Infrastructure for electric cars: a good or bad idea?

bk

The billing system is already handled with the current chargers.

You are issued with an RFID card by ESB ecars, which you use to unlock the charging ports. The charging cable and ports are designed in such a way that they can't be pulled out, you have to use your RFID card to remove the cable.

To answer Wattys concerns:

1) The ESB will install a charging point in an apartment block car park if the management company give permission (they normally would, it increases the value of a development, no real reason to turn it down).

2) The chargers can be the versions that use the RFID cards, so you are charged for your actual usage.

3) The versions that use the RFID cards also lock the cable in, so they can't be removed by other people.

4) Charge points are usually placed in such a way that the car parks right up next to the charging point, so that people wouldn't be walking between them and risking a trip.

5) Vandalism is a risk, just like it is with anything. Your charging gear is as likely to be vandalised as anyones car is likely to be vandalised (keyed, slashed tires, etc.).

However I think people are less likely to vandalise electrical gear due to the risk (even if it is untrue) of being electrocuted.

Vandalism to your car and charging cable is covered by your insurance. The charger is covered by ESB ecars (and I assume their insurance company).

L1011

Aidan1 wrote: »

The next generation of BEVs will have higher capacity batteries again

So we've been told since 1990.

Stonewolf

Range anxiety will continue to be an issue until your car can manage 4 occupants plus weekend luggage for 3.5 hours at 120km/hr on a 30m fast-charge.

This is less than you'd expect of most modern ICE vehicles but it's the basic functional requirement of a long trip which all modern cars are expected to meet (longer trips are going to be broken into 3 hour stretches due to biology so you don't realistically need the extra range and the example presumes your car is not designed to take more than 4 adults on long trips which is pretty much the vast majority of cars (5 seat cars are, in the majority not intended to be used as such for long trips)). If your car can't do this then you will occasionally (or more often depending on your personal needs) find yourself without a suitable conveyance.

Compare this with probably the best example of a fully electric car, the Model S. It claims 200 miles at a pedestrian 55mph which just isn't good enough (our benchmark is 217 at 75) and that's single-occupancy which we can assume drops 30% when you add three passengers and weekend luggage. Even worse if it's cold or hot outside.

While I accept that for dawdling around the city electric cars are fine, until they can meet the long trip requirements people will still not buy them even if there are all the chargers in the world available. Hopefully when next I look at buying a car (I just bought one last year that's a while) they'll be better but at the moment they're not up to scratch.

In the meantime I wholly support rolling out better charging infrastructure as it will make life a lot easier when the day of the electric car does indeed come. As an addition to the scenario I presented above, I move house every year or so because I rent (and frankly the quality of rented accommodation and landlords in Ireland is such that I don't feel like ever staying put when my lease comes up). I know the corridors of power are full of people for whom such a lifestyle is anathema and illogical so how hard is it to get the ESB in with a charger if you've already had them in before elsewhere?

maninasia

While I accept that for dawdling around the city electric cars are fine, until they can meet the long trip requirements people will still not buy them even if there are all the chargers in the world available.

Let's say that range doesn't get up the fabled 300 miles anytime soon (if it did the whole paradigm would change).

I think the above is too simplistic. IMO what is more important after taking out the cost of the vehicle and tax and maintenance on the vehicle (which are starting to even out overall)

- The number of chargers available
x
- The speed of charging
x
- The fuel cost differential between Electric vs ICE


If you had sufficient chargers every 20-30 Kms (or at few major service points on motorways) along with rapid charging of 30 mins- 1 hour and a fuel cost differential of 1/10th of ICE...I think the whole equation changes. People WILL wait a bit longer if they can save a LOT of money. Not only that, they do not need to own a second car, thereby saving huge money on purchase, tax and maintenance, all this for the odd small inconvenience (or none at all according to your personal preference).

It comes down to money saving in the end for a huge proportion of people.
Most people are only doing long trips every few weeks or so..so they can put up with the slightly longer wait at those times (which is not much inconvenience if you can eat/drink something and stretch your legs) for the very considerable savings involved. For city run around an electric car is pretty much perfect if you can charge at home.

Ireland has mild weather, with a rather compact size and many towns available, it seems to be a pretty good place to own such a car compared to places with more extreme weather and long distances between destinations.

bk

MYOB wrote: »

So we've been told since 1990.

And in fairness battery tech has improved immensely since the 80's - 90's

Electric Vehicles have much greater range today then they have ever had and they are doing so in much heavier vehicles then ever.

Back in the 80's and 90's you had electric vehicles, but they were often almost milk carts, very light compared to regular cars.

Today, Nissan Leaf, Tesla S, etc. all weigh the same and are made on the same chasis and materials as ICE cars in the same class. No crappy light materials, all the same safety features, entertainment features, comfort features of a regular car and they manage to do far greater distances then the cars of the 90's

Hell there are even battery operated SUV's coming now!!!

Battery tech has come on in leaps and bounds and it will continue to do so. The biggest breakthrough that is happening now, is that these batteries are now being built at an industrial scale, with millions being built per year, rather then a small few being hand built in a lab.

This is vitally important as this will drive down the cost of such batteries.

Stonewolf wrote: »

Range anxiety will continue to be an issue until your car can manage 4 occupants plus weekend luggage for 3.5 hours at 120km/hr on a 30m fast-charge.

For feck sake and how often do people make such a journey, once a year?

Hell 3.5 hours is far longer then the typical longest journey in Ireland, 2.5 hours is Dublin to any city in Ireland.

Here are some facts from the US, a country much larger then Ireland and more car dependent.

- Average distance driven daily: 30 miles
- Average distance of a single trip: 7 miles
- 98% of drivers never drive more then 60 miles

If you read the blog above, you will find that today the guy has driven Cork to Dublin, with one passenger in a Nissan Leaf and needing just one 30 minute supercharge along the way.

Even if you have to stop twice for your 3.5 hour journey. That is hardly a hardship once a year, in return for the massive cost savings you will make over petrol the rest of the year.

And anyway if you are only making this sort of trip once or twice a year, why not just rent a diesel car for the day? In the US Nissan include 10 days free car rentals in the cost of buying a leaf for just this reason.

Finally if you are regularly making such a trip, then buy a electric hybrid instead, which includes a petrol engine.

I think the range anxiety is purely a psychological thing. People think they drive much further then they do and they think they do the whole 4 adults in a car for 3 hours thing far more frequently then they actually do. The reality is most people drive relatively short distances every day and usually on their own.

Again, Ireland is almost perfectly suited to electric vehicles:

- Small Island, with no real long distance journeys, all are really medium distance.
- Vast majority of journeys are between Dublin and the other cities, max distance is 252km (Dublin to Cork).
- Lots of towns along the main routes where you could recharge.
- Very mild climate
- Mostly flat.

Really you almost couldn't find a country better suited to EV's.

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

For feck sake and how often do people make such a journey, once a year?

Every 2/3 weeks for a lot of people I know that live in Dublin and have family in Cork, Kerry etc.

bk

antoobrien wrote: »

Every 2/3 weeks for a lot of people I know that live in Dublin and have family in Cork, Kerry etc.

I'm from Cork and live in Dublin.

As pointed out, in the blog above, the current Nissan Leaf can do Dublin to Cork easily with just one 30 minute supercharge already. So it is already perfectly feasible today, with little or no extra effort.

And again, this completely ignores plug-in hybrid/petrol cars like to new Prius and Ford Focus going on sale this year.

They have a small battery capable of going 20 to 30 miles on a single charge (enough for the typical daily commute) and then have an additional petrol tank and engine for longer distance. So zero issues and zero range anxiety.

maninasia

Plug-in hybrids are a great medium term solution, especially while waiting for infrastructure build up and battery cost to come down. Hybrids will help to perform this function, by driving battery sales, improving reliability, demonstrating investment potential and lowering cost of production through the whole supply chain. The hybrids will gradually grow in electric only range due to consumer preference for fuel savings and competition.

It's predicted that by 2025 battery cost will be less than 1/3rd of current pricing. Now if that's the case a simple calculation would suggest that range could be increased by 1/2 and the price of cars could still be significantly cheaper than the Nissan Leaf. At this stage hybrids would be an uneconomical option as range anxiety would no longer be a worry for the vast majority of users

It's the industrial build-up and economies of scale that often changes the paradigm of a given technology. To give an idea of how this applies look at the situation for the solar panel industry. Solar power per KWH has literally halved within 3 years, although the industry has suffered a large supply glut it's in-feasible to see prices go up from here. Instead I predict they will steadily go down but at a slightly reduced rate compared to the last three years. It has been predicted for years that other technologies would supersede PV silicon cell technology due to efficiency concerns, instead what is more important is reliability and industrial scale cost reduction. I believe the same phenomenon is at work with Li-ion batteries and they will still be the work horse for the next couple of decades.

http://www.economist.com/blogs/graphicdetail/2012/12/daily-chart-19

If car manufacturers are smart they will offer some type of warranty or trade-in deal for the batteries. They should do this because the cost of batteries in the future is much cheaper than the cost of batteries now, it will help them to get business now and also get repeat business in future.

foggy_lad

Are any of these battery cars the size of a family car(comfortable on longer journeys for two adults and three children)? Are they any use when towing a trailer or with a roof box?

maninasia

Hybrids would be a good solution there, depends on cost doesn't it.

bk

foggy_lad wrote: »

Are any of these battery cars the size of a family car(comfortable on longer journeys for two adults and three children)? Are they any use when towing a trailer or with a roof box?

Yes they are, take a look at the Nissan Leaf, it is a five door hatchback, exactly the same size as other typical 5 door hatchbacks like the Ford Focus:

http://www.nissan.ie/vehicles/leaf/

The Ford Focus Electric, is a fully electric car that is the same size as the Ford Focus:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Focus_Electric

The Ford C-Max is a plug-in hybrid 5 to 7 seat Multiple Passenger Vehicle:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_C-Max

The Ford Fusion Energei, a plug-in hybrid mid-size sedan (exactly the same as the existing Ford Fusions):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ford_Fusion_Energi#Ford_Fusion_Energi

The Tesla S is a 4 seat fastback, the same size as equivalent BMW's and Mercs:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tesla_Model_S

In fact fully electric vehicles typically have more storage space then petrol cars as they have no big petrol engine or petrol tank. For instance the Tesla S as luggage space in both the back and the "engine" bay and actually has more space then many MPVs:

http://ww4.hdnux.com/photos/14/13/41/3192927/3/628x471.jpg

Yes, they can also tow trailers and roof boxes.

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

I'm from Cork and live in Dublin.

As pointed out, in the blog above, the current Nissan Leaf can do Dublin to Cork easily with just one 30 minute supercharge already. So it is already perfectly feasible today, with little or no extra effort.

Yeah the blog is light on details such as speeds and load (incl. electrical load), how long is spent in eco mode vs driving normally etc. The interesting thing I found is how detrimental hills are to the range.

I'd be very interested to see the effect of having two/three whiney brats in the back would have on the ability to charge the car for 20 mins. I can hear the converstaion my brother would have with his 10 year old:
Daddy why are we stopped?
To charge the battery.
Go back to petrol, it's quicker and I don't have to stop here every time we see grandad.

It also makes it clear that unless the ecar is free, it's still far more expensive than petrol to own (unless you have the cost in cash handy) and will be until petrol/diesel goes above €3.5/l.

maninasia

Do people not stop to go for a piss and eat and drink something these days in Ireland?
Surely they'll build motorway service stations like the REST OF THE WORLD someday . I should have a conversation with my son someday, 'Daddy, why aren't there any service stations on the motorway, I'm bursting!'
I'd guess people can put up with 20-30 min stops when the fuel is almost free.

bk

antoobrien wrote: »

It also makes it clear that unless the ecar is free, it's still far more expensive than petrol to own (unless you have the cost in cash handy) and will be until petrol/diesel goes above €3.5/l.

That point is arguable. I think it is certainly worth discussing.

According to the blog he is saving about €600 for every 7,000 KM.

Now of course an electric car is about €5000 or €6000 more expensive then an equivalent petrol car to buy.

After 80,000km you will save €6,600 over petrol at todays prices, so you break even then and you are saving money after that. I do admit however that not everyone will have an extra €5000 up front.

The big unknown is the cost of the battery. The battery will typically have to be replaced after 10 years. Now the cost of the battery today is about €10,000.

However it is expected that the cost of these batteries will drop to 1/3 in 10 years. So you are looking at a cost of about €4000, but then the battery isn't useless, it will be reused and recycled so you might get some money for it, maybe €1000 or so.

Even at the €4000 price, you are looking at it paying back after just 50,000km

So the break even point is about 130,000 km, but this ignores two important points:

1) Petrol prices don't continue to increase over the next 10 years. I think we all know the reality of that.

2) ICE cars have much higher maintenance costs. You have to change spark plugs, etc. The Nissan Leaf only needs a full service every 300,000 km versus 100,000 km for an ICE car. A study done in the US, found that it costs $1,500 a year more to maintain an ICE car then an EV.

So after 10 years you will have saved about €10,000 in maintenance costs, or more then double the likely cost of replacing the battery 10 years from now.

Even now, it is looking like an EV could work out being a significant money saver.

Certainly 10 years from now, when the batteries are 1/3 of the price and petrol probably even more expensive, it will likely be a no brainer.

loyatemu

bk wrote: »

So after 10 years you will have saved about €10,000 in maintenance costs, or more then double the likely cost of replacing the battery 10 years from now.

really?! - who spends €1000 a year on maintaining their engine. Other maintenance costs such as tyres, shocks, electrics etc will be the same so you're talking about savings on the engine alone - that figure is nonsense.

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

So after 10 years you will have saved about €10,000 in maintenance costs, or more then double the likely cost of replacing the battery 10 years from now.

Seriously bk how many people do you know that keep a car for 10 years? Gambling that they'll be popular enough in 10 years in order to take out the mini mortgage required to get one is about as stupid as taking at face value that house prices were ever only going up despite evidence to the contrary from out past.

I'm on my first car right now (8yo) and I have a choice of a trade-in or run it into the ground, but I doubt I'll have it 10 years (personally I'm hoping for another scrappage scheme in the next 3 years, but that's about as likely as seeing income taxes go down). Even with those figures, EVs are still far too expensive for me to take them seriously as an option - ignoring the unacceptable 30 minute break required for charging.

loyatemu wrote: »

really?! - who spends €1000 a year on maintaining their engine. Other maintenance costs such as tyres, shocks, electrics etc will be the same so you're talking about savings on the engine alone - that figure is nonsense.

Indeed - I've had my car for 5 years now and I've only spent about 1,500-2,000 (breaks & tyres replaced once) on maintenance, including servicing. But then the blog refers to a diesel, which is more expensive.

maninasia

EVs are still far too expensive for me to take them seriously as an option - ignoring the unacceptable 30 minute break required for charging.

The first bit I can understand, the second part is simply not true.

Just look at Ryanair, Europe's biggest airline. They can be a pain in the arse but consumers love to fly on Ryanair because they get you where you need to go reliably and at a generally cheap price.
Don't underestimate the ability to change consumers behaviour. Besides 30 mins charging is perfectly acceptable if only doing it mid journey every now and then or if doing it while at work. In reality city and suburban commuter should not have to charge during the day.

bk

Well if you only keep it for ten years, then even better, you don't have to worry about the battery replacement cost, just scrap it and buy a new one.

Then the only cost you have is the €5,000 extra over the price of an ICE car. As I mentioned, you have to drive just 80,000km to break even. After that you will thus be saving €600 per 7,000km at todays oil prices.

antoobrien

maninasia wrote: »

The first bit I can understand, the second part is simply not true.

Just look at Ryanair, Europe's biggest airline. They can be a pain in the arse but consumers love to fly on Ryanair because they get you where you need to go reliably and at a generally cheap price.
Don't underestimate the ability to change consumers behaviour. Besides 30 mins charging is perfectly acceptable if only doing it mid journey every now and then or if doing it while at work.

Not in the middle of a trip it's not, stop with the apples and oranges. It can't change a behviour if there's no room to change it. You're making the silly assumption that all trips are within the range a 100% charge - they're not. Stopping for 30m or more is not acceptable.

I've also finally found some sped references in the blog. The poster refers to doing doing 85km/h tops on a motorway (borderline dangerously slow for a motorway imo) and only goes higher when trailing trucks (that is dodgy driving behaviour as to get a "tow" you need to be closer to the truck than the safe braking distance).

So if I was to attempt, what was until recently a regular, 220km trip between Galway & Dublin (door to door a trip I do in less than 2h) the ecar would cost me an extra 1-1.5 hours of my time - assuming the fast charge points were available and I didn't have to queue.

maninasia

Stopping in the middle of a long trip for 30 mins is unacceptable? How so? Especially if the fuel is almost free?
Could you not see a scenario where service stations and even individual food & beverage outlets place superchargers outside their premises to attract customers to charge while they eat or relax?

As I said already consumers are very quick to change behaviour due to cost/benefit ratios.

Besides for somebody who is doing regular long commutes I wouldn't recommend an EV just yet. But for most people this is simply not the case and they can easily put up with some stops during the infrequent long journeys (as long as there is sufficient charging infrastructure available, which shouldn't be too difficult).

antoobrien

bk wrote: »

Then the only cost you have is the €5,000 extra over the price of an ICE car. As I mentioned, you have to drive just 80,000km to break even. After that you will thus be saving €600 per 7,000km at todays oil prices.

Not true - the Leaf is 25,595 - including about 10,000 in grants and VRT waivers so the price is misleadingly low- the note (rough equivalent 1.4l) is 17,595 so there's an 8k (or 18k when those incentives run out, they won't last forver) differential to be made up.

beazee

antoobrien wrote: »

So if I was to attempt, what was until recently a regular, 220km trip between Galway & Dublin (door to door a trip I do in less than 2h) the ecar would cost me an extra 1-1.5 hours of my time - assuming the fast charge points were available and I didn't have to queue.

Lets assume you're earning €15 p.h. and drive 47mpg petrol car:

Galway - Dublin, 220km, 2hrs, petrol
€30 time + €22 fuel = €52 total

Galway - Dublin, 220km, 3hrs, EV
€45 time + €0 fuel = €45 total

foggy_lad

maninasia wrote: »

Do people not stop to go for a piss and eat and drink something these days in Ireland?
Surely they'll build motorway service stations like the REST OF THE WORLD someday . I should have a conversation with my son someday, 'Daddy, why aren't there any service stations on the motorway, I'm bursting!'
I'd guess people can put up with 20-30 min stops when the fuel is almost free.

How much does it cost for a normal family of 5-6 to stop at motorway services for about 40 minutes when the cost of food and drinks is added up? this doesn't happen with normal cars when you can fill the tank and travel for hundreds more miles before a refuelling stop.

antoobrien

beazee wrote: »

Lets assume you're earning €15 p.h. and drive 47mpg petrol car:

Galway - Dublin, 220km, 2hrs, petrol
€30 time + €22 fuel = €52 total

Galway - Dublin, 220km, 3hrs, EV
€45 time + €0 fuel = €45 total

My hourly rate works out at about €18 and you're not comparing using the right costs or times.

Calculated time @ 80km/h~3h (ev)
Calculated time @ 120km/h~2h (ice)
Extra time is to allow for traffic getting out of built up areas & lower speed limits than the target speeds.

Costs:
ICE: time 36 (driving) + 0 (refuelling) + 26.4 (fuel)*=52.4
EV: Time 54 (driving) + 9 (30 mins charging) + 2.57 (electricity)**=65.57

* Fuel cost is based on 12c/km, 18 months average fuel cost from fuelio app.
** Blog states that 400.9km cost €4.67

I wonder what would happen if the trip was driven at 120km/h, would it require two charges? It'd certainly raise the cost of the "free" fuel.

maninasia

foggy_lad wrote: »

How much does it cost for a normal family of 5-6 to stop at motorway services for about 40 minutes when the cost of food and drinks is added up? this doesn't happen with normal cars when you can fill the tank and travel for hundreds more miles before a refuelling stop.

It doesn't happen, so why do they have motorway service stations every 40 km where I live?
People never stopped before in the midlands of Ireland?

I agree it's not ideal for some, but it's also not a big deal for many. As I stated earlier in this thread the next generation of EVs should comfortably make 200-300 km per charge and that will make a lot of difference.

beazee

antoobrien wrote: »

My hourly rate works out at about €18

After tax? Take home should be taken into calculations.

Calculated time @ 80km/h~3h (ev)

Still don't know where did you take 80km/h from.
95-100 km/h would be comfortable time- and rangewise.
Which shortens driving time to 2.5hrs, 3hrs incl. charging

ICE: time 36 (driving) + 0 (refuelling) + 26.4 (fuel)*=52.4
EV: Time 54 (driving+charging) =54

So far FCP (fast charge points) are free of charge. So no fuelling charges.

foggy_lad

beazee wrote: »

So far FCP (fast charge points) are free of charge. So no fuelling charges.

Any of the chargers i have seen at railway stations and bus stations etc require payment, How many of these fast charge points are currently available and where are they?

antoobrien

beazee wrote: »

After tax? Take home should be taken into calculations.

Irrelevant - I earn the 18 and pay tax on it. It's an hour I could be spending earning another 18.

beazee wrote: »

Still don't know where did you take 80km/h from.

It's in the blog. I took the mid point between the 85 & 75 speeds the writer claimed.

I always drive on the motorway in fifth gear keeping the revs at 20000 (20x), turns out this is between 80-85kph (about 50mph)

Today I was a little tired heading to work so instead of the usual 85kph on the cruise control, I set it to 75kph and headed off.

What made going slower quicker was that with the not having to stop and with keeping the steady pace I arrived in work 15-20 mins earlier than normal. So that was a nice surprise to start the new year, I wonder would it get better again if done in Eco mode?

beazee wrote: »

So far FCP (fast charge points) are free of charge. So no fuelling charges.

I wasn't aware of that, but that only makes the last 60km free not the whole trip. If we want to go the whole way on FCPs that will take 2/3 on the road charges, which will increase the charge time to at least one hour. Leaving aside that this is bad for the battery, it's a non-saving.

EV driving 54 + 18 (charging for 1h) = 72

Sesshoumaru

We've had our Leaf since April 2011. We're now at 41,000 kilometers on the clock. It's our only car, which my wife uses for her daily commuting and it's obviously the family car at the weekend. We've got 3 kids as well, no issue fitting in 3 kids, buggy etc. We're both extremely happy with the car, no regrets, no battery degradation yet. We just really love our Leaf and not having to fill up on expensive petrol or diesel.

We're based in the Dublin area and have used the Leaf on slightly longer journeys to Cork, Galway and Northern Ireland. The Cork trip was a weekend away with the whole family and the hotel we stayed in had a charging point at the entrance, which they reserved for us. The FCP in Cashel is great for kids as it has toilets, seating area, indoor play area, hot food and drink etc. There was no drama stopping there for a charge.



The car itself is really nice to drive, has decent power (110bhp) and is very well equipped:

http://www.euroncap.com/results/nissan/leaf/2012/432.aspx
7" touch screen computer for controlling everything from sat-nav to bluetooth and multimedia.
Telematics service built-in and free of charge. Can update itself online and even do neat stuff like read RSS feeds to you.
ESP and ABS are standard
Reversing camera is linked to 7" touch screen, put her in reverse and you have reverse camera with guide lines.
Everything from mirrors to windows and folding mirrors are electric.
Seats are extremely comfy and are well made (another leaf owner told me his son puked up in the car and it left no stain nor did fluids sink in - water repellent).
Wipers and and lights are all automatic and controlled by light/rain sensor
All lights that can legally be LED are LED and front light are auto levelling
Rear glass is tinted
Full automatic climate control
keyless entry and push start button
The cars bluetooth can pair with several different phones for calling or multimedia.
Climate and charging can be controlled remotely from PC or Android/iPhone
Electric parking brake
Cruise control and speed limiter

My favourite feature is the remotely activated climate control

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Just thought some people mind find this interesting. The climate control in my Nissan Leaf comes on via a schedule or using the Leaf app on my smart phone. This morning I turned it on via the smartphone app and took a picture of the car. About 20 minutes later I took another picture. I was just curious would preheating shift the snow!





It would have been nice to take the Leaf to work this morning, but unfortunately the wife needs it. I only use it in the morning for the school run, before coming back and getting on the Piaggio for my morning commute... which kept cutting out this morning

Being an EV it is very quiet, has a low centre of gravity and excellent weight distribution. To put another way, I'm saying it has a very good level of refinement. If you were to compare it to a regular car powered by petrol or diesel, IMO a 5dr Golf Bluemotion would be a fair comparison, although the Golf would have less features as standard.

http://www.carzone.ie/new-cars/volkswagen/GOLF/hatchback

Just some of my thoughts based on posts I skimmed through in the last few pages So based on the fact that I think my Leaf is a fantastic car, I think investing in a charging infrastructure is an excellent idea.

I think I saw some post mentioning batteries costing a lot to replace

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/04/17/us-ev-battery-idUSBRE83G0EX20120417

LONDON | Tue Apr 17, 2012 5:30am EDT
(Reuters) - The average price of an electric vehicle-grade battery fell 14 percent year-on-year to $689 per kilowatt hour in the first quarter as manufacturing capacity outstripped demand, a report by Bloomberg New Energy Finance said on Tuesday.

http://www.caradvice.com.au/185266/lithium-ion-battery-price-dlithium-ion-battery-price-drop-to-make-hybrids-evs-cheaperrop-will-make-hybrids-evs-much-cheaper/

Hybrid and electric vehicles are set to become considerably cheaper in the coming years with the price of automotive lithium-ion batteries tipped to drop two-thirds by 2020.

US-based business analyst McKinsey believes the price of lithium-ion batteries will fall from their current level of US$500-US$600 ($474-$568) per kilowatt hour (kWh) to US$200 ($189) per kWh by 2020, before dipping even further to approximately US$160 ($152) per kWh by 2025.

What has never been done before and is happening now, is that these packs are being mass produced in huge (and increasing) quantities. As pointed out above, this is reducing the cost of these packs significantly every year. What's the point of discussing the cost of replacing a pack or part of a pack based on today's prices? Closely related to another point I want to raise is that the battery is still valuable and useful after the car phase of its life. This video is a recent interview with Nissan CEO Carlos Ghosn. He discusses reducing the cost of the battery packs EV's use and how Nissan are developing the second life uses of those battery packs.

If in 10 years time you think 90% or 80% capacity isn't enough, you could buy a new pack (at a much reduced cost) and use the old pack for powering your home during the day on cheaper night rate electricity or with smart metering earning you money as you feed renewable electricity back to the grid that your battery pack charged up on overnight. Nothing far fetched about this technology, it already exists and based on discussions with the ESB I know they are also looking at implementing it.

http://www.engadget.com/2012/06/18/nissan-leaf-charger-will-start-powering-homes-in-july/

On top of trundling you around town, the EV's battery will supply 6kWh of juice to your house, keeping it powered for up to two days. It also features an advanced charger, which can juice the Leaf to 80% capacity in only four hours, compared to the eight usually required to get to that level. It'll be sold through Nissan dealers and will run 480,000 yen ($6,000)

Sesshoumaru

foggy_lad wrote: »

Any of the chargers i have seen at railway stations and bus stations etc require payment, How many of these fast charge points are currently available and where are they?

http://www.esb.ie/electric-cars/electric-car-charging/electric-car-charge-point-map.jsp

30 fast charge points currently operational with a lot more planned for this year. Nissan have provided funding themselves for an etra 500 FCP's across Europe, a good few of those will be going into Ireland & Northern Ireland.

Sesshoumaru

antoobrien wrote: »

I wasn't aware of that, but that only makes the last 60km free not the whole trip. If we want to go the whole way on FCPs that will take 2/3 on the road charges, which will increase the charge time to at least one hour. Leaving aside that this is bad for the battery, it's a non-saving.

EV driving 54 + 18 (charging for 1h) = 72

Fast Charging is not bad for the battery, nor is multiple fast charging per day.

http://www.torquenews.com/1075/nissan-leaf-webchat-answers-questions-electric-car-fast-charging-and-more

Nissan's Mark Perry conducted a webchat today answering questions about the Nissan LEAF, electric car fast charging standards, fast charging networks, Nissans low price CHADEMO station, and more.

Mark Perry: "Absolutely! The LEAF is capable of quick charging multiple times per day. Our battery management systems always protects the battery from risk. Charging rates will slow down if for some reason temperatures get out of the 'normal' range."

Mark Perry: "We updated the owners manual. Multiple quick charges are ok. The BMS protects the battery in all cases. If temperatures get outside normal range the charging rates simply slow down." What he's saying is the potential for harm is if the battery pack temperature rises too high during fast charge. It's not the act of fast charging that can cause damage, but the temperature increases.

Irish owners were also given a new manual which states fast charging multiple times day is perfectly fine.

L1011

maninasia wrote: »

Stopping in the middle of a long trip for 30 mins is unacceptable?

Its entirely unacceptable unless you value your time at practically nothing.

If you have the cash to afford an EV, you almost certainly have more money than time to begin with.

bk

MYOB wrote: »

Its entirely unacceptable unless you value your time at practically nothing.

If you regularly take long distance trips, then a plug-in hybrid with a petrol engine is the better option for you.

Why do you keep ignoring this point?

For most people, who might take such long journey trips two or three times a year, then stopping for 30 minutes to take a toilet break and grab some food is hardly unacceptable.

L1011

bk wrote: »

If you regularly take long distance trips, then a plug-in hybrid with a petrol engine is the better option for you.

Why do you keep ignoring this point?

For most people, who might take such long journey trips two or three times a year, then stopping for 30 minutes to take a toilet break and grab some food is hardly unacceptable.

Going on plug-in hybrid costs, a pure diesel is better for me - and I'm fairly sure it's going to stay so for quite some time.

I'm not ignoring anything. You, however, brush the constant and repeated safety issue of lithium batteries under the carpet every time it comes up.

Stonewolf

Wow, this thread's been active ...

It's my experience that people do take longer trips at least once a month. My own car experience is that I get the train to work so my car is all longer trips but I accept that I'm outside the norms as I also don't have children (and never intend to either, humbug). I do however have friends and we carpool when travelling so long trips means a loaded car.

What I can tell you is that selling people range as being "enough to get you there" based on 80-90km/hr is cynical. Efficiency is not most peoples primary concern on long trips unless they're getting paid for it, their priorities are safety and making good time, efficiency comes after that (I could do Dub-Cork at 9.5l/100k but for 10.5 I get there significantly faster with no appreciable reduction in safety).

As for the whole stopping on the way argument, I'm from Donegal originally, I know all about stopping half way. In the car or on the bike it takes 3.5-4 hours because the roads aren't great, that's a point where you need to make a choice, if your car couldn't manage it you'd stop and not feel overly cheated, I stop on the bike because this is Ireland and it's bloody freezing and wet all year 'round, in the car I just get the journey over with and done. There are other examples of journeys in Ireland where stopping half way is acceptable, however, Dublin to anywhere on a motorway in this country would not be acceptable to stop. If I were looking to carpool to Cork and you said you'd be doing 85km/hr and stopping for a bite half way I'd find someone else.

Ireland is either small enough to be perfect for electrics or large enough to stop half way, it can't be both.

Merch

OssianSmyth wrote: »

hence the RCD

The RCD surely would protect any person against electrocution,
I was wondering what/if any damage would occur to the battery.

bk wrote: »

The billing system is already handled with the current chargers.

You are issued with an RFID card by ESB ecars, which you use to unlock the charging ports. The charging cable and ports are designed in such a way that they can't be pulled out, you have to use your RFID card to remove the cable.

To answer Wattys concerns:

1) The ESB will install a charging point in an apartment block car park if the management company give permission (they normally would, it increases the value of a development, no real reason to turn it down).

2) The chargers can be the versions that use the RFID cards, so you are charged for your actual usage.

3) The versions that use the RFID cards also lock the cable in, so they can't be removed by other people.

4) Charge points are usually placed in such a way that the car parks right up next to the charging point, so that people wouldn't be walking between them and risking a trip.

5) Vandalism is a risk, just like it is with anything. Your charging gear is as likely to be vandalised as anyones car is likely to be vandalised (keyed, slashed tires, etc.).

However I think people are less likely to vandalise electrical gear due to the risk (even if it is untrue) of being electrocuted.

Vandalism to your car and charging cable is covered by your insurance. The charger is covered by ESB ecars (and I assume their insurance company).

People already park in disabled spaces/parent child space, I can see ICE drivers parking in the allocated spaces, either maliciously or obliviously.

Apologies if this has been mentioned, lot of replies and information since I looked last.
but
Who supplies the car purchaser with their home charge point? Is eg in the case of the leaf, Nissan? is that included in the cost of the car.

What about feeding back power into the home? at night? that seems pointless as the rate is lower, or more to the point there is less demand on the grid at that time, so its not as much of a requirement, feeding into the grid would surely be better done during the day when the car is parked at say, a place of employment.

Is the ability to feed back into the grid included in the charger?

maninasia wrote: »

Do people not stop to go for a piss and eat and drink something these days in Ireland?
Surely they'll build motorway service stations like the REST OF THE WORLD someday . I should have a conversation with my son someday, 'Daddy, why aren't there any service stations on the motorway, I'm bursting!'
I'd guess people can put up with 20-30 min stops when the fuel is almost free.

I go before I leave, put the foot down and dont stop if I can help it, but I dont make many long journeys anymore, an EV would suit the mileage I cover, if it weren't for the initial outlay,
sorry what? its free??

maninasia

Merch wrote: »

The RCD surely would protect any person against electrocution,
I was wondering what/if any damage would occur to the battery.



People already park in disabled spaces/parent child space, I can see ICE drivers parking in the allocated spaces, either maliciously or obliviously.

Apologies if this has been mentioned, lot of replies and information since I looked last.
but
Who supplies the car purchaser with their home charge point? Is eg in the case of the leaf, Nissan? is that included in the cost of the car.

What about feeding back power into the home? at night? that seems pointless as the rate is lower, or more to the point there is less demand on the grid at that time, so its not as much of a requirement, feeding into the grid would surely be better done during the day when the car is parked at say, a place of employment.

Is the ability to feed back into the grid included in the charger?



I go before I leave, put the foot down and dont stop if I can help it, but I dont make many long journeys anymore, an EV would suit the mileage I cover, if it weren't for the initial outlay,
sorry what? its free??

I recommend people to read the blog of the Leaf driver to get an idea of the current infrastructure issues and issues with cabling, its all there.

Yeah except for the initial outlay, the fuel is practically free. This is true so if you had an EV and were mostly a city driver with odd long trips I don't see the problem of charging every now and then mid way. Small inconvenience if you aren't doing it often. People rent cars for trips and that's also an inconvenience that costs a lot more in terms of rental and fuel and time. See what I'm driving at here? It depends on your lifestyle and business needs.

Its already been said MANY times on here (and getting repetitive) that EVs are not ideal for commuters who often drive long distances. That will change in a few years as battery costs reduce and petrol/diesel continues it's inexorable march upwards.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

Its entirely unacceptable unless you value your time at practically nothing.

If you have the cash to afford an EV, you almost certainly have more money than time to begin with.

Who are you speaking on behalf of when you say "Its entirely unacceptable" ?

A lot of people (including me) did not have "cash" to buy our EV's, we got loans. The cost of which we balance against reduced daily running costs, reduced yearly motortax (€120 per year) and reduced maintenance. You can't simply brush total cost of car ownership under the rug. Purchasing a 25,000 euro Nissan Leaf has a lower total cost of ownership compared to a similar 25,000 euro ICE car.

We can discuss battery degradation costs when I actually experience it or battery/cell replacement costs in 5 to 10 years when there is actually a remote chance of me wanting to do that.

bk

MYOB wrote: »

Going on plug-in hybrid costs, a pure diesel is better for me - and I'm fairly sure it's going to stay so for quite some time.

That is fair enough, I've never said that EV's are suitable for everyone.

I honestly believe that EV's are suitable for 80% of people in Ireland. Vast majority people drive less then 30km per day, with the odd long distance journey every few months.

The Plug-in Hybrids are suited to about 18% of people. People who mostly do the usual daily commute, but might go long distance once every week or two.

The remaining 2% would be best with a good diesel. These are people who do more then 200km every day and often on different routes, for instance travelling salespeople, etc.

MYOB wrote: »

I'm not ignoring anything. You, however, brush the constant and repeated safety issue of lithium batteries under the carpet every time it comes up.

What safety issue? There hasn't been a single case of lithium battery fires in EV's. In fact lithium batteries are far safer then the literally gas explosion that happens in a typical petrol car every second, never mind the tank full of explosive fuel!!

4.legs.good

You are all missing a bigger problem, I would not be seen in a Nissan Leaf (or want to put my life at risk having the horrible near death experience of driving small sardine boxes before),
for the same price and yearly running cost one can buy a 10 year old german 4x4 sports car, that would also be more luxurious, comfortable and safer (and fun for that matter with 330HP v8 engine), thats even with high petrol costs and tax

The only interesting electric car is Tesla S but we wont be seeing any of those for years (if ever at this rate)

Anyone know when the BMW i range coming to Ireland?


Btw last ive been in US asking all my friends, they would rather buy the GT500 (600HP) than the Model S (which is impossible to buy anyways), not to mention petrol is much cheaper there and no draconian taxes. I would love to test drive the Model S but if I had to reach into my pocket there would go for the GT500

beazee

4.legs.good wrote: »

for the same (...) yearly running cost one can buy a 10 year old german 4x4 sports car (...) with 330HP v8 engine

What is the yearly running cost of V8 guzzler?
And are we still talking Ireland?

----
Well I found one matching:

2002 BMW 745i 4.4L V8 with 330HP
Motor Tax Per Year: €1809
Nah!

Sesshoumaru

4.legs.good wrote: »

You are all missing a bigger problem, I would not be seen in a Nissan Leaf (or want to put my life at risk having the horrible near death experience of driving small sardine boxes before),
for the same price and yearly running cost one can buy a 10 year old german 4x4 sports car, that would also be more luxurious, comfortable and safer (and fun for that matter with 330HP v8 engine), thats even with high petrol costs and tax

The only interesting electric car is Tesla S but we wont be seeing any of those for years (if ever at this rate)

Anyone know when the BMW i range coming to Ireland?


Btw last ive been in US asking all my friends, they would rather buy the GT500 (600HP) than the Model S (which is impossible to buy anyways), not to mention petrol is much cheaper there and no draconian taxes. I would love to test drive the Model S but if I had to reach into my pocket there would go for the GT500

Your post was funny Just dealing with the safety aspect

4.legs.good

beazee wrote: »

What is the yearly running cost of V8 guzzler?
And are we still talking Ireland?

4.4liter x5 jeep

Car: €8000 2nd hand

Tax: ~320 last I checked (commercial, rear seats gone) or ~1600 (or is it 1800 now?) if put rear seats back

Insurance: ~700 (the joys of being male)

Petrol: ~21mpg average, would be more if rode within speed limits and had lighter foot...

service costs: paid 200 in last year

Fun factor: priceless


but i am not kidding, having driven small cars and having had several near death experiences due to other drivers playing chicken on roads (or being asleep) i would want as much metal and airbags and height between me and any eejit not paying attention.

my life at the end of the day is sort of important, something thats hard to put a price on...

Sesshoumaru

4.legs.good wrote: »

4.4 x5 jeep

Car: €8000 2nd hand

Tax: ~320 last I checked (commercial, rear seats gone) or ~1600 (or is it 1800 now?) if put rear seats back

Insurance: ~700 (the joys of being male)

Petrol: ~21mpg average, would be more if rode within speed limits and had lighter foot...

Fun factor: priceless


but i am not kidding, having driven small cars and having had several near death experiences due to other drivers playing chicken on roads (or being asleep) i would want as much metal and airbags and height between me and any eejit not paying attention.

my life at the end of the day is sort of important, something thats hard to put a price on...

I ride a Ducati Monster for my daily commuting. Your most important defense against other drivers bad driving is to drive well yourself and use your brain. Good observation and thinking ahead are critical. You're only fooling yourself if you think you're automatically safe in your big cage

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

Who are you speaking on behalf of when you say "Its entirely unacceptable" ?

Those who value their time at more than the fractional savings. Which, I imagine, is virtually everyone.

If you consider your time to be worth a few quid an hour, that's your concern.

bk wrote: »

What safety issue? There hasn't been a single case of lithium battery fires in EV's. In fact lithium batteries are far safer then the literally gas explosion that happens in a typical petrol car every second, never mind the tank full of explosive fuel!!

There hasn't been a single fire? Really? Are you believing the spurious reasons given by the manufacturer to wave away the repeated Chevrolet ones then? That's just going off memory without even searching for more

Lithium batteries are not stable, and there has been nothing to date to fix that. It doesn't look likely coming either.

Sesshoumaru

MYOB wrote: »

Those who value their time at more than the fractional savings. Which, I imagine, is virtually everyone.

If you consider your time to be worth a few quid an hour, that's your concern.

So you "imagine" you are speaking for "virtually everyone". Interesting

bk

MYOB wrote: »

Those who value their time at more than the fractional savings. Which, I imagine, is virtually everyone.

1/5 the price of petrol is a fractional saving!!!!

And again, most people will just charge overnight and very rarely have to stop to do a supercharge. Actually if you think about it most people will actually save time. Much quicker and more convenient to just plug in every night at home then to have to take the time to drive to a garage, wait to pump fuel, line up to pay, etc.

Also I'd imagine many people would be happy to not have to deal with the dirtiness and smells of petrol or diesel.

As for the case of lithium batteries catching fire. Please point out a single case of a person dying or being seriously injured due to a fire with the lithium battery?

And are you seriously trying to tell be that petrol/diesel cars are safer in this regard?

You have to be kidding, petrol/diesel engines catch fire all the time. In fact my friends car caught fire just last week!

Is there a risk, perhaps yes, but much less then a petrol/diesel car.

L1011

Sesshoumaru wrote: »

So you "imagine" you are speaking for "virtually everyone". Interesting

I don't know many people who consider their time to be practically valueless. Do you?

bk wrote: »

1/5 the price of petrol is a fractional saving!!!!

Dearer vehicle. Dearer maintenance, even if we have people going "lalalala, I'll look at that in five years". Eventual end of subsidies and reduced tax if there's any increase in users, ditto being made pay for home charger installation, etc.

The savings are already fractional and could easily be nothing. Of course, I expect to hear the same line about future miracle battery technologies being trotted out now, as it has been for two decades.

bk wrote: »

As for the case of lithium batteries catching fire. Please point out a single case of a person dying or being seriously injured due to a fire with the lithium battery?

And are you seriously trying to tell be that petrol/diesel cars are safer in this regard?

You have to be kidding, petrol/diesel engines catch fire all the time. In fact my friends car caught fire just last week!

Is there a risk, perhaps yes, but much less then a petrol/diesel car.

There are how many electric cars in the world compared to petrol/diesel, exactly?

The risk is huge with lithium batteries and we're already seeing it with the minuscule amount out there.

Are you now moving away from the "no fires" position then?

bk

MYOB wrote: »

Are you now moving away from the "no fires" position then?

Is this what you are talking about?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2012/01/20/government-ends-probe-into-chevy-volt-fires/

You have to be kidding, basically a volt caught fire a few weeks after being tested by the safety administration with side impacts and forced roll overs.

Lets make this clear, they crashed this car around a lot on purpose and during the crash testing, it didn't catch fire. Instead it only caught fire a few weeks later!!

Any serious side impact roll over crash that you can walk away from and which causes no immediate fire is perfectly fine in my books. You wouldn't be so lucky in many petrol cars.

GM have satisfied that this won't happen again as they are adding extra steel around the battery.

There hasn't been a single case of this happening in the wild. Despite Nissan Leafs and Volts been in numerous crashes, not a single one has resulted in the battery bay being penetrated or catching fire.

The way you make it out, it sounds like they are so unstable, they just spontaneously combust as you drive along, this isn't the case at all.

The fact that you even bring up this extreme safety corner case says to me that you are simply dead set against EV's (perhaps your are a petrol head) and that you won't be convinced and are looking for any little excuse to pick at them.

This is clear from the fact that you keep ignoring the existence of plug-in hybrids and keep going on about how awful it is that you might have to stop to recharge for 30 minutes once in a blue moon!

L1011

bk wrote: »

Is this what you are talking about?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/joannmuller/2012/01/20/government-ends-probe-into-chevy-volt-fires/

There are more than just that one.

Wait until there's (if ever) a decent sized EV fleet and we'll see the lithium problems being obvious.

bk wrote: »

The fact that you even bring up this extreme safety corner case says to me that you are simply dead set against EV's (perhaps your are a petrol head) and that you won't be convinced and are looking for any little excuse to pick at them.

I'm dead set against a broke state and a very expensive electricity company pouring money on an unready technology for a few zealots.

Once EVs are unsubsidised in any way, shape or form I won't give a damn about them, but as of now, they're costing me money.

As goes it being a "corner case" - EVs are nothing more than this anyway. Hence there being so few reports of fires, because there's so few to go on fire.

bk wrote: »

I
This is clear from the fact that you keep ignoring the existence of plug-in hybrids and keep going on about how awful it is that you might have to stop to recharge for 30 minutes once in a blue moon!

I don't ignore plug in hybrids - I consider them completely useless for what they claim to be. Any decent diesel car is more efficient than them.

30 minutes is a LOT of time to be sitting doing nothing, whereas I can put 5 of those 30 minute stops in to my work vehicle in 4 minutes.