How do you feel when you encounter a Burqua/Niqabi clad woman?

Freiheit

I have researched Islam and I believe it to be oppressive of women,restricting their rights , that's not about prejudice as it's based on reason. I have heard of children being frightened by such women too. I have no trouble believing this, a moving black triangle for a child could be terrifying.

irishconvert

Freiheit wrote: »

I have researched Islam and I believe it to be oppressive of women,restricting their rights

Is it Islam you researched, or have you researched the culture of some people who happen to be Muslim? My wife is a practising Muslim (as I am) and she is not opressed, her rights are not restricted.

Truley

Freiheit wrote: »

I have researched Islam and I believe it to be oppressive of women,restricting their rights , that's not about prejudice as it's based on reason. I have heard of children being frightened by such women too. I have no trouble believing this, a moving black triangle for a child could be terrifying.

Of course it's oppressive to women, it's oppressive to men too. All religions are oppressive to some extent. As are other secular aspects of our lives, the law, the government, our families, other people... That's not really the point. I could say Irish women were once oppressed by the Catholic church but since most Irish women chose to follow the religion there isn't much you or I can do about it. If someone chooses to follow restrictive laws and customs that's their right. We all allow ourselves to be oppressed to some extent, in every aspect of our lives.

As for scaring children - where do you get that from? Do children get scared when their mothers or aunts wear burkas? That is a completely unfounded statement, I have certainly never seen a child get upset by the sight of a woman in a burka. If you are concerned about your children why not sit down with them and explain what it is, so they will be prepared for when they do see one.

Freiheit

Freiheit wrote: »

Encountered a woman yesterday in Saudi like garb, showing only her eyes. I felt sad and subconsciously a little scared of this culture.

Personally I don't have a problem with it when it happens in their own countries. I've been to a fair number of muslim countries, and have muslim friends in China who wear such garments. It never bothered me all that much. Their choice.

However, I'm totally against it when it happens in Ireland, or other western countries. It serves to separate them from mainstream society, and limits their acceptance. I've never believed in such practices and will continue to believe that such practices are not suitable in Ireland.

However if I was in a M.eastern country, I would obey the culture of that country and dress appropriately. And I would expect western women to do so also.

As for being oppressive to women, I think it comes down to the individual. If they find it oppressive, then I'd have some sympathy... but since personally I know some women who find such practices as being comfortable, I'm not going to make a sweeping gesture. Its not my culture, and I'm not going to pretend that I understand it.

irishconvert

Deleted User wrote: »

It serves to separate them from mainstream society, and limits their acceptance.

Do you also object to other ways people use to separate themself from mainstream society, e.g. dressing as goths, having multiple piercings over their face. Why should everybody conform to "mainstream society"? Do you not believe in diversity?

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you also object to other ways people use to separate themself from mainstream society, e.g. dressing as goths, having multiple piercings over their face. Why should everybody conform to "mainstream society"? Do you not believe in diversity?

And all of those you mentioned don't hide the face... Perhaps point to some segments in our society who do cover their face for a more similar example?

I have no issue with people who want to appear different. But I do take exception to practices which cover the face which I use to make an initial impression of people, and helps for me to judge reactions. All of which is part of western culture.

Its funny how my not wanting them to hide their face in a western country equates this...

irishconvert

Deleted User wrote: »

And all of those you mentioned don't hide the face... Perhaps point to some segments in our society who do cover their face for a more similar example?

I have no issue with people who want to appear different. But I do take exception to practices which cover the face which I use to make an initial impression of people, and helps for me to judge reactions. All of which is part of western culture.

Its funny how my not wanting them to hide their face in a western country equates this...

What about people who cover their face who you do not interact with, someone just walking down the street? Do you have an objection if you are not going to interact with them?

Wolfe Tone

irishconvert wrote: »

What about people who cover their face who you do not interact with, someone just walking down the street? Do you have an objection if you are not going to interact with them?

In fairness I don't think peoples faces should be completely covered in public, for similar reasons as bikers not wearing helmets inside shops etc.... The headscarf? Nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

irishconvert

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

In fairness I don't think peoples faces should be completely covered in public, for similar reasons as bikers not wearing helmets inside shops etc.... The headscarf? Nothing whatsoever wrong with that.

In fairness, a biker can walk down the street wearing a helmet, therefore their face is covered in public. People often wear scarves and hats which cover most of their face in the winter. Should this be outlawed also?

looksee

irishconvert wrote: »

In fairness, a biker can walk down the street wearing a helmet, therefore their face is covered in public. People often wear scarves and hats which cover most of their face in the winter. Should this be outlawed also?

I can't remember ever seeing a biker wearing a helmet with the visor down other than on a motorbike. And the garment that covers most of your face is a balaclava, which would be regarded as very undesirable in a city, and would be considered just as intimidating as a burka

Truley

looksee wrote: »

I can't remember ever seeing a biker wearing a helmet with the visor down other than on a motorbike. And the garment that covers most of your face is a balaclava, which would be regarded as very undesirable in a city, and would be considered just as intimidating as a burka

I think what he is trying to say is the biker can choose to wear his visor down if he wishes, that is the fundamental difference. People say they find burqas intimidating and that it seperates it's wearer from society. They believe that the law should reflect their viewpoint above the burqa wearers. I would call that discrimination. I think the law is there to give validity to people like you's fears and prejudices.

For what it's worth I have never seen a woman wearing a burka in Ireland, I hope most people are able to distinguish a burka from a niqab. Niqabs do show the eyes.

And the very fact that you are seeing them in public demonstrates that they are clearly not segregated from society, any more than the next randomer that passes you in the street.

looksee

Not in Ireland to any great extent, though I have seen some, but the question is not about legalities in Ireland, its about how you feel about these garments. How you feel about them does not have to reflect political correctness.

I have walked through Leicester in the UK where the asian population is now greater than the caucasian/English population, and you will see crowds of women wearing both burquas and niqabis as well as saris, shalwar kameez (my daughter has a very attractive shalwar kameez, given to her by an asian friend) and other variations of national dress. I have no problem with any of the latter, in fact I find them colourful and attractive, but I do not like being in the midst of a crowd of women wearing face covering veils. I find it creepy and disconcerting. OK so that's not PC, but its how I feel. I went into a shopping centre the last time I was over and at first glance the only people not wearing full veils were men. And me.

In Leicester there are (mainstream) schools where the school uniform is shalwar kameez, or a variation on asian dress, sikh police are allowed to wear turbans, the majority of the city council is asian and there are roads where you would only see asian shops. The government has encouraged this policy of segregation by encouraging immigrants to bring all their customs, language etc with them, the only thing they have not (entirely) accepted is Sharia law. Now the younger asian people who have grown up as almost British are stranded between two identities.

It would be a courtesy to bow to local custom and make a tiny step toward acknowledging that they have chosen to live in a different country by not wearing the face covering garments.

Wolfe Tone

irishconvert wrote: »

In fairness, a biker can walk down the street wearing a helmet, therefore their face is covered in public. People often wear scarves and hats which cover most of their face in the winter. Should this be outlawed also?

I think walking down the street is fine. In shops and banks etc were ones face NEEDS to be seen for security reasons, it is not fine. You follow me?

Truley

looksee wrote: »

I have no problem with any of the latter, in fact I find them colourful and attractive, but I do not like being in the midst of a crowd of women wearing face covering veils. I find it creepy and disconcerting. OK so that's not PC, but its how I feel. I went into a shopping centre the last time I was over and at first glance the only people not wearing full veils were men. And me.

Fair enough. But can I ask what exactly is it about a covered woman that you find so intimidating? Is it because you are outnumbered by them? Do you feel they might be pulling faces at you? Are you afraid they might turn violent, that they might be conceling weapons? Sorry to bombard you with questions but I am genuinely interested in what other people are seeing that I am not. Do you think how you feel would change if you saw it in a different context. For example if you saw a woman playing tennis, or pushing her child on a tricycle while wearing one would you still feel creeped out?

In Leicester there are (mainstream) schools where the school uniform is shalwar kameez, or a variation on asian dress, sikh police are allowed to wear turbans, the majority of the city council is asian and there are roads where you would only see asian shops. The government has encouraged this policy of segregation by encouraging immigrants to bring all their customs, language etc with them, the only thing they have not (entirely) accepted is Sharia law. Now the younger asian people who have grown up as almost British are stranded between two identities.

Do you think it's the government's job to discourage asian shops etc in their country? I don't see how opening an asian foodstore serves to segerate people, it's just a shop selling a particular type of food. I'm Irish and I used Asian and eastern European shops all the time when I lived in Dublin, simply because they served alot of nice foods and spices that I couldn't get anywhere else. Do you think Asian people should be encouraged to do their shopping in places like Tesco instead, would it desegregate them more?

MUSSOLINI wrote: »

I think walking down the street is fine. In shops and banks etc were ones face NEEDS to be seen for security reasons, it is not fine. You follow me?

That's fair enough, has it ever been an issue in this country?

looksee

Truley wrote: »

Fair enough. But can I ask what exactly is it about a covered woman that you find so intimidating? Is it because you are outnumbered by them? Do you feel they might be pulling faces at you? Are you afraid they might turn violent, that they might be conceling weapons? Sorry to bombard you with questions but I am genuinely interested in what other people are seeing that I am not. Do you think how you feel would change if you saw it in a different context. For example if you saw a woman playing tennis, or pushing her child on a tricycle while wearing one would you still feel creeped out?

None of those things, and I saw a picture of a woman in a niquabi holding a toddler, and I thought it was rather sad. Why I feel intimidated? I suppose it is because they seem like faceless automatons. I don't claim that my feelings are logical.

Truley wrote: »

Do you think it's the government's job to discourage asian shops etc in their country? I don't see how opening an asian foodstore serves to segerate people, it's just a shop selling a particular type of food. I'm Irish and I used Asian and eastern European shops all the time when I lived in Dublin, simply because they served alot of nice foods and spices that I couldn't get anywhere else. Do you think Asian people should be encouraged to do their shopping in places like Tesco instead, would it desegregate them more?

I am not saying that there should not be asian shops, quite the reverse, I have no problem with shops of any nationality. I was pointing out that the asian population had chosen to ghetto-ise themselves and very many of them lived in the same area. I would not expect the government to go out of its way to prevent people from living wherever they wish, but it all adds to the sense of people living in a country but involving themselves as little as possible.

Wolfe Tone

Truley wrote: »

That's fair enough, has it ever been an issue in this country?

Not that I know of, but it isn't hard to imagine robbers or thieves dressing up as such and bringing the name of decent Muslims into disrepute. All it would take would be one high profile robbery using such a disguise for every single Muslim dresses as such to be treated worse than they already are.

I think that things that cover the face completely(not headscarf's) should all be treated equally.It should be treated just like bicycle helmets are.

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

In fairness, a biker can walk down the street wearing a helmet, therefore their face is covered in public. People often wear scarves and hats which cover most of their face in the winter. Should this be outlawed also?

You're not comparing like with like. I asked you to provide a similar example, which you have failed to do. No biker wears his helmet every moment in public.
As for your scarf reference, its not ask if they're covering their whole face... How many people have you seen with a scarf covering their face recently?

Truley

Deleted User wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like. I asked you to provide a similar example, which you have failed to do. No biker wears his helmet every moment in public.
As for your scarf reference, its not ask if they're covering their whole face... How many people have you seen with a scarf covering their face recently?

During the winter I often went out with a scarf pulled up to my nose, as well as a hat covering my head. I saw lots of people do it.
Of course it's not comparing like with like, a biker doesn't have a practical reason to wear a helmet anywhere but off a bike, though I doubt anyone would be 'freaked out' if he did. Muslim women who choose to wear a burka do so for their own reasons of modesty, there isn't really any comparison, in this country anyway. I strongly suspect the reason most people find it unsettling is because of the religious/cultural contrast, rather than good manners. Would you object to a person with say, a facial disfigurement covering part of their face when going out in public?

Truley

Truley wrote: »

During the winter I often went out with a scarf pulled up to my nose, as well as a hat covering my head. I saw lots of people do it.

Yes, in winter. How many have you seen do it during the hottest days of this year?

Of course it's not comparing like with like, a biker doesn't have a practical reason to wear a helmet anywhere but off a bike, though I doubt anyone would be 'freaked out' if he did. Muslim women who choose to wear a burka do so for their own reasons of modesty, there isn't really any comparison, in this country anyway. I strongly suspect the reason most people find it unsettling is because of the religious/cultural contrast, rather than good manners. Would you object to a person with say, a facial disfigurement covering part of their face when going out in public?

Which is my point. In this country. In a country where the culture requires or encourages such modesty, I have no issue with it, however not in this country. Personally, I believe a lot of the problems that countries like France or Britain have with multiple cultures is that they allowed them to carry a segment of their own cultures with them, who then set themselves apart from the rest of society. I'd rather not see Ireland go down the same road. Make it clear from the beginning.

As for the facial disfigurement, Its another one of these off-the-wall examples. Of course, some people can and will cover their faces. What we're talking about here is a growing portion of the population, with a very different culture, and one that often receives rather negative attention. People moan about how ethnic minorities receive violent, or abusive attention, but refuse to believe that their demands for freedom to set these people apart is part of the problem.

Let them live like other Irish people. That's my opinion. If they want the continue with their own traditions, let them do so in the privacy of their own homes, or in their own country.

prinz

Truley wrote: »

During the winter I often went out with a scarf pulled up to my nose, as well as a hat covering my head. I saw lots of people do it.

Would you pull it down when you conversed with someone?

Truley wrote: »

Of course it's not comparing like with like, a biker doesn't have a practical reason to wear a helmet anywhere but off a bike, though I doubt anyone would be 'freaked out' if he did..

Neither does a woman wearing a burka or a niqab incidentally. Personally I wouldn't feel at all comfortable with someone arriving into my place of work wearing a motorcycle helmet and refusing to remove it. I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing a lift with such a person, or eating in a restaurant with such a customer, or being in a shop etc etc.

irishconvert

looksee wrote: »

I am not saying that there should not be asian shops, quite the reverse, I have no problem with shops of any nationality. I was pointing out that the asian population had chosen to ghetto-ise themselves and very many of them lived in the same area.

There is nothing wrong with this. The Irish do the same everywhere they go. There are areas in London and New York that were predominantly Irish. People naturally seek out their own when they emmigrate as they want to be around people who share similar customs, culture (tastes in food, music, etc). I live in an area in London which has a high asian population and I have no problems whatsoever. They are very friendly to me and like it when non-asians come to their area and shop in their shops.

looksee wrote: »

I would not expect the government to go out of its way to prevent people from living wherever they wish, but it all adds to the sense of people living in a country but involving themselves as little as possible.

Do you not think there is an onus on you also to involve yourself with the immigrants? Why don't you visit their area, befriend them, shop in their shops? You could even buy a house in the area they live.

irishconvert

Deleted User wrote: »

However, I'm totally against it when it happens in Ireland, or other western countries. It serves to separate them from mainstream society, and limits their acceptance. I've never believed in such practices and will continue to believe that such practices are not suitable in Ireland.

However if I was in a M.eastern country, I would obey the culture of that country and dress appropriately. And I would expect western women to do so also.

irishconvert wrote: »

Do you also object to other ways people use to separate themself from mainstream society, e.g. dressing as goths, having multiple piercings over their face. Why should everybody conform to "mainstream society"? Do you not believe in diversity?

Deleted User wrote: »

And all of those you mentioned don't hide the face... Perhaps point to some segments in our society who do cover their face for a more similar example?

I have no issue with people who want to appear different. But I do take exception to practices which cover the face which I use to make an initial impression of people, and helps for me to judge reactions. All of which is part of western culture.

Its funny how my not wanting them to hide their face in a western country equates this...

irishconvert wrote: »

What about people who cover their face who you do not interact with, someone just walking down the street? Do you have an objection if you are not going to interact with them?

You haven't answered this.

Deleted User wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like. I asked you to provide a similar example, which you have failed to do. No biker wears his helmet every moment in public.
As for your scarf reference, its not ask if they're covering their whole face... How many people have you seen with a scarf covering their face recently?

Your point was that you don't agree with covering the face in public. I have provided examples of when western people cover their face and also other things they do to isolate themselves from mainstream society. You now seem to be changing your stance and saying that you don't mind covering face in certain situations but not 100% of the time?

Have you ever interacted with these women? Has it actually caused a problem for you in real life or do you just not like the look of it and are using interaction as an excuse to critise it?

Javelin77

One thing i like about burqua it's a perfect camouflage for a cheating wife. Imagine walking down the streets with someone's wife you can pass right next to him and he will never notice. Ok that was a moronic joke but i love it cos there is a possibility that it might happen.

caseyann

Javelin77 wrote: »

One thing i like about burqua it's a perfect camouflage for a cheating wife. Imagine walking down the streets with someone's wife you can pass right next to him and he will never notice. Ok that was a moronic joke but i love it cos there is a possibility that it might happen.

Oh i see you already did it :eek::D

Truley

Deleted User wrote: »

Yes, in winter. How many have you seen do it during the hottest days of this year?

It makes perfect sense to cover your body in a light fabric during hot days, as most of these women come from hotter climates I imagine they serve a functional as well as cultural purpose. Look at the way people dress in the desert, male and female.

Which is my point. In this country. In a country where the culture requires or encourages such modesty, I have no issue with it, however not in this country. Personally, I believe a lot of the problems that countries like France or Britain have with multiple cultures is that they allowed them to carry a segment of their own cultures with them, who then set themselves apart from the rest of society. I'd rather not see Ireland go down the same road. Make it clear from the beginning.

We both have different ideas of what seperation from society means. 'Society' is not an objective term we all have different levels of participation in 'society.' My GP is from Pakistan, I imagine he speaks his own language and eats his native food at home, I know his wife covers her hair. Yes he sperates himself from the mainstream to an extent but not in other aspects. We have our own native subcultures too, goths, bikers, criminals. I 'seperate' myself in alot of ways, I don't own a car or a tv, I don't shop in places like tesco, I don't read newspapers. I'm probably more seperated from Irish society than alot of foreigners are.

As for the facial disfigurement, Its another one of these off-the-wall examples. Of course, some people can and will cover their faces. What we're talking about here is a growing portion of the population, with a very different culture, and one that often receives rather negative attention. People moan about how ethnic minorities receive violent, or abusive attention, but refuse to believe that their demands for freedom to set these people apart is part of the problem.

How much they are set apart is up to you though. Like I said I went to an Educate Together school with alot of muslim kids. It was never a problem for me, in fact one of their religious leaders (I don't know what they're called ) came in to speak to our class one day to talk about Islamic practices and culture, he even brought some food for us. It was all very friendly and we found it very interesting, and this was the 80s mind! Plenty of the mothers (with headscarves et al) would help with class plays, jumble sales etc and wold converse in English. I was never in a situation where one of them expected me to speak their native language. I think you are being very unfair.

Let them live like other Irish people. That's my opinion. If they want the continue with their own traditions, let them do so in the privacy of their own homes, or in their own country.

That is a very intolerant attitude to have. I'm Irish and I don't even choose to live 'like other Irish people,' should I move to a different country? You're bordering on outright facism here :eek:

prinz wrote: »

Would you pull it down when you conversed with someone?

Yes because I don't cover myself for reasons of modesty.

Neither does a woman wearing a burka or a niqab incidentally. Personally I wouldn't feel at all comfortable with someone arriving into my place of work wearing a motorcycle helmet and refusing to remove it. I wouldn't feel comfortable sharing a lift with such a person, or eating in a restaurant with such a customer, or being in a shop etc etc.

To be honest you will never be in a situation where you have to work, share a car, even converse with a woman in a burqa so why is it an issue. She is doing absolutely no harm to you. You are choosing to make a problem where there isn't one.

looksee

irishconvert wrote: »

You haven't answered this.



Your point was that you don't agree with covering the face in public. I have provided examples of when western people cover their face and also other things they do to isolate themselves from mainstream society. You now seem to be changing your stance and saying that you don't mind covering face in certain situations but not 100% of the time?

Have you ever interacted with these women? Has it actually caused a problem for you in real life or do you just not like the look of it and are using interaction as an excuse to critise it?

Well since you ask, yes I would be intimidated if a biker/group of bikers with full face helmets came towards me. Not afraid particularly, but uncomfortable. But how often does that happen, when do you see a biker walking down the street with his visor down?

looksee

Truley wrote: »

How much they are set apart is up to you though. Like I said I went to an Educate Together school with alot of muslim kids. It was never a problem for me, in fact one of their religious leaders (I don't know what they're called ) came in to speak to our class one day to talk about Islamic practices and culture, he even brought some food for us. It was all very friendly and we found it very interesting, and this was the 80s mind! Plenty of the mothers (with headscarves et al) would help with class plays, jumble sales etc and wold converse in English. I was never in a situation where one of them expected me to speak their native language. I think you are being very unfair.

I dont see what any of that has to do with women in burquas?

Truley wrote: »

To be honest you will never be in a situation where you have to work, share a car, even converse with a woman in a burqa so why is it an issue. She is doing absolutely no harm to you. You are choosing to make a problem where there isn't one.

You have no idea who will have to work with someone in a burqua. There was at least one teacher in the UK who did her interview in western clothes, then wanted to teach in a burqua.

And no-one is making problems, the question is, how do you feel about meeting a woman in a burqua, which is a perfectly legitimate question. So long as it is legal, then they can do so, but I don't have to be happy about it.

I am trying to think of a culture where if you were a male tourist, you would have to conform to a modesty dress code, and I can't. But if you are female there are a number of places where you would have to cover your arms and legs to conform to local custom. If you were there as a female would you refuse to cover up on the grounds that you were more comfortable with your arms bare? I think it is very likely that just out of respect and courtesy you would do as required.

irishconvert

irishconvert wrote: »

You haven't answered this.

Nope. Generally not a problem with those I don't have to interact with, although I have seen some more traditional setups/fashions which I didn't like.

Your point was that you don't agree with covering the face in public. I have provided examples of when western people cover their face and also other things they do to isolate themselves from mainstream society. You now seem to be changing your stance and saying that you don't mind covering face in certain situations but not 100% of the time?

You provided instances. A person wears a helmet occasionally and for a specific purpose. They don't do it in a pub, a supermarket, a hospital etc.
You haven't provided any similar examples to the Burqua/Niqabi which exist in Irish society. The motorcycle helmet, the disfigured person, the person wearing a scarf in winter aren't similar. Provide an example of someone existing in Irish society (or western culture) who wears such a garment/covering during every interaction with the outside world. And not people that might.

And I haven't changed my stance. I said originally that I was against it in Ireland. Not in their respective countries. And not in the privacy of their own homes. But when in public in Ireland, I would expect them to follow the general culture of the country. i.e. that the face is not hidden.

In their respective countries, where their culture is dominant, I would expect western women to cover themselves, and western men to follow the cultural norms in public. Do you?

have you ever interacted with these women? Has it actually caused a problem for you in real life or do you just not like the look of it and are using interaction as an excuse to critise it?

I've known women with such traditions in Australia, Malaysia, and China. So I've seen and interacted first hand, although TBH it was mostly with their husbands/BFs rather than the women themselves. In their own countries, where it was the norm, I didn't have any problem. I did find it uncomfortable when in countries where the mainstream didn't behave such.

As for my citicism..... its restrained to the public interactions. In their own homes, social communities, or their countries I don't take any issue.

caseyann

I found this and the news related to them.
http://www.danielpipes.org/blog/2006/11/niqabs-and-burqas-as-security-threats

Murder suspect flees UK: It's not been confirmed, but a reliable source indicates that Mustaf Jama, 26, one of Britain's "most wanted" criminals for having murdered Police Constable Sharon Beshenivsky, 38, in November 2005, fled the country during the last week of 2005 and returned to his native Somalia. The picture of Britain's most wanted man, with 21 criminal convictions, had been circulated to every police force, port and airport in the country. He got through by disguising himself as a Muslim woman. Specifically, he adopted his sister's identity, using her passport and by wearing a niqab. Turns out, security personnel at London's Heathrow Airport made no attempt to match his face with her passport picture, even though the airport was on a heightened state of alert after the 7/7 terrorist attack. Indeed, the Times (London) writes that "British immigration officers rarely carry out a visual check to match a passport photograph with a departing female passenger's veiled face." It also adds that, in October 2006, "a male suspect in a major anti-terrorist investigation evaded capture in Britain for several days by dressing in a burka. He was eventually arrested and is awaiting trial." (For more on that case, see "Suspect in terror hunt used veil to evade arrest.") (December 20, 2006)

Bank robbers in London: "You don't have to be Jewish to love Levy's Rye Bread" and you don't have to be Muslim to misuise the niqab. Anthony Roberts, 22, and Nicholas Bidar, 19, stole Muslim clothes from Regent's Park mosque in June 2006 and put them on to conceal their identities for a bank robbery later that day in Kilburn, north London. They waited in the banking hall before rushing guards as they made cash deliveries and collections, then sped away in a waiting car. The pair of thieves pleaded guilty to three counts of theft (including a previous robbery three weeks earlier) and the Kingston crown court in south-west London sentenced them to four and three years in prison, respectively. (February 10, 2007)


In Plain Sight, a Kidnapped Girl Behind a Veil

New York Times/March 14, 2003


http://www.rickross.com/reference/smart/smart11.html

So many different reasons i would prefer if they were forced to keep their faces uncovered.

celticbest

It depends were I meet them, if it's in a bank I worry for security reasons, who's to say that it's not a man with a gun going to hold the place up, somebody wearing a motorcycle helmet would not be allowed in as it's looked on as a security issue, I believe it's a security issue when anybody is wearing anything to cover there face.

At all other time I just think it sad.......:(

Truley

Truley wrote: »

It makes perfect sense to cover your body in a light fabric during hot days, as most of these women come from hotter climates I imagine they serve a functional as well as cultural purpose. Look at the way people dress in the desert, male and female.

Again, and I've said this a few times.... I'm talking about Ireland. How much of this country is desert, and suffers such temperatures?

We both have different ideas of what seperation from society means. 'Society' is not an objective term we all have different levels of participation in 'society.' My GP is from Pakistan, I imagine he speaks his own language and eats his native food at home, I know his wife covers her hair. Yes he sperates himself from the mainstream to an extent but not in other aspects. We have our own native subcultures too, goths, bikers, criminals. I 'seperate' myself in alot of ways, I don't own a car or a tv, I don't shop in places like tesco, I don't read newspapers. I'm probably more seperated from Irish society than alot of foreigners are.

And yet when you walk down the street you don't stand out as being such. The Burqua/Niqabi is like a loudspeaker blaring out that we're different, and we're going to stay different.

How much they are set apart is up to you though. Like I said I went to an Educate Together school with alot of muslim kids. It was never a problem for me, in fact one of their religious leaders (I don't know what they're called ) came in to speak to our class one day to talk about Islamic practices and culture, he even brought some food for us. It was all very friendly and we found it very interesting, and this was the 80s mind! Plenty of the mothers (with headscarves et al) would help with class plays, jumble sales etc and wold converse in English. I was never in a situation where one of them expected me to speak their native language. I think you are being very unfair.

Unfair, why? People themselves set themselves apart. When I lived in China, the westerners who spoke with other westerners, ate western foods, partied only with westerners, refused to join in culturally, set themselves apart. Sure, a westerner will always be a foreigner, but there are degree's of acceptance to be found. I spent my time with Chinese people, ate their food, learned some of their language, traveled as they did, etc. And I was accepted far more than the other westerners I knew. Why? Because I sought to become as much as I could with their cultural norms.

That is a very intolerant attitude to have. I'm Irish and I don't even choose to live 'like other Irish people,' should I move to a different country? You're bordering on outright facism here :eek:

You're taking it to a very obvious extreme. :rolleyes:

prinz

Truley wrote: »

It makes perfect sense to cover your body in a light fabric during hot days, as most of these women come from hotter climates I imagine they serve a functional as well as cultural purpose. Look at the way people dress in the desert, male and female.

It makes no sense to cover yourself in black/navy which is the dominant colour IMO. This also ignores the original reasoning for clothing such as the burka, it was aimed against sand not heat. Using heat as a reason is clutching at straws.

Truley wrote: »

Yes because I don't cover myself for reasons of modesty..

..and that IMO is not a good enough reason. Should someone refuse to remove it if asked by police? Should someone use that defence is asked to remove it entering a bank? Or sitting an exam? If I say I don't want to cover myself for reasons of modesty should I be allowed to go around naked totally naked?

Truley wrote: »

To be honest you will never be in a situation where you have to work, share a car, even converse with a woman in a burqa so why is it an issue. She is doing absolutely no harm to you.

I won't? How so? Odd claim. Do burka and niqab clad women not use shops and services now?

Truley

Sorry I had a big long reply written out then I messed it up. Will reply back later!

looksee

Truley, I think maybe you should stop digging now. You are not doing your argument any good at all.

Lol, well I got a quick look at it! Please ignore this response.

prinz

I'm not sure whereabouts you are Truley, but living and working in Dublin I have seen a good number of burka clad women (or men or whoever) and an even greater number of niqab clad women which really isn't all that different tbh, this thread relates to both those types... so it's very much a real issue as it is. If you want to dress modestly go ahead, but there is no reason whatsoever to habitually cover your face from hairline to chin and refuse to uncover it when asked.

Truley, I saw the post that was emailed to me as an update. Since some of it is directed at me, perhaps it might help to know I am a man, not a woman.

Truley

Hey Klaz I presumed you were a man, don't remember saying otherwise? Sorry I don't know what happened with my post I messed up the quotes and deleted a load of what I said by mistake. I was too busy in work to look over it or fix it.

caseyann

Kepti wrote: »

Saw this nice little guide to the different Muslim veils on the BBC website a week or two ago, for those who may not know the difference.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/shared/spl/hi/pop_ups/05/europe_muslim_veils/html/1.stm

The first third and fourth are not unlike what Irish women wore for mass.
The second i still find belittling and controlling of women.Maybe in Muslim run countries its acceptable and needed as women are in danger when they don't adhere to that law.But in Ireland and other western countries its not necessary.I feel.

Freiheit

I believe in a society where men and women are equal. I'm fearful of a doctrine which confines the female figure to the domestic sphere, I don't feel that's compatible with a society which believes in equality. I accept that not all Islamic women feel oppressed, but they are certainly not equals.

Truley

It's not really encouraging equality if women are forbidden from wearing what they wish. If a woman chooses to wear high heels or skirts she is choosing to act and be seen differently from a man and that is her prerogative. It's not up to other people to make that decision for her.

I completely agree that woman should have to remove covering in situations where there is a security risks, for example banks and airports. And I am genuinely interested in knowing how they go about it in countries where burqas etc are commonplace. I'd imagine they make sure to have women officials or something, like they would for airports here. I don't see why a compromise can't be reached whereby women can still wear the burka/niqab in public but have appropriate procedures in place where identification/ security is an issue.

In reality however the issue is more about people's feelings and judgements than genuine security risks. People are intimidated because they look conspicious, that they are 'blaring out that they are different'. And by allowing muslim women to wear different clothing they are somehow being segregated from mainstream society.

However for all you know the burqa clad woman who passes you in the street could be heavily involved in her local community, she could be a fluent English speaker, she could be a member of the parent's committee; it's not fair to say that she is 'too' seperated from society because of the way she dresses in public. It's only one aspect of her lifestyle and her way of dealing with public life. Plenty of Irish people dress alternatively, plenty of Irish people segregate themselves.

Freiheit

I don't think there is a perfect answer here as one can always say that women are conditioned to accept this dress code, which is dictated by men, therefore it is not truly worn by free will......But I can see the argument that preventing it is also potentially preventing free will too........

As said though I find the Islamic concept of women crude, that the female figure should not be seen in public, that is how Islam views the female shape, that it should only be seen in the domestic realm, well that is repulsive.

prinz

Truley wrote: »

It's not really encouraging equality if women are forbidden from wearing what they wish. If a woman chooses to wear high heels or skirts she is choosing to act and be seen differently from a man and that is her prerogative. It's not up to other people to make that decision for her.

There are lots of things I'd prefer to do that society tells me I can't. Also the laws should apply equally to both sexes and to all such clothing worn without valid reason.

Truley wrote: »

I completely agree that woman should have to remove covering in situations where there is a security risks, for example banks and airports.

What about say exam halls? Hospitals? Schools? Any situation where identity has to be verified? There's a multitude beyond security concerns.

Truley wrote: »

I don't see why a compromise can't be reached whereby women can still wear the burka/niqab in public but have appropriate procedures in place where identification/ security is an issue.

If a woman can stil wear a burka what about a amn wearing balaclava doing his weekly shopping... what about a man with a pillowcase over his head..

Truley wrote: »

Plenty of Irish people dress alternatively, plenty of Irish people segregate themselves.

How many Irish people cover their faces every time they step out the door? That's the difference. There are ways of wearing modest clothing in an 'Islamic' style that does not involve covering the face. No issues at all.

Truley

Freiheit wrote: »

I don't think there is a perfect answer here as one can always say that women are conditioned to accept this dress code, which is dictated by men, therefore it is not truly worn by free will......But I can see the argument that preventing it is also potentially preventing free will too........

You'd be surprised, throughout history some of the most oppressive customs and practices against women (foot binding in China for example) have been strongly enforced by other women. Even in this country girls' magazines which push harmful health and body issues are written largely by women. I know its different in some Islamic countries, but in this country if a woman wears a burka it's through her own choice. If there are cases where she is being coerced that is a different matter altogether and then I agree the law should intervene.

As said though I find the Islamic concept of women crude, that the female figure should not be seen in public, that is how Islam views the female shape, that it should only be seen in the domestic realm, well that is repulsive.

Yes it is an extreamly traditionalistic view but like it or not it's how some people feel. Islam has the same 'crude' views regarding the male form and muslim men are expected to dress conservatively in public, long sleves, hair covered, baggy clothes around the genitals etc It's not just women who are seen this way. And yes it's not my cup of tea but as I am free to dress as I please I try not to force my viewpoint on others. There isn't really a 'right' way of doing things.

prinz wrote: »

There are lots of things I'd prefer to do that society tells me I can't. Also the laws should apply equally to both sexes and to all such clothing worn without valid reason.

There isn't really a 'valid' reason for wearing new rock boots or a nose ring to be honest. But you are right the law should reflect equality, if a woman is allowed to wear a burqa/niqab then so should a man, if he chooses to do so.

What about say exam halls? Hospitals? Schools? Any situation where identity has to be verified? There's a multitude beyond security concerns.

If a woman can stil wear a burka what about a amn wearing balaclava doing his weekly shopping... what about a man with a pillowcase over his head..

How many Irish people cover their faces every time they step out the door? That's the difference. There are ways of wearing modest clothing in an 'Islamic' style that does not involve covering the face. No issues at all.

You're right and as I said before I am interested in finding out how they do things like this in other countries. It's clear there is going to be incessant conflict where one group of people want freedom to dress a certain way and another want to forbid them. I don't see how a compromise can't be reached, banning it outright sounds extreme and counterprogressive ... in my opinion anyway.

prinz

Truley wrote: »

There isn't really a 'valid' reason for wearing new rock boots or a nose ring to be honest. But you are right the law should reflect equality, if a woman is allowed to wear a burqa/niqab then so should a man, if he chooses to do so.

Neither a rock boots nor nose rings obstruct the face. Clutching at straws.
These laws which have been introduced do show equality. The laws apply to everyone - male, female, Muslim or not, burka or balaclava. I don't see why anyone should be exempt from these laws, nor be exempt from arousing suspicion.

Truley wrote: »

You're right and as I said before I am interested in finding out how they do things like this in other countries. It's clear there is going to be incessant conflict where one group of people want freedom to dress a certain way and another want to forbid them. I don't see how a compromise can't be reached, banning it outright sounds extreme and counterprogressive ... in my opinion anyway.

What f the law doesn't refer to a burka or a niqab at all? Like I said there are lots of things I might feel I should have the freedom to do, but society restricts my freedoms, that's tough on me tbh. I am free to relocate. Giving up some freedoms is the price I pay to be part of this society.

Freiheit

How do you know Truley whether women in this country wear the burqua by choice?

Islam views the man as part of the public domain and the female role,not just her body as domestic, it isn't just the covering, it's the meaning behind it, and that is to my senses, revolting.

I've yet to see a man in a burqua.

Truley

prinz wrote: »

Neither a rock boots nor nose rings obstruct the face. Clutching at straws.
These laws which have been introduced do show equality. The laws apply to everyone - male, female, Muslim or not, burka or balaclava. I don't see why anyone should be exempt from these laws, nor be exempt from arousing suspicion.

What f the law doesn't refer to a burka or a niqab at all? Like I said there are lots of things I might feel I should have the freedom to do, but society restricts my freedoms, that's tough on me tbh. I am free to relocate. Giving up some freedoms is the price I pay to be part of this society.

Well first of all you have to establish why burqas should be forbidden by law. Is it for security issues? cultural homogeneity? or just trying to make a statement 'this is how it is though sh*t' 'Society' isn't some unwavering, exclusive entity. Society is a representation of the people who live in it. Laws and customs change every single day. And believe me if a law came into place that you felt was unjust I'd imagine you would do what it takes to protect what you feel are your rights. And it isn't always just a case of relocating, alot of niqab wearers are Irish born and bred, this is their homeplace just as much as it is yours.

Freiheit wrote: »

How do you know Truley whether women in this country wear the burqua by choice?

Islam views the man as part of the public domain and the female role,not just her body as domestic, it isn't just the covering, it's the meaning behind it, and that is to my senses, revolting.

I've yet to see a man in a burqua.

I can't tell when a woman is being forced to wear it or not, that doesn't mean it should be banned with the presumption that all women are being coerced. Some women (sex workers for example) are forced to wear mini skirts and provocative clothing, would you ban mini's?

The only islamic person who has contributed to this thread swore blind that his wife isn't oppressed or coerced into following islamic practices.

And yes I can see you find it 'revolting' but that is your opinion, do you feel it should be enforced on people who don't share it? It may be 'revolting' in your mind but if it can be practiced in a way that doesn't hurt anybody then what's the problem?

prinz

Truley wrote: »

Well first of all you have to establish why burqas should be forbidden by law. Is it for security issues? cultural homogeneity? or just trying to make a statement 'this is how it is though sh*t' .

Again, no such law would apply strictly to burkas so that line is disengenuous from the start. Enforcing such a law would actually be legally enforcing the very equality you seem to care so much about.

Truley wrote: »

'Society' isn't some unwavering, exclusive entity. Society is a representation of the people who live in it. Laws and customs change every single day. And believe me if a law came into place that you felt was unjust I'd imagine you would do what it takes to protect what you feel are your rights.

Laws and customs change.. and yet here you are objecting to a hypothetical new law on the basis of why should it change......
I could come up with a new 'culture' tomorrow, that doesn't mean Irish society must adapt to acknowledge and respect me just because it's new or a change.

Truley wrote: »

And it isn't always just a case of relocating, alot of niqab wearers are Irish born and bred, this is their homeplace just as much as it is yours.

I am Irish born and bred myself. There are things I could legally do abroad that I can't legally do here. That doesn't mean my rights are being infringed upon. I would be free to go somewhere else to indulge myself.

Truley

Truley wrote: »

You'd be surprised, throughout history some of the most oppressive customs and practices against women (foot binding in China for example) have been strongly enforced by other women. Even in this country girls' magazines which push harmful health and body issues are written largely by women. I know its different in some Islamic countries, but in this country if a woman wears a burka it's through her own choice. If there are cases where she is being coerced that is a different matter altogether and then I agree the law should intervene.

Only legally its by her choice. You have no idea of the level of culture/tradition within her household, or community which might enforce the requirements on Islamic law. As with any religious grouping there are families which are more or less tolerant.

I'm friends with an Indian family who still enforces a curfew on their 24 year old daughter by coming over to her home every night to make sure she's at home. They also meet her friends and decide if they're respectable enough. Her husband accepts this as the norm. Legally she's entitled to do as she pleases.... but there's not a chance that she will go against the wishes of her family.

Yes it is an extreamly traditionalistic view but like it or not it's how some people feel. Islam has the same 'crude' views regarding the male form and muslim men are expected to dress conservatively in public, long sleves, hair covered, baggy clothes around the genitals etc It's not just women who are seen this way. And yes it's not my cup of tea but as I am free to dress as I please I try not to force my viewpoint on others. There isn't really a 'right' way of doing things.

Some people? Strange thing to say when we're talking about a religion which has such a strong effect that it permeates their culture and communities. Traditionally, men have more freedom to flaunt the rules of the culture.... Women are expected to observe the traditions, and they will enforce those traditions on other women, in turn.

What people do in the privacy of their own homes as long as it doesn't hurt anyone if perfectly ok with me. Once in public the requirements in my eyes go up quite a bit.

There isn't really a 'valid' reason for wearing new rock boots or a nose ring to be honest. But you are right the law should reflect equality, if a woman is allowed to wear a burqa/niqab then so should a man, if he chooses to do so.

How many men do you see walking down the streets here in Ireland wearing women's dresses? I don't think there's any law against it in this country.

You're right and as I said before I am interested in finding out how they do things like this in other countries. It's clear there is going to be incessant conflict where one group of people want freedom to dress a certain way and another want to forbid them. I don't see how a compromise can't be reached, banning it outright sounds extreme and counterprogressive ... in my opinion anyway.

Well, think of this. To date, its the countries that have allowed complete freedom that have the multi-cultural problems. The countries that pushed their own cultural norms to be dominant don't face the same problems. It might be extreme (not that I think it is having lived in non-western countries), but ultimately it seems better to stop this at the beginning rather than try fix it when the problems/stresses have established themselves.

caseyann

Truley wrote: »

Well first of all you have to establish why burqas should be forbidden by law. Is it for security issues? cultural homogeneity? or just trying to make a statement 'this is how it is though sh*t' 'Society' isn't some unwavering, exclusive entity. Society is a representation of the people who live in it. Laws and customs change every single day. And believe me if a law came into place that you felt was unjust I'd imagine you would do what it takes to protect what you feel are your rights. And it isn't always just a case of relocating, alot of niqab wearers are Irish born and bred, this is their homeplace just as much as it is yours.



I can't tell when a woman is being forced to wear it or not, that doesn't mean it should be banned with the presumption that all women are being coerced. Some women (sex workers for example) are forced to wear mini skirts and provocative clothing, would you ban mini's?

The only islamic person who has contributed to this thread swore blind that his wife isn't oppressed or coerced into following islamic practices.

And yes I can see you find it 'revolting' but that is your opinion, do you feel it should be enforced on people who don't share it? It may be 'revolting' in your mind but if it can be practiced in a way that doesn't hurt anybody then what's the problem?

I am curious how many Irish are born and bred nijab burqa wearers?

irishconvert

Freiheit wrote: »

As said though I find the Islamic concept of women crude, that the female figure should not be seen in public, that is how Islam views the female shape, that it should only be seen in the domestic realm, well that is repulsive.

I find the western concept of women crude, the way women must flaunt their bodies to get what they want. I know many Irish women who openly admit to wearing revealing clothing when doing their driving test or going to a job interview. They have to show their bodies to get what they want whereas men seem to be judged on their ability, not the size of their chest. And what about Hollywood actresses? Very few get anywhere unless they gets their kit off in a movie or for the lads magazines. The same goes for women in the music industry. How many music videos can you think of off the top of your head where the woman is not showing her cleavage, dancing around in a bikini? And as for advertising, so much of it uses women as sexual objects in order to sell something (a recent example is the hunky dorey ads) I find that repulsive. Muslims respects their women and don't want them showing off their bodies to progress in life. For this reason Islam teaches that women should dress modestly.