Post-accident etiquette

zynaps

Rode my recently acquired and fixed BSO MTB through town on the way to Rathmines for the second time yesterday morning around 11am.

I was coming down the bridge on the North Strand Road, when a white van overtook in the right hand lane and started to slow down as we approached a car nosing out of a small side road (Shamrock Terrace, I think). Just as the obstructing car looked ready to move, the van (about 2-3 metres ahead of me in the right hand lane, me in the left of course) indicated left.
This suggested to me that he wanted to shift into my lane, maybe to go around the back of the obstructing car which was about to move out. No problem, I was in a filter position anyway and there's enough room for him too, so I kept my course and speed (not very high, maybe 20km/h).
He continued to slow down as he shifted into my lane, almost directly alongside me (my front wheel was level with his rear wheels) now, but didn't stop - instead, he simply carried on as if crossing two lanes at once and started to make the tight left hand turn into that side road. By now, I was just behind his left wing mirror and realised he was going to knock me down, so I just braked and let it happen.

It was a pretty slow impact, since he noticed I was (still) there as I slid off his side and banged the mirror. I don't even remember hitting the ground - just seemed to flop off the bike, roll automatically into a standing position and pick the bike up off the floor.

The driver stopped halfway into the turn and ran around where we had a conversation (roughly) like this:

Van man: Listen, I had that fockin' indicator on for ages!
Me: So? I don't care whether your indicator was on or not. I was in the left lane, you cut across from the right lane and turned right on top of me, and you knocked me down.
V: At least, I thought I had my indicator on. Well I didn't see any cycle lane here (????). Anyway I can see we're both at fault.
M: We're not both at fault. You're at fault. I had right of way, you cut across me to make a turn from the wrong lane and pushed me off my bike.
V: Eh. Yeah. Ok, I was totally at fault there. I just got so defensive because I was a bit shocked. But you're alright aren't you?
M: Yeah I think I'm alright. Don't worry about it.

First I had assumed he was busy looking at the car in front and didn't check his side mirror/blindspot, but maybe he did see me and just assumed I would brake hard as soon as he started to move in my general direction And with some tacit assumption that I had no right of way (or rights on the road in general) since there was no cycle lane, or something.

Also, it bothers me that the first thing he said when getting out was not "are you ok?". If I was driving and knocked someone down, that'd be my first question no matter who was at fault!
So, is this the way crashes normally happen, and what do you guys do after the event? I felt like a bit of a moron, not even getting his details (didn't even glance at his registration plate) - I've reported people for dangerous driving before when nobody was hit/hurt, and he probably hasn't learned anything from this other than "I can drive carelessly, knock someone down and they'll just wave it off and cycle away" - what if he does it again and kills someone?

Beasty

If you search back, there have been a few similar incidents reported here. One of the recent threads can be found here

If you don't have his details, clearly there is little that can be done now, although clearly it's something to bear in mind in the future. Based on what you are saying, I presume you are uninjured (although confidence can clearly take a knock after an incident like this). If there are any injuries, the incident should be reported to the Gardai.

Most drivers do appear quite sensible and reasonable in such circumstances. I would certainly be more concerned about how you were, but I guess everyone is different, and this guy may have had other things on his mind (am I going to lose my job over this?, oh sh!t my insurance is out of date etc). At least he did ask eventually.

Very rarely is there any intent in these things. I think it unlikely he simply thought you would brake to let him cut across you. It's probably more about him completely misjudging the situation, and failing to see where you were (which clearly does not absolve him of any blame)

Maybe he will be more alert next time - who knows, but there's nothing you can do about it now, so I wouldn't let it bother me (unless I saw his van creeping up alongside me again!)

seamus

Yes, some drivers do think that as long as they're indicating and slightly in front of you before turning, then you're required to yield to them. I had a woman overtake me about 20m before a junction this morning and just go for it. At slow speed, that would work, but I was pushing about 35km/h. I was almost in the middle of the traffic lane with a high-vis backpack, she couldn't have missed me, she just decided that she had right of way to overtake me and turn across my path.

As Beasty says, "Maybe he will be more alert next time - who knows", at the very least it's a relatively minor incident (seemingly) and you will be better able to spot it before it happens next time. Unfortunately we can only make ourselves better at compensating for other people's mistakes, we can't make other people better at spotting us.

It's very easy to forget to do things after an accident because your brain is focussing on 2 things:
1. How is my bike?
2. Am I missing any body parts?

In general, no matter how minor the incident, take the vehicle's reg, the insurance details and the other driver's name. You will generally feel fine after any kind of incident, even if you're missing pieces of skin from your shins/elbows, it's only 20 minutes later when the adrenaline wears off that you start to feel pain. So never write off any incident as minor until you've had 24 hours to feel the effects.

Caroline_ie

I got hit by a taxi, it was his fault, he drove right into me in a roundabout. He was shocked, I was bruised and my wheels fecked, but he gave me cash to get a new pair of wheels the next day. I got lucky, not to have been hit, obviously, but that the cab stopped and realised he had made a huge mistake. I think I taught him a good lesson. A friend of mine got hit last monday and wasn't so lucky.

fenris

Just as well he didn't have his hazard lights on or even worse, was on his way to mass, then you would have been completely in the wrong!

abcdggs

I've been lucky enough not to have any serious run-ins with cars, but i'm pretty sure I'd be in the same position as you. Try brush it off at the time then afterward feel like a bit of a tawt for not making a bigger deal of it. hope the bike and yourself are ok.

@caroline- surely you reply should have been "what would jens do"

Harrybelafonte

This isn't just "cyclist" V "motorist", a lot of people think that indicating means you have to yield/give them right of way and they'll just pull out in front of you, have to slam on brakes and give usual gesture. Someone indicates I'll give them wide berth, err on side of caution.

blorg

Happened to me recently cycling out to a race. I'm in the cycle lane and a driver pulls in ahead of me to an entrance. I wasn't paying quite enough attention and so only saw him as he pulled across me. Braked hard to the point of ending up over the bars to bounce off the rear of his car but amazingly no injuries or bike damage; I guess I had scrubbed all my speed by that point and had the front wheel stopped.

His defence was "I indicated;" he clearly thought this made it all OK. I told him that indicating didn't confer right of way and he needs to check if there is anything in the cycle lane he is pulling across. He says he thought I was way back; I point out that racing bikes go quite fast, often faster than you might think. All very calm; he did apologise at the end and asked more than once if I was sure I was OK. I assured him I was fine and left it at that. I think he will be more careful in future.

If you weren't hurt and the bike wasn't damaged count yourself lucky and chalk it up to experience.

Bill2673

Question:

If the driver is at fault, and there are injuries and/or damage to the bike, should the incident always be reported to the gardai, regardless of whether the driver accepts responsibility at the scene?

Jawgap

[Touches wood] - I've not been knocked off my bike, but my advice would be that if a vehicle collides with you (I wouldn't use the word "accident") then you should as a minimum take their details and report it to the Guards unless you are unconscious.

loyatemu

tbh, if I was alongside the rear of a van or a truck and he was indicating to go left, i'd fall back slightly.

He may have been in the wrong but thats not much use to you if you're dead - van's have sh!te visibility, and that's before taking account of the higher proportion of jerks driving them.

Beasty

Bill2673 wrote: »

Question:

If the driver is at fault, and there are injuries and/or damage to the bike, should the incident always be reported to the gardai, regardless of whether the driver accepts responsibility at the scene?

Injuries yes, regardless of fault

Damage to bike - they will probably not be interested

Bill2673

I mean more specifically, should the gardai always be called to the scene.

Reason for mentioning is that a neighbour was knocked off his bike, the driver accepted responsibility, but then rebutted that when she saw the bill for bike repair - i.e. changed her mind on accepting responsibility. Gardai said there was nothing they could do as it was his word against hers. So, therefore in my view either make sure you have witnesses or call the gardai immediately.

serendip

I had the opposite problem recently.

A car passed me indicating left. My usual tactic in this situation is to pull out and pass the car on the right-hand side, which I proceeded to do. However, the driver in this case obviously expected me to appear on her left. When she looked for me there (to her credit, but she should really have waited in the first place) and I wasn't to be seen, she slammed on the breaks ... and I had to take emergency action (swerve) to avoid hitting the back of her.

No problem, in the end. But I was surprised (and worried) by the extent to which I was trusting drivers to do the obvious thing. I expected her just to proceed into her turn. And got caught out when she didn't.

blorg

Bill2673 wrote: »

Question:

If the driver is at fault, and there are injuries and/or damage to the bike, should the incident always be reported to the gardai, regardless of whether the driver accepts responsibility at the scene?

If there are injuries it is a legal requirement that you notify the Gardaí, yes, absolutely.

ROTR wrote:

f you or another person are injured and there is no Garda at the scene, the accident must be reported to the nearest Garda station.

If the accident damages only property and there is a Garda in the immediate vicinity you must report it to the Garda. If there is no Garda available you must provide this information to the owner or the person in charge of the property. If, for any reason, neither a Garda nor the owner is immediately available you must give all relevant information at a Garda station as soon a reasonable possible.

Mr. Presentable

loyatemu wrote: »

tbh, if I was alongside the rear of a van or a truck and he was indicating to go left, i'd fall back slightly.

He may have been in the wrong but thats not much use to you if you're dead - van's have sh!te visibility, and that's before taking account of the higher proportion of jerks driving them.

This is it, basically. You have right of way but shouldn't force it - if there's a coming together the cyclist will come off worst. Drive defensively, be safe.

Captain Havoc

I generally stay behind anyone with a left indicator but to turn left from a right hand lane is just silly. What I think anyone who has a pang should do is take a photo with your phone of the reg. When I was knocked over last year, I got up, brushed myself down and said I was grand. When I got home I realised the silly bint had cost me a few quid in (winter) clothing, which I should have pursued.

kona

You are better off moving out of the bus lane into the traffic at that section, because of the bus stop just over the hill, then the odd lighting config at 5 lamps, someday somebody will be creased by a car turning left at that filter.

For that reason I spend that 400m in the traffic lane, not worth the risk dodging taxis randomly stopping, busses stopped, then moving up the inside of a bunch of cars waiting impatiently at a filter light.

zynaps

Thanks for the comments lads!

loyatemu wrote: »

tbh, if I was alongside the rear of a van or a truck and he was indicating to go left, i'd fall back slightly.

He may have been in the wrong but thats not much use to you if you're dead - van's have sh!te visibility, and that's before taking account of the higher proportion of jerks driving them.

What if you were "alongside the rear" of a van/truck, but they were in the next lane to your right? He indicated, moved into my lane (now alongside me) and then kept going left, all in one move - this all took just a couple of seconds. In fact it would have been safer (i.e. more obvious what he was doing) if he'd simply turned directly left from the right hand lane :P

But yes, I try to compensate for the possible errors of others, just as I do while driving - that's the first time I've been knocked down by a vehicle in about 7 years of commute-cycling (although I've done many stupid things over the years ) - but there's kind of a limit to how defensive your road use can be. I think braking hard every time someone wants to move into your lane would possibly be counterproductive, but I'll certainly be more wary of it in future - perhaps I should have noticed that he didn't cancel his indicator as he came alongside me.

zynaps

kona wrote: »

You are better off moving out of the bus lane into the traffic at that section, because of the bus stop just over the hill, then the odd lighting config at 5 lamps, someday somebody will be creased by a car turning left at that filter.

You're probably right, especially when buses are about. Although in this instance, it might not helped much if he didn't see me... getting hit in the middle of the road vs getting hit near the gutter Although at least with space to slide over there might have time to bang on his window and avert it (in fact, exactly that happened once on Drumcondra Rd with another van driver - stopped and apologised when I slapped on his windows)...

kona wrote: »

For that reason I spend that 400m in the traffic lane, not worth the risk dodging taxis randomly stopping, busses stopped, then moving up the inside of a bunch of cars waiting impatiently at a filter light.

There's also some kind of cycle "path" there, but (as is often the case) it's worse than useless. Speaking of which, I used to avoid the earlier cycle path in Fairview (you know, the one that goes right behind a bus shelter where people walk, turns sharply twice and then vanishes into a wall, etc?) until I got fed up of taxi drivers shouting "USE DE CYCLE LANE" even though it's not a cycle lane - it seems to serve only to let taxi/bus drivers assume that ignorant, selfish cyclists should not be on the road at that point

tomasrojo

seamus wrote: »

It's very easy to forget to do things after an accident because your brain is focussing on 2 things:
1. How is my bike?
2. Am I missing any body parts?

This is perhaps going to be controversial, but I'd reverse the order of those two concerns.

kona

zynaps wrote: »

You're probably right, especially when buses are about. Although in this instance, it might not helped much if he didn't see me... getting hit in the middle of the road vs getting hit near the gutter Although at least with space to slide over there might have time to bang on his window and avert it (in fact, exactly that happened once on Drumcondra Rd with another van driver - stopped and apologised when I slapped on his windows)...

Well you could be hit, but when you pull out into the traffic lane the car behind can see you, when your at the side of the road in the gutter, your getting into blindspots etc.

Legally your not obliged to use cyclelanes, or on paths so **** them with their uninformed opinions, youve as much right as they do.

zynaps wrote: »

There's also some kind of cycle "path" there, but (as is often the case) it's worse than useless. Speaking of which, I used to avoid the earlier cycle path in Fairview (you know, the one that goes right behind a bus shelter where people walk, turns sharply twice and then vanishes into a wall, etc?) until I got fed up of taxi drivers shouting "USE DE CYCLE LANE" even though it's not a cycle lane - it seems to serve only to let taxi/bus drivers assume that ignorant, selfish cyclists should not be on the road at that point

If your coming down the howth road, dont even bother with that cycle lane or the road around fairview, just cycle through fairview park, its quicker and there are no cars.

Sniipe

indicators are an indication, not a right of passage. I'm glad you are not injured badly.

tomasrojo

kona wrote: »

If your coming down the howth road, dont even bother with that cycle lane or the road around fairview, just cycle through fairview park, its quicker and there are no cars.

I used to go that way heading in the Phoenix Park direction. I found it handy to go through the residential streets (an odd web of interconnecting roundabouts) behind St. Joseph's school -- you can cut down the avenue beside City Cycles, past Bram's restaurant and then after a few roundabouts end up on Philipsburgh Avenue.

zynaps

tomasrojo wrote: »

I used to go that way heading in the Phoenix Park direction. I found it handy to go through the residential streets (an odd web of interconnecting roundabouts) behind St. Joseph's school -- you can cut down the avenue beside City Cycles, past Bram's restaurant and then after a few roundabouts end up on Philipsburgh Avenue.

Yep I forgot about this - used those streets to get to Little Sport a week or so ago... it's relaxing to cycle on quiet residential streets - there's no lights to get to before they change, and no sense of pressure from behind (... :pac:) so it feels ok to cycle nice and slow, which suits me!

Google Maps is pretty good for exploring route lengths, but it'd be nice if there was a "cycling" option in addition to driving and walking, which included things that are legal on a bike but not in a car, etc.