Why I remain staunch FF

Liam Byrne

Fiskar wrote: »

The OP can be staunch FF for an eternity but it will not change the result at the next election. FF will get hammered, don't see them back in power for at least a decade.:D

I thought that at the last election, but don't underestimate them.....FF are the cockroaches of politics.

I don't yet know what country I'll move to if this shower of corrupt, self-serving *****s get back in, but I do know that I'll gladly turn my back on Ireland at that stage, because if enough people vote for them then it's not an Ireland I want to be a part of.

Fiskar

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Don't get too excited yet. Do not underestimate the level that Civil war, vote the way of the family politics still exists in Ireland. Surely in any other EU country a party which has done what FF have in recent years would be in the political doldrums for a generation.

Don't believe any of the 450,000 approx on the dole will be thinking about family politics when the election comes round.
Most FF councillors and TDs have run for cover, cannot get my councillor next to or near our estate. Don't see them trying hard at the next election either to win votes. As an FF voter last time out I will be abstaining from the vote next election (I am employed BTW). See a similar situation occurring as in the UK election as I don't see any one party having any "flash of genius" to get the economy going or getting on top of the issues facing the country.

SeaFields

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I don't yet know what country I'll move to if this shower of corrupt, self-serving *****s get back in, but I do know that I'll gladly turn my back on Ireland at that stage, because if enough people vote for them then it's not an Ireland I want to be a part of.

Don't forget that at almost every poll about 25% continue to support FF. On top of that you will have the younger population, who traditionally don't vote FF, heading for far away fields since this country can offer them nothing. And you have the people disillusioned with politics who prob wont vote as they are more concerned with keeping a roof over their head and food on the table. :mad:

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I thought that at the last election, but don't underestimate them.....FF are the cockroaches of politics.

I don't yet know what country I'll move to if this shower of corrupt, self-serving *****s get back in, but I do know that I'll gladly turn my back on Ireland at that stage, because if enough people vote for them then it's not an Ireland I want to be a part of.

Just consider this dude:

FF havent made the cutbacks necessary
almost all the bonds are due to mature during the life of the next govt

meaning the next govt will make almost all of the hard cut backs and will face sovereign default. I know alot of people who will just see FG/Labour come into power and things fall apart. FF will gain popularity again.

The damage is already done the best we can hope for at this stage is for FF to be annihilated as a party. That can only happen when every stratus of Irish society is hurt. This will only happen when we face default. Thats the only way to turn the "FF til I die" types

Fiskar

Fiskar wrote: »

Don't believe any of the 450,000 approx on the dole will be thinking about family politics when the election comes round.
Most FF councillors and TDs have run for cover, cannot get my councillor next to or near our estate. Don't see them trying hard at the next election either to win votes. As an FF voter last time out I will be abstaining from the vote next election (I am employed BTW). See a similar situation occurring as in the UK election as I don't see any one party having any "flash of genius" to get the economy going or getting on top of the issues facing the country.

This all happened in the 1980s, FF ran up a huge deficit, people lost jobs FF survived and history repeated itself

Liam Byrne

Deleted User wrote: »

FF havent made the cutbacks necessary
almost all the bonds are due to mature during the life of the next govt

I'm well aware of that.....it's rinse & repeat......FF make a bollox of the economy, the others come in and spend so long cleaning it up that the public forget, and FF ride in for the recovering tide to make a mess again.

My point is that if people fall for this again then the [collective] country deserves what it gets. FF have even admitted they want to re-inflate the boom, since the success of NAMA depends on it, and to hell with competitiveness......expensive homes and mortgages all the way...

It's the main reason that we've had no sustainable, long term strategy in this country.

And if it doesn't change, it's time for anyone with a brain to turn their back on it.

It could be a great country if run properly and forward-thinking, but if the majority don't want that, then I'm not going to foot the bill after the next election.

bonzos

scr123 wrote: »

Its two years now since the economy began to collapse around our ankles. The property bubble burst as expected and the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage. At that moment what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel. There are people who want to smash that light but their political agenda is easily read and they will not succeed..
I want a change of government because its wrong to have a one party State, FF have gone stale and because FF have been at fault in too many areas. However, when I look to my left I see Labour and a concoction of extremists whose economic policies revolve around TAX AND SPEND. Look to my right and I see Fine Gael who have economic policies of NO TAX AND NO SPEND. Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying..
I have read and listened to all the attacks of FF and they are being repeated ad nauseum. Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more. I see nothing coming from the Left or Right that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF

Just as a matter interest...what is your view on the conduct of CJH,Bertie,Ray Burke,The Flynn's,Jim mc Daid,John O Donoghue..etc.Do you feel these people represent you in a approriate manner in public office? Alot of these people ae been discribed as "honourable" by fellow FFers. Do you agree? Have they conducted themselves correctly in representing the irish people?

Liam Byrne

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I'm well aware of that.....it's rinse & repeat......FF make a bollox of the economy, the others come in and spend so long cleaning it up that the public forget, and FF ride in for the recovering tide to make a mess again.

My point is that if people fall for this again then the [collective] country deserves what it gets. FF have even admitted they want to re-inflate the boom, since the success of NAMA depends on it, and to hell with competitiveness......expensive homes and mortgages all the way...

It's the main reason that we've had no sustainable, long term strategy in this country.

And if it doesn't change, it's time for anyone with a brain to turn their back on it.

It could be a great country if run properly and forward-thinking, but if the majority don't want that, then I'm not going to foot the bill after the next election.

yeah totally agree
where do we go though? US visa is lottery system, Australia completely closed shop to offshore migration visa applications recently.
Suppose its pick the least screwed European country and learn a language. The UK is probably the best option....!

oppenheimer1

Liam Byrne wrote: »

If regulation had been in place and doing its job, who knows ?

Abolishing stamp duty might even have stopped FF relying on it as a source of day-to-day income, and if it were in conjunction with a ban on 100% mortgages, an enforcement of the 3xSALARY rule (maybe even 3x one person's salary) or a 25-year-maximum, then you never know.

I mean, a proper banking system where domestic mortgages and commercial developer loans were kept separate would have avoided the conflict of interest that I started to notice about 8 years ago.

If planning laws ensured that houses were built that could be extended, rather than squeezing 50 houses into an acre, then we could have had a construction industry based on extensions that people wanted, rather than a so-called "property ladder" and a mindset that "we'll be selling someday and will get something back or even make a profit".

I think you are missing my point, which was none of the parties in the Dáil were advocating fiscal responsibility during the boom. In fact the government at the time was criticised for not spending enough. It was a waste they said to pay down the national debt with the unexpected budget surplus. With this in mind how could one be confident in the current oppositions ability to manage the nation? At least the incumbents are trying and succeeding with the cuts they have imposed and are not backing down on them.

Better the Devil you know... at least until 2012.

Baralis1

Fianna Fail have an awful lot of faults, not least their refusal to allow those three by-elections, but at the end of the day, would Fine Gael have done anything different over the last 10 - 15 years if they had led a coalition. It would basically have been role reversal. They and Labour encouraged spending and the boom as much as anyone else with their policies. I think whatever government we have needs to be stable and last a full 5 year term is we are to get back on track. And I really couldn't stomach Enda Kenny as Taoiseach, why don't they get rid of him and bring on Richard Bruton, or better still, Leo Varadkar - someone young with fresh ideas.

Tim Robbins

scr123 wrote: »

... that will resolve the problems facing this country and under the circumstances I remain staunch FF

scr123 is there anything that would make you not vote FF? How bad do things have to get?

Liam Byrne

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

I think you are missing my point, which was none of the parties in the Dáil were advocating fiscal responsibility during the boom. In fact the government at the time was criticised for not spending enough.

And I think you are missing mine. I said it's not a question of how much you spend......it's what you spend it on.

So saying "FG said to spend more" is irrelevant without saying what they were spending it on.

Imagine - for example - if they'd spent some of it on broadband ?

Think - for a second - how much did FF waste on eVoting machines ? (including their storage and destruction)

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Better the Devil you know... at least until 2012.

That's fine as a Kylie song title, but in reality I'd prefer not to know any devils, let alone give them opportunities to flush more billions down the toilet via clandestine undocumented meetings.

Anyways, I think we're hijacking the thread because - looking at the immediately preceding post Tim Robbins appears to not have realised that I'd already asked scr123 that question and gotten absolutely no reply.

MrDarcy

scr123 wrote: »

Life is about words like balance, equilibrium, negotiation, compromise, hope, optimism, solutions, confidence and more

How about life maybe being about having a little bit of f*cking competence, a smidgen of responsibility, and maybe the tiniest degree of selflessness and maybe acting in the common good instead of trying to get elected back to power on the back of outrageous "sure you can all regulate yourselves, see you in the tent in Galway", type policies relating to property and banking???

Sulmac

Baralis1 wrote: »

Fianna Fail have an awful lot of faults, not least their refusal to allow those three by-elections, but at the end of the day, would Fine Gael have done anything different over the last 10 - 15 years if they had led a coalition.

Although you may well be right, I am more concerned about voting on issues and policies relevant now rather than issues from three years ago at the last election.

maynooth_rules

Baralis1 wrote: »

Fianna Fail have an awful lot of faults, not least their refusal to allow those three by-elections, but at the end of the day, would Fine Gael have done anything different over the last 10 - 15 years if they had led a coalition.

Don't mean to be attacking you hear, but it really really irriatates me when people look past Fianna Fail mistakes and say that the opposition would have done the same. We have no basis for saying that. Judge Fianna Fail on what they have done in recent years, not on the basis that the oppisition MIGHT have done the same. Some people seem to be absconding Fianna Fail of blame by attacking the opposition over issues they have no control over

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

maynooth_rules

Quite simply, the last election was dominated by self-congratulatory, feel-good waffle. None of the parties were advocating a U-turn in strategy—none of them fundamentally opposed what the bankers and developers were doing.

But only one party had a tent at the Galway Races to cosy up to these developers and bankers. Everything that is wrong with our country took place in that tent:mad:

scr123

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Don't mean to be attacking you hear, but it really really irriatates me when people look past Fianna Fail mistakes and say that the opposition would have done the same. We have no basis for saying that. Judge Fianna Fail on what they have done in recent years, not on the basis that the oppisition MIGHT have done the same. Some people seem to be absconding Fianna Fail of blame by attacking the opposition over issues they have no control over

For two years now in the real world I have asked those critical of FF three questions:
1 How exactly did FF ruin the country
2 What would they have done
3 What will they do to restore the economy

On question 1 they will go on for hours badmouthing FF
Ask them to turn to 2 and 3 they totally and utterly refuse to engage and instead continue badmouthing FF.

Why should I even remotely contemplate the Opposition as an alternative to FF ?

I have no choice but to continue voting FF and this is a deplorable situation

maynooth_rules

scr123 wrote: »

For two years now in the real world I have asked those critical of FF three questions:
1 How exactly did FF ruin the country
2 What would they have done
3 What will they do to restore the economy

On question 1 they will go on for hours badmouthing FF
Ask them to turn to 2 and 3 they totally and utterly refuse to engage and instead continue badmouthing FF.

Why should I even remotely contemplate the Opposition as an alternative to FF ?

I have no choice but to continue voting FF and this is a deplorable situation

Can I ask what is your basis for voting FF?? Is it simply because the Opposition are not impressing you enough??

loldog

maynooth_rules wrote: »

Can I ask what is your basis for voting FF?? Is it simply because the Opposition are not impressing you enough??

Well he has a point, in fairness. It's actually a valid reason to vote for a party - the absence of a better alternative.

.

Permabear

This post has been deleted.

danman

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

This post fully explains the "How do you know they would have done the same" argument.

There also seems to be an argument, that we should remember FF's past, but forget about FG's previous manifestos.

I would consider FF this time in the next election, simply because, as far as I can see, they seem to be doing everything required to get us out of the mess.

I've stated before, I voted FG in the last GE.

But the opposition are simply living up to their name. They just seem to oppose anything and everything.
Yet they will not give unequivocal terms of how they would cut the budget, or increase taxes, simply because it would make them unpopular as well.

This strategey seems to me, to be every much as dishonest, trying to appear as populist as possible, without having to make any real decisions. To try to get into government.

As dishonest as not holding elections to hold onto a majority.

I'm going to hold my vote in reserve untill the election time.
If FG don't come out in public and state how exactly they are going to cut expenditure and increase income. I'll vote the current lot back in. At least I'll know that they are doing the correct things.

Sulmac

danman wrote: »

I would consider FF this time in the next election, simply because, as far as I can see, they seem to be doing everything required to get us out of the mess.

The mess that they quite clearly got us into. They shouldn't be congratulated for fixing (or, more appropriately, attempting to fix) something they caused.

Yet they will not give unequivocal terms of how they would cut the budget, or increase taxes, simply because it would make them unpopular as well.

Fine Gael: see this, this and this. Detailed policy documents on the public finances and banking crisis (among other issues).

Labour: see this, this and this.

This strategey seems to me, to be every much as dishonest, trying to appear as populist as possible, without having to make any real decisions. To try to get into government.

As personified by the Bertie years. It's not like the government parties are being completely honest with us either. Every few weeks another bank needs a few more billion pumped into it, or there's some political scandal (think John O'Donoghue, Trevor Sargent, Willie O'Dea).

As donegalfella said, if they were brutally honest about taxes-and-cuts, they wouldn't have a chance of political office as we're consistently "turning a corner" and "going forward" with the current shower. Advocating mass tax increases or public spending cuts is political suicide, whether you're in government or opposition.

As dishonest as not holding elections to hold onto a majority.

Going to have to agree here.

I'm going to hold my vote in reserve untill the election time.
If FG don't come out in public and state how exactly they are going to cut expenditure and increase income. I'll vote the current lot back in. At least I'll know that they are doing the correct things.

Or know what they're not doing.

danman

Sulmac wrote: »

Although you may well be right, I am more concerned about voting on issues and policies relevant now rather than issues from three years ago at the last election.

Sulmac wrote: »

The mess that they quite clearly got us into. They shouldn't be congratulated for fixing (or, more appropriately, attempting to fix) something they caused.

don't you see the contradiction there.
We should forget about one thing, but remember something else?

As to whether the government are doing the right things, that's simply a matter of opinion.
I resepct others opinion, and I expect my opinion to be respected.

And as the old saying goes, opinions are like arseholes, everyone has one.
(well, not everyone, ostomites excluded )

Sulmac

danman wrote: »

don't you see the contradiction there.
We should forget about one thing, but remember something else?

Well, that's debatable, but there's a difference in what one group said they would and what another group actually did.

I do see your point though.

Liam Byrne

danman wrote: »

don't you see the contradiction there.
We should forget about one thing, but remember something else?

OK - let's assume that FG's strategy was based on the same ideas, and that they wouldn't have spent the same money more wisely.

So (for the sake of argument) let's assume that both are "equal" on that front.

Based on current strategies alone, FF want NAMA and Anglo-Irish bailouts, while FG don't.

1) FF are lying through their teeth every second day about the amounts that Anglo and NAMA will cost us.
2) FF created legislation to benefit banks and developers which had absolutely no safeguards, and wash their hands of every bank decision made since.
3) FF continue to vote confidence in corrupt con-men and expense-grabbers.
4) FF shuffle a cabinet of incompetents around, making no real changes and offering no leaders or inspiration to a country in crisis.
5) FF - despite not allowing for an election - continue to be deluded and refuse to acknowledge that they did anything to the detriment of the country.

Even leaving aside whether FG would have landed us in as deep a mess (and personally I don't think they would) those reasons above alone - and the resulting future uncompetitiveness - are good enough reasons not to vote FF.

Tim Robbins

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

In fairness, how do you think a polictical party would have done in 2007 if they said the economy would grow for another year and a half and then completly collapse.

The problem with FF is that they are linked with vested interest groups that are central to the economic mess. It would be the equivalent of 12 years of FG and all of a sudden farmers causing economic collapse.

Get a good strong FG in, with the minimum amount of labour as possible and keep going with cut backs and increased regulation of finacial services. The government should last at least 2.5 years.

By that stage, Cowen will be gone. And hopefully Martin will be leader with a better FF government.

That's the best hope for Ireland right now.

danman

Liam Byrne wrote: »

OK - let's assume that FG's strategy was based on the same ideas, and that they wouldn't have spent the same money more wisely.

So (for the sake of argument) let's assume that both are "equal" on that front.

Based on current strategies alone, FF want NAMA and Anglo-Irish bailouts, while FG don't.

1) FF are lying through their teeth every second day about the amounts that Anglo and NAMA will cost us.
2) FF created legislation to benefit banks and developers which had absolutely no safeguards, and wash their hands of every bank decision made since.
3) FF continue to vote confidence in corrupt con-men and expense-grabbers.
4) FF shuffle a cabinet of incompetents around, making no real changes and offering no leaders or inspiration to a country in crisis.
5) FF - despite not allowing for an election - continue to be deluded and refuse to acknowledge that they did anything to the detriment of the country.

Even leaving aside whether FG would have landed us in as deep a mess (and personally I don't think they would) those reasons above alone - and the resulting future uncompetitiveness - are good enough reasons not to vote FF.

Liam, you are forgetting 2 very important points about this:-

1) FG are in opposition, no one can say that given the choice, they woulnt have done the exact same things. Their job in the Dail is to oppose any legislation and propose alternatives.

It is not simply as easy as saying, hey wouldn't have set up NAMA if they were in government.
The government have more information at their disposal to make these decisions. FG wouldn't have agreed with the strategy if FF had set up a bad bank, would they?
They might have come up with a NAMA.

This brings me to point 2

2) A FG government would have the exact same civil servants giving the exact same advice.

Do you think that FF came up with the idea of NAMA, or anything else for that matter?

They react on the advice given.

It's all retorical, I know, but it is important, if the argument is being used that FG wouldn't have used the same tactics as FF to solve the economic problems.

Liam Byrne

danman wrote: »

They might have come up with a NAMA.

And if they had I'd be criticising them, too.

I notice that you bypassed the issue of Anglo, which FG were COMPLETELY against.

danman wrote: »

Do you think that FF came up with the idea of NAMA, or anything else for that matter?

The point is that they wrote it into law, with no safeguards.

If indeed you were right, then I'd be criticising FG here - as I've said before I have no party allegience.

But at the moment such statements are similar to the "do all men cheat" questions on the PI thread.....until someone does, then you can't assume that they would.

danman

Liam Byrne wrote: »

I notice that you bypassed the issue of Anglo, which FG were COMPLETELY against.

I only picked NAMA, the point for Anglo is the same.

They are completly against it, in the exact same way they are against NAMA.
If they had the exact same advise, they could well have made the same decisions.

As you say, if FG were making the decisions about NAMA while in government, I would probably look at in the same way I do now.

The point I made, was the same advise would be available.

I always see government in a very simplified way.
Problem comes up, government asks the civil service how it can be solved, decision is made.

Government comes up with a direction, the civil service tells them how it can be done.

Government - "Banks are in the ****e"
civil service - "Capitalise and form NAMA"
Government - "Right, so"
Opposition - "that's wrong, do it this way..."

Nate--IRL--

It's more like,

Government - "We must do something!"
Civil service - "This is something"
Government - "Let's do that!"

Nate

Fr0g

The Rainbow coalition of 94 to 97 was one of the most successful governments we have ever had. They managed to grow the economy (creating 1000 jobs a week) while keeping inflation below 2%. They brought in the first budget surplus in 28 years. This was an economy based on sound fundamentals i.e. manufaturing and exports. As soon as FF got into power they completely lost the run of themselves slashing taxes and increasing spending to the extent that inflation spiralled out of control reaching almost 7% within 3 years of FF taking power. I have no problem voting FG or Labour based on their previous record.

oppenheimer1

Fr0g wrote: »

The Rainbow coalition of 94 to 97 was one of the most successful governments we have ever had. They managed to grow the economy (creating 1000 jobs a week) while keeping inflation below 2%. They brought in the first budget surplus in 28 years. This was an economy based on sound fundamentals i.e. manufaturing and exports. As soon as FF got into power they completely lost the run of themselves slashing taxes and increasing spending to the extent that inflation spiralled out of control reaching almost 7% within 3 years of FF taking power. I have no problem voting FG or Labour based on their previous record.

Would their previous record include what they have written in their Manifestos?

fontanalis

Ah staunchy memories.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/04/17/story30612.asp

Fr0g

oppenheimer1 wrote: »

Would their previous record include what they have written in their Manifestos?

It would be based on their previous record in office. You would be a fool to believe anything written in an election manifesto tbh.

Fr0g

fontanalis wrote: »

Ah staunchy memories.
http://archives.tcm.ie/irishexaminer/2007/04/17/story30612.asp

lol! I think that proves my point.

Fr0g

Cowens speech at the launch of FF's Economic Policy Document 16th April 2007:

FF Economic Policy Document Speech

And a choice quote:

The next generation will not inherit our net debt and their opportunities and choices will be all the better as a direct result of our prudence, responsibility and long-term approach. Lifting the burden of debt from the shoulders of our children is not only the most fiscally-prudent course, it is simply the right thing to do for a generation which will face increased economic competition from across the world. It is important that all our resources are available to meet future challenges.

What a sad, sad fool.

eigrod

In response to the OP, a small selection of reasons why I never have or never will vote FF :

CJ Haughey
P. Flynn
Beverley Cooper Flynn
Liam Lawlor
Denis Foley
Ray Burke
Bertie Ahern
Charlie McCreevey
Jim McDaid
John O' Donoghue
Frank Dunlop
Galway tent
Anglo Irish Bank

ejmaztec

I can't help but think that "staunch" is almost the same as "stench".

scr123

eigrod wrote: »

In response to the OP, a small selection of reasons why I never have or never will vote FF :

CJ Haughey
P. Flynn
Beverley Cooper Flynn
Liam Lawlor
Denis Foley
Ray Burke
Bertie Ahern
Charlie McCreevey
Jim McDaid
John O' Donoghue
Frank Dunlop
Galway tent
Anglo Irish Bank

I have one main reason why I cannot vote for any part of the Opposition, THEY TERRIFY ME !
I could write pages of why I will not vote other than FF but talking to a wall of intolerance is a waste of time.

What I will say is this, once the next GE is over watch the unemployment figures climb to somewhere between 700000 to 800000. Watch the destruction of confidence in the business community.

The Polls suggest the electorate wants to punish FF
This is the same arrogant electorate, mainly the Opposition, who punished FF by voting No in first Lisbon Treaty referendum

The same arrogant electorate who 18 months or so later realised their blunder and voted 2 to 1 in favour of the Treaty

Yes I say FF need a break from Government but holy god the next 4 years is not the time to get rid of them and put in place a concoction with a sickening record of failure

paddyland

scr123 wrote: »

I have one main reason why I cannot vote for any part of the Opposition, THEY TERRIFY ME !
I could write pages of why I will not vote other than FF but talking to a wall of intolerance is a waste of time.

What I will say is this, once the next GE is over watch the unemployment figures climb to somewhere between 700000 to 800000. Watch the destruction of confidence in the business community.

The Polls suggest the electorate wants to punish FF
This is the same arrogant electorate, mainly the Opposition, who punished FF by voting No in first Lisbon Treaty referendum

The same arrogant electorate who 18 months or so later realised their blunder and voted 2 to 1 in favour of the Treaty

Yes I say FF need a break from Government but holy god the next 4 years is not the time to get rid of them and put in place a concoction with a sickening record of failure

You're talking through your backside. There's nothing any opposition party could do to worsen this country that FF haven't already done. FF have had 14 consecutive years of destroying the whole fundamental basis of this country. They and their supporters haved raped everything good this country had. WHERE is our export economy? WHERE is our indigenous industry? WHERE is our focussed forward planning and development? They have never, ever governed for the people as a whole, only for one selfish sector of society. They were ALWAYS that way. A large percentage of people continue to vote for them, but they are voting in the hopes that FF will facilitate them to get ahead personally, at the expense of everyone else.

FF are a party for a very self serving, cronyist sector of society. Why share the good of the country equally, when you can keep a very large slice of it within the 'boy's club?' That's what you staunchly stand for. A selfish, favouritist, two tier, get rich quick society with no plan or sense of the long term future. You are probably right not to trust the opposition either. But your beloved FF party are rotten to the core, and proven so, over 14 years of consecutive government, not to mention previous generations. The imperative now is to get rid of them as soon as possible. They are not even fit to sit on the opposition benches, as they represent a wholly toxic and reckless viewpoint. We will never progress as a nation as long as there is a FF mindset in this country. We don't seem to have anyone eloquent enough to put the case in the public arena.

scr123

paddyland wrote: »

You're talking through your backside. There's nothing any opposition party could do to worsen this country that FF haven't already done. FF have had 14 consecutive years of destroying the whole fundamental basis of this country. They and their supporters haved raped everything good this country had. WHERE is our export economy? WHERE is our indigenous industry? WHERE is our focussed forward planning and development? They have never, ever governed for the people as a whole, only for one selfish sector of society. They were ALWAYS that way. A large percentage of people continue to vote for them, but they are voting in the hopes that FF will facilitate them to get ahead personally, at the expense of everyone else.

FF are a party for a very self serving, cronyist sector of society. Why share the good of the country equally, when you can keep a very large slice of it within the 'boy's club?' That's what you staunchly stand for. A selfish, favouritist, two tier, get rich quick society with no plan or sense of the long term future. You are probably right not to trust the opposition either. But your beloved FF party are rotten to the core, and proven so, over 14 years of consecutive government, not to mention previous generations. The imperative now is to get rid of them as soon as possible. They are not even fit to sit on the opposition benches, as they represent a wholly toxic and reckless viewpoint. We will never progress as a nation as long as there is a FF mindset in this country. We don't seem to have anyone eloquent enough to put the case in the public arena.

Am afraid this can only be described as another rant against FF, one of millions on the internet. Easy for any fool to do but it takes brains and courage to look into the mirror and say " Hey, what I have to offer is better so let me spell it out "
In November 1982 when we had a similar situation with FF blamed for every problem the country faced the people shafted FF. In December 1982 and January 1983 21000 were added to the dole. From there the unemployment went crazy and I am open to correction when I say the rate hit 22%. On top of this the National Debt was doubled during the life of the disastrous Coalition of FG/ Lab. Dont believe a word I say, just check it out !
Look at what is on offer today as an alternative to FF who are tackling not only the usual cyclical problem of economic recession but an unprecedented crash of the banks, we have a potential Coalition identical to that which took over in 1982 and multiplied the problems !! The thoughts of FG and Lab in government again gives me diarrhoea.

Get this in to your heads those who hate FF, stop badmouthing FF as it has all been heard before. What I and the people of the country want is a viable alternative to FF, so far there isnt a shred of evidence you lot are even remotely capable of running the country. FG and Lab are so far apart they might as well be on two different planets, heck maybe they are ! Remember an election could happen any day and if you want to get in on the act you better come to rehearsals !!

Liam Byrne

scr123 wrote: »

Look at what is on offer today as an alternative to FF who are tackling not only the usual cyclical problem of economic recession but an unprecedented crash of the banks, we have a potential Coalition identical to that which took over in 1982 and multiplied the problems !!

So it's a "cyclical problem" now, eh ? Nothing whatsover to do with the fact that FF would have been hired to actually manage the economy, and made a complete bollox of it.

scr123 wrote: »

I could write pages of why I will not vote other than FF but talking to a wall of intolerance is a waste of time.

Nice avoidance of the requirement to back up your opinion.....I'm sure that everyone here would be delighted to read any possible spin that you might put on it.....and remember that the intolerance is there BECAUSE of the list of people and policies that you completely ignored.

What's even more ironic is that posters don't even have to write "pages and pages" when it comes to FF.....the corruption is so endemic that all one has to do is mention the names and everyone knows EXACTLY what corruption they are talking about.

scr123 wrote: »

Get this in to your heads those who hate FF, stop badmouthing FF as it has all been heard before.

I wonder why that is ? Probably because it's the truth. Probably because FF don't change. Probably because even when it's listed out in front of them, some people remain "staunch" supporters.

scr123 wrote: »

What I and the people of the country want is a viable alternative to FF, so far there isnt a shred of evidence you lot are even remotely capable of running the country.

No you don't! You've started a thread that you are "staunch FF", which means you haven't a notion of even considering anyone else.

And two other things.....firstly, who are "you lot" ?

And secondly I'm looking for a viable government, but I don't need one to be viable in order for it to be an alternative to FF, who have certainly proven that they are not even "remotely capable of running the country".

scr123 wrote: »

FG and Lab are so far apart they might as well be on two different planets, heck maybe they are !

And maybe, just maybe, as a result we could get a proper balanced economy, based on a pro-business but pro-worker equilibrium ? Just a thought.....and we'll never know unless we try.

scr123 wrote: »

Remember an election could happen any day and if you want to get in on the act you better come to rehearsals !!

And remember if FF want to be taken seriously then they should stop voting confidence in corrupt scumbags and stop having such a ****e track record.

steelcityblues

What exactly was arrogant about an electorate voting 'NO' first time around? Not that I believe most yes/no voters were informed enough about the Treaty!

Were the government not the arrogant ones by not accepting the democratic mandate (with word from the EU) and holding a second vote?

Mike 1972

scr123 wrote: »

arrogant electorate

WTF ?

thebman

scr123 wrote: »

Am afraid this can only be described as another rant against FF, one of millions on the internet. Easy for any fool to do but it takes brains and courage to look into the mirror and say " Hey, what I have to offer is better so let me spell it out "
In November 1982 when we had a similar situation with FF blamed for every problem the country faced the people shafted FF. In December 1982 and January 1983 21000 were added to the dole. From there the unemployment went crazy and I am open to correction when I say the rate hit 22%. On top of this the National Debt was doubled during the life of the disastrous Coalition of FG/ Lab. Dont believe a word I say, just check it out !
Look at what is on offer today as an alternative to FF who are tackling not only the usual cyclical problem of economic recession but an unprecedented crash of the banks, we have a potential Coalition identical to that which took over in 1982 and multiplied the problems !! The thoughts of FG and Lab in government again gives me diarrhoea.

Get this in to your heads those who hate FF, stop badmouthing FF as it has all been heard before. What I and the people of the country want is a viable alternative to FF, so far there isnt a shred of evidence you lot are even remotely capable of running the country. FG and Lab are so far apart they might as well be on two different planets, heck maybe they are ! Remember an election could happen any day and if you want to get in on the act you better come to rehearsals !!

To sum up your attitude from previous posts and this one. If bad things happen when FG are in, its their fault. When bad things happen when FF are in, its cyclical/unavoidable.

And we are supposed to believe your one of the smart section of the electorate based on that?

Your essentially a FF cheerleader, why on earth would I take anything you have to say seriously?

ejmaztec

scr123 wrote: »

, so far there isnt a shred of evidence you lot are even remotely capable of running the country.

You're too far gone to argue with, but I would say that there's a hell of a lot more evidence of FF not being able to run the country, than there is of the opposition not being able to.

Sand

@scr123

In November 1982 when we had a similar situation with FF blamed for every problem the country faced the people shafted FF

LOL ****ing tastic.

Credibility

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You.

Liam Byrne

Sand wrote: »

@scr123



LOL ****ing tastic.

Credibility

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>
<

---

You.

Ah now, don't mock the afflicted, Sand........to be fair to scr123, they didn't actually mention whether the "blame" was justified or claim that the electorate was wrong in shafting FF.

So maybe there's a hint of reality in there somewhere....it's just well-hidden......or should that be "staunchly" hidden.....

Colonel Sanders

scr123 wrote: »

The property bubble burst as expected

As expected?

Oh really?

I reference this piece by Morgan Kelly, probably one of the nay sayers our glorious ex Taoiseach told to commit suicide

scr123 wrote: »

the economy went in to recession as expected it would at some stage.

was the FF manifesto in 2007 not based on a growing economy (albeit at a slower rate than 1997-2007?

scr123 wrote: »

what we didnt know was the extent of the problems at the banks.

Morgan Kelly, David McWilliams and many more respected economists would disagree. They predicted almost precisely what was going to happen in relation to our banks. Of course FF were acting on the 'best possible advice available' :rolleyes:

scr123 wrote: »

Two years of economic, political and social upheaval but it looks as if there is light at the end of the tunnel.

Yes we've definitely turned a corner (see attachment). Just as it's impossible to 'talk our selves into a recession' it's also impossible to spin & bluff your way out of one

scr123 wrote: »

FF have been at fault in too many areas.

How many areas would they have to be at fault for you to stopped 'staunchly' supporting them?

scr123 wrote: »

Economically, politically and socially the Left and Right are so far apart the thoughts of them in government together is terrifying.

Did the last Rainbow coalition terrify you? Do you still have nightmares over the mess they made? :rolleyes:

scr123 wrote: »

I remain staunch FF

Good luck with that :rolleyes: