Lane change due to persons on the hard shoulder

John C

Hallo,

here is a question about driving etiquette.
Firstly comes the scenario and then comes the question.

Scenario:
Driver1 is doing at 100 kph on a four lane motorway.
300m ahead on the hard shoulder two persons outside of the car.
We know of the gust from a passing car.

Driver2 is 300m+ behind in the left hand lane. It is expected he will soon begin an overtaking maneouvre.

The driver1 decides to give those persons a break. He changes into the right hand lane; he indicates moving back to the left hand lane.

In this time driver2 has moved into the right hand lane and "separation" is over 100m. He "thinks" that driver1 has set out to obstruct him. Driver2 hoots at driver1.

Question
In this case was it bad manners of driver2 to hoot like that?


Regards John C

enviro

John C wrote: »

He "thinks" that driver1 has set out to obstruct him.

I would "hoot" if I was obstructed, cause it is dangerours.

Edit: @ 100m it was hardly required unless driver2 was travelling alot faster than driver1.

Esel

If the car and people were completely on the hard shoulder, you should not need to change lanes. If the motorway was busy, you couldn't, anyway.

Regarding the 'bad manners' - I wouldn't interpret a hoot as that. Now 'the finger' or equivalent - that would be just plain rude.

RATM

At 100m distance and assuming the speed limit was adhered to then Driver 1 has done nothing wrong imo. Annoying it may be for Driver 2 he still hasn't done anything wrong.

If anything this scenario shows us what a poor driver Driver 2 is. One of the main skills in driving is learning to anticipate hazards before they happen, those that can master this tend to drive their whole lives without a crash.
Driver 2, if they were observant, would've seen the car on the hard shoulder and immediately thought to themselves 'that guy 100m ahead might move into my lane' and been ready for the possibility. Instead he wasn't and took out his frustration by beeping.

I changed from a car to a motorbike about 2 years ago. I've found that I've had to at least double my concentration and anticipation of hazards on a bike than in a car. I'm constantly driving defensively in anticipation of someone pulling out on me. I'm always scanning for pedestrians when filtering city center traffic.
When I go back to driving my parents car occasionally I realise how much safer a car driver I've become because of my experience on the bike.

challengemaster

enviro wrote: »

I would "hoot" if I was obstructed, cause it is dangerours.

Edit: @ 100m it was hardly required unless driver2 was travelling alot faster than driver1.

If driver 2 was travelling at 120kmph, and driver 1 remained at 100kmph, driver 2 would cover 333m/s and driver 1, 278m/s

So, relative to driver 1, driver 2 was gaining 55m/s, and at only 100m ...in less than 2 seconds, there would have been no gap...(ie. crash)

I'm guessing by the time d2 spotted this and reacted(braked), the gap would have closed some too..

driver 1 could have caused an accident by unnecessary swerving, so I think a good beeping would be the least they deserved.

Davidth88

Driver 2 should have also seen the people on the hard shoulder therefore should not have ' beeped '.

In my opinion , if the motorway is quiet ( which it seems it was ) you should always move over if people are on the hard shoulder.

The hard shoulder is dangerous enough ( possibly one of the most dangerous places that most people are likely to end up in ), anything we can do to make it safer....

I would also move over ( on quiet motorways ) when approaching junctions , to allow ease of traffic joining .

Cookie_Monster

challengemaster wrote: »

driver 1 could have caused an accident by unnecessary swerving, so I think a good beeping would be the least they deserved.

he didn't "swerve unnecessarily", he indicated and changed lanes :rolleyes:

Driver 2 in the wrong, clearly not watching the road or know what was going on around him.

And anyway if its a four lane motorway as you said he can simply move into lane 3 to overtake :P

cormie

Well what if it was a truck you were overtaking in the left hand lane? Driver 2 probably wouldn't have beeped you. If this was a 4 lane motorway and there was nobody already in the 2nd lane, then technically the third lane should have been free too, allowing driver 2 to go into this lane and especially nobody in lane 4 (I think, I've just woken up so can't fully comprehend the situation in my noggin:D).

If I was in the hard shoulder I'd definitely appreciate the move by driver 1 and in most cases I'll also move into the next lane. Not just for the wind, but absolutely anything can happen at any time when driving, a blowout, toyotaitus, loss of control etc so to try avoid the freak occurrence of careering of into the back of them. Just incase!

So I reckon driver 2 should have anticipated the situation a bit better.

bijapos

challengemaster wrote: »

If driver 2 was travelling at 120kmph, and driver 1 remained at 100kmph, driver 2 would cover 333m/s and driver 1, 278m/s

So, relative to driver 1, driver 2 was gaining 55m/s, and at only 100m ...in less than 2 seconds, there would have been no gap...(ie. crash)

I'm guessing by the time d2 spotted this and reacted(braked), the gap would have closed some too..

driver 1 could have caused an accident by unnecessary swerving, so I think a good beeping would be the least they deserved.

Figures are a long way out 120 kph = 33 m/s, 100 kph = 28 m/s.

So its a lot more than 2 secs to make up the 300m between driver 1 and 2


To answer the question:

Driver 1 was correct to move out, its easier and safer for those on the hard shoulder. Nobody else was forced to do an emergency brake or avoidance.

Driver 2 may not have seen what happened, mistake on their part, maybe they are simply a bit embarassed over it.

BrianD3

If driver 1 wants to show "courtesy" to those in the hard shoulder he should have slowed down rather than change lanes in front of a car that has already moved into the overtaking lane. It's not clear from the post how badly driver 2 was impeded (if at all) It may be that driver 1 could have slowed down and tucked in behind driver 2.

Scenario sounds a bit like when drivers jump into the overtaking lane to facilitate drivers merging onto the M-way and end up inconveniencing those already in the overtaking lane. Misplaced courtesy.

Also, re: showing courtesy to those in the hard shoulder - a lot of the time those in the HS shouldn't be there in the first place. People seem to think it's OK to walk or cycle in the HS, stop to swop drivers, stop to answer a mobile phone etc. The there's the ones who have a valid reason for being there (eg changing a wheel) but don't have the cop on to move their car as far in off the road as possible. Recently I saw an eejit changing a wheel with his arse sticking out into the road.

bmw535d

"One of the main skills in driving is learning to anticipate hazards before they happen, those that can master this tend to drive their whole lives without a crash."

+1
very true, i amaze my son wile accompanieng him wile hes learning, id say "watch that guy up the road he's going to pull out, or open the door," nothing beats experience no matter how good of a driver you are.

bijapos

BrianD3 wrote: »

If driver 1 wants to show "courtesy" to those in the hard shoulder he should have slowed down rather than change lanes in front of a car that has already moved into the overtaking lane. It's not clear from the post how badly driver 2 was impeded (if at all) It may be that driver 1 could have slowed down and tucked in behind driver 2.

Second driver is 300m behind first, he isn't changing lanes in front of him. Driver 2 had plenty of time to slow down a bit and adjust themselves. It would be a bit different if he was 30m behind.

Also, re: showing courtesy to those in the hard shoulder - a lot of the time those in the HS shouldn't be there in the first place..

I agree that in Ireland the hard shoulder is abused but its not the point. Fact is a car is in the hard shoulder so if you can safely move into the overtaking lane to give them some space you should.

It BeeMee

BrianD3 wrote: »

If driver 1 wants to show "courtesy" to those in the hard shoulder he should have slowed down rather than change lanes in front of a car that has already moved into the overtaking lane. It's not clear from the post how badly driver 2 was impeded (if at all) It may be that driver 1 could have slowed down and tucked in behind driver 2.

The OP says nothing about Driver 2 moving into the overtaking lane first.

However, the OP does indicate that the distance between the two cars dropped from circa 300m to circa 100 metres. Giving Driver 1 a generous 12 seconds to complete the manouvre, that would indicate a speed differential of approx 60km/hr!

If the speed differential is indeed that significant, then Driver 2 may well be justified in feeling Driver 1 set out to impede him.

Nevertheless he should have seen the car on the hard shoulder and understood Driver 1's actions.

BrianD3 wrote: »

Also, re: showing courtesy to those in the hard shoulder - a lot of the time those in the HS shouldn't be there in the first place. People seem to think it's OK to walk or cycle in the HS, stop to swop drivers, stop to answer a mobile phone etc.

Other than motorways, it is ok for people to walk, cycle etc on the hard shoulder.

bladebrew

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Em hold on driver 2 was driving at over the speed of sound, sounding the horn wouldnt do much

:D:D

jimmyw

BrianD3 wrote: »

If driver 1 wants to show "courtesy" to those in the hard shoulder he should have slowed down rather than change lanes in front of a car that has already moved into the overtaking lane. It's not clear from the post how badly driver 2 was impeded (if at all) It may be that driver 1 could have slowed down and tucked in behind driver 2.

Scenario sounds a bit like when drivers jump into the overtaking lane to facilitate drivers merging onto the M-way and end up inconveniencing those already in the overtaking lane. Misplaced courtesy.

Also, re: showing courtesy to those in the hard shoulder - a lot of the time those in the HS shouldn't be there in the first place. People seem to think it's OK to walk or cycle in the HS, stop to swop drivers, stop to answer a mobile phone etc. The there's the ones who have a valid reason for being there (eg changing a wheel) but don't have the cop on to move their car as far in off the road as possible. Recently I saw an eejit changing a wheel with his arse sticking out into the road.

Is it not better to do that than to keep driving while taking the call? I know its dangerous to stop on the HS except for an emergency. Yes cyclists, pedestrians,tractors and learner drivers are all banned from using motorways alright. On the other issue, driver 1 did not have to move over for the people on the HS, but driver 2 should be enough distance behind driver 1 to be able to slow/stop as required.What if there was a lorry on lane 1? they are not allowed to use the other lanes so the people on the shoulder would have to put up with the wind from them which is alot more than it is with a car.

challengemaster

LIGHTNING wrote: »

Em hold on driver 2 was driving at over the speed of sound, sounding the horn wouldnt do much

Yeah, was thinking there was something strange alright... blah, brain scrambled studying for maths exam, must have missed the decimal <_<

Fair enough then, driver 2 was wrong

Midnight_EG

bmw535d wrote: »

"One of the main skills in driving is learning to anticipate hazards before they happen, those that can master this tend to drive their whole lives without a crash."

+1
very true, i amaze my son wile accompanieng him wile hes learning, id say "watch that guy up the road he's going to pull out, or open the door," nothing beats experience no matter how good of a driver you are.

What's so amazing about being able to point out somebody that is clearly going to pull out of a side road, considering he has his indicator on and is pointing in the general direction, and then it isn't good awareness to be able to say 'open the door'?

Victor

Did the stopped driver and/or Driver 1 use their hazard lights?

Del2005

jimmyw wrote: »

Is it not better to do that than to keep driving while taking the call? I know its dangerous to stop on the HS except for an emergency. Yes cyclists, pedestrians,tractors and learner drivers are all banned from using motorways alright. On the other issue, driver 1 did not have to move over for the people on the HS, but driver 2 should be enough distance behind driver 1 to be able to slow/stop as required.What if there was a lorry on lane 1? they are not allowed to use the other lanes so the people on the shoulder would have to put up with the wind from them which is alot more than it is with a car.

Never stop on a motorway to take a call, you deserve what you get but the person who hits you doesn't. Hard shoulders are one of the most dangerous parts of the motorway. Trucks can't drive in the overtaking lane of 3 lane motorways, they can still use lanes 1 and 2

Victor

Del2005 wrote: »

Trucks can't drive in the overtaking lane of 3 lane motorways, they can still use lanes 1 and 2

Thats the rule in the UK. Here they aren't allow use the right-most lane unless the speed limit is 80km/h or less.

cormie

Does that mean they aren't allowed in the right hand lane of a 2 lane motorway at all victor?

jimmyw

I thought trucks could not use even lane 2, but apparently not:o

http://www.rulesoftheroad.ie/rules-for-driving/motorways/on-the-motorway.html

slimjimmc

cormie wrote: »

Does that mean they aren't allowed in the right hand lane of a 2 lane motorway at all victor?

Correct. Trucks are banned from the overtaking lane (the lane nearest the central median) on all motorways regardless of how many lanes they have, any other lane is ok. There are a few exceptions such as when all other lanes are blocked (not just moving slowly) or when the speed limit is 80kph or less.

cormie

Thanks, would definitely have sympathy for any trucker trying to overtake a slower moving vehicle and getting done for it if it was safe to do so. What defines a truck anyway? Is there a certain weight it has to be to be classed as not allowed in the overtaking lane?

Marlow

jimmyw wrote: »

Is it not better to do that than to keep driving while taking the call?

You are not supposed to stop on the motorway in any lane, including the hard shoulder. The only exception is in designated parking bays. The hard should is only, for when you're broken down.

Not for phone calls, not for taking a nap, not ever. If you don't have a handsfree in your car, switch your phone off and don't take the call. There is no excuse.

/M

GTE

Midnight_EG wrote: »

What's so amazing about being able to point out somebody that is clearly going to pull out of a side road, considering he has his indicator on and is pointing in the general direction

You didn't understand his post. I'm puzzled you think he's talking about when someone is indicating because it could only mean when the driver is not.

To the newb driver which I was recently when you begin to drive you don't notice movements inside another car as you would say a year into driving. The experience is being able to see a person in a car that looks to be readying himself to pull out like an ass with no indicators etc.

Its common sense to notice indicators, its the experience that lets you read what other road users may be about to do in situations described.