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If There Was A Referendum on Abortion Tomorrow, How Would You Vote?

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    #32
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    I am prolife but would vote pro choice quite simply because abortion is a sensitive matter and not something the state should interfere in. It is a womans body and something that she would have to think long and hard about.

    I don't think anyone takes abortion lightly and it is something the state should not interfere in what happens in the bedroom or the consequences thus of. Our ruling on abortion is not so much a government issue also as it is a hangover from days of our Catholic dictatorship oppression which saw even contraception and homosexuality banned.

    I beleive firmly in the rights of the mother but think that abortion after 10 or 12 weeks should not be allowed. There should be proper councilling available to the misfortunate women in this sitatuion and aftercare facilities available.


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    #33
    Nevyn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 43,045 ✭✭✭✭Nevyn


    snyper wrote: »
    Epic fail.

    Why?


    Culchies drink well water.. you cant really tamper with that.

    You'd be over run with much savages taking over dublin..

    eh, oh wait....

    Pff just put it in the beer and the TK lemonade


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    #34
    McChubbin
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,080 ✭✭✭McChubbin


    Relevent


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    #35
    Hank_Jones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Hank_Jones


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Well, if you are to presume that anyone who is pro-choice on abortion, then the logical opposite is anti-choice, otherwise anybody who is not pro-life, is pro-death, which is just a daft concept.

    I can see your logic.

    I was just saying that the proper term is Pro-Life.

    Which it is.


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    #36
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    Hank_Jones wrote: »
    I can see your logic.

    I was just saying that the proper term is Pro-Life.

    Which it is.

    Depends what you mean by proper. If you mean that they hijacked a phrase to gain a moral high ground which gained popularity & is commonly used by most people, then maybe, yes.

    By my definition of proper, then no.


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    #37
    celtic Liger
    Closed Accounts Posts: 103 ✭✭celtic Liger


    even though the poll is overwhelmingly pro choice, i can only imagine anti abortion groups would have all the mini buses outside the old folks homes, more the willing to take them to their voting stations, on the day.


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    #38
    papajimsmooth
    Registered Users Posts: 779 ✭✭✭papajimsmooth


    The same way i did for Lisbon, until i got it right.


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    #39
    Hank_Jones
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,783 ✭✭✭Hank_Jones


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Depends what you mean by proper. If you mean that they hijacked a phrase to gain a moral high ground which gained popularity & is commonly used by most people, then maybe, yes.

    By my definition of proper, then no.

    Agree to disagree by the looks of things. :p


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    #40
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Depends what you mean by proper. If you mean that they hijacked a phrase to gain a moral high ground which gained popularity & is commonly used by most people, then maybe, yes.

    By my definition of proper, then no.

    If you mean the hijacked phrase that is "Pro-choice" as meaning supporting legalisation of abortion (that procedure where the foetus of an unborn child is terminated) that is used to make allowing abortion sound more acceptable, then maybe yes.

    I don't want to give my opinion on this matter because this thread is soooo flawed. No offence Stabelgrade you seem like a great guy/poster but come off it, if you want an unbiased poll result you gotta stop using this propaganda terminology used by groups that support legalisation.
    celtic Liger wrote: »
    even though the poll is overwhelmingly pro choice, i can only imagine anti abortion groups would have all the mini buses outside the old folks homes, more the willing to take them to their voting stations, on the day.

    boards.ie, and particularly AH, represents a small sunsection of the population. Post this same thread in the Politics forum and see what the answers would be like. You cannot make assumptions based on answers here alone.


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    #41
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    I'll be honest, I've always gone back and forth (I can't spell vacillated :p) on the question of abortion.

    On the one hand, I believe in free choice, and it is wrong to force a woman to go through with a pregnancy, not on economic grounds (there was a US study recently that showed that outcomes for single mothers were not significantly lower than those who weren't, accounting for economic status), but rather on her right to bodily integrity (I am aware of the cheekiness of justifying abortion on the grounds of a right which originated in a Catholic Encyclical:p).

    On the other hand, abortion makes me queasy in a way which drug-taking, prostitution, sado-masochism or any other liberal-conservative issue do not. The feeling is strongest when I think of late term abortions (I cannot accept that a nine-month old isn't a baby just because it is separated from the world by a thin layer of blood and flesh), but even on early term abortions, I get the creeps.
    I am an athiest, but something in me says that something gains value just from being human, without any need for thought or consciousness to back it up - otherwise there can be no real objection to killing the severely mentally disabled, if they are so mentally damaged as to be practically insentient.

    It's one of those things where, if the vote came up, I'd probably vote for it, but would detest the practice of it, and support any measures to reduce its incidence.

    Postscript: Isn't it funny how writing down your thoughts can help solidify them, and bring you to realisations that you would otherwise never have reached?
    I don't think I would date a girl who had had an abortion, and I don't think I could forgive a girl who aborted my child without telling me.
    I never realised how much I dislike abortion until wrote this post.


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    #42
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    segaBOY wrote: »
    If you mean the hijacked phrase that is "Pro-choice" as meaning supporting legalisation of abortion (that procedure where the foetus of an unborn child is terminated) that is used to make allowing abortion sound more acceptable, then maybe yes.

    I don't want to give my opinion on this matter because this thread is soooo flawed. No offence Stabelgrade you seem like a great guy/poster but come off it, if you want an unbiased poll result you gotta stop using this propaganda terminology used by groups that support legalisation.

    Point well made & accepted. If I were to re-do the thread, I would take this on board & rephrase the terminology used. As it stands, I don't think I can edit it, unfortunately.


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    #43
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    The_Minister wrote: »

    Postscript: Isn't it funny how writing down your thoughts can help solidify them, and bring you to realisations that you would otherwise never have reached?
    I don't think I would date a girl who had had an abortion, and I don't think I could forgive a girl who aborted my child without telling me.
    I never realised how much I dislike abortion until wrote this post.

    A very honest post indeed. To be honest, I'm not a big fan of abortion myself - I don't think anyone is really, but I do believe that in some circumstances, it can be a last resort that should be made available to those who feel it is necessary.

    Can I ask you though - how do you feel about the morning after pill? If human life begins at conception, surely that's pretty much the same deal? And would you date a girl who took it or support a girlfriend who decided to take it after unprotected sex (or say, with a broken condom) with you?


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    #44
    Kasabian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,689 ✭✭✭Kasabian


    I haven't read the whole thread , cos I am tired.

    I would always have concidered myself to be pro choice but lately I have been reveiwing my stance on this .

    The thought that comes to mind is that abortion is becoming in my mind another form of contraception. Its another get out route for those too dumb to protect themselves against STD's in the first place let alone thinking about protecting against unwanted pregnancy.

    The more I think about Abortion the less I think I am Pro-Choice.


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    #45
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Point well made & accepted. If I were to re-do the thread, I would take this on board & rephrase the terminology used. As it stands, I don't think I can edit it, unfortunately.

    Ah I'm being a bit harsh (and anal) tbh. I know what you mean and accept you're trying your best to facilitate everyone (and create what is an interesting thread btw) so sorry for being an ass.

    It's just a thorn I've had in my side about other issues, how people are manipulated by how the facts are presented (by both sides in many cases) when asked to vote.


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    #46
    CorsetIsTight
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭CorsetIsTight


    Thaedydal wrote: »
    You poll is seriously flawed, even I don't believe in free for all at any stage abortion.

    Why not...? If it is genuinely a woman's right to choose, then why should there be a time limit on that choice...?


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    #47
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    Can I ask you though - how do you feel about the morning after pill? If human life begins at conception, surely that's pretty much the same deal? And would you date a girl who took it or support a girlfriend who decided to take it after unprotected sex (or say, with a broken condom) with you?

    As I said, I ain't really religious, so the whole life begins at conception thing isn't a big deal for me.
    The Catholic Church used to draw the line for when you allowed an abortion until the Quickening (capital in honour of Highlander), and I would broadly agree with that.
    I wouldn't be that comfortable with even early abortions, but the pill normally kills before or just after implantation, and I can live with that.


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    #48
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    starbelgrade wrote: »

    Can I ask you though - how do you feel about the morning after pill? If human life begins at conception, surely that's pretty much the same deal? And would you date a girl who took it or support a girlfriend who decided to take it after unprotected sex (or say, with a broken condom) with you?

    There is a bit of debate over this. It is generally accepted that the morning after pill prevents implatation of the embryo in the uterus.

    Others think the high level of progesterone may prevent ovulation in the first place.

    Either way a foetus has not been able to grow at that stage so it is a bit of a different ball game.


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    #49
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    segaBOY wrote: »
    Ah I'm being a bit harsh (and anal) tbh. I know what you mean and accept you're trying your best to facilitate everyone (and create what is an interesting thread btw) so sorry for being an ass.

    It's just a thorn I've had in my side about other issues, how people are manipulated by how the facts are presented (by both sides in many cases) when asked to vote.

    If the vote doesn't go the way I want, I'm gonna ask people to vote again. I will call it Abortion Referendum Poll 2. :D


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    #50
    CorsetIsTight
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭CorsetIsTight


    Stinicker wrote: »
    I beleive firmly in the rights of the mother but think that abortion after 10 or 12 weeks should not be allowed. There should be proper councilling available to the misfortunate women in this sitatuion and aftercare facilities available.

    Why do my rights as a woman end at 12 weeks gestation...?


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    #51
    The_Minister
    Registered Users Posts: 10,255 ✭✭✭✭The_Minister


    starbelgrade wrote: »
    If the vote doesn't go the way I want, I'm gonna ask people to vote again. I will call it Abortion Referendum Poll 2. :D

    First you have to commission a poll on why people voted no, and act shocked when you discover that Shinners told them you wanted to gas 12 year-olds. as well as conscript foetuses into a European army.


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    #52
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    The_Minister wrote: »
    First you have to commission a poll on why people voted no, and act shocked when you discover that Shinners told them you wanted to gas 12 year-olds. as well as conscript foetuses into a European army.

    I'm already taking stock of the situation.


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    #53
    starbelgrade
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,739 ✭✭✭✭starbelgrade


    The_Minister wrote: »
    First you have to commission a poll on why people voted no, and act shocked when you discover that Shinners told them you wanted to gas 12 year-olds. as well as conscript foetuses into a European army.

    I just typed "fetus army" into Google & found a Facebook page called "College Students for the Creation of a Fetus Army".

    Feckin students. If they spent as much time on studying as they did on... etc.


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    #54
    Stinicker
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,102 ✭✭✭Stinicker


    CorsetIsTight wrote: »
    Why do my rights as a woman end at 12 weeks gestation...?

    Because at 12 weeks the woman should have made up her mind and by then the cells have developed into a baby and unless you are okay with having a baby essentially liquidised within your womb then that is why. Do you think that abortion at 9 months should be ok? Or that you should abort the kid when it becomes a rebellious teenager?


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    #55
    KonFusion
    Registered Users Posts: 2,588 ✭✭✭KonFusion


    Pro choice ftw!


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    #56
    segaBOY
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,563 ✭✭✭segaBOY


    CorsetIsTight wrote: »
    Why do my rights as a woman end at 12 weeks gestation...?

    Because the foetus has developed enough that the foetus has all organs, is attached to the placenta and can move around and kick etc., fingers, toes and external sex organs have formed.

    It will look something like this

    One could argue you are essentially killing a child if you are allowing late term abortions-where are you going to draw the line?

    Tbh I can't agree with abortions which are above 6 weeks. I think you have left too much development to occur if you leave it any longer.


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    #57
    goat2
    Registered Users Posts: 4,939 ✭✭✭goat2


    CorsetIsTight wrote: »
    Why do my rights as a woman end at 12 weeks gestation...?
    there also is another human being
    the growing baby
    they have no voice
    i dont know
    but if it had happened to me, i would rather put the child forward for adoption, and give others who cannot have their own, but would love to have a child, i do think i would be making 3 people very happy


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    #58
    up for anything
    Registered Users Posts: 5,778 ✭✭✭up for anything


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Or that you should abort the kid when it becomes a rebellious teenager?

    Most sensible thing you've ever posted. I give this idea the thumbs up. :D


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    #59
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,857 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    I'm pro-Abortion


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    #60
    jimmycrackcorm
    Registered Users Posts: 14,339 ✭✭✭✭jimmycrackcorm


    I'm confused. Is pro-choice for the foetus to have the choice to get to be born?


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    #61
    CorsetIsTight
    Registered Users Posts: 320 ✭✭CorsetIsTight


    Stinicker wrote: »
    Because at 12 weeks the woman should have made up her mind and by then the cells have developed into a baby and unless you are okay with having a baby essentially liquidised within your womb then that is why. Do you think that abortion at 9 months should be ok? Or that you should abort the kid when it becomes a rebellious teenager?

    I think that if the argument for abortion is being made on the basis of a woman's right to choose, then there seems no logical reason to limit her choice. If it's her choice because it's her body, then it's her choice up to and including 9 months.


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