someone fully until I knew them for a very long time,making assumptions on individuals you hardly know is foolish hardly professional:)Hindsight is a great attribute and the full facts invaluable..Lets all move on and get snapping with our freshly cleaned equipment

dave66

Paulw wrote: »

I was making a great effort not to have this discussion. It shouldn't be about professional (paid photographer) V amateur (unpaid/hobby photographer). Both should act professionally. Both should show equal respect. This applies to weddings, portraits, sport, journalism, and every other aspect.

My apologies if I was leading the discussion along another path.

I wholeheartedly agree, no matter whether paid photographer, unpaid/hobby photographer both should act professionally.

Paulw

hoganpoly wrote: »

Speaking for myself I endeavour to act in a professional manner at all times showing respect where its due,but there seems to be an element of being two-faced creeping into this topic,I take people at face value and would never dream to judge someone fully until I knew them for a very long time,making assumptions on individuals you hardly know is foolish hardly professional:)Hindsight is a great attribute and the full facts invaluable.

The discussion here is about being professional. This should be how everyone acts. I don't see any posts or comments about people being two-faced. But, I guess people read things in to some posts, rather than reading what is being said.

People are judged on their actions, especially when actions are public.

I take everyone at face value too. I don't judge people, but I do get annoyed when I see people acting unprofessionally, especially when it may impact on what I do. As I said, if I've a problem with someone, I'll say it to their face, as I have done in the past. But, those whole topic of professionalism seems to have brought up again recently, in a number of threads, discussions and areas (twitter, facebook, boards, PI, DPReview, etc).

Lack of respect, lack of professionalism, and lack of following the rules is what causes more problems.

The perception of photographers is very much in the spotlight these days. The UK is a prime example, where it seems that every photographer is viewed as a potential terrorist. When photographers act unprofessionally, in any manner, it harms the general perception of photographers, and thats bad for everyone who likes photography.

PCPhoto

from my understanding of the situation:

its not about photographers acting professional ....its about the media organisations ...well... being more organised:

I've worked as a freelance photojournalist for over 10yrs - in Cork and in Dublin, I've done news, sport, concerts, photocalls etc etc....on plenty of occasions throughout the early years I've been told sorry you've applied too late (and from talking to other photographers who applied after me .... they were given passes)

Should all media organisations shun the freelancer.... or do we allow anyone with a DSLR and ability to request a photo pass the same access as those who are being paid (and are under pressure) to get the best image possible ?

no offence to some of the posters here - some are full-time professionals, some are not..... do we restrict access to full-time professionals ONLY ? after all why else would someone want to goto a game unless they are making money from it....for the love of the game.... if you love the game ... why not sit in the stands and enjoy it - a photographer cant enjoy the game and take photos at the same time (from my experience anyway)

I've limited my applications to various sporting events as I don't have much of a market to sell the images - INPHO/SPORTSFILE cover most games for the Irish media.... so why do the Irish papers send their own photographers on occasion ? why do freelancers turn up and take photos ?

as regards arranging another photographer to take your place - I see no problem ..... as long as the photographer is doing what he/she is supposed to .... turn up ...sit down...take pics (send out - if required), everyone has to get experience of a big sporting occassion -

In the past I've arranged passes for photo enthusiasts, people trying to get into the game ...or with an interest in music/sports.....as a result I would have to work harder - but the other person would be able to experience taking photos at a professional level.

I have photographed in Switzerland, Holland, Serbia, England, Scotland, Ireland and Northern Ireland (and probably some other countries) .... I dont begrudge anyone who can get access to a game, I've talked to some photographers at games who were taking pics 'cos they know the manager ...or friends with someone on the team (at international events).... or they live with the girl that organises the passes !!! (best one yet)

at the end of the day - if people complain about other photographers you are only highlighting the issue and once the issue is highlighted .... restrictions come in across the board.... the organisers wont care if you were the best behaved photographer for the last 5yrs...as long as you meet the new rules !!

Paulw

PCPhoto wrote: »

its not about photographers acting professional ....its about the media organisations ...well... being more organised:

Should all media organisations shun the freelancer.... or do we allow anyone with a DSLR and ability to request a photo pass the same access as those who are being paid (and are under pressure) to get the best image possible ?

Indeed, about gaining access is down to the organisations. It is ultimately up to them who they let in, when, where and why. But, when you do get access, you should act professionally. That was my initial point. Whenever/however/whatever you do, you should act professionally. Abide by any rules, restrictions, etc that are laid down.

PCPhoto wrote: »

no offence to some of the posters here - some are full-time professionals, some are not..... do we restrict access to full-time professionals ONLY ? after all why else would someone want to goto a game unless they are making money from it....for the love of the game.... if you love the game ... why not sit in the stands and enjoy it - a photographer cant enjoy the game and take photos at the same time (from my experience anyway)

Agreed. You see very little of the game sitting behind a camera. You only see through the lens and miss a lot of what is going on. It is certainly up to the organisations as to who they allow in. While Sportsfile and Inpho hold that vast majority of press access for sports images in Ireland, there are also a number of other outlets for the freelance photographer - clubs, foreign media outlets, local/regional papers, etc.

PCPhoto wrote: »

In the past I've arranged passes for photo enthusiasts, people trying to get into the game ...or with an interest in music/sports.....as a result I would have to work harder - but the other person would be able to experience taking photos at a professional level.

Likewise, I've taken a number of people (including some boards members here) on shoots at sporting events, and arranged pitch side access. We all have to start somewhere. But, due to tighter restrictions this is getting harder to do.

PCPhoto wrote: »

I dont begrudge anyone who can get access to a game

Neither do I. But, when people do get access, they should respect the rules and regulations. It's when they don't that problems are caused for everyone else.

PCPhoto wrote: »

at the end of the day - if people complain about other photographers you are only highlighting the issue and once the issue is highlighted .... restrictions come in across the board.

That is becoming more and more evident. More sports organisations (the ones I deal with) are putting tighter and tighter access requirements on photographers, and these will only get worse, making it harder for those starting off. It's when people don't abide by the rules that organisations clamp down even more, on everyone.

PCPhoto

those of us who have experienced international matches from the pitch will agree that the amount of people taking photos on the pitch - who are not actually working press - is getting larger and larger.....

Paul - Do you earn money from the international games ??? I dont, I go sometimes because its fun and allows me to get in free - I'm a professional and do my job in a professional manner, I still send out pics to the papers in an effort to make money - something which I dont see a lot of the photographers there doing.

an example of my own personal experience:

a good few years ago - managed to get told that I was granted a pass for an Ireland international ..... the morning of the game I was out taking pics of a schoolboy soccer game, which I was hired to do .... and I return back to my car..... no keys .... where are the keys ????

laptop is inside......other lenses are inside.... what to to ....what to do .... WAIT !!! ... how am I supposed to goto the game ? .... what about my stuff.... what about my pass ??? who do I call ... what do I do ?

Ended out phoning my GF to collect me on her bike.... drop my camera gear at her place (the parts that I was using).... get her to drop me to my place...spare key.....return back to car .... never gonna make it to the game....kick off an hour away.... quick phonecall to another photographer who was covering the game - asked him to pick up my pass - he already had his own but was asking him to take mine , I wasnt going to make it .... but if the pass was collected then I might have a chance of getting another - couldnt mess it up first time - it took me aaages to get a pass.

so... does this mean I should have been reported and blacklisted ? .... nothing I could do about loosing my keys (which were never found by the way)

if a photographer organises a pass ..... and then 12hours before the game.... they get a call asking them to do a job, do they say .... sorry I cant I'm going to the game ..... in todays economy.... would you turn down money to goto a game and photo it - if you were not getting paid ???

What can the organisations do if someone doesnt turn up ? ..... if the pass isnt collected - blacklist them/no passes for 3/4/5 applications ????... if the pass is collected then ... should be no problem, the pass is used by a photographer ....isnt it ?

Calina

I think professional is a loaded word to some extent.

My view is that there is a standard of behaviour - call it politeness if you like - that is called for - that in all walks of life is becoming increasingly less common.

We have an interest in photography here which is possibly why we notice it more specifically with respect to photography. There is a general tendency here in this era to be selfish and self serving. I think that's at the root of this problem.

There is an element of respect required and it's not really just a question of professional or not profession really.

Paulw

PCPhoto wrote: »

Paul - Do you earn money from the international games ??? I dont, I go sometimes because its fun and allows me to get in free - I'm a professional and do my job in a professional manner, I still send out pics to the papers in an effort to make money - something which I dont see a lot of the photographers there doing.

What can the organisations do if someone doesnt turn up ? ..... if the pass isnt collected - blacklist them/no passes for 3/4/5 applications ????... if the pass is collected then ... should be no problem, the pass is used by a photographer ....isnt it ?

In most cases, like you, I find it hard to make money from international games.

It certainly does happen that things crop up and you can't make an event. Last time that happened to me, I contacted the organisation and let them know I couldn't make it. It hasn't been held against me.

For many events, there are limited number of spaces. Obviously, the larger the venue, the bigger that number is. But, in many situations, the organisers would have a list of photographers who weren't granted access. One of these can then be given the vacant slot.

Even the other night a situation arose. A photographer I know couldn't make it to cover an event. I said I could, so he contacted the organisers, explained that he couldn't attend, but requested that I attend in his place. Access granted for me, and I covered the event on his behalf.

That, IMHO, is acting professionally.

I know at Leinster Rugby, they have been keeping track of who applies and who attends events. At this stage, the press officer knows us by name. At the last game, we were told that anyone who broke the rules would be asked to leave. Up to now, they would have just had a word, and said to be careful next time. Now, they have changed approach and are becoming very strict.

We (the photographers) don't make the rules, but when we know the rules, we should abide by them. Do you not agree??

hoganpoly

Ok look If I attend any event I sit where I am told in fact I give preference to the agency guys as to not impede their view,I have only been attending games less than a year now seeking accreditation and been refused a lot and i dont mind that ,organisers are of course going to give accreditation to the agencies and the regular freelancers ,lets not fool ourselves here tat none of us have gained access to an event using someone elses name or are we that narrow minded.The case in question was about acting professionally and to date I have honoured that code to the best of my ability

PCPhoto

Paulw wrote: »

Indeed, about gaining access is down to the organisations. It is ultimately up to them who they let in, when, where and why. But, when you do get access, you should act professionally. That was my initial point. Whenever/however/whatever you do, you should act professionally. Abide by any rules, restrictions, etc that are laid down.

its the organisers fault !! - they give out passes, they are responsible who they give them to, nothing to do with the fact that everyone under the sun applies for a pass !!

Likewise, I've taken a number of people (including some boards members here) on shoots at sporting events, and arranged pitch side access. We all have to start somewhere. But, due to tighter restrictions this is getting harder to do.

there are tighter restrictions because the organisations can see an increase in photographers and the people they bring with them... so we're all to blame !!

Neither do I. But, when people do get access, they should respect the rules and regulations. It's when they don't that problems are caused for everyone else.

I dont understand this - when people do get access they need to respect the rules - meaning ???? every photographer I've seen at games does what they are supposed to ...sit...take pics and go home !!

That is becoming more and more evident. More sports organisations (the ones I deal with) are putting tighter and tighter access requirements on photographers, and these will only get worse, making it harder for those starting off. It's when people don't abide by the rules that organisations clamp down even more, on everyone.

there are tighter restrictions because soooo many people are falling into the "acceptable" group ...so they need to change the rules..... people know how to apply for a "media" pass - which should be restricted to actual working media, the best way for people to start would be an apprenticeship with a photographer (or work experience).... I make 100% of my money from photography, I am dependant on earning money from my pictures ....why should an organisation allow a part-time photographer* into an event - the more photographers at an event the less likely I will make money from it.

*= no offence to any part-time photographers

PCPhoto

Paulw wrote: »

For many events, there are limited number of spaces. Obviously, the larger the venue, the bigger that number is. But, in many situations, the organisers would have a list of photographers who weren't granted access. One of these can then be given the vacant slot.

from my experience any photographers on the "waiting list" would not be available at a moments notice - ie. at kick off if a photographer doesnt turn up - suffers a heart attack or doesnt make it to the game, flat tyre, was assaulted etc etc (I know another photographer recently got a call from a newspaper asking him for pics from XXX job ... he replied I'm in the hospital had a heart attack will send the pics later !!)

Even the other night a situation arose. A photographer I know couldn't make it to cover an event. I said I could, so he contacted the organisers, explained that he couldn't attend, but requested that I attend in his place. Access granted for me, and I covered the event on his behalf.

That, IMHO, is acting professionally.

problem is ... can you do that before the event and without the organisers mobile number ...outside of office hours.

I know at Leinster Rugby, they have been keeping track of who applies and who attends events. At this stage, the press officer knows us by name. At the last game, we were told that anyone who broke the rules would be asked to leave. Up to now, they would have just had a word, and said to be careful next time. Now, they have changed approach and are becoming very strict.
We (the photographers) don't make the rules, but when we know the rules, we should abide by them. Do you not agree??

I wouldnt know - I've NEVER been granted a pass by Leinster have only applied a number of times and to be honest I wouldnt make any money from it, I think if a pass is granted the photographer should turn up - BUT - if the photographer cant turn up for whatever reason he/she should be perfectly ok to send/organise a replacement, once the pass is picked up everything should be ok

Paulw

hoganpoly wrote: »

The case in question was about acting professionally and to date I have honoured that code to the best of my ability

There is no specific "case in question" since my topic was about a number of issues, which started with someone using other's photos.

I know that at any event I've been to, that you're at, you've acted professionally. I have never made any claims otherwise. In fact, to the best of my own knowledge, everyone who's posted to this thread has too (and I hope I have too).

PCPhoto wrote: »

I dont understand this - when people do get access they need to respect the rules - meaning ???? every photographer I've seen at games does what they are supposed to ...sit...take pics and go home !!

What I mean is people not sitting where they're supposed to sit, sitting where they shouldn't sit, going to areas of the pitch they shouldn't, going on to the pitch when they shouldn't, people using images in ways that breach their license agreement that they agree to to gain access, and such things.

PCPhoto wrote: »

I make 100% of my money from photography, I am dependant on earning money from my pictures ....why should an organisation allow a part-time photographer* into an event - the more photographers at an event the less likely I will make money from it.

*= no offence to any part-time photographers

I'm one of the part-time photographers. I don't make my living from it, but do attempt to make as much money as I can from my photography. I try to sell to the papers and organisations. I don't give away images for free, since I know that will devalue my own work as well as everyone else's.

More and more, people are trying to suppliment their income, and photography is one method. I would, almost always, give priority to those I know are full-time photographers, but of course, respect goes both ways.

Paulw

PCPhoto wrote: »

from my experience any photographers on the "waiting list" would not be available at a moments notice - ie. at kick off if a photographer doesnt turn up

I'm more talking about when you know in advance (hours/days) of the event. Obviously just before an event, there's almost nothing anyone can do.

And, for most events, you should have the contact details of someone in charge of accreditation. I think I'd have the mobile for the accreditation officer for the FAI, IRFU, Leinster Rugby, etc. I always make a point of getting a contact number (mostly this is supplied anyway), just in case.

PCPhoto

I dont have contact details for the organisations - I have some email addresses, no mobile numbers (unless they are on an email somewhere in my inbox)

What I mean is people not sitting where they're supposed to sit, sitting where they shouldn't sit, going to areas of the pitch they shouldn't, going on to the pitch when they shouldn't, people using images in ways that breach their license agreement that they agree to to gain access, and such things.

I know for concerts I have lost interest in going because of stupid licence agreements - only allowed to send to one publication for print on a specific date..... a few years ago it was turn up and whoever gets the best image into the papers makes the money .... proper freelance work !! ....problem is the people that create the "licence agreements" dont understand the runnings of a freelance photographer - or are given advice from photographers with their own interests at heart - in the case of sports (IRFU) events... a photographer applies for a pass, if he doesnt go he's off the list.... thats right way to do it....however, if he/she arranges another to take his place...no problems...pass is not wasted !! ... I have been the person taking a free pass on a couple of occasions.

Dont get me wrong I sometimes arrange a pass to stuff ...just so I can go and photo them....I'm debating whether to goto Oxegen this year or not - I probably wont - but am tempted 'cos when eminem was here last time he refused press photographers !!...no press photos allowed !! ....I was very peeeved at him for that.

I'm one of the part-time photographers. I don't make my living from it, but do attempt to make as much money as I can from my photography. I try to sell to the papers and organisations. I don't give away images for free, since I know that will devalue my own work as well as everyone else's.

More and more, people are trying to suppliment their income, and photography is one method. I would, almost always, give priority to those I know are full-time photographers, but of course, respect goes both ways.

the official line on this (according to unions :rolleyes:) ... you are taking money that I could have earned !!! , but my own version is that whenever we cross paths - I'm not there primarily to earn money - so to me.... yer just another photographer (part-time or full time - doesnt matter) - In the last few years I have not been able to compete against INPHO/SPORTSFILE - as they have encouraged the papers to use their images as the papers have already paid for them.

damiendar

I guess this has moved on from Paul's first post but it has become very interestin , I did not renew my LoI accred this year, didnt apply for the upcoming International friendly games giving the boxing a wide birth very wide . I actally no longer shoot professional sports of any sort as there was no outlet for the shots I took. so I figured what was the point. I now think there is no such thing as a freelance photographer in the real terms as PCHOTO said when the "best photo " made the sport section or the news section not becasue its free or from the big two different times .. Maybe its the end.

Borderfox

Sports/Newspapers have sold their souls to the agencies, I dont even bother applying for any of the rugby/soccer/etc, even around RDS time in August you see all the agency boys/girls that havent a clue what they are doing supplying pure crap to their customers while everybody else has to fight it out over the scraps.

PCPhoto

Borderfox wrote: »

Sports/Newspapers have sold their souls to the agencies, I dont even bother applying for any of the rugby/soccer/etc, even around RDS time in August you see all the agency boys/girls that havent a clue what they are doing supplying pure crap to their customers while everybody else has to fight it out over the scraps.

or have the agencies created a monopoly ?

there is always a need for news images to be supplied from any source - the agencies cant be everywhere !!! (can they :eek:)

I've gotten a few boardsies published in National papers by simply sending (ok, cropping and adding captions) and sending it through to the picture desks.... havent a clue if they've been paid yet or not - but have told them who and how to invoice.

Agencies offer the papers a complete service - for cheap, from what I was told one of the big 2 sports agencies was commanding 100K a year per paper...in fairness they have a photographer or two at all major irish events abroad....however they are limited on an international scale and wont ever succeed compared to international agencies....or wont be able to compete if international agencies really pushed into the markets here....customer loyalty (from the papers) would really be tested !!!

at the end of the day - its getting tougher to get published, the agencies were worried in recent years that they couldnt demand such high amounts - UNLESS their images were constantly hitting....so they reminded the papers that they have already paid for the big 2...so why not use them and save money on paying a freelancer.

Borderfox

Bar a written in stone law/code of ethics I cant see what will make people behave more professionally.

It can swing both ways, I sometimes do different sports for magazines and have to tread carefully on other Pro's turf. I always introduce myself first and let them know where I am from and ask whats the applicable ways to shoot. I have done Horse shows where people have turned up and started shooting (last one was two lads started shooting the jumping) I asked the owner to tell them to stop or ask them to leave, their intention was to take the pictures and put them up on the internet to sell, which is what they told me when they bothered to come up to talk to me. I met a press guy (local paper) and he introduced himself and told me he wouldnt be in the way.

Same as life I have met good and bad people, the good ones get respect and the bad ones get the monopod in the head

stcstc

border

i think your right

i dont think its about pros or amateurs, its about people being decent or prats.

Paulw

stcstc wrote: »

i dont think its about pros or amateurs, its about people being decent or prats.

I noticed at a recent wedding, where people (amateurs) were constantly getting in the way of the professional (hired) photographer. It just showed a lack of respect. I always let the hired photographer get his/her shots before I take my own (when there as the guest), but when I am there as the designated photographer, I always ask others to just wait until I'm finished.

It's a two way street.

It's also been brought to my attention that a member on boards believes that this thread is specifically directed towards him. Well, for anyone reading all the posts, it's most certainly not about any one individual. This thread, as I stated from the very start, is about a whole range of issues, that seem to crop up frequently. Even in the recent thread about the free Canon service clinic, the issue of being professional (in attitude) was raised.

Maybe again, this does go back to a social issue?

jpb1974

I'd say it's the case that like most things 99% of the time people are civil and act respectful... and then the 1% of the time when something goes wrong it gets blown out of proportion... molehills and mountains spring to mind.

I can recall a similar type thread on another forum where it was suggested that photographers are going out to the Saltee Islands to purposely disturb nesting birds... when any time I've been there with large groups I know that 99.9% of the people that have travel out there to take photos do so with only the best of intent towards the birds... but people oft like to exaggerate the extent of issues to try and make more of a point.

I often wonder who these type of threads are directed at... if it's nobody on the forum and we're all assumed to be polite and respectful and act as professional humans then who's supposed to be reading this and taking anything from it?

Paulw

jpb1974 wrote: »

I often wonder who these type of threads are directed at... if it's nobody on the forum and we're all assumed to be polite and respectful and act as professional humans then who's supposed to be reading this and taking anything from it?

Everyone makes mistakes. EVERYONE. We learn from them. But, sometimes, we can learn from other people's mistakes, when we know about them.

Plus, it never hurts for us all to have a gentle reminder.

Photography, more and more, is in the spotlight. Street photography in the UK, media coverage of demonstrations, wedding photography gone wrong, etc. 10 years ago, would you have seen an article in the papers about a photographer? Unlikely, unless they won an award or something. Now, there are much more articles - photographers being stopped and arrested, photographers being taken to court, etc.

Like it or not, anyone with a camera is viewed differently. We are noticed more.

Yes, I could probably cite examples of individuals (including myself) who have done things wrong. I can name who used Danny's images and put his own watermark over them to claim they were his photos, I can name people who have publicly traded press passes, I could name people who break rules at events and then get a warning about it, of course. There's a thread on dpreview about someone wanting to get a press pass for a music event, a thread on flickr about someone who was banned by an event organiser because they previously used photos in breach of their license agreement. Look at any photography related site, and you will see articles and discussions of people doing things wrong and then others having to suffer the consequences.

But, it's not about a person, it's about photography, photographers and professionalism.

jpb1974

Everyone makes mistakes. EVERYONE. We learn from them. But, sometimes, we can learn from other people's mistakes, when we know about them.

Typical forum styled sweeping catch all generalisation... to ensure that we all fit into the "if you have a camera you must be a glowing example of humanity" box

Plus, it never hurts for us all to have a gentle reminder.

Well... I've read this thread and it hurts me... I moan at these mountain out of molehill threads suggesting how "everyone with a camera" should conduct themselves... that more often than not lead to nothing other than either some people agreeing, some people disagreeing, a few catch all quotes and phrases e.g. "I wonder is this a social issue" and ultimately very little else.

photography, photographers and professionalism

Again... will you just stop with the silly catch all generalisations... I take my camera out for enjoyment... and I don't believe that all of I sudden I have to morph into this glowing example of a human being just to satisfy the few mountain makers that want to blow up the 1 incident per every few million photos that are taken.

pixel 41

sure you have to be a pro to shoot football, and behave as one as well you guys make me laugh. When is that last time any of the pro/semipro/ and those that fool themselves thinking they are professional sport/agency photographers actually sold any League of Ireland football shots and made a nice weeks money from it.. now add up all the time spent going to matches all the money on camera equipment and on petrol Now was it worth it.;)

There are a few sport photographers in Ireland that make a living from it then there are the others that fool themselves and try to fool others....

Time to wake up lads.. or you could just continue to slag ofs those that shoot for fun and their own enjoyment..

tororosso

pixel 41 wrote: »

sure you have to be a pro to shoot football, and behave as one as well you guys make me laugh. When is that last time any of the pro/semipro/ and those that fool themselves thinking they are professional sport/agency photographers actually sold any League of Ireland football shots and made a nice weeks money from it.. now add up all the time spent going to matches all the money on camera equipment and on petrol Now was it worth it.;)

There are a few sport photographers in Ireland that make a living from it then there are the others that fool themselves and try to fool others....

Time to wake up lads.. or you could just continue to slag ofs those that shoot for fun and their own enjoyment..

Sports Photography is a really enjoyable field in photography and I would agree that there does appear to be a question about whether one can enjoy it as opposed to taking it seriously and making money off it. I have found that it is not that easy to get access to a lot of sporting events without the dastardly accreditation angle!

However your post seems to indicate that those that make money ,regardless of the returns on the effort put in, from photography are taking it too seriously and not shooting for fun. I would imagine that ALL Sports Photographers in the country do so for enjoyment and fun. I think what Paul W and others are saying is that if people go around acting the maggot then there will be less people who can get any experience at these sporting events as the organisers clamp down.

I know if I got access to an event I would be happy to take the advice of somebody who has been there before so I wouldnt do anything that might look badly on me and prevent me getting access in the future. I have enjoyed this thread as it was interesting to read about the issues that can lead to a photographer getting blacklisted from an event!

Blazer

I enjoy sports photography..the expressions that people make during the games can be hilarious..I'm strictly an amateur but my tag rugby team asked me to take a few pics during the matchs so they can look at them afterwards.
I give them copies if they want and if anyone wanted their picture taken it's no problem at all.
Basically I take a few pre-match pics and if I'm subbed take a few more to keep everyone happy.
So I get the practise and they get their pics..everyone's a winner.
I do this just to improve my photography..not to make money out of it.. I've zero interest in the side of it..it's just one of my many hobbies..so lighten up on hammering the amateurs..we're not all doing it for money.
As my boss says (pro) If he did it fulltime it wouldn't be a hobby anymore

tororosso

Berkut wrote: »

I enjoy sports photography..the expressions that people make during the games can be hilarious..I'm strictly an amateur but my tag rugby team asked me to take a few pics during the matchs so they can look at them afterwards.
I give them copies if they want and if anyone wanted their picture taken it's no problem at all.
Basically I take a few pre-match pics and if I'm subbed take a few more to keep everyone happy.
So I get the practise and they get their pics..everyone's a winner.
I do this just to improve my photography..not to make money out of it.. I've zero interest in the side of it..it's just one of my many hobbies..so lighten up on hammering the amateurs..we're not all doing it for money.
As my boss says (pro) If he did it fulltime it wouldn't be a hobby anymore

I agree with you to a point. If you are doing it and are happy to give the photos away then that is your choice and as long as you are enjoying it fair play. I used to do this but after a while I found that people took it for granted that they would always get the images for free. In addition, and more importantly to me, I found that people didnt place much value (not talking of financially here) in a photograph that they got for free. The reason for this was that they had so many to take and without having to pay they would naturally take them all. If somebody has to pay for something they will probably only take one or two photographs and will value it more.

This is where many photographers start off. You say that it is just a hobby and you are improving by doing it but the problem arises when you improve to a level where it is plain ridiculous giving the images away for free!!! Another thing is that if you mean to improve in sports photography then you will have to buy better gear and this is another reason not to give the photos away for nothing. The problem is that at that stage most people will expect stuff off you for nothing!!

Blazer

tororosso wrote: »

I agree with you to a point. If you are doing it and are happy to give the photos away then that is your choice and as long as you are enjoying it fair play. I used to do this but after a while I found that people took it for granted that they would always get the images for free. In addition, and more importantly to me, I found that people didnt place much value (not talking of financially here) in a photograph that they got for free. The reason for this was that they had so many to take and without having to pay they would naturally take them all. If somebody has to pay for something they will probably only take one or two photographs and will value it more.

This is where many photographers start off. You say that it is just a hobby and you are improving by doing it but the problem arises when you improve to a level where it is plain ridiculous giving the images away for free!!! Another thing is that if you mean to improve in sports photography then you will have to buy better gear and this is another reason not to give the photos away for nothing. The problem is that at that stage most people will expect stuff off you for nothing!!

Well my gear is pretty good already but I don't give away the original images only the cropped ones after i've tidied them up a small bit...and all i ask from them is to credit me for the photo whether it be on facebook etc.
Plus i still own the original..they're all happy to agree to this so far..
I'd much prefer people to have my pictures than no one to see them at all..
Things might change though ..you never know

Borderfox

I left the house and shot sports (cross country jumping) from 9am till 6 pm and made the wages for the week, very enjoyable too in weather like this

pixel 41 wrote: »

sure you have to be a pro to shoot football, and behave as one as well you guys make me laugh. When is that last time any of the pro/semipro/ and those that fool themselves thinking they are professional sport/agency photographers actually sold any League of Ireland football shots and made a nice weeks money from it.. now add up all the time spent going to matches all the money on camera equipment and on petrol Now was it worth it.;)

There are a few sport photographers in Ireland that make a living from it then there are the others that fool themselves and try to fool others....

Time to wake up lads.. or you could just continue to slag ofs those that shoot for fun and their own enjoyment..

PCPhoto

pixel 41 wrote: »

sure you have to be a pro to shoot football, and behave as one as well you guys make me laugh. When is that last time any of the pro/semipro/ and those that fool themselves thinking they are professional sport/agency photographers actually sold any League of Ireland football shots and made a nice weeks money from it.. now add up all the time spent going to matches all the money on camera equipment and on petrol Now was it worth it.;)

There are a few sport photographers in Ireland that make a living from it then there are the others that fool themselves and try to fool others....

Time to wake up lads.. or you could just continue to slag ofs those that shoot for fun and their own enjoyment..

I can see your point....pro, semi-pro and enthusiastic amateurs are very limited in making money from photographing the game at higher levels, INPHO/Sportsfile cant be everywhere so theres always a chance that one of us can get pics from a game and earn some money.
Personally I have limited my applications for some professional games - however .... this usually means that I sometimes dont get access on occasions...and on occasions have to reply on spare passes from agencies.

I have reduced my applications for international events because its not worth my while to goto the big games (and sometimes its hard to justify the extra couple of hours work on top of my full day) - however, sometimes in order to guarantee access to bigger games you have to keep applying to the smaller games.

there are plenty of us on boards who have made money from "airtricity league" games, some of us make money on schoolboy soccer/local GAA - however the internationals due to the presence of the agencies...but yet boards members still keep applying because they can.

non professionals are granted access to games which (in the future) will be restricted to full-time professionals, its only a matter of time before this happens simply because there are too many people attending big games.

Lets face it 2011, eufa cup final is in the Aviva.... how many will be applying simply because it will be the final ? I know I'll be applying (well...probably) ... but do I have any right to complain if a non-professional gets access ahead of me ?

Borderfox

PCPhoto wrote: »

but do I have any right to complain if a non-professional gets access ahead of me ?

Yes

Blazer

Borderfox wrote: »

Yes

Why? I'm curious to see your reasoning for this outside of the "I'm a professional so I should be picked ahead of the amatuers"..

Paulw

PCPhoto wrote: »

non professionals are granted access to games which (in the future) will be restricted to full-time professionals, its only a matter of time before this happens simply because there are too many people attending big games.

I know I'll be applying (well...probably) ... but do I have any right to complain if a non-professional gets access ahead of me ?

I think it's more going to be a case that those with a defined and specific outlet for images will get priority over those who are freelancing with the possibility of an outlet.

That seems more and more common.

There are a number of events that I shoot where I know I will have an outlet for the images. But, then there are also events that I cover with a hope that I can get someone to take/use the images (and not for free either).

I'm unsure if it's a full-time professional vs part-time vs amateur issue. It's more that the organisers/clubs want to make sure that they are getting better/confirmed exposure for their event (be it sport, social, editorial, etc).

Freddie59

Coming in a bit late here, but here goes. I can testify to what Paulw says about amateurs (I prefer to just describe them as guests with a camera) at weddings. I've done a few wedding DVDs/videos as favours for friends and family, and I always went out of my way to give the floor to the stills chap, constantly reminding those in shots to look at him - not me.

I developed a good rapport with all (bar two) of the photographers I met. These two are real beauts, with, at times, no manners, even going to standing in front of the Video camera to take shots that I was composing, even when away from the stills.

Call it social or whatever, but it's plain bad manners and rudeness. And unfortunately, some photographers (and they're in the minority) just don't know how to interact with other media recorders. If you're an ignoramus, you're an ignoramus. A sad fact. And that goes for those who crowd out both the stills and videographers at weddings.

magicbastarder

Berkut wrote: »

Why? I'm curious to see your reasoning for this outside of the "I'm a professional so I should be picked ahead of the amatuers"..

from the viewpoint of the sporting body in question, be it the IRFU, FAI, etc., if they are restricting the ability of pros to get good shots in favour of amateurs, that would be a very shortsighted policy; the sporting bodies in question should be striving to get good quality pics in high visibility publications, and that's not helped by giving precedence to someone who a) might not have the skill or equipment to get the shots, and b) has not got a good outlet for the shots.

PCPhoto

magicbastarder wrote: »

from the viewpoint of the sporting body in question, be it the IRFU, FAI, etc., if they are restricting the ability of pros to get good shots in favour of amateurs, that would be a very shortsighted policy; the sporting bodies in question should be striving to get good quality pics in high visibility publications, and that's not helped by giving precedence to someone who a) might not have the skill or equipment to get the shots, and b) has not got a good outlet for the shots.

the problem is more and more ...enthusiastic amateurs have bought professional level DSLRs and top quality lenses over the last couple of years....and have learned how to apply for media passes.

I agree that its the organisations fault - but they cant tell the difference between a full-time professional and someone who bought all the gear and shoots for fun. I've been at plenty of international events throughout the years...some people get access because they are friends with someone...or they know someone who knows someone who can get them a pass....others apply for passes because they want to get in free and show off to their friends.

Personally I do think that its almost time for ACTUAL working press photographers to ONLY get admittance to International events - this is just my opinion, I work hard and sometimes organise passes for international games in the hope of getting on spec images printed, I dont think its fair that someone who knows someone in the IRFU/FAI should get a pass ahead of a full-time professional...its happened a handful of times over the years (that I've beaten INPHO/Sportsfile and the other international agencies)....but at a national scale (Airtricity league/Magners league etc) ..... I've gotten plenty of images printed (I wouldnt be able to make a living from it - but it used to supplement my income)

Sports photography can earn a living for someone - but not if you intend covering the bigger games - INPHO/Sportsfile have created a monopoly of the Irish media which means a freelancer cant survive...its simple economics/business...push the small guy out of the frame (pun intended) and then you can charge what you want.

mrboswell

PCPhoto wrote: »

the problem is more and more ...enthusiastic amateurs have bought professional level DSLRs and top quality lenses over the last couple of years....and have learned how to apply for media passes.

I agree that its the organisations fault - but they cant tell the difference between a full-time professional and someone who bought all the gear and shoots for fun. I've been at plenty of international events throughout the years...some people get access because they are friends with someone...or they know someone who knows someone who can get them a pass....others apply for passes because they want to get in free and show off to their friends.

Personally I do think that its almost time for ACTUAL working press photographers to ONLY get admittance to International events - this is just my opinion, I work hard and sometimes organise passes for international games in the hope of getting on spec images printed, I dont think its fair that someone who knows someone in the IRFU/FAI should get a pass ahead of a full-time professional...its happened a handful of times over the years (that I've beaten INPHO/Sportsfile and the other international agencies)....but at a national scale (Airtricity league/Magners league etc) ..... I've gotten plenty of images printed (I wouldnt be able to make a living from it - but it used to supplement my income)

Sports photography can earn a living for someone - but not if you intend covering the bigger games - INPHO/Sportsfile have created a monopoly of the Irish media which means a freelancer cant survive...its simple economics/business...push the small guy out of the frame (pun intended) and then you can charge what you want.

I agree for the most part but to say it is an organisations fault is a difficult to agree with as ultimately its up to them, the competition organiser/regulator and also while they comply with sponsor requirements. If they have "x" amount of spaces they will fill the ones that they must and then give agencies preference over freelancers, who have preference over amateurs. If spaces are short its the amateurs that lose out first. Thats the way I see it anyway.

You are dead right with regard to the bigger games - there is a niche market for regional/local stuff and I suppose you might be lucky to get it.

Even the big 2 agencies in Ireland can suffer beyond the 2 main national papers. Similar agreements exist between Getty/AP and major international press so even the big 2 agencies in Ireland miss out from time to time.
Its more or less the same thing on a larger scale. The Irish market is their niche with a couple a few opportunities beyond Ireland.