How do you feel when you encounter a Burqua/Niqabi clad woman?

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But do they walk around with only their eyes showing? Doubt it very much.

And you're basing that doubt on what exactly?

The wear the full set up when they're going into the more traditional districts, or when entering any place of religious significance. In their work environments, for the most part, they can get away with dressing demurely, but without the face coverings. Some sort of covering over their hair though.

I've never lived abroad no but as I said unless there was a legal requirement for me to do so I wouldn't cover myself completely. I would of course dress conservatively ie long sleeves, trousers, long skirts.

Ok, but if there was a possibility that you would have stones thrown at you, people spitting at you, or other such nastiness because you chose to dress
conservatively rather than respecting their culture...

You do realise for many cultures and places out there, making half a gesture is just as insulting as not making at effort at all?

AudreyHepburn

AudreyHepburn wrote: »

But you are. You seem to suggest it is just another cultural practice and that if we are to accept women covering their faces we could just easily accept little girls and young women being mutilated.

At least that's how it seemed from your post.

I take your point. As long as its not physically harming anyone then its ok. And my example is about physical harm, so it should not be allowed.

Fair enough.

AudreyHepburn

Deleted User wrote: »

And you're basing that doubt on what exactly?

The wear the full set up when they're going into the more traditional districts, or when entering any place of religious significance. In their work environments, for the most part, they can get away with dressing demurely, but without the face coverings. Some sort of covering over their hair though.

Exactly my point. They don't have to wear it all the time. Nor would I if I didn't have to.

Ok, but if there was a possibility that you would have stones thrown at you, people spitting at you, or other such nastiness because you chose to dress
conservatively rather than respecting their culture...

You do realise for many cultures and places out there, making half a gesture is just as insulting as not making at effort at all?

Can you give any examples of western women being stoned etc for not covering up?

Not being snide here just curious btw.

lisawashere

some women that wear niqabs or burkas talk **** about other (muslim)women that choose not to, saying they are sluts

irishconvert

lisawashere wrote: »

some women that wear niqabs or burkas talk **** about other (muslim)women that choose not to, saying they are sluts

There were a group of women like that in the mosque I attend. When the Imam found out he had stern words with them and told them such behaviour was not welcome in the mosque.

lisawashere

irishconvert wrote: »

There were a group of women like that in the mosque I attend. When the Imam found out he had stern words with them and told them such behaviour was not welcome in the mosque.

But it is OK for them to do that whenever they are not IN the mosque?

irishconvert

lisawashere wrote: »

But it is OK for them to do that whenever they are not IN the mosque?

Erm, what?

looksee

There is a very interesting site here http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/11774
I do not know if this is 'mainstream' Muslim, or as far off the mark as some of the Christian fundamentalists, but it does say quite clearly that there is a religious requirement for women to cover themselves and their entire face.

What is interesting is the reason for this. It is entirely to avoid offering temptation to men. Allah has required it, but only because men should not have to suffer temptation at the sight of a woman's skin, even, in some situations, her hands. I find a lot of things wrong with this attitude, not least that the poor unfortunate men are so pathetic that they cannot control their sexual urges and have to have temptation removed from their sight.

Interestingly, the one situation where a man can look at a woman, even without her knowing, is when he is going to propose marriage, presumably to make sure she is in fact good looking.

So if it is a religious requirement, why are there some Muslims who say it is not?

As to obedience to husbands, this question and answer gives food for thought. http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/119858 You may not have an abortion unless your husband says you must!

lisawashere

"How do you feel when you encounter a Burqua/Niqabi clad woman?"

If I was muslim and/or of arabic decent I would feel threatened because she may think that I am a slut who is not wearing one. If people would be talking behind my back saying that I was "a whore", and my family found out about these rumours, I could become a target of "honour"-violence.

caseyann

looksee wrote: »

There is a very interesting site here http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/11774
I do not know if this is 'mainstream' Muslim, or as far off the mark as some of the Christian fundamentalists, but it does say quite clearly that there is a religious requirement for women to cover themselves and their entire face.

What is interesting is the reason for this. It is entirely to avoid offering temptation to men. Allah has required it, but only because men should not have to suffer temptation at the sight of a woman's skin, even, in some situations, her hands. I find a lot of things wrong with this attitude, not least that the poor unfortunate men are so pathetic that they cannot control their sexual urges and have to have temptation removed from their sight.

Interestingly, the one situation where a man can look at a woman, even without her knowing, is when he is going to propose marriage, presumably to make sure she is in fact good looking.

So if it is a religious requirement, why are there some Muslims who say it is not?

As to obedience to husbands, this question and answer gives food for thought. http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/119858 You may not have an abortion unless your husband says you must!

I believe thats one of the reasons i feel shouldnt be accepted in our countries,because you can never tell if they are given the option to not wear one.And others might be afraid not to wear your face hidden and their hands.If they want to follow such rules then stay at home,but from what i have seen on documentaries they are fighting to have such things banned also.

Truley

prinz wrote: »

I assume you won't have an issue then with funeral pyres on the quays in Dublin then, followed by ashes being floated downstream etc.

From Wikipedia...

In February, 2010, a court of appeals in the United Kingdom ruled that a cremation on an open pyre would be legal inside of a building with an open roof, well away from roads and homes.[3]

As for having a funeral pyre on the quays in Dublin - no. Because there would be health and safety issues, it is highly invasive and harmful to other people, and most of all, nobody has ever expressed a desire to do it. I said I would embrace any culture that poses no harm or threat to anyone else. Cremating dead bodies in the middle of a busy urban street would be considered harmful ... by any stretch.

Deleted User wrote: »

Ahh, well, then we should let the Chinese have three days of mourning of the dead, with the loudest fireworks possible to ward off evil spirits. It harms no-one after all. I can still remember when my neighbors father in my apartment died.. three days of little sleep. Fireworks (bangers) in the morning, and afternoon, and banging of pots and other such implements at night. And thats a rather cute and harmless example of other cultural norms, which many people would take exception to in this country.

So where do we draw the line? My example above is part of the ethnic culture of many chinese backgrounds, but wouldn't be allowed for many reasons in this country.. Should we now allow such?

You're not comparing like with like. Fireworks etc are illegal in this country for a reason. It's invasive and potentially very dangerous. I'd hardly compare it to a woman wearing a vail over her face.

Subvert? I think I made my stance rather clear earlier regarding the setting up of other cultures running parallel with our own. Its not as if these cultural practices would be accepted into our own culture, or that our culture would meld with their. Islamic culture keeps itself apart from any alien influences. While on a public front they may partake in small intake of other cultures, the core focus is always the continuance of their own culture/religion.

So there won't be the case of their practices joining hand in hand with our own.

You're making a huuuuuge generalisation there. Are you speaking for every single muslim in this country? It certainly hasn't been my personal experience with muslims. And my direct experience with muslims probably runs far deeper than anyone else on this thread.

I can imagine quite a few parents taking exception to having a teacher who's face was covered while teaching their children, in addition to the non-curriculum aspects they might impart. Such a dress code would raise questions regarding religion, position, etc that many parents would prefer left unspoken until elder years. And what of the male teachers (western) who work in the school, or male doctors in the hospital?

As I said already, women aren't expected to keep their faces covered around children, male or female. And I would imagine if a woman is devout enough to wear a burqa then she is probably devout enough to remain out of the workforce, at least a workforce that exposes her to non-related men (hospitals etc) Hasn't been an issue in this country as far as I am aware.

Clawdeeus

irishconvert wrote: »

I don't like burqa. It is unnecessary under Islamic law. However I do respect the right of a woman to wear one if she chooses to do so.

Very well put, hate the idea of a woman wearing one, hate a western society banning it more.

Still its hard to tell if it a womans choice, Im no too sure about this, so correct me if I am wrong, but there is usually enormous familial and economic (if she does not conform, she is cut off) pressure for a woman to wear it. So the idea of one having a free choice is somewhat ambigious. In this case.

But because I cannot imagine how to determine this, I say let the woman/ family decide.

vicecreamsundae

I think I have only once seen a woman wear the Burqa, i far more often see or interact with women wearing the other types of scarves.

I don't feel uncomfortable around the women who wear the less extreme-looking scarves at all. I barely register the hijab. As for the other kinds,I suppose I just sometimes feel curious about them, for example when I notice women with irish accents wearing them I wonder if they have been raised islamic, chose it independently, or if it had anything to do with marrying an islamic man, not that it's any of my business, as obviously when I meet a woman not wearing a scarf I don't start questioning her religion. I just notice that I see quite a lot of young irish or english women in islamic dress who happen to have young children with them, and wonder "did they become islamic and then fall in love with an islamic guy, or the other way around?"

The burqa creeps me out a bit, in the same way that the odd time i see a monk it creeps me out. I guess it's because to me, it looks so much more like a costume than simply a piece of clothing. it looks eerie, simply because it is strange to me. [and reminds me a bit of how in the book The Handmaid's Tale the handmaids are forced to wear modest clothes with bonnets that are effectively, blinkers] In saying that I fully support a woman's right to wear it, and do not think that anybody HAS to show their face in public, if they don't want to. [apart from high security settings]. I oppose banning it, as i oppose banning any form of clothing -that's an idea i find more conservative than the garment itself.

Truley

Truley wrote: »

You're not comparing like with like. Fireworks etc are illegal in this country for a reason. It's invasive and potentially very dangerous. I'd hardly compare it to a woman wearing a vail over her face.

Again you're missing the point. You, and others here, have made the point that wearing the veil is a cultural right. Well, I'm saying that there are many practices out there by cultures which either aren't allowed in this country (for various indirect reasons) or banned outright for heath/safety/etc reasons.

Where do you draw the line? Is it just a matter of safety? Will you advocate the right to have any cultural practices that don't directly harm anyone?

And I still don't really understand why you have such a problem with banning of face coverings. Many other countries have done so for various reasons, many with much larger Muslim populations than our own. Have you considered the various reasons as to why they have been banned or encouraged not to wear them?

You're making a huuuuuge generalisation there. Are you speaking for every single muslim in this country? It certainly hasn't been my personal experience with muslims. And my direct experience with muslims probably runs far deeper than anyone else on this thread.

And you're making your own assumptions here. Tell me this. Does Islam and Islamic practices encourage the breakdown of barriers and cultural integration? (And leave out the crap about generalizations. neither of us are going to speak about individuals. There are always exceptions to any statement regarding people)

I generally don't have any issue with the religion itself. As religions go, it's probably one of the nicest. But the cultural aspects of the religion encourage its participants to be kept removed from society. In an Eastern country its not such an issue, but this is Ireland. We don't have a history of such practices and it just serves to remind constantly of the differences.

Can you honestly tell me that its a good thing?

As I said already, women aren't expected to keep their faces covered around children, male or female. And I would imagine if a woman is devout enough to wear a burqa then she is probably devout enough to remain out of the workforce, at least a workforce that exposes her to non-related men (hospitals etc) Hasn't been an issue in this country as far as I am aware.

This is the problem I have. This tendency to leave everything until it becomes a problem. And then having to invest massive resources to attempt fix the problem after. Most countries that have allowed the free practice of multiple cultures to exist in their own borders have serious issues with multicultural problems.

Why do we have to wait until we have a problem? Why can't we step in now, and put in measures to control the potential problem?

Truley

Deleted User wrote: »

Again you're missing the point. You, and others here, have made the point that wearing the veil is a cultural right. Well, I'm saying that there are many practices out there by cultures which either aren't allowed in this country (for various indirect reasons) or banned outright for heath/safety/etc reasons.

I am aware of that, and just because I'm in favour of women being allowed to wear face veils doesn't mean I'm in favour of every single practice that has cultural significance. Least of all practices that involve setting off dangerous fireworks in residential areas. I don't think the burqa needs to be completely outlawed for health/safety reasons, compromises can be easily reached.

Where do you draw the line? Is it just a matter of safety? Will you advocate the right to have any cultural practices that don't directly harm anyone?

In a word, yes. If it isn't harmful then I don't think it should be outlawed.

And I still don't really understand why you have such a problem with banning of face coverings. Many other countries have done so for various reasons, many with much larger Muslim populations than our own. Have you considered the various reasons as to why they have been banned or encouraged not to wear them?

Yes, and I'm aware that different countries have outlawed it for differing reasons. However I believe France and Belgium have outlawed it for all the wrong reasons. I think it was more about sending out a big 'f*ck you' to the Islamic population and scaremongering their native citizens more than any kind of genuine security risk. Have you seen some of the statements Mr Sarkozy has made about immigrants in France? He's pretty horrific, not a man I look up to.

And you're making your own assumptions here. Tell me this. Does Islam and Islamic practices encourage the breakdown of barriers and cultural integration? (And leave out the crap about generalizations. neither of us are going to speak about individuals. There are always exceptions to any statement regarding people)

All religions are self-preserving, and that includes christianity. That's the very essence of organised religion, nobody is denying that. Religion is only one aspect of people's lives. I think you can be a practicing muslim and still speak English, send your kids to national school, partake in the Irish workforce, buy your groceries in Ireland, pay taxes, make friends, be involved in the community. The muslim religion doesn't encourage cultural barriers any more than the bible does.

I generally don't have any issue with the religion itself. As religions go, it's probably one of the nicest. But the cultural aspects of the religion encourage its participants to be kept removed from society. In an Eastern country its not such an issue, but this is Ireland. We don't have a history of such practices and it just serves to remind constantly of the differences.

Can you honestly tell me that its a good thing?

I have alot of muslim friends, coworkers and classmates, I am on friendly terms with at least half a dozen families from Turkey, Sudan, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan, I have been able to interact with all of them with few 'barriers.' My experience with Muslim people has clearly not been the same as yours though. But I think you should really consider whether the issue is the existance of conspiciously 'different' people or your attitude towards conspiciously different people.

This is the problem I have. This tendency to leave everything until it becomes a problem. And then having to invest massive resources to attempt fix the problem after. Most countries that have allowed the free practice of multiple cultures to exist in their own borders have serious issues with multicultural problems.

Why do we have to wait until we have a problem? Why can't we step in now, and put in measures to control the potential problem?

Exactly, I'm not denying that. I just don't see a reason why measures can't be put in place to deal with potential security risks without completely outlawing burqa wearing. As I said before I am interested in knowing how it's done in other countries. How do airports/banks go about this in the Middle East? Can it be adapted here?

We're going around in circles for the most part now. Personally, I favor the banning of face coverings regardless of the cultural/religious connection.

It serves to keep people apart from the general society, and also serves to constantly remind others of the differences between cultures. While this can be a good thing in other areas, such as food, music, etc, the dress code doesn't help. Modern Multiculturalism has shown the problems with allowing such practices to exist. And there is nothing to suggest that Ireland won't face the same problems as other countries in allowing such practices. There are many countries, both western and eastern, that have laws against their use and it is an obvious way to prevent the problems from growing in our society.

There is no reason that Ireland has to be more "free" than other countries. We should be doing what is right for this country. And frankly I see no benefits of allowing face covering for other cultures. Instead I see negatives, and I haven't heard any argument here that has suggested any positives. instead it is a argument of rights. And rights get trampled on or removed on a regular basis.

Instead, the practical considerations must be considered. Do the benefits of allowing the face covering outweigh the negatives? IMHO, they don't, and therefore the ban should be put in place.

That's my piece done. Can't see any point arguing in circles about this.

albeit

There is a strange way of thinking around these things pervading the debate about this- let's not be conservative about this most conservative occurence.

irishconvert

Why have we drifted into talking about banning burquas or not. There is already at least 2 very large threads on this. The OP's question was how do we feel when we see a woman in one.

old_aussie

And how would we know it's a woman?