Tanned people out West

pavb2

I know it's sort of common knowledge that there are a lot of tanned,dark skinned people out West. Indeed my uncles from out there(Lettermore,Carna) could easily pass as Navajoe Indians but what is the true story.

Are they descendants of survivors of the Spanish Armada? I also heard there may be a Portugese (if not the same) link.

Interesting stuff can anyone throw any light on this?

Thanks

shanew

There was an RTE TV proramme that looked into this - I think it was called the Blood of the Irish. As part of it they did DNA tests on a group people in the west and compared the results against tests for people in the Basque region of Spain. As far as I remember they did find some similar genetic markers..but further back in time that the Aramada. I guess more likely a possible connection through people that repopulated Ireland after the last Ice Age.


Shane

Balmed Out

i think its more likely theres just more people working outdoors in fishing or whatever. Never heard of a link to the spanish armada having any real truth

pablomakaveli

Doesnt Irish mythology have a story about invaders from Spain. If that stories origins is rooted in actual events it might tie in with that thoery.

walrusgumble

Balmed Out wrote: »

i think its more likely theres just more people working outdoors in fishing or whatever. Never heard of a link to the spanish armada having any real truth

or a wash - lol. Nah that's mean. My grandad is as tanned as hell, from Kiliemer & Glenamaddy, galway (north east). Definitely more to do with out doors

caseyann

pablomakaveli wrote: »

Doesnt Irish mythology have a story about invaders from Spain. If that stories origins is rooted in actual events it might tie in with that thoery.

Nah they sank off the coast and not enough Spanish to have any effect on the blood line and features of the Irish.
It goes alot deeper than that from way back and also could even be apart of the previous invasions of the Balkans we picked up the colouring and range we have.
I have done alot of reading on the back round of the Celts and the Pict's you should really should take a deeper look.Its very interesting.:)

http://books.google.ie/books?id=HKgMAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA313&lpg=PA313&dq=the+celts+and+the+picts+and+the+albanians&source=bl&ots=pcCi9UOlBA&sig=0T2hJ0c5lO_HsQYnZRMSzUYsNs0&hl=en&ei=7F_8S-TrMpLA4gbyzNWtAg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=10&ved=0CEwQ6AEwCQ#v=onepage&q&f=false

p.s i do not know how the mad face got there sorry

caseyann

pavb2 wrote: »

I know it's sort of common knowledge that there are a lot of tanned,dark skinned people out West. Indeed my uncles from out there(Lettermore,Carna) could easily pass as Navajoe Indians but what is the true story.

Are they descendants of survivors of the Spanish Armada? I also heard there may be a Portugese (if not the same) link.

Interesting stuff can anyone throw any light on this?

Thanks

I have alot more i can find for you.I will look tomorrow
Many people believe that the dark features evident in the Black Irish come from a dramatic event that occurred over 400 years ago. In 1588, over 20 ships carrying members of the Spanish Armada wrecked on the coast of Ireland. Many of the men were killed in the wrecks. The survivors, however, were of great concern to England which was then under the rule of Queen Elizabeth I. The stranded men were put to death by Irish soldiers and, save the handful of men who fled to Scotland, it is unlikely that any of them ever made it past the beaches of Ireland.
Therefore, it is unlikely that members of the Spanish Armada could have made a strong enough genetic contribution to the people of Ireland giving rise to the Black Irish. It is more likely that a group of Spanish soldiers serving under Irish chiefs around the same time stayed in the country long enough to father children. Others believe that the Black Irish are descendants of a people from the Iberian peninsula who migrated to both Ireland and Britain over 2500 years ago. Recent genetic research has supported this claim.

brianthebard

caseyann wrote: »

Nah they sank off the coast and not enough Spanish to have any effect on the blood line and features of the Irish.
It goes alot deeper than that from way back and also could even be apart of the previous invasions of the Balkans we picked up the colouring and range we have.

pablo wasn't referring to the Spanish per se but rather the milesians. Tbh in the context of the OP there just isn't a satisfactory explanation and is probably the combination of all the supposed answers rather than one specific one.

pablomakaveli

brianthebard wrote: »

pablo wasn't referring to the Spanish per se but rather the milesians. Tbh in the context of the OP there just isn't a satisfactory explanation and is probably the combination of all the supposed answers rather than one specific one.

Yes thats what i was thinking of. Could'nt remember the name though. Given that mythology is sometimes rooted in fact, that legend may be related to the Irish and Basque sharing genetic markers. But there are probably other factors involved.

pavb2

Thanks for all replies fascinating subject, to think of surviving the armada shipwreck only to be killed on the beach, spanish soldiers retained by Irish chiefs, fighting through to Scotland, must be many stories there.

Links with the Balkans,Milesians? etc will look more into Celtic mythology listened to a podcast the other day which said much of what we know about the Celts such as the mystical elements was largely untrue??

Any other recommendations for books etc for Celts/Picts/Basques etc

InTheTrees

walrusgumble wrote: »

or a wash - lol. Nah that's mean. My grandad is as tanned as hell, from Kiliemer & Glenamaddy, galway (north east). Definitely more to do with out doors

I agree. Its the wind off the atlantic. I mean most of these tanned people are either old or outdoor types right?

paddypowder

must have something to do with the wind

im fairly pale but my brother works outdoors and is very dark
alot of people say things to him thinking he is a foreigner haha

i'll be brown after 2 weeks of summer and white again come jan

keryl

The Spanish Armada theory is a myth, most were dead when they washed up or were killed by the English or locals. Galway had a large amount of trade before and after the Normans arrived so trading with Chester and Bristol was common, these ships also went to Spain and Portugal trading wine. There would not be enough of a gene pool from these people to cause a darker complexion in the population. Also, the Black Irish is an American term for those with very dark eyes and black hair and pale skin. (Generally Irish are classed as having black hair and blue eyes=gabriel byne)

Ireland prior to the Celt invasion was inhabited by peoples from the now Turkey area so possibly the ability to tan comes from the distant ancestry of these people. Most people I know including myself tan when the summer comes although there isn't much sun in Ireland. If your outdoors quite a bit you will be pretty brown. All this goes for most Northern European countries...

caseyann

keryl wrote: »

The Spanish Armada theory is a myth, most were dead when they washed up or were killed by the English or locals. Galway had a large amount of trade before and after the Normans arrived so trading with Chester and Bristol was common, these ships also went to Spain and Portugal trading wine. There would not be enough of a gene pool from these people to cause a darker complexion in the population. Also, the Black Irish is an American term for those with very dark eyes and black hair and pale skin. (Generally Irish are classed as having black hair and blue eyes=gabriel byne)

Ireland prior to the Celt invasion was inhabited by peoples from the now Turkey area so possibly the ability to tan comes from the distant ancestry of these people. Most people I know including myself tan when the summer comes although there isn't much sun in Ireland. If your outdoors quite a bit you will be pretty brown. All this goes for most Northern European countries...

If you read into it the Celts actually lived in the Balkan regions and who's to say that the blood line didn't come from the mix with the Balkan natives.
I don't know where you are getting the Turkish link

pavb2

Thanks, strange that locals would also kill Spanish both having common religion or was it that even then there was a strong English influence.

What time/century are we talking about for the Turkish or Balkan??? pre Celt settlers?

Have to do a bit of reading up.

bigeasyeah

A lot of Spanish ships used to stop over and trade in Galway.The Spanish Arch is so named because of this.

keryl

The Anatolians, yes the Celts would bring it too, though I'm not actually sure what they brought???? I have to scrap what I said about bringing tanning ability most Europeans can tan, fewer can't.

Just to get into the DNA of it, most of Ireland is R1B, this is found in most of Western Europe (also majority of Spain has it). The Blood of the Irish Documentary was a bit of nonsense, Irish R1B has L21+ (derived through further testing), there is very very few L21+ in Spain so through that they can say they didn't originate there but probably via France.

Ireland is a mix of origins though it's drummed into us that we're Celtic.

caseyann

pavb2 wrote: »

Thanks, strange that locals would also kill Spanish both having common religion or was it that even then there was a strong English influence.

What time/century are we talking about for the Turkish or Balkan??? pre Celt settlers?

Have to do a bit of reading up.

Ireland's indigenous culture is Celtic - the language, folklore and customs have been handed down since time immemorial. But in fact the Celts only arrived in Ireland in about 500 BC. There were people living in Ireland for more than 7,000 years before that. They left a lasting impression on the countryside in the form of tombs, cairns and standing stones. This is their story.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/h2g2/A855335

paddypowder

People really need to educate themselves more thoroughly on irish genealogy
historians are lazy when it comes to ireland
irish people are actually the least "celtic" country when compared to our neighbours in terms of bloodlines

the celts had a major influence over our culture and social structures but we are not celtic people.

AlmostFamous

Gort in Galway is home to a lot of Brazilians (in the last 100 years or so) and some French Huguenots moved to Ireland (approx 10,000) and settled in Dublin, Clonmel, Cork and Carrick-on-Suir around the 1600s

owenc

AlmostFamous wrote: »

Gort in Galway is home to a lot of Brazilians (in the last 100 years or so) and some French Huguenots moved to Ireland (approx 10,000) and settled in Dublin, Clonmel, Cork and Carrick-on-Suir around the 1600s

Yeah i could sware its probably french huguenots, as there is this boy in my class with pitch black hair, a really dark face (his parents a pitch white!), brown eyes and everything that makes him look like foreign even a wee small nose! He must have huguenot blood!

keryl

The Hugenouts and Palatines came from France and Germany as Protestant refugees. The Germans integrated more as far as I know and brought very advanced methods of farming, County Clare has Palantine people there to this day as has other Munster counties.

There are people of viking descent in Ireland and people of Norse Gael descent, names like MacAuliffe, MacWalter, MacManus are Norse-Gael and Doyle, Wogan, Higgins are from the Vikings (I think more likely Dane but can't be sure)

I'm trying to research my family name and found it to be from abroad, from DNA testing I found that it's not a very common DNA Haplogroup so it's very surprising to see the variety in the Irish gene pool...

Glenshane Pass

Galicia no?

pavb2

So what it highlights is that the answer to our make up depends on the time in history you choose and the influence of other groups that came to Ireland.

Most people when asked would say we are descended from the Celts but from the posts it's not as simplistic as this, very interesting comments though.

brianthebard

The Celtic thing is as much a creation of Matthew Arnold and British Romanticism as it is actual historical reality. Its an interesting topic though.

MarchDub

The term "Celtic" was first used in the English language as a linguistic classification in the eighteenth century to describe the languages of Ireland, Scotland and Wales and other "Celtic" language regions.

The word was originally used by the Greeks in about 600BC to describe the "Keltoi" peoples who lived north of Greece and was later used also by Julius Caesar as "Celtae". It is no longer believed among scholars that this was a homogeneous group but many different groups speaking a similar language and practicing similar customs.

There is no evidence for a Celtic - in terms of people - invasion of Ireland. This myth was based on writings that are classified as mythology and not historic. There is however evidence that the language and most of the Celtic customs, like law and religion, did became part of Irish life around 300 BC. How the language and the Celtic culture came is open to debate among scholars.

keryl

Celtic is a language, culture, way of life (if your into it) it's not a people.

Ireland is Celtic in terms of the culture we have partly due to the political pressure by Irish nationalists during British rule which is understandable.

Not to get off the wrong path but take a very Irish surname, it doesn't necessarily mean it's Celtic but it's name given by a Celtic culture, the holder of that name may be from the original inhabitants from 7500 years ago if that makes sense.

Also the same for England, England isn't Anglo-Saxon, a lot of it's culture/language is. That said a large portion of the population is Anglo/Saxon/Jute but also Celtic-Britons. They weren't wiped out or completely pushed to France/Wales or Scotland... England tried to erase Celtic origins as barbaric and instead opt for having Roman ancestry to a degree also when the Normans invaded in 1066 the attention was on the 'English' that were attacked although forgetting the 'Britons' that were pushed out 600 years before...

Regarding Irish people's origin I do have a problem when everyone is considered Celtic, I think it would be best to show all out mixtures and teach a little more of the varieties we have... then again look at the History curriculum in our schools and how a lot are taught...

owenc

keryl wrote: »

Celtic is a language, culture, way of life (if your into it) it's not a people.

Ireland is Celtic in terms of the culture we have partly due to the political pressure by Irish nationalists during British rule which is understandable.

Not to get off the wrong path but take a very Irish surname, it doesn't necessarily mean it's Celtic but it's name given by a Celtic culture, the holder of that name may be from the original inhabitants from 7500 years ago if that makes sense.

Also the same for England, England isn't Anglo-Saxon, a lot of it's culture/language is. That said a large portion of the population is Anglo/Saxon/Jute but also Celtic-Britons. They weren't wiped out or completely pushed to France/Wales or Scotland... England tried to erase Celtic origins as barbaric and instead opt for having Roman ancestry to a degree also when the Normans invaded in 1066 the attention was on the 'English' that were attacked although forgetting the 'Britons' that were pushed out 600 years before...

Regarding Irish people's origin I do have a problem when everyone is considered Celtic, I think it would be best to show all out mixtures and teach a little more of the varieties we have... then again look at the History curriculum in our schools and how a lot are taught...

englands a whole mix the only way of finding out is by doing your family tree.

fontanalis

First off, someone mentioned Black Irish ealier, please never again.
As already said the Spanish Aramda surviviors idea is over romaticised, there may have been some survivors who hung around but not enough to alter the genetic make up Western Seaboard.
The term Celt is meaningless outside of language and a vague culture description and there wasn't any large scale invasion that all of a sudden replaced the original inhabitants.
The links below give an idea of who the original settlers (from post ice age onwards) were and as mentioned earlier they came from what is now the Basque region, further migrations probably happened from around the same region and I'd say some remannts of these stories might explain the Milesians (alot of these stories also seem to be a way of linking existing rulers at the time to the old testament to give them more credibility) who could be the "celts" referred to in stories, they could have been the people who brought the ancestor to what is now the gaelic language (Irish settlers ended up replacing Pictish in Scotland with gaelic so the idea of a small group of people having a big influence isn't crazy).
Ad so what if some people are tanned, what do we expect red hair and freckles?

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/20...itishancestry/

http://www.prospectmagazine.co.uk/20...stryrevisited/

fontanalis

pavb2 wrote: »

Thanks for all replies fascinating subject, to think of surviving the armada shipwreck only to be killed on the beach, spanish soldiers retained by Irish chiefs, fighting through to Scotland, must be many stories there.

Links with the Balkans,Milesians? etc will look more into Celtic mythology listened to a podcast the other day which said much of what we know about the Celts such as the mystical elements was largely untrue??

Any other recommendations for books etc for Celts/Picts/Basques etc

I'd recommend Stephen Oppenheimers Origins of the British (Ireland gets lumped in), Bryan Sykes Blood of the Isles is supposded to be good also. I think they both offer the same explanation.
After the ice age 15,000 years ago or so (remember the whole coast from the Bay of Biscay through Cornwall through Cork was dry land at this stage) people from mainly three ice age refuges (Basque region, Ukraine region, Balkans region) started moving North and West.
People from the Basque region populated the British Isles although Eastern England got more influence from ancestors of the Balkans are (look up Doggerland on wikipedia to also give you an idea of the landscape at the time). Wales for some reason got more influence from the meditteranean, probably due to rich tin mines. Of course more recently the vikings came (plundered) along, interestingly 25% of a sample of women in Iceland showed recent irish ancestry.
That is just a rough general overview but with the advent of farming and iron age technology there would also be small movements of people. Also populations on the atlantic seaboard may have been in contact with other people in other regions/countries on the atlantic seaboard more so than people within their own country.

MarchDub

pavb2 wrote: »

Links with the Balkans,Milesians? etc will look more into Celtic mythology listened to a podcast the other day which said much of what we know about the Celts such as the mystical elements was largely untrue??

Any other recommendations for books etc for Celts/Picts/Basques etc

I would recommend that you stick to Irish scholars on the subject - otherwise you can get into all kinds of befuddlement. John Waddell [NUI, Galway] and Barry Raftery [UCD] are both excellent in the area of Irish pre-history and what archeological results have shown. Raftery's "Pagan Celtic Ireland" is among the best overview - with his own archeological results included. I would also recommend Dáibhí Ó Cróinín's A New History of Ireland Volume I Prehistoric and Early Ireland. This gives information on pre-historic and early historic Irish settlements and early manuscripts.


RTE did a series a few years back "In Search of Ancient Ireland" which featured these and other Irish scholars discussing the origins of the Irish people from the earliest settlements in neolithic times. It was available on DVD for a while.