How do you feel when you encounter a Burqua/Niqabi clad woman?

irishconvert

looksee wrote: »

That really isn't a reasonable response to what has been a very reasonable discussion. I think it is perfectly obvious from the last few posts that the compromise being asked for is that the face is visible in normal communication. Possibly not when just walking along a street, but in dealings where conversation or communication is taking place it would be courteous to bow to local custom.

I think that throughout this discussion, no-one has a problem with people following their own customs, with the exception of the one situation of not being able to speak face to face with another person. It goes against local mores to the extent of being considered ill-mannered, and this is the compromise that is being suggested.

I guess that 99% of people on boards who have made this point have never been in a position where they had to talk to a woman in a burqa. Why worry about a situation you have never been in and are unlikely to find yourself in?

irishconvert

Jakkass wrote: »

Although one could agree in principle, this raises bigger questions?
What are our ways?
Who is "our" referring to?
Who are "they"?
What makes "theirs" different from "ours"?

We could be all night discussing these things, and you might find that what you are considering to be "our ways" aren't really "ours" at all, "ours" in that they aren't mutually shared by all Irish people.

I agree. My "ways" are not the same "ways" as my parents, grand parents, many work colleagues and even some friends'.

looksee

irishconvert wrote: »

I guess that 99% of people on boards who have made this point have never been in a position where they had to talk to a woman in a burqa. Why worry about a situation you have never been in and are unlikely to find yourself in?

So presumably that closes the discussion?

keithclancy

I'm Irish living in Holland, quite a few Muslims living here

IMO I see no difference between the hardcore christians with regards to enforcement of beliefs and lack of open mindedness. I work with a few Turkish and Indian Muslims, finding Halal food their parents approve of is quite difficult !

FYI Women still have to cover their hair and shoulders entering Catholic Churches in Malta

My opinion would be that the Burka can't be seen to be acceptable in public settings, i.e. it covers the face and makes the person non identifiable, which if accepted as the norm means that everyone is entitled to wear a face covering. To force people that were not Muslims from wearing a Burka would be discrimatory and illegal.

In short the People that choose to wear a Burka as a part of their faith are not being discriminated against, they are merely being treated the same as everyone else, regardless of their Race, Color, Ethnicity or Religion.

When you come to another country you have to respect the laws and cultures of that country.

On the other side of it, Western Europeans do not go to a strict Islamic law enforcing countries wearing a string bikini.

philologos

looksee wrote: »

So presumably that closes the discussion?

No he's making a rather good point actually. He's suggesting that most of this legislation is being made by those who aren't affected by wearing the burqa at all. In fact the legislation is written by those outside, who are basing the law on their perception of what burqa wearing must be like.

caseyann

Jakkass wrote: »

Although one could agree in principle, this raises bigger questions?
What are our ways?
Who is "our" referring to?
Who are "they"?
What makes "theirs" different from "ours"?

We could be all night discussing these things, and you might find that what you are considering to be "our ways" aren't really "ours" at all, "ours" in that they aren't mutually shared by all Irish people.

Meaning they see our faces we see theirs,You want to move to a country where law states you can not cover your face with anything in airports,banks,shops,post offices etc.. then they should not try to as it is not a Islamic tradition to wear them(Women in these countries are fighting for freedom for this very reason along with many more) .I have no problem with them wanting to cover their heads just don't cover their faces.
I also don't mind if they wear the head covering in school that's not an issue,full face is though not for just their own sake but for the kids around them to relate to them.
Freedom for women this is not dark ages,we are not an Arab state.

irishconvert wrote: »

I guess that 99% of people on boards who have made this point have never been in a position where they had to talk to a woman in a burqa. Why worry about a situation you have never been in and are unlikely to find yourself in?

I have been in that situation many a time,doesn't bother me.I would be one it doesn't make me uncomfortable,just makes me think does that woman really want to be like that and makes me sad if she doesn't :(Just doesn't sit right with people having their own rules set in our country when they wouldn't abide by it in their countries.
And if it makes people feel uneasy in their own country they shouldn't be allowed.
Why should Ireland bend to their rules,i don't understand that when they wouldn't bend them for us?

p.s if no one is allowed to look on their wifes or women,then i think time those men wore them aswell all time!!!

philologos

caseyann wrote: »

Meaning they see our faces we see theirs,You want to move to a country where law states you can not cover your face with anything in airports,banks,shops,post offices etc.

They have already found solutions to burqa wearing in airports. I don't see why similar structures cannot be used in banks or in other places. The idea is, have a female member of staff accompany the women to a private room, where she can uncover her face.

caseyann wrote: »

then they should not try to as it is not a Islamic tradition to wear them(Women in these countries are fighting for freedom for this very reason along with many more) .I have no problem with them wanting to cover their heads just don't cover their faces.

I don't see how this has anything to do with freedom. You're working under the assumption that women are forced to wear them by men. This is a fallacious assumption that cannot be substantiated.

caseyann wrote: »

I also don't mind if they wear the head covering in school that's not an issue,full face is though not for just their own sake but for the kids around them to relate to them.

This is one of the "within reason" clauses I would say. The burqa will be a hindrance to some functions, that's clear. I don't believe it should be universally banned in public though.

caseyann wrote: »

Freedom for women this is not dark ages,we are not an Arab state.

Yes, and women should be free to wear what they want in a Western country even if you find that hideous, as long as it does not hinder your personal rights.

caseyann

Jakkass wrote: »

They have already found solutions to burqa wearing in airports. I don't see why similar structures cannot be used in banks or in other places. The idea is, have a female member of staff accompany the women to a private room, where she can uncover her face.

No problem with that then,but now i choose to do the same i wish to wear what i want in a bank and airport so other people cant look at me it is my right:D



I don't see how this has anything to do with freedom. You're working under the assumption that women are forced to wear them by men. This is a fallacious assumption that cannot be substantiated.

I am not working under any assumption,sat through many a program of women in Arab countries fighting for the hijab and burqa to be banned along with right to work and study etc.. and to not be forced into marriage.And not i but one of the very women who ran away from home says the full covering is a oppression on women.What would you call it when a woman isn't allowed to be looked upon by other men.Probably necessary as they are considered sluts if they do in some regions and would be afraid of their lives to not wear it.



This is one of the "within reason" clauses I would say. The burqa will be a hindrance to some functions, that's clear. I don't believe it should be universally banned in public though.

Dont mind it in public,what ever floats your boat.But i would hope when these women get a feeling of freedom and if been forced to wear by their husbands,they will run for the next country and leave him there.


Yes, and women should be free to wear what they want in a Western country even if you find that hideous, as long as it does not hinder your personal rights.

I didnt say i find it hideous (dont try add things i never said) Majority of my friends who are Muslim think its a disgrace that women are wearing full covering on their face.I find it degrading and oppressive and controlling so do they.

p.s you forgot last part of it.If the women wear them then so should their husbands imo.Whats good for goose is good for gander;)

Also this is not about muslims its about a culture,culture not religion,laws of men not women enforces the hijab

keithclancy

Jakkass wrote: »

They have already found solutions to burqa wearing in airports. I don't see why similar structures cannot be used in banks or in other places. The idea is, have a female member of staff accompany the women to a private room, where she can uncover her face.

In that case any member of the General Public could wear a Burka.

You'd also need an extra member of staff to accommodate a small minority of people.

I'm not for the banning of it because it violates womens rights (that opens a whole different can of worms) I'm for banning it because it covers the face.

Besides that the Burka is also a health hazard, women who wear them are much more likely to develop breast cancer due to a lack of Vitamin D

Kiwi_knock

You have to understand that in Ireland, Muslim women are far more liberal than in the Middle East. The Burqua/Niqabi debate divides the Muslim community. Some say it is an oppressive tool for degrading women's role in society. Others say it is a way of keeping in touch with their culture. Men's role in deciding if a woman should wear a burqua/niqabi is quite limited in Ireland compared to the Middle East.
Should the Burqua/Niqabi be worn in public? Yes and No. Yes in situations that require very little people interaction. No in situations were people interaction is definetly required. A balance between the two needs to be met and decide which situations should prohibit it and which should not.
They should not have to adapt our culture merely respect it. They should not discard their culture and replace it with ours.
Do I find it uncomfortable, no not really as I do not view them as a threat to our society or culture. I am more interested in the reason why the woman should wear it.

philologos

keithclancy wrote: »

In that case any member of the General Public could wear a Burka.

Your point being?

keithclancy wrote: »

You'd also need an extra member of staff to accommodate a small minority of people.

This already happens in most major airports in Europe, if not also in the US and elsewhere.

keithclancy wrote: »

I'm not for the banning of it because it violates womens rights (that opens a whole different can of worms) I'm for banning it because it covers the face.

I don't personally see any reason for banning it in public. However, there should be exceptions to the rule such as teaching in class etc.

keithclancy wrote: »

Besides that the Burka is also a health hazard, women who wear them are much more likely to develop breast cancer due to a lack of Vitamin D

Ah come on. You're likely to develop liver problems should you drink a lot of alcohol, you're likely to develop lung cancer if you smoke. Why don't we ban all things that are unhealthy?

looksee

Jakkass wrote: »

No he's making a rather good point actually. He's suggesting that most of this legislation is being made by those who aren't affected by wearing the burqa at all. In fact the legislation is written by those outside, who are basing the law on their perception of what burqa wearing must be like.

No, he wasn't discussing legislation, and nor was anyone else, we were discussing emotional reactions to a particular custom from another country. It seems a bit of a cop out to me to get to a stage in a discussion where someone just says, oh well, I presume it doesn't affect you so why are you talking about it. You could close a lot of discussions with that.

WindSock

I really dislike the reason for the covering up of women, as they are for their husbands eyes only. To me it is almost the equivalent of gouging mens eyes out for looking at them. Why should one party be completly restricted in their daily lives to appease another?

keithclancy

Jakkass wrote: »

Your point being?

I can wear a Burka, walk into a shop, shoplift a load of items, the CCTV cameras become useless.

This already happens in most major airports in Europe, if not also in the US and elsewhere.

Happens in Schiphol but the wait is very long as you have to go into a special room where they checkout your documentation, if going through the Schengen gate (where there is no passport control) you have to present yourself to the Authorities. All pointless IMO.

I don't personally see any reason for banning it in public. However, there should be exceptions to the rule such as teaching in class etc.

In the Schengen countries it is illegal to not carry and official document identifying yourself, would consider completely covering your identifying features as one step beyond that.

Ah come on. You're likely to develop liver problems should you drink a lot of alcohol, you're likely to develop lung cancer if you smoke. Why don't we ban all things that are unhealthy?

Your not allowed Alcohol or Cigarettes until you are over 18.

Zombrex

caseyann wrote: »

Originally Posted by irishconvert
I don't like burqa. It is unnecessary under Islamic law. However I do respect the right of a woman to wear one if she chooses to do so.

If we are meant to respect their ways in their country,they should compromise when they live in ours.

You aren't meant to respect "their" ways in their country (I assume you mean Muslim countries) you are meant to respect their laws.

And they should respect our laws. Wearing a bur'ka is not against the law.

caseyann

Wicknight wrote: »

You aren't meant to respect "their" ways in their country (I assume you mean Muslim countries) you are meant to respect their laws.

And they should respect our laws. Wearing a bur'ka is not against the law.

No their ways are their laws btw i don't see the burqa as a religious thing as Irishconvert also pointed out
So don't say Muslim countries as iam not disgusing religion.

looksee

Wicknight wrote: »

You aren't meant to respect "their" ways in their country (I assume you mean Muslim countries) you are meant to respect their laws.

And they should respect our laws. Wearing a bur'ka is not against the law.

You don't have to respect laws, you obey them. You can however respect customs.

philologos

What customs do we have? - This is the question that is being ignored, not also to mention "Who are we?", "Who are they?", "Why are they so different from us?".

Us and them situations are difficult.

prinz

Jakkass wrote: »

What customs do we have?

The custom of habitually showing your face when you interact with the public at large.

Of course the argument that it's not against the law is flawed. The same people would argue that it shouldn't ever be made a law either. So even if a referendum of the citizens of this country we decided to outlaw burkas there would still be an issue.

Even in jurisdictions where it does breach the law people argue that they should be allowed wear it anyway.

Truley

Seeing a woman in a burqua/niqab has never bothered me. I have probably only encountered them a handfull of times in my life. The most recent was just a couple of weeks ago. A mother, father and three kids were having a picnic near me in a well known riverside spot. She was wearing a black niqab from what I gather, with black gloves. She chatted to her husband, I saw her toss a ball with the kids, cuddle them. Pretty normal family scene, I don't find it intimidating. However I have never really suscribed to the media hype surrounding muslims and middle eastern culture.

In fact as a woman sometimes I'd love to be able to throw a cloth over my head and not have to worry about all the petty little day to day insecurities I usually have to worry about, my hair, make up, clothes etc I don't presume a woman in Ireland is being 'forced' or 'brainwashed' to wear it any more than we are 'brainwashed' into wearing high heels, which are horribly oppressive not to mention bad for health and often dangerous footwear. I can understand the reasons why a woman would choose to dress conservatively. And I can respect that.

On a security level, if a veiled woman is out in public she will 99.9% of the time be with at least one other male, not to mention children. If she does decide to hold up a shop it would be pretty easy to identify her from the unveilled people around her. If you see a covered woman on her own maybe that's a different story. I don't think it has ever been a genuine issue in this country.

As for the whole 'they should respect our culture' argument. In all honesty I have never found Islam in Ireland to be a particularly 'preechy' religion. You don't see them putting leaflets through doors, shouting in the streets, I rarely hear from them in the media. And I should know I went to an ET school, there were alot of them there. They really keep themselves to themselves when it comes to their own religion and customs. It's not like they're expecting Irish women to do the same, so what's the big fuss about.

If you find something like this intimidating and offensive it's up to you to make the effort to shed your prejudices and actually find out what the truth is, not just what you hear and see in the media.

Freiheit

I have researched Islam and I believe it to be oppressive of women,restricting their rights , that's not about prejudice as it's based on reason. I have heard of children being frightened by such women too. I have no trouble believing this, a moving black triangle for a child could be terrifying.

irishconvert

Freiheit wrote: »

I have researched Islam and I believe it to be oppressive of women,restricting their rights

Is it Islam you researched, or have you researched the culture of some people who happen to be Muslim? My wife is a practising Muslim (as I am) and she is not opressed, her rights are not restricted.

Truley

Freiheit wrote: »

I have researched Islam and I believe it to be oppressive of women,restricting their rights , that's not about prejudice as it's based on reason. I have heard of children being frightened by such women too. I have no trouble believing this, a moving black triangle for a child could be terrifying.

Of course it's oppressive to women, it's oppressive to men too. All religions are oppressive to some extent. As are other secular aspects of our lives, the law, the government, our families, other people... That's not really the point. I could say Irish women were once oppressed by the Catholic church but since most Irish women chose to follow the religion there isn't much you or I can do about it. If someone chooses to follow restrictive laws and customs that's their right. We all allow ourselves to be oppressed to some extent, in every aspect of our lives.

As for scaring children - where do you get that from? Do children get scared when their mothers or aunts wear burkas? That is a completely unfounded statement, I have certainly never seen a child get upset by the sight of a woman in a burka. If you are concerned about your children why not sit down with them and explain what it is, so they will be prepared for when they do see one.

Freiheit

Freiheit wrote: »

Encountered a woman yesterday in Saudi like garb, showing only her eyes. I felt sad and subconsciously a little scared of this culture.

Personally I don't have a problem with it when it happens in their own countries. I've been to a fair number of muslim countries, and have muslim friends in China who wear such garments. It never bothered me all that much. Their choice.

However, I'm totally against it when it happens in Ireland, or other western countries. It serves to separate them from mainstream society, and limits their acceptance. I've never believed in such practices and will continue to believe that such practices are not suitable in Ireland.

However if I was in a M.eastern country, I would obey the culture of that country and dress appropriately. And I would expect western women to do so also.

As for being oppressive to women, I think it comes down to the individual. If they find it oppressive, then I'd have some sympathy... but since personally I know some women who find such practices as being comfortable, I'm not going to make a sweeping gesture. Its not my culture, and I'm not going to pretend that I understand it.

irishconvert

Deleted User wrote: »

It serves to separate them from mainstream society, and limits their acceptance.

Do you also object to other ways people use to separate themself from mainstream society, e.g. dressing as goths, having multiple piercings over their face. Why should everybody conform to "mainstream society"? Do you not believe in diversity?

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you also object to other ways people use to separate themself from mainstream society, e.g. dressing as goths, having multiple piercings over their face. Why should everybody conform to "mainstream society"? Do you not believe in diversity?

And all of those you mentioned don't hide the face... Perhaps point to some segments in our society who do cover their face for a more similar example?

I have no issue with people who want to appear different. But I do take exception to practices which cover the face which I use to make an initial impression of people, and helps for me to judge reactions. All of which is part of western culture.

Its funny how my not wanting them to hide their face in a western country equates this...

irishconvert

Deleted User wrote: »

And all of those you mentioned don't hide the face... Perhaps point to some segments in our society who do cover their face for a more similar example?

I have no issue with people who want to appear different. But I do take exception to practices which cover the face which I use to make an initial impression of people, and helps for me to judge reactions. All of which is part of western culture.

Its funny how my not wanting them to hide their face in a western country equates this...

What about people who cover their face who you do not interact with, someone just walking down the street? Do you have an objection if you are not going to interact with them?

Wolfe Tone

irishconvert wrote: »

What about people who cover their face who you do not interact with, someone just walking down the street? Do you have an objection if you are not going to interact with them?

In fairness I don't think peoples faces should be completely covered in public, for similar reasons as bikers not wearing helmets inside shops etc.... The headscarf? Nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

irishconvert

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

In fairness I don't think peoples faces should be completely covered in public, for similar reasons as bikers not wearing helmets inside shops etc.... The headscarf? Nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

In fairness, a biker can walk down the street wearing a helmet, therefore their face is covered in public. People often wear scarves and hats which cover most of their face in the winter. Should this be outlawed also?

looksee

irishconvert wrote: »

In fairness, a biker can walk down the street wearing a helmet, therefore their face is covered in public. People often wear scarves and hats which cover most of their face in the winter. Should this be outlawed also?

I can't remember ever seeing a biker wearing a helmet with the visor down other than on a motorbike. And the garment that covers most of your face is a balaclava, which would be regarded as very undesirable in a city, and would be considered just as intimidating as a burka