Type of amp you learn on and feel

Grolschevik

Passing thought, inspired by listening to old ZZ Top, then seeing Muse on TV.

I was thinking "man, does Billy Gibbons coax some really sweet, soulful tones out of his fingers and gear -- it'd take me a year to cop the feel and tone on Blue Jean Blues".

And with Muse, I was thinking "nice, but not-subtle-at-all over-gained flashiness that, if I put my mind to, I could copy in an afternoon because it's all fingering, no feel".

Whether you agree with that or not, I reckon our (classic) guitar heroes' tone is something we aspire to because they learned to play -- and play the amp as an instrument too -- and got their feel from playing the likes of old Fender Champs, etc.

In my case, it was a Peavey Studio Pro (let's not mention the Gorilla months!). Instant, acceptable footswitchable gain. I didn't have to learn how to vary my pick attack, or experiment with tape recorders as preamps for extra drive or anything like it, or even turn it up that loud. And I think I'm a lesser guitarist because of it.

Main point? Everyone should learn to play on a vintage Champ and not be allowed effects, channel switching, or modelling til they're good and ready!

Alanstrainor

Im sure people were saying "Learn on an acoustic before touching an electric" back when electrics started to become popular. Everyone wants the latest and greatest gear, and they want to sound like their heroes straight away, if a modelling amp does that then great!

rcaz

Grolschevik wrote: »

Main point? Everyone should learn to play on a vintage Champ and not be allowed effects, channel switching, or modelling til they're good and ready!

And what if someone gets into guitar specifically because they're into My Bloody Valentine, or mid-90s Flaming Lips, or Nels Cline? They shouldn't be allowed any of the gear that they really want?

You're spending too much time thinking about old fashions. The guitar is a very different instrument now, plugging into an over driven tube amp and playing minor pentatonic 'licks' isn't enough to stand out anymore. The only reason you feel that way about Billy Gibbons is because, back when he did it, it was fresh and exciting. So if everyone followed your advice, we wouldn't have those people anymore, because the boundaries wouldn't be being pushed as far as they could be.

Miklos

I think the point he's making is that it would be a valuable asset to figure out all the possible sounds you can get out of your own technique before your playing becomes clouded by effects etc.

Sergio

NickWray wrote: »

I think the point he's making is that it would be a valuable asset to figure out all the possible sounds you can get out of your own technique before your playing becomes clouded by effects etc.

Couldnt agree more with your comment.tones is in the hands and fingers and the FX sounds are their to enhance ones sound not cloud it or cover up mistakes or sloppy playing in my opinion!

Sandvich

Grolschevik wrote: »

Passing thought, inspired by listening to old ZZ Top, then seeing Muse on TV.

I was thinking "man, does Billy Gibbons coax some really sweet, soulful tones out of his fingers and gear -- it'd take me a year to cop the feel and tone on Blue Jean Blues".

And with Muse, I was thinking "nice, but not-subtle-at-all over-gained flashiness that, if I put my mind to, I could copy in an afternoon because it's all fingering, no feel".

Whether you agree with that or not, I reckon our (classic) guitar heroes' tone is something we aspire to because they learned to play -- and play the amp as an instrument too -- and got their feel from playing the likes of old Fender Champs, etc.

In my case, it was a Peavey Studio Pro (let's not mention the Gorilla months!). Instant, acceptable footswitchable gain. I didn't have to learn how to vary my pick attack, or experiment with tape recorders as preamps for extra drive or anything like it, or even turn it up that loud. And I think I'm a lesser guitarist because of it.

Main point? Everyone should learn to play on a vintage Champ and not be allowed effects, channel switching, or modelling til they're good and ready!

I think that's BS. People mistake "blues technique" for "feel" and it's getting really old and boring.

Why would you want to cop the tone and feel of an old song everyone's spent so much time copping the tone and feel of?

Is it really a "feel" when you're copping it off someone else? Do you feel the same way Billy Gibbons did when he wrote that song? How do you know even Billy Gibbons felt the way his guitar sounded, or was it just luck or copping it from someone else(most likely an older black musician).

Sandvich

NickWray wrote: »

I think the point he's making is that it would be a valuable asset to figure out all the possible sounds you can get out of your own technique before your playing becomes clouded by effects etc.

I think you're kind of missing El Pr0n's point. Not everyone is interested in those sounds to begin with.

Personally I started out using effects and modelers and I don't have a huge problem. I'm gradually learning a lot of the "feel" techniques, even if by accident. I still don't have the same feeling as these older blues/classic rock guitarists, but that's because I'm not them and am not into the business of deluding myself otherwise.

I think people like the OP don't realise that most modelers do allow for serious playing dynamics and have done since the early 2000s. It's not perfect, but neither is every amp, and it's getting better.

A lot of people feel the opposite way, and that starting off with a ****ter amp helps you focus on the real basics, and using a modeler can help you decide what sort of amp you really want.

Miklos

Sandvich wrote: »

I think you're kind of missing El Pr0n's point. Not everyone is interested in those sounds to begin with.

I'm not speaking from any particular genre of music's point of view, really. So those sounds can be anything. I just think that some people can get a bit caught up in trying to sound like certain players before they've gotten an idea of what they sound like themselves.

Paolo_M

The point of exploring fully what is possible with just you fingers, guitar and cleanish amp is a valid one IMO.

Many people seem to tied up in chasing specific tones or gagets to achieve what they want. These things are great but are there to enhance what is already there.

Some can fall into the trap of obtaining all this gear early one when they're learning the instrument, especially now when it's so cheap, and I do believe it holds certain people back from truly exploring and enhancing their own playing and technique.

Sandvich

Many people seem to tied up in chasing specific tones or gagets to achieve what they want. These things are great but are there to enhance what is already there

Not really. Spend a few minutes playing around with an M9 and expression pedal and you can make sounds that were never there to begin with.

Again most guitarists are coming from the blooz, classic rawk and metulz perspective and tend to judge other schools of guitar negatively.

Sandvich

NickWray wrote: »

I'm not speaking from any particular genre of music's point of view, really. So those sounds can be anything. I just think that some people can get a bit caught up in trying to sound like certain players before they've gotten an idea of what they sound like themselves.

When you're trying to emulate Stevie Ray Vaughan like most "feel" heavy players seem to, I hardly think you sound like yourself.

Miklos

Sandvich wrote: »

Not really. Spend a few minutes playing around with an M9 and expression pedal and you can make sounds that were never there to begin with.

Again most guitarists are coming from the blooz, classic rawk and metulz perspective and tend to judge other schools of guitar negatively.

Well, I think you've shown your own prejudices here.

Personally, I can't stand Stevie Ray Vaughan, nor would I call myself a feely player. This is what I do.
I've always preferred to keep it simple, guitarwise.


Anyway I think we're getting far away from the point.

Voodu Child

I think it's true that modelling amps don't fully prepare you for playing a cranked tube amp, and im sure thats something most people have experienced at some stage. You spend ages noodling away on a quiet microcube and then when you plug into a real amp (classic or otherwise) your dynamics, pick attack, handling noise etc are all over the place.

It's probably no different to keyboard/piano.... I mean, if you want to be able to play piano well, you'll need to spend time in front of a real piano and not something with plastic buttons.

But as for suggesting that classic amps or classic tones somehow require or allow more 'feel' than a modern high-gain amp I think that's codswallop. A cranked high-gain amp offers just as much tonal variation and dynamics as a classic Fender or whatever.

Fingers Mcginty

Voodu Child wrote: »

I think it's true that modelling amps don't fully prepare you for playing a cranked tube amp, and im sure thats something most people have experienced at some stage. You spend ages noodling away on a quiet microcube and then when you plug into a real amp (classic or otherwise) your dynamics, pick attack, handling noise etc are all over the place.

It's probably no different to keyboard/piano.... I mean, if you want to be able to play piano well, you'll need to spend time in front of a real piano and not something with plastic buttons.

But as for suggesting that classic amps or classic tones somehow require or allow more 'feel' than a modern high-gain amp I think that's codswallop. A cranked high-gain amp offers just as much tonal variation and dynamics as a classic Fender or whatever.

HA HA Voodoo ...howdy brutha ...long time no hear. Love the slight return bit. Very clever....That was intentional yeah?

rcaz

Is a 'cranked' tube amp really the bottom line for comparisons?

All those dodgy old modelling amps were rubbish, because they didn't sound like the amps they were modeling, so they had their own sound and character. What if someone prefers that sound to the generally-accepted 'good' amp sounds?

Paolo_M

Sandvich wrote: »

Not really. Spend a few minutes playing around with an M9 and expression pedal and you can make sounds that were never there to begin with.

Again most guitarists are coming from the blooz, classic rawk and metulz perspective and tend to judge other schools of guitar negatively.

I guess you're looking at piano vs electronica music there though.

My understanding was that the thread related to the are of playing guitar as opposed to the art of producing interesting soundscapes using a guitar.

Don't get me wrong, all music is perfectly valid (except country ), just that my comments were from the perspective of the playing itself.

Sandvich

Paolo_M wrote: »

I guess you're looking at piano vs electronica music there though.

My understanding was that the thread related to the are of playing guitar as opposed to the art of producing interesting soundscapes using a guitar.

Don't get me wrong, all music is perfectly valid (except country ), just that my comments were from the perspective of the playing itself.

I understand where you're coming from, but as I said I'm an effects heavy player and I haven't had a problem learning with a doofy little tube amp(Vox AC4TV) later in the game. I don't think it necessarily matters much what you start off with, but if anything it can be better starting off on a ****ty 10 Watt SS amp, then working your way up to modelers, then to the amp you really want. To me it seems like a natural progression(though modelers are getting so good the last step is no longer all that necessary).

Also there's a big difference between bands like My Bloody Valentine and "similar" electronica acts. The guitar as a control interface is way different, personally I'm much more comfortable with it than keys for most things, and of course the sounds you get are never quite the same as a synth, a lot of people find a guitar with effects to be more organic than most modern synths. Also, the fact that you're still playing guitar and can drop out of effects mode for more traditionally guitar stuff whenever, but since the emphasis isn't on that it's not as important to learn all the traditional bluesy tricks.

There's a lot of stuff that people learn to do with effects too. There are certain ways of playing that make modulations like phasers and flangers a lot more "transparent" instead of swooshy; and of course pedals like the whammy, and delays can do lots of crazy stuff too. Even though I'm ideally an effects heavy player, most of the time I'm still stuck in the rut of going guitar -> amp and contrary to other people, I feel it affects my playing negatively as I don't spend as much time thinking about textures and how I can fit them into a song.

I've bought an M9 and Korg Pandora to help rectify this though. I was worried I'd hear most useful uses of guitar effects but a few minutes playing around with the M9, and you can get some seriously useful and musical sounds, some of which still keep some of your guitar's sound with it(especially since you have a mix knob on some effects).

rcaz

Paolo_M wrote: »

My understanding was that the thread related to the are of playing guitar as opposed to the art of producing interesting soundscapes using a guitar.

Either way the guitar is being played.


Re: the guitar-as-synth thing, I'm all for that. A pedal board is a system, not just a collection of pedals, in the same way a modular synth isn't just a collection of modules. Except with a pedal board, you have a guitar instead of VCOs.

Sometimes I get the impression from people that, as a guitarist with a big pedal board (or even just a pedal board with unconventional effects, like a ring modulator and 3 delays), I get looked down on by other 'traditional' guitarists. But in my mind, the 'traditional' guy playing 'licks' is getting stale, and I'm doing my best to think outside the box.

Massive +1 on effects having a feel too. I do a lot of 'violining' on my volume knob, and you get the feel for rolling the volume up enough to get that 'bite' from the distortion pedal, timing it so that the phaser is at the top of the sweep, and then rolling down so you get the exactly right choppy fade out through the delay pedals. That's the kinda stuff I love.

Grolschevik

NickWray wrote: »

I think the point he's making is that it would be a valuable asset to figure out all the possible sounds you can get out of your own technique before your playing becomes clouded by effects etc.

Just to clarify, I don't play blues (or indeed, classic rock), I have a large pedalboard that I rely on, and I use a high-gain valve channel switcher.

My point was that people like Gibbons (or Hendrix or whoever if you want) had to explore the limits of what they could do when developing their styles. Not only amp tone and settings, but use of the guitar's volume and tone pots, using fingers, pick or coin etc...

I think the learning experience you get when you have to do that in finding your sound is a much more grounded and organic one than simply pressing the next button on your ME50 to get the next tone...

I'm not knocking anything. I'm just saying that I feel that I would now be a better guitarist if I had learnt that way.

I used Blue Jean Blues as an example, because Gibbons does play amazingly soulfully. And it's that soulfulness (not the individual notes or licks he plays) that I feel I would be unable to emulate. And I reckon that's because he (and others like him, who were indeed pushing the boundaries at the time, El Pron) had to develop such techniques in order to get what they could out of a very limited setup.

We don't need to do that these days, and I feel that I personally have missed out...

Orando Broom

El Pr0n wrote: »

Either way the guitar is being played.


Re: the guitar-as-synth thing, I'm all for that. A pedal board is a system, not just a collection of pedals, in the same way a modular synth isn't just a collection of modules. Except with a pedal board, you have a guitar instead of VCOs.

Sometimes I get the impression from people that, as a guitarist with a big pedal board (or even just a pedal board with unconventional effects, like a ring modulator and 3 delays), I get looked down on by other 'traditional' guitarists. But in my mind, the 'traditional' guy playing 'licks' is getting stale, and I'm doing my best to think outside the box.

Massive +1 on effects having a feel too. I do a lot of 'violining' on my volume knob, and you get the feel for rolling the volume up enough to get that 'bite' from the distortion pedal, timing it so that the phaser is at the top of the sweep, and then rolling down so you get the exactly right choppy fade out through the delay pedals. That's the kinda stuff I love.

Three bands that you feel influenced how you think about your music.

Grolschevik

Sandvich wrote: »

When you're trying to emulate Stevie Ray Vaughan like most "feel" heavy players seem to, I hardly think you sound like yourself.

Stevie Ray Vaughan didn't even sound like himself!
I get no sense of soulfulness from his playing, compared with someone like, say, Rory Gallagher...

rcaz

Orando Broom wrote: »

Three bands that you feel influenced how you think about your music.

You want me to name them?

Autechre
Kraftwerk
Sonic Youth

These aren't my favourite bands, they're bands I REALLY like, and had a massive effect on my playing.

landsleaving

Playing with 'soul' has nothing to do with your equipment in my opinion, and everything to do with you. If you think lots of effects distracted you from improving your playing far enough, but for me having effects lets me put my own stamp on a tune, play about with it a bit, instead of just trying to copy exactly the sounds someone made years ago.

If you want to sound soulful, work on your fingering and try to use dynamics in your playing. If this is with or without effects it makes little difference.

Most people (me included) like that tube amp tone, but it's down to our musical taste being shaped by what we listen to. I listen to lots of other stuff too, and sometimes a solid state amp and a few effects is the sound I want. I still try to play as best I can, no amount of effects can hide a lack of talent. Trust me

Orando Broom

El Pr0n wrote: »

You want me to name them?

Autechre
Kraftwerk
Sonic Youth

These aren't my favourite bands, they're bands I REALLY like, and had a massive effect on my playing.

Interesting, the Sonic Youth and Kraftwerk dichotomy in particular.

Sandvich

Grolschevik wrote: »

Just to clarify, I don't play blues (or indeed, classic rock), I have a large pedalboard that I rely on, and I use a high-gain valve channel switcher.

My point was that people like Gibbons (or Hendrix or whoever if you want) had to explore the limits of what they could do when developing their styles. Not only amp tone and settings, but use of the guitar's volume and tone pots, using fingers, pick or coin etc...

I think the learning experience you get when you have to do that in finding your sound is a much more grounded and organic one than simply pressing the next button on your ME50 to get the next tone...

I'm not knocking anything. I'm just saying that I feel that I would now be a better guitarist if I had learnt that way.

I used Blue Jean Blues as an example, because Gibbons does play amazingly soulfully. And it's that soulfulness (not the individual notes or licks he plays) that I feel I would be unable to emulate. And I reckon that's because he (and others like him, who were indeed pushing the boundaries at the time, El Pron) had to develop such techniques in order to get what they could out of a very limited setup.

We don't need to do that these days, and I feel that I personally have missed out...

The problem is better guitarist is kind of subjective, and where you try and bring in an objective element, it starts to look doubtful because of the amount of guitarists that learn to play that way.

The ME50 isn't a particularly amazing effects device compared to a bunch of analogue stomps or something more high tech like the M9 anyway. It's okay.

rcaz

Grolschevik wrote: »

My point was that people like Gibbons (or Hendrix or whoever if you want) had to explore the limits of what they could do when developing their styles. Not only amp tone and settings, but use of the guitar's volume and tone pots, using fingers, pick or coin etc...

...

I used Blue Jean Blues as an example, because Gibbons does play amazingly soulfully. And it's that soulfulness (not the individual notes or licks he plays) that I feel I would be unable to emulate. And I reckon that's because he (and others like him, who were indeed pushing the boundaries at the time, El Pron) had to develop such techniques in order to get what they could out of a very limited setup.

Hang on, I never said they weren't pushing boundaries. In fact, I said they WERE pushing boundaries, and that they were great because of that. Now those boundaries are long gone, and we have to find new ones if we want to be on Gibbon's level.

Orando Broom wrote: »

Interesting, the Sonic Youth and Kraftwerk dichotomy in particular.

Well Kraftwerk invented a lot of the things that are commonplace in electronic music today. Without them, there would be no... Well, what would there be? And Sonic Youth's approach, that they were brave enough with their music to not feel like they needed any of the usual musical things. And they showed how important it is for rock musicians to listen and appreciate widely (the SYR records, for example). I'd put Schoenberg in this category too, probably even moreso, but I don't know enough about him to really say. The same idea of approaching music with the idea, "Why do we need any of this? We don't!".

I know Kraftwerk and Autechre aren't really directly applicable to guitar playing, but the ideas behind them... How can we ignore them and people like them?

darrenw5094

Some members posting on here are talking about music, which is heavily derived from effect pedals. The other members are talking about guitar playing/technique. Two totaly different things really.

The OP talks about Gibbons tone etc. That is talent from his fingers and soul. You can't buy that in a effect pedal. You can't even be taught that by a teacher. That comes from desire, practice and experience.

Plug your guitar straight into your valve amp and play yourself......with no effects. To be able to coax great music from your basic setup is very difficult.

The OP has a point. Some people should concentrate on practice rather than hunting specific gear to achieve tones. You do need a fair bit of practice to become a good guitar player.

I am not against effects, but don't write off SRV, Hendrix etc. because they are old news. They were more talented than are or ever will be.

rcaz

darrenw5094 wrote: »

They were more talented than are or ever will be.

You can't write people off like that.

They were very talented, yes, and we should learn from them, but we shouldn't rehash them. Which is what I think a lot of people do while learning 'feel'.

i57dwun4yb1pt8

NickWray wrote: »

player. This is what I do.
I've always preferred to keep it simple, guitarwise.

nice work

Fingers Mcginty

Grolschevik wrote: »

Stevie Ray Vaughan didn't even sound like himself!
I get no sense of soulfulness from his playing, ..

Grolschevik wrote: »

Stevie Ray Vaughan didn't even sound like himself!
I get no sense of soulfulness from his playing, PUKE PUKE PUKE


oh good jumpin fwoking Jesus with a capital G ...Are you for fookin' real???? you're messin' right?
Seriously this place used to be a fun cool spot to hang out as was the virtual Irish Pub when it first kicked off but alas not any more....
I bid ya'll farewell. *takes his cape and flies the **** out of this poxy instruments thread forever* Alios Toe Rags and Quim Sniffers Ha Ha
"'twas good while it lasted" but nae more. I now understand why all the old decent heads have left the nest. Time for rejuvenation or actually maybe full hard core evolution.

rcaz

Fingers Mcginty wrote: »

oh good jumpin fwoking Jesus with a capital G ...Are you for fookin' real???? you're messin' right?
Seriously this place used to be a fun cool spot to hang out as was the virtual Irish Pub when it first kicked off but alas not any more....
I bid ya'll farewell. *takes his cape and flies the **** out of this poxy instruments thread forever* Alios Toe Rags and Quim Sniffers Ha Ha
"'twas good while it lasted" but nae more. I now understand why all the old decent heads have left the nest. Time for rejuvenation or actually maybe full hard core evolution.

...So you're looking for a rejuvenation of the forum because we don't all follow the same tired old 'guitar heroes' from past generations? Explain that one to me.

darrenw5094

Fingers Mcginty wrote: »

Grolschevik wrote: »

Stevie Ray Vaughan didn't even sound like himself!
I get no sense of soulfulness from his playing, PUKE PUKE PUKE


oh good jumpin fwoking Jesus with a capital G ...Are you for fookin' real???? you're messin' right?
Seriously this place used to be a fun cool spot to hang out as was the virtual Irish Pub when it first kicked off but alas not any more....
I bid ya'll farewell. *takes his cape and flies the **** out of this poxy instruments thread forever* Alios Toe Rags and Quim Sniffers Ha Ha
"'twas good while it lasted" but nae more. I now understand why all the old decent heads have left the nest. Time for rejuvenation or actually maybe full hard core evolution.

SRV was a legend people. Anyone that can't sense soulfulness from SRV music should get their flippin' ears tested.

And i have just watched a few SRV dvd's.......i can confirm, that SRV DID sound like himself.............obviously.:)

Sandvich

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Some members posting on here are talking about music, which is heavily derived from effect pedals. The other members are talking about guitar playing/technique. Two totaly different things really.

The OP talks about Gibbons tone etc. That is talent from his fingers and soul. You can't buy that in a effect pedal. You can't even be taught that by a teacher. That comes from desire, practice and experience.

You can't make your guitar sound like a kazoo with desire, practice and experience.

Plug your guitar straight into your valve amp and play yourself......with no effects. To be able to coax great music from your basic setup is very difficult.

The OP has a point. Some people should concentrate on practice rather than hunting specific gear to achieve tones. You do need a fair bit of practice to become a good guitar player.

This is becoming really frustrating as you seem completely unwilling to see that other people have a different approach to the instrument.

Plugging into a Valve amp in of itself is an "effect". Valve amps give a specific range of tonal qualities. If you wanted to play pure, you'd plug your electric into a keyboard amp or powered monitors, and it'd sound ****. It's only because of the tone stack and frequency curve of the speaker that you can begin to get "good" guitar sounds.

So what you're really saying at the end of the day is; don't do things your day, do things my way. Everything you put after a guitar is an "effect" of one part. The "tube dynamics" thing has been done over and over again and nowadays there is a lot more you can do with your guitar, and I don't really think you've a right to say what kind of music people "should" be learning.

There are many sounds that you simply cannot create with a guitar going into a tube amp, that are not as fun to create on a synthesiser. You think you've uncovered some great enlightenment when in reality you're being a little arrogant and closed to other people's "soul" and "talent".

Sandvich

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Fingers Mcginty wrote: »

SRV was a legend people. Anyone that can't sense soulfulness from SRV music should get their flippin' ears tested.

And i have just watched a few SRV dvd's.......i can confirm, that SRV DID sound like himself.............obviously.:)

Not everyone who plays guitar has to look up to Steve Ray Vaughan, and the fact that he's pushed as such a role model is part of what makes me hate him. That and his "feel" was bastardised from a lot of black blues players.

Why does guitar always have to be looking back to the 60s and early 70s for everything?

I don't understand it. The instrument moved forward a lot during those eras; but now it's all you want to do that, go play a synth? Come on.

Making your guitar sound like something else entirely is FAR more Rock and Roll than copping Stevie Ray Vaughan's "feel".

http://www.box.net/shared/iboinmogfp

I had more fun creating this than learning any blues lick. Of course it's harder to fit that sort of stuff into a song, you're going to say, but that just shows there is talent involved then. That's the kind of thing I really need to learn - not how to play more like SRV. I like traditional guitar sounds and there's plenty of room for them in my music, but it's not really what my music is about.

darrenw5094

Sandvich wrote: »

You can't make your guitar sound like a kazoo with desire, practice and experience.

Why the feck would you want your guitar to sound like a Kazoo? Buy a fricken Kazoo.

After listening to that mess you call music, FOCUS ON PRACTICE for another couple of years.

Sandvich

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Why the feck would you want your guitar to sound like a Kazoo? Buy a fricken Kazoo.

After listening to that mess you call music, FOCUS ON PRACTICE for another couple of years.

I never called it music. It was dicking around with an effects pedal, but it's still more entertaining to me than listening to SRV solo.

I had more fun creating this than learning any blues lick. Of course it's harder to fit that sort of stuff into a song, you're going to say, but that just shows there is talent involved then. That's the kind of thing I really need to learn - not how to play more like SRV.

I don't think you even read my post. Focus on what practice anyway? Practice on sounding more like you? No thanks.

How would the "Practice" you're familiar with help me improve that clip out of interest? Drop the effects? But the clip is all effects! So in other words you're telling me my method of creating music is WRONG and yours is right. If I hear someone trying to be Kirk Hammet and failing, then I can tell him he needs to work on his chops. But how do you know what I'm trying to do? So how can you tell me to work on practice? A guitar is a plank of wood with some strings. There's no "should" about it except you "should" use it to do something you find interesting.

Personally I'm not really interested in hearing "The Feel" of such an obnoxiously closed minded musician. There are some people who create music entirely based on noises like the ones I made there. You're dismissing that kind of music and say, no, you should be learning to play mine.

If Jimi Hendrix was still alive; who's way of thinking do you think he'd be more interested in? Honestly?

I find it amusing that you take issue with me wanting my guitar to sound like a Kazoo - when the the fuzz pedals of your heroes were designed to emulate brass sections, synths, and violin like sustain, and the wah wah a similar effect on wind instruments. The point is it's still a guitar you're playing, you're just using it differently.

This is a blatant contradiction in your way of thinking and it shows that basically all it amounts to is 60s/70s = right, anything else = wrong.

Here's a piece of music I did make, the kind I'm looking to integrate guitar into since I rarely use it in the music I compose.

http://www.box.net/shared/2utisy9jp3

I'm curious as to how your practice would help me. Though the second part is influenced by Jeff Beck's Plan B, that was a bit on the purposely cheesy side, though "Jeff" is definitely my favourite album by him since unlike a lot of guitarists, he actually moved forward.

http://www.box.net/shared/5e23vbm8nl

http://www.box.net/shared/1h1y1buh0i

http://www.box.net/shared/hpfafacdtu

Here's more. Again you're making the mistake that everyone interested in playing guitar wants to play rock/blues.

rcaz

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Why the feck would you want your guitar to sound like a Kazoo? Buy a fricken Kazoo.

After listening to that mess you call music, FOCUS ON PRACTICE for another couple of years.

Are you really so far up yourself to say things like that about what other people want to do with their instruments? I'd be interested to hear what you have to say about the stuff I like to do.

What's wrong with wanting your guitar to sound like a kazoo or anything? There are a few guitar parts in my bands' songs where I like to take away from my tone all the bits that sound like a guitar. Filter out most of the low and mids with an envelope filter, shift it up an octave, distort it, and ring modulate it. Use a heavy reverse delay and just play glissandos into it. Make glitchy loops. Now why shouldn't I be doing that?

I get a kick out of that first clip you posted, Sandvich. I love coming up with weird sounds like that, and I know it's really hard to put a song around an odd sound like that. But figuring out how to make it work in context is the most exciting part of guitar for me.

Maybe a lot of this comes from the fact that I have no interest learning other people's guitar parts, except the ones I'll learn from (a Nels Cline solo or Tom Verlaine or something). Most of the stuff I like to 'learn off' isn't rock guitar. I've been learning a few Miles Davis and John Coltrane parts. Now THAT's interesting.

Sandvich

Personally I'd rather learn from someone less exposed than Daniel Ash than Billy Gibbons.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6s8IeRlG1L8

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-VyWNDxQQxM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y2WiGBS6wNY

Now that was a guy that knew how to make sounds.

Darren et all would do well to read some interviews with Danny Ash actually.

landsleaving

Sandvich wrote: »

http://www.box.net/shared/2utisy9jp3

I liked that a lot, sounded great and clearly it takes talent to make a tune like that.

Sandvich

landsleaving wrote: »

I liked that a lot, sounded great and clearly it takes talent to make a tune like that.

Thank you I wanted to make something a bit different to most of these chiptunes in the recent craze.

Also I think we should force Darren to sit through one of my practice sessions since he's so gone on the idea

http://www.box.net/shared/kpcbd3vcfr

I've been particularly out of practice on my Tele lately due to college!

darrenw5094

Sandvich wrote: »

Thank you I wanted to make something a bit different to most of these chiptunes in the recent craze.

Also I think we should force Darren to sit through one of my practice sessions since he's so gone on the idea

http://www.box.net/shared/kpcbd3vcfr

I've been particularly out of practice on my Tele lately due to college!

Lol.

Grolschevik

Fingers Mcginty wrote: »

Grolschevik wrote: »

Stevie Ray Vaughan didn't even sound like himself!
I get no sense of soulfulness from his playing, PUKE PUKE PUKE


oh good jumpin fwoking Jesus with a capital G ...Are you for fookin' real???? you're messin' right?
Seriously this place used to be a fun cool spot to hang out as was the virtual Irish Pub when it first kicked off but alas not any more....
I bid ya'll farewell. *takes his cape and flies the **** out of this poxy instruments thread forever* Alios Toe Rags and Quim Sniffers Ha Ha
"'twas good while it lasted" but nae more. I now understand why all the old decent heads have left the nest. Time for rejuvenation or actually maybe full hard core evolution.

darrenw5094 wrote: »

Fingers Mcginty wrote: »

SRV was a legend people. Anyone that can't sense soulfulness from SRV music should get their flippin' ears tested.

And i have just watched a few SRV dvd's.......i can confirm, that SRV DID sound like himself.............obviously.:)

Nope! I'm serious. Never got him. Hendrix-derivative cliched bar-room blues. Actually gives blues a bad name, as we can see here today!:)

But that's why we have more than one style of music and more than one respected exponent of each of those styles...

Sandvich wrote: »

This is becoming really frustrating as you seem completely unwilling to see that other people have a different approach to the instrument.

But, in all fairness, you're guilty of that yourself...

Sandvich wrote: »

basically all it amounts to is 60s/70s = right, anything else = wrong.

Well I for one am not saying it. Though I am guilty of thinking that some people's approach to playing their instrument is akin to being a whizz in Photoshop but not being able to take a picture. But, different purposes, different skills...

My original post was actually about the way in which the different gear we develop our unique styles on then influences what that style becomes.

I'm not knocking any other approach. My basic, stripped down point is: I didn't get the opportunity to learn the basics of my style on a certain type of gear. And hence I'm wondering how my playing would be different today if I had.

I resent the repeated implications that I just want to play cliched blues "licks" (and what's with the repeated putting it in inverted commas?) and wear a silly hat and cowboy boots.

Gibbons is actually a good example of what we're all really talking about. He pushed the boundaries of his own guitar tone with the use of electronic effects in the late '70s and early '80s. Granted, he was no Robert Fripp, but he wasn't content just to stick to his early approach to tone.

landsleaving

darrenw5094 wrote: »

After listening to that mess you call music, FOCUS ON PRACTICE for another couple of years.

I find practicing is easier if it's fun. Sometimes making mad sounds keeps you playing for longer, just to see what you can come up with, or how best to make it sound like you're underwater. Using effects, and taking up electric guitar in general, moved me away from the basics to playing more complex things I couldn;t do on an acoustic, mainly because of the sounds I could make. Because I, and it's probably the same for many here, found it exciting to experiment with effects and odd sounds, I practiced more.

I'd have never learned some songs, which I can play with my eyes closed and jumping up and down now, if I couldn't play it blues style one day, then in a totally different way the next. It made the repetition more interesting for me, which tends to get to me since I mainly play and sing, so lead stuff isn't quite as enjoyable as just belting out some chords and howling.

It takes a great guitarist to make effects sound great imo, you can't hide a lack of skill. It may not be your thing, but it still takes skill and talent to play with a lot of effects and make it sound right. In fact there's so many more things to worry about that it can be harder at times.

Sandvich

Andy Summers was a great effects player. If you listen to his stuff the effects weren't as subtle as they first seem, he just integrated them so well and timed his playing with the modulation.

Paolo_M

Sandvich wrote: »

Andy Summers was a great effects player. If you listen to his stuff the effects weren't as subtle as they first seem, he just integrated them so well and timed his playing with the modulation.

His technique and sense of rhythm were sublime.
His us of palm muting for picked rhythm parts produced a unique sound, his use of raggae style stabs blended with punk rhtyhms.
He had a pretty unique pick attack and could coax pinched harmoniques from a sqeaky clean amp.
He had an understated sense of phrasing which sat perfectly in the context of the music.
For me his playing is quite like John Frusciante in the sense of knowing when to shut the f*ck up.

He would sound like Andy Summers on an acoustic.

He is actually a poster boy for how effects can enhance an already excellent technique.

Orando Broom

Sandvich wrote: »

Andy Summers was a great effects player. If you listen to his stuff the effects weren't as subtle as they first seem, he just integrated them so well and timed his playing with the modulation.

Andy Summers was a great guitarist first and foremost. There is a good reason you don't see as much Police stuff being covered given the popularity of their songs.

Keyzer

Grolschevik wrote: »

Main point? Everyone should learn to play on a vintage Champ and not be allowed effects, channel switching, or modelling til they're good and ready!

That's complete and utter nonsense.

That's like saying everyone should learn to drive in a Model T Ford or everyone should learn to cook using just a fire and some basic ingredients.

People learn to play whatever way they want to play with whatever good or bad equipment they want to use.

Keyzer

That's complete and utter nonsense.

That's like saying everyone should learn to drive in a Model T Ford or everyone should learn to cook using just a fire and some basic ingredients.

People learn to play whatever way they want to play with whatever good or bad equipment they want to use.

darrenw5094

Paolo_M wrote: »

His technique and sense of rhythm were sublime.
His us of palm muting for picked rhythm parts produced a unique sound, his use of raggae style stabs blended with punk rhtyhms.
He had a pretty unique pick attack and could coax pinched harmoniques from a sqeaky clean amp.
He had an understated sense of phrasing which sat perfectly in the context of the music.
For me his playing is quite like John Frusciante in the sense of knowing when to shut the f*ck up.

He would sound like Andy Summers on an acoustic.

He is actually a poster boy for how effects can enhance an already excellent technique.

Correct. If you don't have the technique etc., effects won't help you all that much, you would still be exposed. Phrasing, timing etc. need a lot of time and effort to achieve. The main point here earlier, was to pratice those things on a small amp and have a steady base to work with. If you have better technique etc., your final product will also be much better.

But if some guys don't bother and go straight into effects, then go for it.

Grolschevik

Sandvich, interesting sound clips. You do what you do well. It's not what I choose to do, but sure there's space for all of us. I imagine on electronica forums or the like you get people accusing you of being too hung up on the early halcyon days of the late '70s and early '80s... but sure f*ck 'em!

Anyway, the Bloodhound Gang manage to successfully integrate such sounds into their otherwise mindless (but very funny) frat rock.

And your first clip, of you just messing around with a pedal, actually really reminded me of Jimmy Page in the late '60s with his theremin...

Just as a matter of interest, has anyone listened to 'Blue Jean Blues' to remind themselves what I was originally talking about?

Grolschevik

Keyzer wrote: »

That's complete and utter nonsense.

That's like saying everyone should learn to drive in a Model T Ford or everyone should learn to cook using just a fire and some basic ingredients.

People learn to play whatever way they want to play with whatever good or bad equipment they want to use.

Throwaway humorous comment. Don't worry about it... Though it's usually better to learn to drive in a relatively simple car than in a Lambourghini.