Eircom to cut broadband over illegal downloads - READ POST#1 WARNING

zenno

QUOTE: And you're trying to defend these scum?

no i am not trying to defend this scum. all i'm saying is if they are that worried about losing sales as they are then these scum should invest in some new kind of security which it seems like it's impossible to do now according to fellow commenters here. if thats the final case then they are screwed until they come up with an ingenious idea of some sorts. this is the reckoning now as of the 17th of june chorus/ntl upc will be in court as will a few smaller isp's. if chorus/ntl upc fail in this case then it looks like that will be a huge problem imo.

dick doyle say's, QUOTE: we would take it for granted that others will be following. we intend to take legal proceedings against those that refuse to follow suit.

lol imo the government will have to change the law for upc to comply it's that simple.

this whole idea was rushed and with total disregard to people that are not computer savy with their security router settings "i.e an intruder on their line using torrents without their knowledge" this will be a major problem in future court cases.

jimi_t2

zenno wrote: »

all i'm saying is if they are that worried about losing sales as they are then these scum should invest in some new kind of security which it seems like it's impossible to do now according to fellow commenters here. if thats the final case then they are screwed

They are, and they know it, but they'll take one last stab.

It's like a wounded animal dying. You never go near any of them bigger than you because the last thing they'll do is to try and take you down with them.

lol imo the government will have to change the law for upc to comply it's that simple.

IF UPC (A) Fight the case and (B) Win the case and don't settle out of court.

Its nowhere near a forgone conclusion like some people seem to think.

this whole idea was rushed and with total disregard to people that are not computer savy with their security router settings "i.e an intruder on their line using torrents without their knowledge" this will be a major problem in future court cases.

Legally you can be damn sure that once the Eircom engineer leaves the house, its your liability.

If not, we get into the hilariously nasty area of subpoeanas and confiscation of computer and backup media to verify these claims. Anyone who is accused is generally going to have sheds of movies/mp3s in the house and will quickly back down. They are well aware of this.

Someone will jump down my throat and call it a conspiracy theory and say ''Oh, but they can't do it to EVERYONE''.

They don't need to. They just need to make an example of a few people and the rest will fall in line

jimi_t2

For all intents and purposes the IRMA are the Irish branch of the RIAA.

Same lobbying. Same labels. Same Purpose.

I leave you with this lovely little number (completely true btw, from cracked.com)



And who the f*ck has enough money to legally correct them on this matter?

Scram

jimi_t2 wrote: »

For all intents and purposes the IRMA are the Irish branch of the RIAA.

Same lobbying. Same labels. Same Purpose.

I leave you with this lovely little number (completely true btw, from cracked.com)



And who the f*ck has enough money to legally correct them on this matter?

that is awesome!

jimi_t2

BrianD wrote: »

I disagree with the musician who claims that illegal music downloads only hurts the majors. It doesn't. It hurts the little guy too.

Fair enough, but could you explain why?

The vast vast vast majority of music pirated is Top 40 Chart. On any given day the figure is about 70% odd (citation someone? can't seem to find it)

Any indie or boutique label you'd care to mention is operating on a much more level playing field compared to ten years ago. Label growth since the advent of the internet has been exponential, and a lot of musicians have given two fingers to the system and set up their own label.

Take ''techno'' or the vast majority of electronic labels for example. The majority of the labels are just groups of musicians with the most business minded or financially successful one becoming the head of the label. It costs a couple of hundred to get yourself out there as a proper label. Any necessary expertise they can subcontract.

Their music? They spend most of their time sending it out for free to blogs, DJs and reviewers. This is pretty much what the big boys do, but the lads don't really care what happens to it at this stage. They know its leaked, but being the ''good guys'' people generally tend to buy the track on beatport or similar site anyway as they know the money goes to the artist.

They're never going to make money off physical media. Neither will they do any great shakes selling digitally. If one of the big DJs gets a hold of their track and plays it, they can pretty much write their own ticket for gigging thereafter. If it gets licensed for an ad/movie/game, the ARTISTS maintain their mechanical rights in the vast majority of cases and they can pretty much retire.


I know of 4 or 5 Irish electronic artists who went through this very process.

2 of them now have their own label. All of them agree that had they been ''lucky'' enough to sign with a major initially, that they'd have their tune remixed for radio play, they'd get milked for 2 months and then end up on the dole a year later.

You cut out the middleman almost entirely and avoid ridiculous situations.



As an aside, do you remember ''Happy Together'' by the Turtles?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_4NBpOaS3qM

MASSIVE hit. Yet they ended up owing MASSIVE amounts of money

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5JHN5HaUg28

Granted this is not intrinsically the labels fault, but this hopefully illustrates how the music industry works and the mentality of the people in it. It is by far the most cut throat industry in the western world, its just more subtle than big oil or pharma.

zenno

jimi_t2 wrote: »

For all intents and purposes the IRMA are the Irish branch of the RIAA.

Same lobbying. Same labels. Same Purpose.

I leave you with this lovely little number (completely true btw, from cracked.com)



And who the f*ck has enough money to legally correct them on this matter?

I couldn't agree more.

QUOTE: people generally tend to buy the track on beatport or similar site anyway as they know the money goes to the artist.

this is the thing most people will support cash going to the artist and cut out the middle parasite called the RIAA/IRMI

Cabaal

zenno wrote: »

well imo only i say tough to them. it is up to the music industry/artists to secure their work whether it be a cd/mp3. we all use security all the time for our own things. it's about time they done the same and create new security to stop people been able to download it. they are lazy when it comes to this important point. drm is cracked so no point in using that. but i'm sure with all the money the music business is making they could invest in high tech security to secure their stuff. but they won't bother to do this. it should be mandatory for music companies to insure their artists are secured with proper programming security inbedded on disc. if it get's cracked eventually they should be on the ball and have updated security ready to implement. this is simular to ntl/box security codes when people were able to watch all channels without paying. they put a stop to that after spending cash on good security. install this security on all manufactured discs and it will make it harder and harder for crackers to crack and will slow the tide of music uploads.

:rolleyes:
I'm not even going to waste my time showing you the numerous holes in your argument

axer clearly however has sense and see's that your argument is flawed, shame he wasted his time posting because I doubt it'll make any difference to your very very flawed argument

.Moosejam wrote: »

Well one thing is for sure with this arrangement in place there will be a lot of new work for IRMA, you can be sure this thread is being read by them and it wouldn't surprise me if certain individuals are headhunted given their stance in this thread.

"Head Hunted" in what way exactly, you think IRMA will track down pro-copyright theft people on this forum somehow? If thats your belief yoiu have a lack of understanding of how boards.ie works and the situations in which boards.ie will allow you data to be shared.

On the other hand if you think IRMA will some how "hire" people that have posted in this thread to help them then you have misunderstand how IRMA work

z0oT

jimi_t2 wrote: »

Labels were there traditionally because bands couldn't afford to produce a radio friendly polished track. They'd get a ****ty demo down on a fourtrack and hope an A&R guy wouldn't make them sell their souls to get down to a proper studio. Mastering and mixing was a dark art and even entry-level equipment could set you back the price of a small house.

Now all barriers to entry are gonzo and digital distribution is the key.

To be honest with all the technology nowadays the purpose of a Record Label is essentially dead.

The main purposes of a Record Label are such:
Provide the necessary resources to actually produce the Music - This is no problem with the advanced software packages and audio interfaces one can pick up for a couple of hundred of euro. As a musician myself I've recorded a lot of my own music doing just that. The necessary equipment set me back maybe 600 or so. The DAW software package occupying most of that. The quality with a bit of tweaking can be just as good as a professional recording studio if not better.

Distribute the Music - With the internet today this is completely redundant. One can upload stuff to the internet and within hours it can be all over the world.

Market the Music - Admittedly this is the hardest to replace, because as many people have said here the Label have DEEP pockets and thus the bit of marketing they do is only pennies to them anyway. But theoretically an aspiring band could probably gain popularity via the internet be it via say their youtube channel or something else. Sites like the Pirate Bay also help (Rednex are a very good example here), but probably in the grand scope of things may not be enough. I wouldn't be surprized to see a site dedicated to artists marketting music directly to their fans crops up (it there isn't one already).

That's not to say we could automatically jump into a world whereby the investment the Labels provide in Music would be automatically be not needed. Regardless of how you look at it, music is going to require investment to be brought to market, money which an aspiring artist isn't going to have, but honestly the current purpose of the record labels is redundant.

The labels seem to be living in fantasy world whereby their outdated business model will automatically generate them obscene profits if they can cut out all internet downloading (which'll never happen no matter how many ISPs they bully or politicians they bribe). It's really amazing how short sited and pigheadded they are. People through, the growth of online distribution, have collectively said that that's what the market wants. It's all very very simple at the end of the day -

Give people what they want, when they want, how they want at a price they can afford and they will come to you.

Bullying ISPs, bribing goverments, and suing teenagers really is pointless in the grand scope of things as it accomplishes nothing.

logic

I think these illegal uploaders/downloaders are getting off lightly compared to the civil cases issued before. You can always go to another isp, more so now that mobile broadband is nearly countrywide.

Johnboy1951

jor el wrote: »

Yawns wrote:

No and the next step would be your not allowed to have a friend or family member in the same room while you listen to it unless they bought the cd too. Well why not head down that route people? May as well to be honest.

Nonsense.

It may be worthwhile having a look at the situation which pertains in Australia before dismissing this out of hand.
I do not have direct experience, but it has been reported to me that a similar situation exists in Aus regarding the playback of recorded TV programming.
No, I do not have a good reference ...... it is just hearsay really.

Just thought you might have an interest in it.

RangeR

logic wrote: »

I think these illegal uploaders/downloaders are getting off lightly compared to the civil cases issued before. You can always go to another isp, more so now that mobile broadband is nearly countrywide.

There is no such thing as mobile broadband. mobile internet is no substitute for broadband.

death1234567

jimi_t2 wrote: »

I leave you with this lovely little number (completely true btw, from cracked.com)

I only paid $1,487,234 for the entire vanilla ice collection, Bargain.

evolutionqy7

one thing i dont get how come the internet companies block access to certain sites when you pay for the broadband?

why dont the people who's copy rights are violated go after the people who put their content on the internet in the first place...

jimi_t2

evolutionqy7 wrote: »

one thing i dont get how come the internet companies block access to certain sites when you pay for the broadband?

why dont the people who's copy rights are violated go after the people who put their content on the internet in the first place...

Because they tried that and it didn't work.

Now they'll do anything they can get away with.

oulira

For those of you interested, Eircom have posted an outline of this process on their homepage :

http://www.eircom.net/notification/legalmusic/faqs

evolutionqy7

jimi_t2 wrote: »

Because they tried that and it didn't work.

Now they'll do anything they can get away with.

i dont get it how come the internet comapies have to do the dirty work?

i pay for access to internet...i want to get the full package...if a certain originator is not happy let him find a way to prevent illegal obtaining methods...

jimi_t2

evolutionqy7 wrote: »

i dont get it how come the internet comapies have to do the dirty work?

Because your contract is with the ISP as opposed to the IRMA. They've tried suing elsewhere and it didn't work. In a country as small as Ireland if they tried to pull that **** en-masse they'd either be laughed at or a a suspicious looking pit of quicklime would be found up the Wicklow mountains.

i pay for access to internet...i want to get the full package...if a certain originator is not happy let him find a way to prevent illegal obtaining methods...

Well yeah, in a perfect utopian world that'd be the case.

Unfortunately Eircom have a nice long track record of not giving a **** about their customers. They're still in their Monopoly/Oligopoly mindset from around the time the shares floated (remember that? we were all going to be millionaires!).

axer

oulira wrote: »

For those of you interested, Eircom have posted an outline of this process on their homepage :

http://www.eircom.net/notification/legalmusic/faqs

In fairness, this explains it all.

1. They are only disconnecting home users
2. They will talk it through with the user on how to stop file sharing (so this will cover hacked wireless routers I would assume)
3. They will refund customers for the time they are without broadband (from what I can see they disconnect the service for 7 times every time).
4. People can dispute the findings with eircom via the telephone number
5. They will not be passing any customer details to IRMA etc
6. Eircom will not be monitoring any internet traffic.

I hope that is the end of people's mis-information.

miralize

Switched to UPC a few months ago. Best decision I could have made

jimi_t2

z0oT wrote: »

Market the Music - Admittedly this is the hardest to replace, because as many people have said here the Label have DEEP pockets and thus the bit of marketing they do is only pennies....

Not any more thankfully! You can do a reasonable promotion of an album in the digital domain for free. Word of mouth tends to do the rest (Think: Arctic Monkeys, Crystal Swing, Radioheads ''In Rainbows'' etc...)

I wouldn't be surprized to see a site dedicated to artists marketing music directly to their fans crops up (it there isn't one already).

Last.fm? Pandora? Myspace? Soundcloud? Facebook? Boards.ie? Garageband? Beatport? iTunes? Their own website?

music is going to require investment to be brought to market, money which an aspiring artist isn't going to have

Its better for an aspiring artist to have some small bit of money behind him, if only to make him/her serious about pursuing a career and taking it ''seriously''. There's enough ''hobbyists'' out there.

oulira

axer wrote: »

In fairness, this explains it all.

1. They are only disconnecting home users
2. They will talk it through with the user on how to stop file sharing (so this will cover hacked wireless routers I would assume)
3. They will refund customers for the time they are without broadband (from what I can see they disconnect the service for 7 times every time).
4. People can dispute the findings with eircom via the telephone number
5. They will not be passing any customer details to IRMA etc
6. Eircom will not be monitoring any internet traffic.

I hope that is the end of people's mis-information.

Yes .
Also remember for the first three months it is just a pilot scheme, no more than 50 people will be contacted each week - thats about 600 people over the next three months out of 750,000 customers .
That's just about 0.08% of the Eircom userbase that will be the 'guinea pigs' .

jimi_t2

axer wrote: »

4. People can dispute the findings with eircom via the telephone number

Yeah, with some poor Indian guy reading off a worksheet and getting paid minimum wage to deal with at least 50 irate Irish people a week, most of whom wouldn't even have the slightest grasp of Irish law but enjoy shouting at the top of their lungs regarding it.

6. Eircom will not be monitoring any internet traffic.

Oh really? How the hell are they able to operate as an ISP then?

I hope that is the end of people's mis-information.

Nope (and I'm not being ''Fight the Powa!!'' here) - it just put a spin on the platitudes Eircoms PR team are spinning.

Seriously, the track record this company has in even providing the service you pay for is less than admirable. Do a little search on boards here and you'll see what I mean.

axer

jimi_t2 wrote: »

Yeah, with some poor Indian guy reading off a worksheet and getting paid minimum wage to deal with at least 50 irate Irish people a week, most of whom wouldn't even have the slightest grasp of Irish law but enjoy shouting at the top of their lungs regarding it.

Have you rang the number or something?

jimi_t2 wrote: »

Oh really? How the hell are they able to operate as an ISP then?

Come of it. An ISP doesn't have to monitor what each individual is using the internet for to be an ISP.

jimi_t2 wrote: »

Nope (and I'm not being ''Fight the Powa!!'' here) - it just put a spin on the platitudes Eircoms PR team are spinning.

Seriously, the track record this company has in even providing the service you pay for is less than admirable. Do a little search on boards here and you'll see what I mean.

Now you're just deflecting.

jimi_t2

axer wrote: »

Have you rang the number or something?

No, but I've dealt with many aspects of Eircom administration and customer service on numerous occasions and I've no reason to surmise that this will be any different.

Come of it. .

Come off it yourself. Were you just expecting everyone to unilaterally agree with you that a company of questionable moral and ethical practices had now cleared up any ''misinformation''?

So yeah, I'm going to pull someone up on it - but its Eircom, not you.

They stated categorically, on the website, that

6. Eircom will not be monitoring any internet traffic.

rather than your interpretation

An ISP doesn't have to monitor what each individual is using the internet for to be an ISP

EDIT: After jumping the link I see that you were misquoting from the website in your first post. My bad.

Now you're just deflecting.

Ehm, no I'm not. I'm support my argument using prior anecdotal evidence of misconduct by the company in a number of areas.

thomashood10

They're actually doing this very reasonably all things considered.

As long as they listen to you when you invariably end up "disputing" it with them.

jor el

jimi_t2 wrote: »

No, but I've dealt with many aspects of Eircom administration and customer service on numerous occasions and I've no reason to surmise that this will be any different.

I've warned people enough times about idiotic speculation so you can have a week off to calm down. You've also obviously not read any of the information from the link that was paraphrased by axer.

tazzzZ

If i have bought the rights to own a song by bying the cd in a shop. said cd breaks and i want to continue listening to the song have i the right to download it as i have already bought that right?

evolutionqy7

axer wrote: »

In fairness, this explains it all.

1. They are only disconnecting home users

i think that has to do something to eircom not being able to provide stable broadband rather than some one next doors downloading donkey porn...

you should have to experience slow broadband cause your neighbour is trying to watch youtube 1080HD...

and lol to all ISP's...internet speed improvements in america started in around 2002 maybe earlier/ they couldnt do that in a small little island in half a year?...pff 2010 eircom and upc only starting it now...2020 they might finish dublin part only...2050 ireland country side still stuck with mobile broadband...GREAT SUCCESS

axer

tazzzZ wrote: »

If i have bought the rights to own a song by bying the cd in a shop. said cd breaks and i want to continue listening to the song have i the right to download it as i have already bought that right?

The person are downloading from does not have the right to share it with you so no you don't have the right to download it from someone who doesn't have the right to distribute.

tazzzZ

should that not be an issue for their ISP as opposed to my own?