If There Was A Referendum on Abortion Tomorrow, How Would You Vote?

K_user

First off I'll be honest and say that I haven't read the rest of this thread.

Secondly I'm not all that interested in arguing the point, as I'm sure it has been argued to death already. But since I've voted in the poll I figure I'd add my comment.

Abortion, no matter which way you swing it, is about killing babies.

You can argue the semantics, the social and personal issues/problems until the cows come home. But it still comes down to dead babies.

I'm sorry to say this but there are many ways to prevent pregnancy, but if an abortion is required then it comes down to taking a human life.

Its called an "Abortion" or a "Termination" because these words are clinical - the human element is removed.

*Edit:
The above was written in a strong/shock tone, simply as its a thing that I feel strongly about. I'm not here to flame, or to argue, its just how I feel. And being a father I feel that I have the right to comment on the whos/hows of how difficult pregnancy is on everyone be it planned or not. And how much being a parent changes your life. But killing someone just because they are inconvenient isn't how society works - so why is Abortion any different?

Mike 1972

Amazotheamazing wrote: »

Maybe 50 years ago being born at 24 weeks meant no chance of survival, now we now that that child does have a chance, however slight. I assume, perhaps incorrectly, that the viable age will continue to drop.

If and when abortion is legalised in Ireland it doesnt necessairly follow that the UK 24 weeks time limit would be adopted. It would probably be something like 12-18 weeks as is the norm in most European countries.

Klingon Hamlet

From Yahoo:

Twelve women travel to Britain every day for an abortion, latest figures have revealed.



The UK Department of Health said 4,422 patients gave an Irish address when they attended a clinic in England and Wales for a termination last year.


The Irish Family Planning Association called for the Government to legalise abortion despite the rates dropping for the eight successive years.


Niall Behan, chief executive, said: "While the small reduction was a step in the right direction, the harsh reality behind these statistics is that every day 12 women must make the journey to Britain to access safe and legal abortion services. These figures are compelling evidence of the need for domestic-based abortion services in Ireland. The Government's failure to face reality means that women's and girls' rights are being denied on a daily basis."


Data showed the number of women giving Irish addresses at UK abortion clinics has fallen from 6,673 in 2001 to 4,422. A further 134 travelled to clinics in the Netherlands last year - down from 351 in 2008.


The HSE Crisis Pregnancy Programme - formerly the Crisis Pregnancy Agency - said rates have dropped across all age groups, particularly among teenagers and women in their 20s.


Caroline Spillane, the programme director, said it will continue to focus on reducing the number of women experiencing crisis pregnancy and support those who have a crisis pregnancy. "We hope that these statistics are an indication that this work is having a real impact in reducing the instance of crisis pregnancy in Ireland," she added.


However the Irish Family Planning Association said the criminalisation of abortion was having little impact on abortion rates.


"It merely adds to the burden and stress suffered by women experiencing crisis pregnancies," Mr Behan continued. Since 1980 we know that at least 142,060 women travelled to Britain for abortion services. This figure highlights the hypocrisy of Ireland's laws on abortion, which are among the most restrictive in the world.


"Ireland's abortion laws were put under the spotlight at the European Court of Human Rights last December when the Court's 17-judge grand chamber heard a challenge from three women living in Ireland. All three had travelled to Britain to access termination services and argued that Ireland's laws jeopardised their health and wellbeing in violation of their rights under the European Convention on Human Rights. A judgment on this case is expected later this year."

philologos

4,000 is surprisingly low in comparison to the Welsh figure of nearly 9,000 for a population of 3 million. The fall in abortions in these statistics is also a very good sign. I hope it continues to drop, and I hope we do more to help it drop rather than increase. I would see this as good grounds for keeping the law as it is.

England and Wales abortion statistics published today in the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/may/25/abortion-statistics-map#

dvpower

Jakkass wrote: »

4,000 is surprisingly low in comparison to the Welsh figure of nearly 9,000 for a population of 3 million. The fall in abortions in these statistics is also a very good sign. I hope it continues to drop, and I hope we do more to help it drop rather than increase. I would see this as good grounds for keeping the law as it is.

England and Wales abortion statistics published today in the Guardian:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2010/may/25/abortion-statistics-map#

The Irish figures are always going to be inaccurate because they don't account for women going to other juristictions and they rely on women reporting their home address as being in Ireland.
Unfortunetly, in a recession, we can expect an increase, not a decrease in the trend.

Lollipops23

Jakkass wrote: »

The fall in abortions in these statistics is also a very good sign. I hope it continues to drop, and I hope we do more to help it drop rather than increase.

I agree with you-I would hope that less and less women woud find themselves in the situation to begin with,that people wold educate themselves regarding contraception and take less risks.
However, the fact remains that accidents will always happen,women will continue to get raped and there will always be unwanted pregnancies for whatever reasons.
We can always dream and hope for a world where terminations are not required,but that world will never exist.

Hazlittle

Lollipops23 wrote: »

I agree with you-I would hope that less and less women woud find themselves in the situation to begin with,that people wold educate themselves regarding contraception and take less risks.
However, the fact remains that accidents will always happen,women will continue to get raped and there will always be unwanted pregnancies for whatever reasons.
We can always dream and hope for a world where terminations are not required,but that world will never exist.

Accidents for adults themselves to atone for. If you make a mistake then tough. You alone have to deal with the responsibility. Regards to rape, we need tough law enforcement and self defense taught.

Millicent

Hazlittle wrote: »

Accidents for adults themselves to atone for. If you make a mistake then tough. You alone have to deal with the responsibility. Regards to rape, we need tough law enforcement and self defense taught.

So it's a woman's responsibilty to make sure she doesn't need an abortion after being raped? I'm all for tougher law enforcement but to imply that women learn to defend themselves to stop rape is naive at best.

gsxr1

Im against murdering wee babies. Under any circumstances.

Simi

Hazlittle wrote: »

Accidents for adults themselves to atone for. If you make a mistake then tough. You alone have to deal with the responsibility. Regards to rape, we need tough law enforcement and self defense taught.

Wow...:eek: That is perhaps the single most laughable statement i've ever read in an abortion debate. I mean there's simpleminded & then there's that.

bnt

I find it truly scary that people are listening to the Catholic Church on any matter relating to sex, or human relations in general. We're talking about a bunch of men who a) chose to exclude themselves from normal human relations, in defiance of nature, yet b) assert moral authority over the lives of normal people. We're talking about people who say things like this:

She consented in the murder of an unborn child. There are some situations where the mother may in fact die along with her child.

Why do you listen to these people?

cynder

bnt wrote: »

I find it truly scary that people are listening to the Catholic Church on any matter relating to sex, or human relations in general. We're talking about a bunch of men who a) chose to exclude themselves from normal human relations, in defiance of nature, yet b) assert moral authority over the lives of normal people. We're talking about people who say things like this:

Why do you listen to these people?

Never been to mass, never listend to a priest, i have been in a church for a wedding and 2 christening but thats it. As i said before i've never been baptised into any faith.

positron

ash23 wrote: »

Eh, I had one. There wasn't a heartbeat. I didn't make that up for the craic like.
I had another 10 days later and there was a heartbeat. I have the scan pics. Maybe not in every case but in mine the day after I found out, there was no heartbeat, no limbs. Nothing but a black hole.

I wasn't making up that either - It hasn't been two weeks since we had a scan.

At 7 weeks and 1 day - the doctor, even with his crappy mini-scanner, could clearly show us the little heart flicker on the screen. Saw them myself, and have it on recorded too, if you want to see!!! And while there are no limbs formed at this stage, it's not just the black sack full of amniotic fluid either - he showed us the blob, and it measured at 1.2 cm.

Hazlittle

Millicent wrote: »

So it's a woman's responsibilty to make sure she doesn't need an abortion after being raped? I'm all for tougher law enforcement but to imply that women learn to defend themselves to stop rape is naive at best.

If you have any good ideas to prevent rape then by all means go ahead and start a thread about it.

Millicent

Hazlittle wrote: »

If you have any good ideas to prevent rape then by all means go ahead and start a thread about it.

How about the rapist takes responsibility for his actions or we educate people to understand that "no" means "no"? And I have no need to start a thread. You opened that door, I was just refuting the baselessness of that reasoning.

Hazlittle

Millicent wrote: »

How about the rapist takes responsibility for his actions or we educate people to understand that "no" means "no"? And I have no need to start a thread. You opened that door, I was just refuting the baselessness of that reasoning.

Rapists understand no means no. They just dont care.

philologos

dvpower wrote: »

The Irish figures are always going to be inaccurate because they don't account for women going to other juristictions and they rely on women reporting their home address as being in Ireland.
Unfortunetly, in a recession, we can expect an increase, not a decrease in the trend.

I doubt there are 5,000 more abortions going on in all fairness.

Lollipops23 wrote: »

We can always dream and hope for a world where terminations are not required,but that world will never exist.

I've conceded that in medical emergencies the best option is to save one life rather than lose two.

Hazlittle wrote:

Accidents for adults themselves to atone for. If you make a mistake then tough. You alone have to deal with the responsibility. Regards to rape, we need tough law enforcement and self defense taught.

I don't think I would say tough. It is a very difficult situation to be in, and I can appreciate how people might think abortion was a suitable option. However, people need to be informed about how they can keep the child alive first and foremost.

bnt wrote:

I find it truly scary that people are listening to the Catholic Church on any matter relating to sex, or human relations in general. We're talking about a bunch of men who a) chose to exclude themselves from normal human relations, in defiance of nature, yet b) assert moral authority over the lives of normal people. We're talking about people who say things like this:

I'm not listening to the RCC or even explicitly deriving my views from my own church the Church of Ireland. Rather, I am coming to my own conclusion based on what seems apparent to me.

This argument can be done without reference to any church.

Klingon Hamlet

No matter what your own opinions are, the figures speak for themselves. Over 70 percent of Boards voters believe those 4,000 women should have been allowed access to abortion facilities in their native country, than in a foreign country. If it were put to a referendum, I wonder would the majority still rule.

Then again, will it ever be put to a referendum?

And even so, who will vote? After all, divorce barely got voted through a while back. Are we indeed a backwards and cruel country?

seamus

Klingon Hamlet wrote: »

And even so, who will vote? After all, divorce barely got voted through a while back. Are we indeed a backwards and cruel country?

That was 14 years ago, when the Catholic church still held a lot of sway over this country. I suspect any referendum around divorce now would have a completely different result.

positron

I always wondered what makes an unborn human life so special?! :rolleyes: It's not like humans are not an endangered species or anything - close to 7 billion out there!

Hazlittle

positron wrote: »

I always wondered what makes an unborn human life so special?! :rolleyes: It's not like humans are not an endangered species or anything - close to 7 billion out there!

I'm an individualist not a collectivist. Human life isnt valued by market demand. It is above the value of anything else.

Nevyn

I think a referedum on the topic would be a lot different then the last one.

I couldn't vote in the 1992 one wasn't old enough and the 2002 one was 8 years ago.
I reckon those who can now vote given a good wording on the ballot would see a yes vote returned, which I think is why neither party want to have another referendum, as it will show up the generational divide and neither FF or FG have as many hard core voters in the under 35s as they do in the over 55s.

Same reason why they won't legislate for abortions which are legal.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland#1992_Constitutional_Referendum

Summary

No clear result or consensus has emerged. In theory, abortion is legal in Ireland if there is a risk to the life of the woman. A provision exists in the Irish constitution to allow Dáil Éireann to legislate on this, however no political party has risked it, and in the meantime, while it is legal in theory, the body that holds medical licences in Ireland considers it malpractice for any doctor to perform an abortion.