Infrastructure for electric cars: a good or bad idea?

maninasia

There's been a very slow take-up of electric cars, obviously the economic crisis in Ireland has not helped either. My idea of people owning a petrol family car and a electric car for city run arounds didn't catch on when many can just afford to keep one car on the road and don't have the money to shell out for new technology with new risks. Many just jumped on a bicycle. Those that do have money and want something more efficient have overwhelmingly gone for the hybrids (which I did predict), which are still only a tiny fraction of the total of new cars sold. Hybrids offer great mileage and great performance so I this one as coming down to economic issues again, the need to shell out so much up front for a new car. Eventually hybrids will evolve into electric cars as battery charging and capacity improves, the engine will not be neccessary.

I still see electric cars storming back in a few years, perhaps 3rd time lucky, I could see this really happening first in the guise of shared car programs where you charge per mile or per hour use.

Netherland's experience with electric cars-
http://www.nytimes.com/2013/02/10/world/europe/dutch-put-electric-cars-to-the-test.html?_r=0

antoobrien

I've noticed the public charging points going up in various spots around the country, including the so obvious it's brain-dead location of the N4 service stations - without which it is not possible to get one of these dinkys across the country.

foggy_lad

antoobrien wrote: »

I've noticed the public charging points going up in various spots around the country, including the so obvious it's brain-dead location of the N4 service stations - without which it is not possible to get one of these dinkys across the country.

But who is going to stay at the services for more thsn 8hours or overnight while their batteries charge? There is one at the bus park in Carlow and many commuter railway stations are getting one but what happens if two electric cars turn up?

Aidan1

But who is going to stay at the services for more thsn 8hours or overnight while their batteries charge?

These are fast charge stations - 20 mins for 80% charge.

Essential problem is that the cars aren't really up to snuff yet - give it 2-3 years and that'll start to change.

antoobrien

foggy_lad wrote: »

But who is going to stay at the services for more thsn 8hours or overnight while their batteries charge?

The fast chargers are supposed to give 80% charge in 25 mins, presumably the service station ones will have the fast settings.

foggy_lad

I dont believe it adds up myself. Overnight for full charge but 80% in only 25minutes. Something not quite right about the figures. Is the quick charge not just an emergency get you home charge and not designed for powering a fully laden vehicle?

loyatemu

my experience of NiCd batteries (possibly not applicable to EV batteries) is that fast charging is bad for the cells and they last a lot longer if you discharge them fully and then recharge them slowly. Maybe this is why the home chargers work more slowly?

Heroditas

loyatemu wrote: »

my experience of NiCd batteries (possibly not applicable to EV batteries) is that fast charging is bad for the cells and they last a lot longer if you discharge them fully and then recharge them slowly. Maybe this is why the home chargers work more slowly?

I think a lot of it also has to do with the existing distribution network.
If they introduced fast chargers, they'd need to upgrade the network significantly. The return on investment would not be there currently.

foggy_lad

http://www.hybridcars.com/13-key-questions-and-answers-about-nissan-leaf-battery-pack-and-ordering-28007/

How long will the battery pack last?

After 10 years, 70 to 80 percent of the pack’s capacity will be left. The exact amount will depend on how much (440-volt) fast charging is done—as well as environmental factors, such as extreme hot weather, which is tough on the battery.

There are some situations which will arise more often than not regarding recharging stations - you plug your car in to recharge and the cable has been cut by vandals, you plug in at your local station and head off to work on the train and while there some little scrote unplugs your car or damages the charger, the charger does not accept your credit card.

Aidan1

Overnight for full charge but 80% in only 25minutes. Something not quite right about the figures

Leaving aside the fact that charging is asymtotic, the fast chargers essentially can pass a higher charge (44kw/h or 50kw/h) than the home chargers, which run at something like 3.6kw/h.

ESB explain it here;

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-categories.jsp

Stonewolf

I'm much more interested in range-extended EVs than either regular EVs or more conventional hybrids though the Model-S does look rather nice.

Realistically, I drive a landie and it'll be a long time before performance is up to scratch for that.

lockon...

The cost to replace the battery pack in the Nissan Leaf is £19,000 sterling. This battery needs to be replaced after 10years.

foggy_lad

lockon... wrote: »

The cost to replace the battery pack in the Nissan Leaf is £19,000 sterling. This battery needs to be replaced after 10years.

Taking wear and tear into account it would be cheaper to scrap the car and buy a new one! This is also going to seriously affect the second hand price for these electric cars.

maninasia

This is the key point, the massive depreciation on the battery packs.
That's why I say these things will probably be run in rental fleets/shared car fleets first, as they will need professional management of the batteries (which they may also lease from Nissan/Toyota under financing arrangements).

IF you can take the battery costs out of the equation somehow, then it becomes very attractive due to lower fuel and maintenance and tax costs.

foggy_lad

maninasia wrote: »

This is the key point, the massive depreciation on the battery packs.
That's why I say these things will probably be run in rental fleets/shared car fleets first, as they will need professional management of the batteries (which they may also lease from Nissan/Toyota under financing arrangements).

IF you can take the battery costs out of the equation somehow, then it becomes very attractive due to lower fuel and maintenance and tax costs.

I cant see those proposed quick change charging places working either where you could easily be swopping your new cars battery for someone elses knackered old set.

Aidan1

The cost to replace the battery pack in the Nissan Leaf is £19,000 sterling

Really? I was told it was more likely to be €10k.

Batteries - the cost and the capacity are the main issues. Both will most likely be dealt with over time as more companies invest and drive R&D, both for pure BEVs and all maner of hybrids (including PHEVs). The capacity and cost ration is improving all the time. The Leaf is an interim design, as is the Fluence EV - first generation and very expensive for what they can do. Think 1st Gen iPod. The really interesting designs are starting to appear on the horizon, including the BMW i3 and the first commercial Audi EVs. And then there's the R&D driven by the likes of the Porsche 918 and the new Ferrari. EVs are coming - only problem is that it'll be at least 3 more years before they can start to compete (and probably more like 5 before they actually do). In the mean time, if you want, Renault will sell you a car and lease you the battery. The Zoe is a cool looking little car, for example.

lockon...

Aidan1 wrote: »

Really? I was told it was more likely to be €10k.

Batteries - the cost and the capacity are the main issues. Both will most likely be dealt with over time as more companies invest and drive R&D, both for pure BEVs and all maner of hybrids (including PHEVs). The capacity and cost ration is improving all the time. The Leaf is an interim design, as is the Fluence EV - first generation and very expensive for what they can do. Think 1st Gen iPod. The really interesting designs are starting to appear on the horizon, including the BMW i3 and the first commercial Audi EVs. And then there's the R&D driven by the likes of the Porsche 918 and the new Ferrari. EVs are coming - only problem is that it'll be at least 3 more years before they can start to compete (and probably more like 5 before they actually do). In the mean time, if you want, Renault will sell you a car and lease you the battery. The Zoe is a cool looking little car, for example.

Whatever price they are €10,000 vs £19,000 - it's still crazy money and will kill the 2nd hand market.

Andy Palmer, Nissan GB’s senior vice-president, told the paper that the lithium ion battery is made up of 48 modules. He said that each would cost £404 to replace, making £19,392 for the entire battery pack. He said that most owners would not need a new battery for at least ten years because electric vehicles should mainly be used for short journeys.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/8674273/Electric-car-owners-may-face-19000-battery-charge.html

I can't find the euro figures for the Renault Zoe but in the UK it's £93pm (36 month contract) for battery if you want to travel 12,000miles a year. I'd like to know the small print - what happens after the lease agreement ends, what happens if you go over the mileage limit etc.

Stonewolf

I believe there are groups looking at the battery ownership issue.

One model is basically that you buy the car and pay for a battery service so that when you rock up to the M/Way services they just swap your battery out (quickly and mechanically rather than in a greasy boilersuited manner). You never actually own the battery itself you just pay a subscription for it.

The advantages of this are that it's a lot closer to the petrol idiom in terms of usage and the cost of the car itself is significantly lowered. You do have an "extra" cost but this is analogous to fuel and includes the cost of electricity on swapping (perhaps also at home if you have an appropriate installation).

The infrastructural requirements though are such that you need to have a lot of suitably equipped cars on the road before it becomes viable.

OssianSmyth

Maybe the concept of electric car infrastructure is confused. Do we need an electric car infrastructure in the same way we need petrol or diesel or hydrogen or natural gas distribution?

An EV needs a charger which is connected to the existing electricity grid. A fast charger like this one costs €10,000 and gives you 20KW. Attach it to a 3 phase power supply and that's it. There are about 1,000 petrol stations in Ireland so to equip each would be about €10m plus installation. Barely enough to pay for 5 train carriages or 1km of motorway.

Most electric car owners use them as urban runabouts, charging every second night at home and rarely using a street charger. However there needs to be a wide network of chargers before people would consider buying an EV. An average car is driven 50km per day and for less than an hour.

Sales don't tell you much. Global production is still in the 10's of thousands per year so sales can't exceed that. There was one model on the Irish market at the start of last year and two this year. Early adopters will pay more and get less as ever. There is of course no free market for cars. Governments set the taxes and subsidies that determine people's choice of vehicle. In Norway, where regular cars are taxed more highly than in Ireland and EVs get free parking and free tolls, Leaf made it into the top 10 of best selling vehicles last year.

Strangely, it seems that frequency of charging has less effect on battery life than average external temperature and temperature deviation. In Arizona, Leaf batteries may last less than 5 years. In Ireland with our low average temperatures and small difference between winter and summer, batteries may last 15 years. (end of life is taken as 70% capacity remaining) There is a long discussion on this page: http://www.mynissanleaf.com/wiki/index.php?title=Battery_Capacity_Loss

When the battery is at 70%, it will presumably have some value as backup for wind turbines or for recycle. A 10 year old car has little value in any case. What is the value of 10 years of fuel savings? It depends on the future price of oil and electricity. What will batteries cost in 10 yrs time? Lithium batteries have fallen 80% in price since 1990.

Time will tell.

Merch

Stonewolf wrote: »

I believe there are groups looking at the battery ownership issue.

One model is basically that you buy the car and pay for a battery service so that when you rock up to the M/Way services they just swap your battery out (quickly and mechanically rather than in a greasy boilersuited manner). You never actually own the battery itself you just pay a subscription for it.

The advantages of this are that it's a lot closer to the petrol idiom in terms of usage and the cost of the car itself is significantly lowered. You do have an "extra" cost but this is analogous to fuel and includes the cost of electricity on swapping (perhaps also at home if you have an appropriate installation).

The infrastructural requirements though are such that you need to have a lot of suitably equipped cars on the road before it becomes viable.

I cant really see people doing long journeys leaning towards electric powered vehicles, what if they rock up the service station and there are no batteries? It would be even worse than turning up to somewhere that can charge your vehicle and having a que ahead of you to use charging points.
How would an organisation manage and allocate where the batteries (large heavy components) will go???and then transport them with the associated cost (fuel/energy) to those locations.
What if everyone travels at the same time? or given the uptake of electric vehicles might be sporadic based on the ability of people to afford them and where and when they might travel, a whole network dedicated to moving batteries around seems, inefficient.

Replacing batteries is an even worse idea than public (non secure) charging. I wonder will there be anti vandal measures that prevent someone unplugging the charge lead or damage to your battery if someone decides to chop the charging lead with an insulated cropper? People do stupid things.

Not to mention, do the materials for large scale battery production exist? if so, what will be the environmental damage of producing batteries or the carbon footprint of manufacture and transport? it will have to be hugely subsidised to be cost effective, and does it really outweigh current or improved Co2 output or overall fuel usage, transporting batteries around to where they might be needed sounds like a logistical nightmare and an inefficient one.

I think people considering this will be those that can save money on fuel by charging at home, when such a situation is secure and they do less/same max mileage as the vehicle is capable of and know where they will be taking the vehicle, probably having a back up second car anyway (petrol/diesel) for long journeys.
The only idea Ive seen that seemed to be a possibility for long range movement of electric vehicles was in conjunction with railways, ie drive electric vehicle up to its max range to train station, car/vehicle is boarded and charged during journey and then disembarks charged ready for another journey, but even that has flaws (not detailed here).

antoobrien

OssianSmyth wrote: »

Strangely, it seems that frequency of charging has less effect on battery life than average external temperature and temperature deviation.

Not that strange at all, there's a reason there are operating temperature ranges printed in the manuals for all electronics. They don't often put in the optimum temperatures but it's usually 5c-20c.

The NYTimes did a writeup last week on a practical test of driving one of the Tesla S, which has a theoretical 265 mile (425km) range.

Unfortunately the practical test is far more downbeat than the review. The journo took it on a road trip from Washington to Boston on the I95 in December, planning to use the two fast charging stations along the route which are supposed to be well spaced for the model used. In summary he drove & charged the car as one expects a normal human to do and barley for the car to Boston, with utter an failure to get to the first station on the way back.

Tesla’s chief technology officer, J B Straubel, acknowledged that the two East Coast charging stations were at the mileage limit of the Model S’s real-world range. Making matters worse, cold weather inflicts about a 10 percent range penalty, he said, and running the heater draws yet more energy. He added that some range-related software problems still needed to be sorted out.

“It’s disappointing to me when things don’t work smoothly,” Mr. Straubel said in a post-mortem of my test drive. “It takes more planning than a typical gasoline car, no way around it.

What was it Bertie said? - a lot done, more to do.

ManAboutCouch

Regarding that NYTimes writeup, there are accusations that the reviewer took a long detour and didn't fully charge the car.

Tesla motors have detailed logs of the journey (something they do for media test-drives ever since the slating they got on Top Gear a few years back) but these haven't been released yet.

Still, I think we are somewhere between 5 to 10 years away from the point where a fully electric vehicle is a realistic option here in Ireland. Until that point hybrids and high efficiency initiatives (like BlueMotion) are probably the better option.

johnny-grunge

I think it's only a matter of time before the majority of people are driving electric cars. We're going to need somewhere to charge them. However, I'm also of the opinion that more research should be done before placing charging stations around the place as we've an awful habit of rushing things and making a balls of them.

Sometime in the not too distant future a litre of fuel is going to cost €5 then €10 quid and so on. It's inevitable.

antoobrien

ManAboutCouch wrote: »

Regarding that NYTimes writeup, there are accusations that the reviewer took a long detour and didn't fully charge the car.

And the rebuttal is also available.

When I first charged the car, which was equipped with the highest-capacity battery available, of 85 kilowatt-hours, at the Tesla Supercharger station in Newark, Del., I left it connected to the cable for 49 minutes until the dash display read “Charging Complete.” The battery meter read 90 percent full, with a range of 242 miles.

I was not directed by anyone at Tesla at any time to then switch to the Max Range setting and wait to top off the battery. If I had, I might have picked up an additional 25 or so miles of range, but that would have taken as long as 30 additional minutes.

As for the detour and accusations of inefficient use of the car

Mr. Musk has referred to a “long detour” on my trip. He is apparently referring to a brief stop in Manhattan on my way to Connecticut that, according to Google Maps, added precisely two miles to the overall distance traveled from the Delaware Supercharger to Milford (202 miles with the stop versus 200 miles had I taken the George Washington Bridge instead of the Lincoln Tunnel). At that point, I was already experiencing anxiety about range and had called a Tesla employee from the New Jersey Turnpike to ask how to stretch the battery. She said to shut off the cruise control to take advantage of battery regeneration from occasional braking and slowing down. Based on that advice, I was under the impression that stop-and-go driving at low speeds in the city would help, not hurt, my mileage.

Merch

johnny-grunge wrote: »

I think it's only a matter of time before the majority of people are driving electric cars. We're going to need somewhere to charge them. However, I'm also of the opinion that more research should be done before placing charging stations around the place as we've an awful habit of rushing things and making a balls of them.

Sometime in the not too distant future a litre of fuel is going to cost €5 then €10 quid and so on. It's inevitable.

And if/when motor/transport fuel does reach that point, dont you think the cost of fuel for electricity generation will also increase? heavy oil/gas/coal? especially if there is more demand as refined oils have become more expensive?

antoobrien wrote: »

And the rebuttal is also available.

Mr. Musk has referred to a “long detour” on my trip. He is apparently referring to a brief stop in Manhattan on my way to Connecticut that, according to Google Maps, added precisely two miles to the overall distance traveled from the Delaware Supercharger to Milford (202 miles with the stop versus 200 miles had I taken the George Washington Bridge instead of the Lincoln Tunnel). At that point, I was already experiencing anxiety about range and had called a Tesla employee from the New Jersey Turnpike to ask how to stretch the battery. She said to shut off the cruise control to take advantage of battery regeneration from occasional braking and slowing down. Based on that advice, I was under the impression that stop-and-go driving at low speeds in the city would help, not hurt, my mileage.
As for the detour and accusations of inefficient use of the car

I'm suprised they offered him that advice, Id have thought that maintaining a consistent speed using cruise control would use less battery power instead of relying on occasional braking and slowing for regeneration, especially as he said he was going to be using the I95 (a motorway/interstate)

johnny-grunge

I'm no expert but I'm sure energy can be obtained from other sources than burning stuff. Wind, wave, solar and nuclear to name a few. I'm sure you could put a human on a wheel to generate energy. There's always bio fuel but I don't think that has any real place in the future. The price of fuel will continue to rise. There really is no if about it.

antoobrien

Merch wrote: »

I'm suprised they offered him that advice, Id have thought that maintaining a consistent speed using cruise control would use less battery power instead of relying on occasional braking and slowing for regeneration, especially as he said he was going to be using the I95 (a motorway/interstate)

It's hard to credit and in the original article, after being advised to turn off the cruise control (without explaining why he was advised to do so), he does mention that the company admitted that this advice was wrong:

Nearing New York, I made the first of several calls to Tesla officials about my creeping range anxiety. The woman who had delivered the car told me to turn off the cruise control; company executives later told me that advice was wrong. All the while, my feet were freezing and my knuckles were turning white.

antoobrien

johnny-grunge wrote: »

I'm no expert but I'm sure energy can be obtained from other sources than burning stuff. Wind, wave, solar and nuclear to name a few. I'm sure you could put a human on a wheel to generate energy. There's always bio fuel but I don't think that has any real place in the future. The price of fuel will continue to rise. There really is no if about it.

There's a cost to putting the human on a wheel - how do you transport the food used to feed the gunea pig?

Since it seems to escape people just how much of our electricity is from CO2 producing sources here's a breakdown of just how much electricity is produced bt category:
Source | %
Coal | 41.4
Hydro | 15.4
Natural Gas | 20.8
Nuclear | 13.7
Oil | 5.3
Other | 3.8


Source:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/world/electricity-production-kwh-wb-data.html

Before e-cars can be regarded as green we have to get away from "dirty" sources of electricity. For practical reasons I'd much rather see investment go into investigating the safe storage and use of hydrogen fuels, which would not require a major overhaul of the refuelling network.

Aidan1

The problems with hydrogen over electricity for road transport are twofold. The first issue is the fact that there is an existing distribution mechanism for electricity, and that properly managed EV charging could actually reduce the price of electricity over time (by smoothing out the demand curve). For hydrogen you'd have to build an entirely new supply chain. The second issue is that it takes energy to make and compress hydrogen, usually electrical energy*.

On that basis it's really a question of the relative efficiency with which you can make and transport hydrogen using electricity vs the efficiency with which you can transmit and distribute electricity (loss of load), along with conversion losses to/from battery storage.

Either way, you still need more electricity generation capacity. Hydogen makes a lot of sense for other reasons though, and if storage could be resolved(or cheaper cracking of water) then hydrogen fuel cells are a real runner. Of course, those are essentially EVs, so fuel cell PHEVs might well be the optimal solution.

*Yes, some industrial processes already make hydrogen, and vent it as waste, but that 'free' volume would run out very quickly.

OssianSmyth

antoobrien wrote: »

here's a breakdown of just how much electricity is produced bt category:
Source | %
Coal | 41.4
Hydro | 15.4
Natural Gas | 20.8
Nuclear | 13.7
Oil | 5.3
Other | 3.8

By the above data, a third of electricity is produced from non-CO2 emitting sources. Individual countries will be different. Iceland is at 100% renewable electricity, Austria at 60%, Portugal and Sweden at 50%. Ireland will be at 40% in 8 years.

Additionally, power stations are twice as efficient as individual car engines, even allowing for distribution and charging losses. So there is a clear argument for using electricity rather than fossil fuels in cars - it's not just a case of burning the same amount of fuel in one place or another.