Anti-Americanism in Ireland

Hazys

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

The United States of America is a (albeit very large) country that´s part of a vast continent. United States of America is a country, not a continent. North America includes Canada and South/Central America, the US and Canada can be counted as one continent.

I know America is not a continent, i was making a point that it was just as vast in cultural differences as the continent of Europe and that the country as a whole can't be classifed as one entity.

The Corinthian

Clawdeeus wrote: »

Just recently I was having a conversation with my friend and he started to try and convince me that Americans were the most stupid people on Earth.

As has been pointed out, there are two forms of 'anti-Americanism' - political and cultural.

It is actually possible to be one and not the other; for example it is interesting to note that one of the greatest patrons of transatlanticism (and thus certainly not politically 'anti-American') Harold Macmillan, made an impassioned speech to the UK parliament arguing that they should adopt the role of junior partner with regard to the US when he suggested they should "be the wise Greeks to the bumptious Romans". So while suggesting a positive relationship with the US, he also belittled them culturally as being oafish.

Culturally, Europeans have been dismissive of the Americans for a long time. There is some good reason for this in that a sizable proportion of the US population are significantly more provincial than your average European. However this is a generalization and ignores the cultural contributions of the US to the World, which even if by a minority, cannot be ignored.

It's arguable though that this could be considered 'anti-Americanism' though. Condensation, certainly. Elitism, quite likely. However it is more akin to the attitude of one to a lovable, wealthy, but largely coarse and vulgar cousin. As such, its impact has always been limited.

Politically, is another matter. Traditionally, this was largely a communism versus capitalism thing. Up until the last decade, political 'anti-Americanism' was really something you tended to find in far-left groups; on college campuses, trade unions and leftist political parties. Again, its impact was very limited.

Then the US invaded Iraq in 2003. European public and political opinion was heavily against this war, yet it was roughly, and quite arrogantly, ignored. It was this realization that we are not the same, that gave birth to modern 'anti-Americanism' from the fringes to a popular mass sentiment.

It has resulted in the US losing the hearts and minds of the non-American West, causing us to be more suspicious, cynical and less trusting of US motivations and has in turn drawn from the earlier less negative forms of 'anti-Americanism'.

In short, 'anti-Americanism' today is the legacy of the second Bush administration and the US neo-conservative movement. It is the price that America has been left to pay for their hubris.

Eve_Dublin

Hazys wrote: »

I know America is not a continent, i was making a point that it was just as vast in cultural differences as the continent of Europe and that the country as a whole can't be classifed as one entity.

Hazys wrote: »

The United States of America is a vast continent (not country) of over 300 million people who live in totally different climates, economies, speak different languages, are of different races, follow different religions, etc. Its like comparing Ireland to Turkey.

Sorry I got confused because you did state originally that it was.

Hazys

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

Sorry I got confused because you did state originally that it was.

Fair enough, no worries, i relise i wasn't that clear in my orginal post

Greyfox

Hazys wrote: »

i was making a point that it was just as vast in cultural differences as the continent of Europe

No it's not!

Hazys

Greyfox wrote: »

No it's not!

Why not? Another great contribution.

There are more races and people from different countries (1st/2nd gen) than there are in Europe with sizable populations.

There as many different climates in the US as there is in Europe.

There as many different economies in the US as there is in Europe.

etc.


It depends how you define all of them, Europe may have more languages, while the US may have more races, etc but you cannot define one america because the country is so vastly different from one state to another, just like Europe.

AARRRGH

Hazys wrote: »

Why not? Another great contribution.

There are more races and people from different countries (1st/2nd gen) than there are in Europe with sizable populations.

There as many different climates in the US as there is in Europe.

There as many different economies in the US as there is in Europe.

etc.

It depends how you define all of them, Europe may have more languages, while the US may have more races, etc but you cannot define one america because the country is so vastly different from one state to another, just like Europe.

We all understand and agree with the point you are trying to make (not all Americans are the same, obviously) but IN GENERAL the average American knows little about the world when compared to the average European, IN GENERAL the average American gets their information from their unbelievably biased (and in my opinion, brain-dead) media whereas the average European has access to a much more balanced media (e.g. compare how the latest Israeli action is being presented by the media is the US and Europe), and IN GENERAL Americans tend to be fatter than the average European.

Yes, the US is a big country, but you're closing your mind if you think there are no common traits throughout the country. Just like there are common traits throughout Europe.

Eve_Dublin

I dunno, I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact that Americans aren´t afraid to vocalise their opinions on most things and are bound to get it wrong on occasion whereas Europeans in general would be afraid of looking stupid. Americans are incapable of getting embarrassed in my experience. They´ve no problem looking stupid but I think Europeans would rather pretend they know what they´re talking about than come across as dumb or ignorant. Europeans tend to have an intellectual snobbery that we can´t really justify. We like to think we´re more intellectual, cultured and enlightened just because we were born and raised here. Americans don´t possess this trait in my experience.

AARRRGH

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I dunno, I believe a lot of it has to do with the fact that Americans aren´t afraid to vocalise their opinions on most things and are bound to get it wrong on occasion whereas Europeans in general would be afraid of looking stupid. Americans are incapable of getting embarrassed in my experience. They´ve no problem looking stupid but I think Europeans would rather pretend they know what they´re talking about than come across as dumb or ignorant. Europeans tend to have an intellectual snobbery that we can´t really justify. We like to think we´re more intellectual, cultured and enlightened just because we were born and raised here. Americans don´t possess this trait in my experience.

Well, all you have to do is look at the Iraq invasion. 75% of Americans thought it was a good idea at the time, whereas I don't think I met a single European who agreed with it.

I really don't think this is because Europeans don't express their opinion; I believe it is because the average American a) doesn't really know much about the world outside the US, and b) doesn't question their biased media.

macdragon76

liah wrote: »

That's hardly respecting their cultural background, most of them just do it because they think Paddy's day is awesome and they like Guinness.

The average American calls Paddy's day as "Patties" Day!! Grr!

Yes, I am one of those who thinks the same! I blame dumb vacant American TV for the JEdward generation of kids!

These kids can't think for themselves outside of Adidas, Nike or McDonalds. Everything that comes out of their mouth is "its Like, So... and stuff!" "whatever"

Eve_Dublin

AARRRGH wrote: »

Well, all you have to do is look at the Iraq invasion. 75% of Americans thought it was a good idea at the time, whereas I don't think I met a single European who agreed with it.

I really don't think this is because Europeans don't express their opinion; I believe it is because the average American a) doesn't really know much about the world outside the US, and b) doesn't question their biased media.

I wonder how many Irish could name all the capitals of the new Eastern European EU members.

Eve_Dublin

macdragon76 wrote: »

The average American calls Paddy's day as "Patties" Day!! Grr!

Yes, I am one of those who thinks the same! I blame dumb vacant American TV for the JEdward generation of kids!

These kids can't think for themselves outside of Adidas, Nike or McDonalds. Everything that comes out of their mouth is "its Like, So... and stuff!" "whatever"

Well were even more dumb for lapping it up.

AARRRGH

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

I wonder how many Irish could name all the capitals of the new Eastern European EU members.

I agree most Irish people couldn't name all the capitals of the new Eastern European EU members, but I reckon most Americans couldn't point out Puerto Rico on a map, nevermind Iraq!

Eve_Dublin

AARRRGH wrote: »

Well, all you have to do is look at the Iraq invasion. 75% of Americans thought it was a good idea at the time, whereas I don't think I met a single European who agreed with it.

I really don't think this is because Europeans don't express their opinion; I believe it is because the average American a) doesn't really know much about the world outside the US, and b) doesn't question their biased media.

I don´t disagree with you that American news is ridiculously biased and but to be honest, I think most Europeans were "anti-invasion" but in reality, didn´t know the ins and outs of the situation and didn´t actually care. We all had an opinion we regurgitated from what we picked up from the news because it was fashionable at the time but we didn´t actually think for ourselves. I´m talking generally here.

Eve_Dublin

AARRRGH wrote: »

I agree most Irish people couldn't name all the capitals of the new Eastern European EU members, but I reckon most Americans couldn't point out Puerto Rico on a map, nevermind Iraq!

Okay but do you reckon if most Irish people were given a blank outline of a map of Europe that they could fill in ALL the countries on that map? Why is our ignorance more acceptable?

Now I´m not disagreeing with you completely...some of the ignorance I´ve come across in the States is like nothing I´ve encountered anywhere else (see my story about the Blarney leprechaun) but I genuinely think it´s down to their inability to be shy or embarrassed and their confidence in vocalising EVERYTHING that passes through their minds.

Valmont

"Most of them" and "They all are".

Any sentence about Americans starting with these words is always going to be a stupid generalisation. I find it hard to believe that people still don't realise that you can't accurately attribute certain arbitrary characteristics to three hundred million people. Demonstrable ignorance of the highest order if you ask me. Then again, I often hear people say they "hate the French". Perhaps the concept of an individual is on its way out.

AARRRGH

Valmont wrote: »

"Most of them" and "They all are".

Any sentence about Americans starting with these words is always going to be a stupid generalisation. I find it hard to believe that people still don't realise that you can't accurately attribute certain arbitrary characteristics to three hundred million people. Demonstrable ignorance of the highest order if you ask me. Then again, I often hear people say they "hate the French". Perhaps the concept of an individual is on its way out.

Hang on. Stereotypes exist for a reason.

If someone said to me "you Irish drink too much" I would agree with him in general terms. Just like if someone said "you French eat loads of cheese", I would also agree.

The same logic applies to Americans. In general their ancestors came from Europe. In general they have terrible news media. In general they have a serious obesity problem. In general they don't have a clue about the world outside America.

Just like in general Europeans think Americans are stupid. In general Europeans think GW Bush is a moron. In general Europeans are more fashion conscious. Etc.

No one thinks generalistions apply to absolutely everyone.

HavingCrack

Am I the only one who thinks this thread is gone completely off the OP???

To be honest I've come across very little overt anti-Americanism in Ireland (far less than anti-British feeling) with the exception of foreign policy. There s little criticism of culture.

Also as other boardsies have mention attempting to compare people from New York, Virginia, Texas, Montana and California is a pointless exercise. They're so different that its the equivilent of saying all Europeans love pizza (cause Italy is in Europe therefore all of Europe is the same). Not a great metaphor I'll admit but I'm sure you get my point.

The only thing I disliked about America (visited it 5 times ) is the dominance of religion in public life there. It's a bit scary in my opinion.

royston_vasey

The Corinthian wrote: »

Politically, is another matter. Traditionally, this was largely a communism versus capitalism thing. Up until the last decade, political 'anti-Americanism' was really something you tended to find in far-left groups; on college campuses, trade unions and leftist political parties. Again, its impact was very limited.

Then the US invaded Iraq in 2003. European public and political opinion was heavily against this war, yet it was roughly, and quite arrogantly, ignored. It was this realization that we are not the same, that gave birth to modern 'anti-Americanism' from the fringes to a popular mass sentiment.

It has resulted in the US losing the hearts and minds of the non-American West, causing us to be more suspicious, cynical and less trusting of US motivations and has in turn drawn from the earlier less negative forms of 'anti-Americanism'.

In short, 'anti-Americanism' today is the legacy of the second Bush administration and the US neo-conservative movement. It is the price that America has been left to pay for their hubris.

America has always fostered the idea of an enemy in order to deflect attention away from the actions of the right wing conservates that essentially run the country.

As stated communism was "the fear" for decades and has now been replaced by the "axis of evil". Who supported and armed Saddam? The British and Americans when they were trying to oust the Ayatollah from Iran and subsequently armed Saddam in his war against Iran.

Who armed the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden? The British and the Americans when they were fighting the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.

When Bush referred to the "axis of evil" was he talking about their arms or their refusal to submit to the needs and whims of the oil companies to whom he was and is so heavily indebited to? Just look at what is happening off the coast of America at present

Valmont

AARRRGH wrote: »

Hang on. Stereotypes exist for a reason.

You'll have to explain what you mean by "in general". Do you mean most? A few? Some? How many? More than here? The term itself is so ambiguous it shows how useless these stereotypes are as descriptive tools. I just don't see the point in indulging in such generalities.

AARRRGH wrote: »

In general Europeans are more fashion conscious.

I know some Americans who would disagree but it exists for a reason, right? Your comments do more for revealing your own prejudices rather than highlighting the veracity of American stereotypes.

AARRRGH wrote: »

but I reckon most Americans couldn't point out Puerto Rico on a map, nevermind Iraq!

The Corinthian

royston_vasey wrote: »

America has always fostered the idea of an enemy in order to deflect attention away from the actions of the right wing conservates that essentially run the country.

You'll find that historically this is not unusual in liberal democracies - the UK and France had a similar relationship for centuries, supplanted only by Germany in the early twentieth century. Islam and/or the Turks were the big enemy in the middle ages and Renaissance, as another example.

As stated communism was "the fear" for decades and has now been replaced by the "axis of evil". Who supported and armed Saddam? The British and Americans when they were trying to oust the Ayatollah from Iran and subsequently armed Saddam in his war against Iran.

Who armed the Taliban and Osama Bin Laden? The British and the Americans when they were fighting the Russian occupation of Afghanistan.

When Bush referred to the "axis of evil" was he talking about their arms or their refusal to submit to the needs and whims of the oil companies to whom he was and is so heavily indebited to? Just look at what is happening off the coast of America at present

OK, so America (and the UK) practice Realpolitik - hardly alone in this are they? The USSR (and now Russia) did (and does) so, as does China, as does France, as did Cuba (when it still had money) as does pretty much any nation that seeks international influence. Germany, Spain and Italy also engage in this - although in more subtle ways than the above.

My point was that this practice of Realpolitik by the US was largely only a problem for leftists (who would also overlook similar behavior by communist regimes) up until 2003. The bulk of public opinion in the non-US West was more than happy to turn a blind eye, because the US served their interests.

What changed this was not that the US was acting amorally, but that the non-US West decided that it was no longer acting amorally in their interests.

Permabear

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AARRRGH

Valmont wrote: »

You'll have to explain what you mean by "in general". Do you mean most? A few? Some? How many? More than here?

In the context of this thread it would mean "more than here".

donegalfella wrote: »

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Yes, yes I do. I know you're trying to be PC, but come on, it's obvious you don't really believe the things you are saying.

Six out of 10 young Americans cannot find Iraq on a map

Survey: Americans lost on the map

The survey, carried out in December 2005, also found fewer than three in 10 think it is important to know the locations of countries in the news; only 14 per cent believe another language is a necessary skill; 47 per cent could not find India on a map and 75 per cent could not locate Israel.

donegalfella wrote:

The most widely circulated newspapers in the USA are the Wall Street Journal, USA Today, the New York Times, the LA Times, and the Washington Post. Here in Ireland, top-selling papers include the Irish Independent, the Irish Times, and the Irish Daily Sun. I'll leave it to you to figure out which are generally the more brain-dead.

Sorry I was talking about television/radio. The US has nothing like the BBC or RTE, i.e. supposedly unbiased media.

donegalfella wrote:

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Very selective statistics there (overweight rather than obese).

Three times more obese people in the US when compared to Ireland

Academic paper showing people from the US do a lot less physical activity and are a lot more obese than people from other counties

The data speaks for itself -- the US has far more obese people than any other country.

For the record, I am not anti-American. I am just pointing there is a reason sterotypes exist.

Permabear

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prinz

donegalfella wrote: »

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I wouldn't call any Americans I have met any more ignorant than anyone else, but I would definitely say, in my personal experience they have a unique ability not to care if they are ignorant or not.

Again, this is personal experience but amongst the Americans I have come across, many have been highly intelligent, articulate, well travelled etc, but when it comes to something that would be considered basic general knowledge they can be extremely uninformed and have no hint of shame or willlingness to accept their own weakness in that area.

Personal experiences would give me many examples such as, repeatedly being asked when I started to learn English, do you have TV/internet etc in Ireland? I have even been sat at a table with a high-school English teacher from Chicago who had never read a Shakespeare work and on top of that had never even heard of Oscar Wilde. This was a highly educated American who is now living in Germany. I questioned her on this and her reply could basically be summed up as 'we have all the authors we need in America so I never needed to do any work on foreign authors etc' and that was the end of that conversation.

Permabear

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prinz

donegalfella wrote: »

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Absolutely agree.

donegalfella wrote: »

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I didn't want to imply that, it was rather the response that was more shocking coming from an educated, well travelled person i.e. 'we have everything we need right here in the US'. That attitude seems to recur in Americans a lot I have found. Some to a small degree others to a huge degree.

Permabear

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Ash.J.Williams

prinz wrote: »

I wouldn't call any Americans I have met any more ignorant than anyone else, but I would definitely say, in my personal experience they have a unique ability not to care if they are ignorant or not.

Again, this is personal experience but amongst the Americans I have come across, many have been highly intelligent, articulate, well travelled etc, but when it comes to something that would be considered basic general knowledge they can be extremely uninformed and have no hint of shame or willlingness to accept their own weakness in that area.

Personal experiences would give me many examples such as, repeatedly being asked when I started to learn English, do you have TV/internet etc in Ireland? I have even been sat at a table with a high-school English teacher from Chicago who had never read a Shakespeare work and on top of that had never even heard of Oscar Wilde. This was a highly educated American who is now living in Germany. I questioned her on this and her reply could basically be summed up as 'we have all the authors we need in America so I never needed to do any work on foreign authors etc' and that was the end of that conversation.

ah man....Our internet is the worst in the developed world!!

irishh_bob

donegalfella wrote: »

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the person prinz was refering to ( who never heard of wilde ) was a college lecturer , not vicky pollard

The Corinthian

prinz wrote: »

I didn't want to imply that, it was rather the response that was more shocking coming from an educated, well travelled person i.e. 'we have everything we need right here in the US'. That attitude seems to recur in Americans a lot I have found. Some to a small degree others to a huge degree.

I do think this is true of a lot of American culture, in that it is America-centric to the point of neigh provincialism. Much of it is down to their level of near jingoistic patriotism, which is important in a country that does not have millenia of identity to draw from.

Another factor is that many Americans never really go beyond their home towns or states (I believe the number who have passports to be a fraction of the population), which further adds to this sense of provincialism - even where it comes to other parts of the US.

I think the thing to remember is that despite our superficial familiarity with American culture due to Hollywood and television, shared language and diaspora, the USA is ultimately a foreign country. In many respects we are closer to a Frenchman or Italian than an American culturally, and American attitudes are sometimes quite alien to us.

I think the failed expectation that they should be more like us probably gives rise to some of these prejudices.

Permabear

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The Corinthian

donegalfella wrote: »

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Food for thought.

Even if they don't, which I very much doubt, many American states are larger than many European countries. Ireland is about the size of Maine, and England is the same size as Alamaba. Texas is bigger than France. :pac:

Sudan is the largest country in Africa, much the same size as Western Europe, but it is also largely desert - so I don't think size alone really counts for a lot as an indicator of cultural variety, and that is what I was discussing.

TBH, whatever the reasons, historically Americans are more inward looking, isolationist and provincial in their outlook - one of the ironies of the twentieth century. That's not a bad thing - it's their culture after all, not ours. And it is when we judge their culture by our own values that we get these prejudices.

Permabear

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boboirl

Clawdeeus wrote: »

Just recently I was having a conversation with my friend and he started to try and convince me that Americans were the most stupid people on Earth. He is not my only friend to hold the view, as later in the night one friend said "I hope the US tries to invade North korea and get their heads kicked in" and another "everything bad that happens in the world can be traced back to the US" (and thats a direct quote, no lie).
I didnt bother arguing, there really was no point but it got me to thinking. Its not the first time I heard the sentiment, even on the radio and certainly on boards.ie American bashing seems the norm. Notice I said American, not America, because it seems to have taken a very personal bent for people; its not a dislike of the nation, but of the people it produces, and the prejudices seem almost impervious to any evidence to the contrary. The fact most top universities are in the US is ignored or explained away by those who regard its people as "stupid", as are any technilogical advancement developed there. Even acts of charity are derided; the US response to Haitis earthquake being a case in point (although that is admittedly criticised by very politicised groups). Any evidence that supports this view is cherrypicked, and people dont even seem to notice they are doing it.
There are very few things people can say about America thats not at least partially true, but obviously this is more complex and deeper than just an observation by people. What do you think causes this reaction in Ireland? Is it merely blaming the "big dog in the yard"? Its products/culture? Its foreign policy? Or something else?

One thing you can ask such people is "Have you actually been there?" That usually shuts them up

boboirl

I would also say that I've heard people mention in a bad way about a lot of people having the American flag in the garden, or in a bedroom window etc

I don't see the problem here... they are a very patriotic people, which I think is very admirable.

The Corinthian

donegalfella wrote: »

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Quite possibly, but even then the percentage American passport holders dwarfs the percentage of passport holders in Europe (certainly pre-Schengen).

Looking at the Western world, at least, you'd be hard-pressed to find a culture more inward-looking, isolationist, and provincial than Ireland's during the twentieth century. So, it some senses, it is our culture.

I'd agree, which is why the rest of Europe saw us as lovable but ill-educated peasants. That has certainly changed. Apart from our elected representatives anyway.

The other obvious point here is that you can't compare New York City with rural Alabama and say that both are equally isolationist and provincial. The latter clearly is; the former, just as clearly, is not. So when we talk about "Americans," who exactly are we talking about?

I actually cited that somewhere in this thread. America is not a homogeneous culture, even if it is more so relatively speaking than Europe.

Ultimately though, citing the provincialism in much of American culture is really only one of multiple factors that differentiate American culture from ours. It is this difference, combined with the illusion that we are the same that causes us to belittle them as we judge them by our standards. And even this attitude is only one factor in modern anti-Americanism, which also has political motivators.

And before one suggests that this is all down to Europe being jealous of US power and success, I would remind them that such a sense of cultural superiority predates the twentieth century, and Europeans were just as condescending back when the British were burning down the White House in 1814.

If a person criticises any other country its just their opinion.

If a person criticises the States, its anti-Americanism.

It's just the way things have gone. Spin words are the norm now often quite misleading in how they're to be understood. Terrorism now includes many more definitions that there were ten years previously. Anti-Americanism is the same.

Clawdeeus

Deleted User wrote: »

If a person criticises any other country its just their opinion.

If a person criticises the States, its anti-Americanism.

It's just the way things have gone. Spin words are the norm now often quite misleading in how they're to be understood. Terrorism now includes many more definitions that there were ten years previously. Anti-Americanism is the same.

I would disagree; there is a very big difference between "The Iraq war was a dumb idea" and "all Americans are dumb".

Basically your misunderstanding the concept. No one ever said criticizing a countrys policy implies you have it in for the populace, an instant dismissal of most things American is a prejudice.

Terrorism's definition has not changed, I think its just been applied to alot of things it should not have been.

Clawdeeus

Clawdeeus wrote: »

I would disagree; there is a very big difference between "The Iraq war was a dumb idea" and "all Americans are dumb".

Really? Because stereotypes and national opinions are nothing new. The Germans have plenty to say about the French, The French about the Germans, the British about the continent, the Italians about the Austrians. Its not anti anything. Its just a stereotypical opinion about a nationality.

The term Anti-Americanism seeks to put them in the victim role. As if they were anything different to the opinions people have about other nationalities. Notice how the term took on new meaning when the Iraq invasion occurred? Suddenly any criticism was termed as anti-american.

And its nothing particularly new. Peace demonstrators against the Vietnam war within the US were often called anti-American :rolleyes:.

Basically your misunderstanding the concept. No one ever said criticizing a countrys policy implies you have it in for the populace, an instant dismissal of most things American is a prejudice.

Maybe its you thats misunderstanding the concept? You've dismissed my pov. Does that mean that you're anti-klaz? Anti-Americanism might be a hatred of all things American. Many people in the M.East are anti-american and proud to be so. But then they feel that hatred is warranted.

My dismissing the supposed bastion of freedom routine, the american legal system, their education system, the levels of corruption, etc these are not anti-american. Their just opinions on another country and its people.

Terrorism's definition has not changed, I think its just been applied to alot of things it should not have been.

Which changes the definition since ultimately A definition is what people perceive the meaning to be. Do a search for terrorism in 20 dictionaries published over the last ten years and you'll get different interpretations depending on the publisher. Which is a reflection of the perception of the word and how such words change over time.

Clawdeeus

Deleted User wrote: »

Really? Because stereotypes and national opinions are nothing new. The Germans have plenty to say about the French, The French about the Germans, the British about the continent, the Italians about the Austrians. Its not anti anything. Its just a stereotypical opinion about a nationality.

The term Anti-Americanism seeks to put them in the victim role. As if they were anything different to the opinions people have about other nationalities. Notice how the term took on new meaning when the Iraq invasion occurred? Suddenly any criticism was termed as anti-american.

And its nothing particularly new. Peace demonstrators against the Vietnam war within the US were often called anti-American :rolleyes:.



Maybe its you thats misunderstanding the concept? You've dismissed my pov. Does that mean that you're anti-klaz? Anti-Americanism might be a hatred of all things American. Many people in the M.East are anti-american and proud to be so. But then they feel that hatred is warranted.

My dismissing the supposed bastion of freedom routine, the american legal system, their education system, the levels of corruption, etc these are not anti-american. Their just opinions on another country and its people.



Which changes the definition since ultimately A definition is what people perceive the meaning to be. Do a search for terrorism in 20 dictionaries published over the last ten years and you'll get different interpretations depending on the publisher. Which is a reflection of the perception of the word and how such words change over time.

It is a spectrum; running from harmless generalisations too outright prejudice, just like any stereotypes of national image. Just because they exist in the weaker form, does not mean they do not exist in the more extreme. Anecdotally I have seen it many times myself, and Im sure so have alot of other people.

Individual criticisms of policy is not Anti-Americanism, and anyone who says it is is wrong.

I'm sure everyone who hates any group/ country/ religion feels their hatred is warranted. I don't get your point.

Yes, if you dislike all those things on their own merits, that is not Anti-Americanism. Im sure their are plenty of patriots in America who would criticise all those aspects of their country, amoungst other things. It is when your views become more personal that I believe it slips into Anti-Americanism. Again, there may not be a "line" that one crosses, and is then branded Anti-American, rather a spectrum.

Are you denying it exists, or just annoyed that it used when it should not be?

Yes, I dont know what I was thinking with that terrorism comment probably wasnt Its also snobery on my part; thinking my definition is the "correct" one. The idea of when words change meaning, and what the definition of terrorism is would be good threads on their own. But just to stay on topic:

Just because a concept is difficult to define/many people have a different idea what consitutes terrorism/Anti-Americanism does not mean neither exist or neither concept holds any merit.

You have lost me. Perhaps its because its late and I've had two beers, or perhaps its just the format of your reply, but I can't figure out if you're agreeing or not.

Clawdeeus

Ha! Im thinking a bit of both, Ill repost tomorrow, saying what points Im addressing. Sorry bout that

PeterIanStaker

I think, to be honest, Ireland and America have a great deal in common. . . . . . . both governed by Civil War politics and full of religious loonies.

vicecreamsundae

i'm all for political criticism of america and it's policies, but i'm soo tired of hearing people make those "americans are stupid" comments, and in my experience it's only said by people who are in no position to be calling anyone stupid!

i spent one semester at university over there [though it was in a blue state ] and the majority of students i met came across as a lot more intelligent than students i met in ireland. i'm not making any actual judgements on levels of intelligence, and i know many people say our standard of education is better. but the average student's range of conversation, social awareness and ability to articulate an opinion etc, was just way more impressive than back home.

Eve_Dublin

vicecreamsundae wrote: »

i'm all for political criticism of america and it's policies, but i'm soo tired of hearing people make those "americans are stupid" comments, and in my experience it's only said by people who are in no position to be calling anyone stupid!

i spent one semester at university over there [though it was in a blue state ] and the majority of students i met came across as a lot more intelligent than students i met in ireland. i'm not making any actual judgements on levels of intelligence, and i know many people say our standard of education is better. but the average student's range of conversation, social awareness and ability to articulate an opinion etc, was just way more impressive than back home.

But Americans have been doing "show and tell" and public speaking from the age of 5. They´ve had a lot of practice structuring and articulating their thoughts over the years and are subsequently a billion times more confident and self-assured than your average Irish person. That doesn´t mean they know more than we do or are more intelligent. As I said a few posts ago, Americans have no qualms about saying something stupid, they´re incapable of getting embarrassed whereas I think we Irish fear coming across as stupid or even arrogant( in case we come across as getting above our station due to Irish begrudgery), so we tend to take less risks when conversing intellectually.

I wonder how many of the super-clever posters that contribute to Boards are as articulate in the "real world"?

BluePlanet

donegalfella wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

TBH that sounds a lot like naivety.
I received a lecture in wine country in France that detailed how USA saved French wine. Basically recounting that once upon a time a particular blight spread across much of southern France destroying grapes.
Things got so bad they took their seed overseas to preserve the good strains.
USA and I believe Australia were basically nominated as care-takers of French wine.
Years later those strains were re-introduced in France.
It was a Frenchman that told me that, i don't know if it's true.

Hazys

Eve_Dublin wrote: »

But Americans have been doing "show and tell" and public speaking from the age of 5. They´ve had a lot of practice structuring and articulating their thoughts over the years and are subsequently a billion times more confident and self-assured than your average Irish person. That doesn´t mean they know more than we do or are more intelligent. As I said a few posts ago, Americans have no qualms about saying something stupid, they´re incapable of getting embarrassed whereas I think we Irish fear coming across as stupid or even arrogant( in case we come across as getting above our station due to Irish begrudgery), so we tend to take less risks when conversing intellectually.

I wonder how many of the super-clever posters that contribute to Boards are as articulate in the "real world"?

Being able to communicate is a characteristic of intelligence.

Ash.J.Williams

I found it hilarious that England couldn't beat USA in the WC last week, because all day long on the bbc they ripped the p*ss, calling them footballs "out of the loop" cousins etc....
anyway professionally I have found Americans to be life saviours. We tend to do things our own way over here, but americans do everything by the book. They are more methodical and seem to know a hell of a lot more.

Eve_Dublin

Hazys wrote: »

Being able to communicate is a characteristic of intelligence.

Fair enough but it isn´t the sole characteristic as plenty of stupid people can communicate as well. Some of the cleverest people I know are incredibly shy or have stutters or have no people skills.