Sexual Discrimination (Theortical Question)

Berty

Dear Feebackers,

If, theoretically, I had a hosted forum and I didn't want women in it could I openly say "Women are not allowed".

Does this come under the

"Its a hosted forum and the person in charge of it can do what they like"?

Or does the Host (boards.ie) have a responsibility that the users cannot be openly discriminatory on the basis of sex?


Or is it similar to a womens gym refusing memberships from men because there is simply no suitable law regarding it.

Nevyn

If you get a hosted private forum it's a private members only club and you give access to whom you want under any criteria you wish. I know of forums which are one gender only as part of the criteria set and even one which is cluchies only as part of the criteria set. I think if you make a big fuss over "NO Women Allowed" then there will be a big fuss.
If it's select members only then it's select members only as laid out by the membership criteria which would be trashed out with the admins before the forum is granted.

Berty

How does this fit in?

The Ladies Lounge wrote:

3) If you are a gentleman, I am afraid that we are not allowing you access at this time. Please remember that nobody likes whingers, but take it to helpdesk if you must

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=65606932&postcount=1

Nevyn

That is not a private or a hosted forum.
It is a restricted public forum like ranting and raving with it's own critea for access.
The admins would not have created the forum knowing it's remit if they tought the critea was in conflict with site policy.

Do you know the reasons the critea was set up that way?

Berty

Thaedydal wrote: »

Do you know the reasons the critea was set up that way?

The criteria for the Ladies Lounge Private Forum was surely to keep prowling men out.

However, as my questions are theoretical, then what about if I requested a similar forum with the same criteria as the Ladies Lounge Private Forum(the name says private not restricted) and substituted the words Ladies for Muslim men, gay men or just men in general and restricted women for similar reasons then would that forum be created?

Nevyn

Berty wrote: »

The criteria for the Ladies Lounge Private Forum was surely to keep prowling men out.

It was to stop the ladies lounge meet ups being swamped with men, the last 2 I was out the ladies were out numbered 3 to 1.

Berty wrote: »

However, as my questions are theoretical, then what about if I requested a similar forum with the same criteria as the Ladies Lounge Private Forum(the name says private not restricted) and substituted the words Ladies for Muslim men, gay men or just men in general and restricted women for similar reasons then would that forum be created?

Each forum is created or not on it's own merits, siting the existence of another forum is not considered an argument for creating another forum.

If a forum was requested for good reasons which happened to be a specific group of people and the person proposing it was in good stead with the site and wasn't going to abuse it I am sure the admins would look at the merits of it.

There are also the social groups which a person can set up and invite whom they wish setting up their own criteria.

If the private hosted forum is for a group of people with X in common to communicate and make arrangements I can't see it being a problem, if it's being set up to exclude people from a topic on purely a sexist bases, ie a no females allowed soccer private forum cos women don't know anything about soccer, then it could run into issues.

5starpool

I love this bit from that private wimmins thread:

the thinking behind this being that details of where a group of ladies will be at a given time and place should not be public for all to see

Men shouldn't be allowed in pub then in case there is a group of women in there if you extrapolate a bit from that. IMO, for that forum idea not to just be 'wrong' in the context of normal boards operations, it should be a hosted forum totally seperate from TLL, and people could have sigs or whatever to create awareness like lots of others have for their own pet private hosted forums.

Just in case, I think I should state I have no interest in TLL in general or going to one of their meet ups, but it just looks 'wrong'.

Berty

LOL, Let them open their own Portmarnock Golf Club and see how far they get.

Eliot Rosewater

To be honest I don't see the issue with the Ladies Lounge having a womens only meet up ... it is the ladies lounge after all.

What Thaedydal said ("the ladies were out numbered 3 to 1") does sound a little off putting. If I was a women I probably wouldn't go to a TLL beers out of a fear that many of those men were only going so as to pick up a lady. I could be completely wrong on that btw; I don't frequent TLL; but it doesn't sound relaxed on the face of it.

Berty

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

To be honest I don't see the issue with the Ladies Lounge having a womens only meet up ... it is the ladies lounge after all.

Bear in mind my question was a theoretical question and I simply used TLL as an example because of its sexual discrimination in the "Private" forum.

stovelid

Does anybody know what the ratio of male/female attendees are at BGRH meets?

Eliot Rosewater

Berty wrote: »

Bear in mind my question was a theoretical question and I simply used TLL as an example because of its sexual discrimination in the "Private" forum.

Yes! I suppose you could port the logic over to other forums though. If someone wants a private forum for Polish people in Ireland then I think it's okay to discriminate. Should the Republican and Nationalists forum be obliged to accept non-Nationalists for example? I don't think so.

As someone else said here, advertising the fact that you discriminate is looking for trouble, but I can't see the problem with discriminating against people who don't fit the target audience of the forum.

Zaph

stovelid wrote: »

Does anybody know what the ratio of male/female attendees are at BGRH meets?

Mainly male, but always with a significant female representation. The Brotherettes are important to the BGRH ethos and it wouldn't be the same without them.

5starpool

Eliot Rosewater wrote: »

To be honest I don't see the issue with the Ladies Lounge having a womens only meet up ... it is the ladies lounge after all.

What Thaedydal said ("the ladies were out numbered 3 to 1") does sound a little off putting. If I was a women I probably wouldn't go to a TLL beers out of a fear that many of those men were only going so as to pick up a lady. I could be completely wrong on that btw; I don't frequent TLL; but it doesn't sound relaxed on the face of it.

I don't see anything wrong with the idea in theory at all, but I think it should be done in a different fashion is all. On the other hand, I don't really know why I am even getting involved in this thread, so I'll stop now.

johnnyskeleton

stovelid wrote: »

Does anybody know what the ratio of male/female attendees are at BGRH meets?

Isn't the more pertinent question the ratio of BGs/RHs? Then there are those with the whole package.

watty

Um.. how do you know what sex (if any) or Sexual Orientation (if any) a Internet Poster really is?

There is no browser exposure of that (though stupidly nearly everything else).

Berty

watty wrote: »

Um.. how do you know what sex (if any) or Sexual Orientation (if any) a Internet Poster really is?

There is no browser exposure of that (though stupidly nearly everything else).

Im talking about creating a thread in theory where I could be allowed sexual discriminate against the other sex.

It may only have one member which is me but still in theory my question is "Does Boards allow this discrimination?"

Case in point: TLL

watty

I know you are.

I'm wondering how you *enforce* your alleged discrimination.

There are things that are Men Only. Not many Women want to use Urinals. Probably more Men using lipstick.

Berty

watty wrote: »

I know you are.

I'm wondering how you *enforce* your alleged discrimination.

There are things that are Men Only. Not many Women want to use Urinals. Probably more Men using lipstick.

We all know people discriminate.

Employers discriminate by hiring people they know or what school they went to and they don't hire people who have certain accents or are disabled. They don't tell people they are doing this because they can make up any number of reasons as to why they are not hiring that person.

Example of TLL who have been that they can discriminate against a persons sex all they like but not tell anybody but they should not be allowed put this information in their charter and tell people who complain to take their complaint to the Helpdesk.

Consequently then boards.ie does not discourage this kind of behaviour so therefore I should be able to create my super forum whereby only men can enter and tell women to go cry their eyes out to the Helpdesk.

Whether or not that be a forum where men wear lipstick or lederhosen who knows, but it will openly and publically exclude women.

Ok Snickers bars say "Not for Girls" but they do not say "Not for girls but if you don't like it you can go to the NCA and complain to them" because they wont be brought in front of a court.

So in theory I could argue that I should be able to have a forum whereby just men come to meet and talk in public outside of boards.ie

There is a "Motors Offline" which is where members of boards can meet and discuss ANYTHING and it has women. Should our charter be allowed to say "No women and take your tears about not being allowed in to the helpdesk".

We can change it right now but does that mean boards.ie will closed the forum saying we changed the rules.

If so then TLL Private forum should also go but in reality it should go right now.

Insect Overlord

Why are you getting so worked up about being excluded from a forum that you wouldn't even use?

Berty

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Why are you getting so worked up about being excluded from a forum that you wouldn't even use?

Im using that as an example only because their entry criteria states you cannot be a male.

It's an example only. I don't want to be a member of that private forum as I have nothing to contribute but the example still remains valid.

Should there be criteria set down by boards.ie to state forums members, hosted moderators cannot set criteria to exclude somebody on the basis of their gender?

Insect Overlord

Berty wrote: »

Im using that as an example only because their entry criteria states you cannot be a male.

It's an example only. I don't want to be a member of that private forum as I have nothing to contribute but the example still remains valid.

Should there be criteria set down by boards.ie to state forums members, hosted moderators cannot set criteria to exclude somebody on the basis of their gender?

Out of interest, have you found any other examples?

[my opinion] If private forums are set up specifically for a certain community, and someone who is excluded by the criteria feels that they wouldn't contribute to that forum anyway, then it's not really a problem at all.

As for your theoretical model, any forum with a purely discriminatory exclusion mandate would probably be vetoed under the general "no being a dick" rule. [/my opinion]

Berty

Insect Overlord wrote: »

Out of interest, have you found any other examples?

No I have not but I was looking to a certain extent to find another example to avoid my constant references to TLL. Other forums do not appear to have an exclusive/majority of sexual gender which is obvious from the outset.

Soccer could be argued as being a male dominated forum but it is not a male orientated forum. I don't frequent this myself because I have little interest in the sport. However, they also have a privacy lock on this forum which forces people to read the charter. Again it does not suggest women cannot be members because its not orientated that way.

In the EDU forum each college has its own area so each forum within the group forum is orientated that way but does not exclude members from boards.ie frequenting their forums.

Also the non drinkers forum does not exclude alcoholics from this forum because of their name.

The Ladies Lounge has threads on womens issues which is all good and well and there are men in the ladies lounge and I believe with some digging I could find the thread specifically for Men of the Ladies Lounge.

Insect Overlord wrote: »

[my opinion] If private forums are set up specifically for a certain community, and someone who is excluded by the criteria feels that they wouldn't contribute to that forum anyway, then it's not really a problem at all.

Im not specifically speaking for my own agenda. The reason I use the word "theory" is that it can be applied as a general rule across the decision making of thread construction. I "may" not have anything to contribute but other men may feel they do. Some men may prefer the company of women and not exclusively in a sexual way. That's another argument completely.

Insect Overlord wrote: »

As for your theoretical model, any forum with a purely discriminatory exclusion mandate would probably be vetoed under the general "no being a dick" rule. [/my opinion]

It should say "not being a dick rule" in that case rather than:

3) If you are a gentleman, I am afraid that we are not allowing you access at this time. Please remember that nobody likes whingers, but take it to helpdesk if you must

If somebody created a private forum for people with disabilities and said

"If you are able bodied, I am afraid that we are not allowing you access at this time. Please remember that nobody likes whingers, but take it to helpdesk if you must"

Acceptable?

Silverfish

It's kinda this simple. If the ladies want a girls night out, it's arranged in that forum.

If lads want a lads night out, I'm pretty sure they'd get annoyed if their girlfriend insisted on going on the basis of sexism, so it's sortof the same thing.

Yes the ladies had some problems with some people who had a) never posted on the forum and b) didn't even have an account on boards showing up because they saw a thread detailing there'd be these women there on that date, with usernames etc.

We are well aware that there will be men in the pub, but we would hope not men that would walk right up going 'Oh hello, I saw your pic in KYL and I saw you'd be here tonight so we thought we'd come along'.

I'm sorry that you may not believe that this happens, because we do try delete all the sleazy comments and suggestions posted, and there are still public tLL meetups, but sometimes the girls just want to meet up themselves without all of boards being aware.

Have you tried asking for a similar forum based for TGC or wherever?

Xiney

+1 to Silverfish

The private forum is more for smaller, impromptu get togethers.

When the ladies started to organize smaller events, less than half a dozen women that sort of thing... we saw the potential for danger if details of these smaller meetups were public.

The private forum has also spun off from a thread which was dedicated to helping women find other female friends to do girly things with. Men are therefore excluded by definition.

Nevyn

Berty wrote: »

No I have not but I was looking to a certain extent to find another example to avoid my constant references to TLL. Other forums do not appear to have an exclusive/majority of sexual gender which is obvious from the outset.

I know of two private hosted forums which are women only and 1 socail group.

There are also forums for Clans which is members only and they don't have female members /shrug.

Berty wrote: »

Im not specifically speaking for my own agenda. The reason I use the word "theory" is that it can be applied as a general rule across the decision making of thread construction. I "may" not have anything to contribute but other men may feel they do. Some men may prefer the company of women and not exclusively in a sexual way. That's another argument completely.

Yes they do and when a bigger forum beers are organised I am sure it will be for all that post in the forum but the smaller private forum are for informal unofficial meet up of the female posters. Dude being a out and acknowledged female on the internet can be hard and frankly a pain as you do get weridos and stalkers. To protect those who want to meet up privately there is a private forum where no one will stalk them or turn up unwanted.

It's to keep people safe, if the tables were turned and there too many husband hunting or bunny boilers turning up at TGC beers then I'd be all for them having a private meet up for as well.

Berty wrote: »

It should say "not being a dick rule" in that case rather than:

If somebody created a private forum for people with disabilities and said

"If you are able bodied, I am afraid that we are not allowing you access at this time. Please remember that nobody likes whingers, but take it to helpdesk if you must"

Acceptable?

So you have a problem with the language used, why didn't you just say so?
I don't think it's strong language and given the history of males attacking the forum and it's moderation in the forum consistantly they right to say take you issues and complaints to help desk, so fair enough the word whingers could be expressed a tad more diplomatically, but honestly I can understand the mods get fed up with the male posters who frankly cruise the forum and the issues with sleazy comments in the past and when they are called on they do actually whinge about it.

Faith

If the admins grant you a private forum, you can have whatever admissions criteria you like. You could only allow people with pink hair, or those with 11 toes, or exclusively people of one gender. The key is the term "private". Private forums are subject to slightly different rules then public forums, in that the moderators are free to discriminate on access for whatever reason they like. If everyone was invited, then it would just be a public forum.

Silverfish has pretty clearly outlined the reasons for that specific private tLL subforum.

Bonito

I know you've used TLL as an example but, the title is Sexual discrimination so, is there a 2nd example of where there's sexual discrimination on boards?

To be completely fair, the ladies did need that forum. I know of one of the posters who were at a beers and was approached by a man who wasn't a boards.ie user. The man had been stalking her posts/pics/profile as a guest and because TLL is visible to all, he was able to see where they'd all be on a particular night.

I get the whole double standards thing but, honestly, that sort of stuff would freak me out. If a girl were to come up to me at a beers and tell me she's not a user but she knows me from stalking my pics/profile/posts I'd be a bit weirded out!

If you can't give another example then just leave the girls alone to have their fun nights out.

Handsome Bob

Thaedydal wrote: »

It was to stop the ladies lounge meet ups being swamped with men, the last 2 I was out the ladies were out numbered 3 to 1.

The scary thing is that it doesn't surprise me one little bit.

Otis Driftwood

Xiney wrote: »

+1 to Silverfish

The private forum is more for smaller, impromptu get togethers.

When the ladies started to organize smaller events, less than half a dozen women that sort of thing... we saw the potential for danger if details of these smaller meetups were public.

The private forum has also spun off from a thread which was dedicated to helping women find other female friends to do girly things with. Men are therefore excluded by definition.

Jeez no need for the sensationilism.

Pray tell,how would they be any more dangerous than going out on a regular night with their own circle of friends?


And for the record I never have nor will I ever attend a LL beers nor do I give a fig whether there is a private forum or not.

Bonito

nedtheshed wrote: »

Jeez no need for the sensationilism.

Pray tell,how would they be any more dangerous than going out on a regular night with their own circle of friends?


And for the record I never have nor will I ever attend a LL beers nor do I give a fig whether there is a private forum or not.

Sensationalism? OK. At a big beers, a female poster was approached by someone who doesn't even use the site, I've stated it above in my other post. Imagine the greater risk to the girls if they're in an even smaller, all female group? At least at the beers there's some male posters. (maybe a bit too much but still they're there to deter outside stalkers).

What is the problem with letting the ladies meet up while feeling safe? Seriously, just get over it.