lighting in attic to prevent pipes freezing ??

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

..seai insulate all attic pipework and water tanks for a start

Insulating pipe work with Aero tube, it's only fit for keeping concrete off pipe work under the floor of a house. Tanks are being insulated with those black kits which cause the tank to sweat which runs down the outside wall of the tank onto your timber base.

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

..pumping walls and attic insulation is also a separate issue to protecting vulnerable pipework

The more attic insulation the higher the risk of pipe work freezing unless you insulate up under the felt and slate. They are also putting extra air vents along sofits (2" vents every 8"-12") making attics colder. I have 60 of them on each side of mine, 120 total as well as the 16 existing one's.

GreeBo

Froststop wrote: »

The more attic insulation the higher the risk of pipe work freezing unless you insulate up under the felt and slate. They are also putting extra air vents along sofits (2" vents every 8"-12") making attics colder. I have 60 of them on each side of mine, 120 total as well as the 16 existing one's.

So is the problem your extra insulation or the lack of protection for pipework?
Again, you cant blame SEAI for increasing the levels of insulation, just because there are some knock-on effects.

Froststop

GreeBo wrote: »

So is the problem your extra insulation or the lack of protection for pipework?
Again, you cant blame SEAI for increasing the levels of insulation, just because there are some knock-on effects.

The more insulation in the attic, the less heat loss through ceilings, the colder the attic is. The houses with most damage during 2010 were newer houses with better insulation levels.

Insulation companies and SEAI IMO have not considered the knock on effects which are serious knock on effects when thousands of Euros worth of flood damage is caused and they did not inform customers of the potential problems before the insulation upgrade is carried out, some home owners who got attics insulated under grant schemes were told it saves on heating bills (which is good) & improves protection against freezing pipes (which it does not).

GreeBo

Froststop wrote: »

The more insulation in the attic, the less heat loss through ceilings, the colder the attic is. The houses with most damage during 2010 were newer houses with better insulation levels.

Insulation companies and SEAI IMO have not considered the knock on effects which are serious knock on effects when thousands of Euros worth of flood damage is caused and they did not inform customers of the potential problems before the insulation upgrade is carried out, some home owners who got attics insulated under grant schemes were told it saves on heating bills (which is good) & improves protection against freezing pipes (which it does not).

Which is why I said that the problem lies with whomever did the work, not SEAI.

You have a problem with SEAI, imo preventing burst pipes is not their remit.
Do you have any documentation that shows SEAI saying it protects against freezing pipes? I've never seen that mentioned.

Froststop

GreeBo wrote: »

Which is why I said that the problem lies with whomever did the work, not SEAI.

You have a problem with SEAI, imo preventing burst pipes is not their remit.
Do you have any documentation that shows SEAI saying it protects against freezing pipes? I've never seen that mentioned.

I didn't say they mention it, or that I have a problem with SEAI.

People are getting the wrong idea that insulating attics & pipe work will prevent freezing.

If you look back the post's, I said,
"IMO SEAI will have a lot to answer for if we get another cold spell due to home being insulated to a higher grade. We like to keep the heat in but it has it's draw backs".

SEAI advise to insulate cavities & attics (which is a good thing for various reasons) but they are not considering/advising the potential knock on effect.

IMO there's not much point in advising or doing something which could potentially cause a bigger problem in the long run, & if you do, then people should be advised. It's too late when water's coming down through the ceiling and the new insulation in the attic has to be replaced also.

tomdempsey200

maybe i'm confused here


i was referring to warmer homes where they do a thorough job of insulating pipes and tanks in attic as well as insulating house/attic



now if it's the case that venting and insulating the attic/house is done in isolation resulting in freezing pipes ...well if it's not part of the work schedule the customer should at least be notified of the risk

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

maybe i'm confused here

i was referring to warmer homes where they do a thorough job of insulating pipes and tanks in attic as well as insulating house/attic

That's fine where a good job is done to keep in the heat and save on bills, but insulating pipes does not guarantee against freezing and too many home owners think they are safe after getting the job done. How they come to this conclusion I don't know. I have seen attic pipe work being re-insulated with aero tube where a higher grade insulation had been removed. I asked the home owner why & they said it's supposed to be done to SEAI spec. This is probably because the spec is not clear enough and suggests only insulation thickness rather than insulation brand or type.
IMO that house is now at a higher risk of having frozen/burst pipes if we get another 2010.

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

now if it's the case that venting and insulating the attic/house is done in isolation resulting in freezing pipes ...well if it's not part of the work schedule the customer should at least be notified of the risk

I agree! this is the point I'm trying to make, insulating the attic & cavities makes sense for economical reasons, fitting pipe insulation is included in the work schedule through SEAI and their contractors, even though I refused to allow them touch my pipe work. But when the attic is going to be colder, there is still a risk of freezing pipes. People are not being advised that they should still to take steps to protect pipe work.

Doubling up on pipe insulation may provide an extra day or two of protection.
After 48-72hrs depending on constant freezing attic temps, pipes are at risk no matter what insulation is fitted and once they freeze, it depends on how fast the thawing process takes place in order to have a burst. This is why in estates around the country in 2010, identical houses experienced some suffering from a frozen pipes, some having burst pipes while others had none. It all depends on the house, how long freezing attic temps last, prevailing winds in the vents, etc. In fact a lot who escaped, may have done so because their mains was frozen coming into the house, resulting in tanks and pipe work being drained after the first day or two.

tomdempsey200

Froststop wrote: »

That's fine where a good job is done to keep in the heat and save on bills, but insulating pipes does not guarantee against freezing and too many home owners think they are safe after getting the job done. How they come to this conclusion I don't know. I have seen attic pipe work being re-insulated with aero tube where a higher grade insulation had been removed. I asked the home owner why & they said it's supposed to be done to SEAI spec. This is probably because the spec is not clear enough and suggests only insulation thickness rather than insulation brand or type.
IMO that house is now at a higher risk of having frozen/burst pipes if we get another 2010.



I agree! this is the point I'm trying to make, insulating the attic & cavities makes sense for economical reasons, fitting pipe insulation is included in the work schedule through SEAI and their contractors, even though I refused to allow them touch my pipe work. But when the attic is going to be colder, there is still a risk of freezing pipes. People are not being advised that they should still to take steps to protect pipe work.

Doubling up on pipe insulation may provide an extra day or two of protection.
After 48-72hrs depending on constant freezing attic temps, pipes are at risk no matter what insulation is fitted and once they freeze, it depends on how fast the thawing process takes place in order to have a burst. This is why in estates around the country in 2010, identical houses experienced some suffering from a frozen pipes, some having burst pipes while others had none. It all depends on the house, how long freezing attic temps last, prevailing winds in the vents, etc. In fact a lot who escaped, may have done so because their mains was frozen coming into the house, resulting in tanks and pipe work being drained after the first day or two.

have there been instances of burst pipework after the seai contractors have insulated pipework and tanks? or not?

they seem to do a very thorough job on the warmer homes scheme anyhow

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

have there been instances of burst pipework after the seai contractors have insulated pipework and tanks? or not?

they seem to do a very thorough job on the warmer homes scheme anyhow

I have come across houses in 2010 with burst pipes and over 12" of attic insulation with pipe work insulated with 22mm wall insulation as per SEAI spec. I can't say if it was done when building or if SEAI contractors did it after it was built.

They do a good job, don't get me wrong, they are going by what SEAI recommend/spec, They did a good job in my own house. The problem is home owners don't realise they are still be at risk. I just see potential problems after seeing what happened back in 2010. Up until then I always though if you lag a pipe it would be OK, especially indoors.

tomdempsey200

Froststop wrote: »

I have come across houses in 2010 with burst pipes and over 12" of attic insulation with pipe work insulated with 22mm wall insulation as per SEAI spec. I can't say if it was done when building or if SEAI contractors did it after it was built.

They do a good job, don't get me wrong, they are going by what SEAI recommend/spec, They did a good job in my own house. The problem is home owners don't realise they are still be at risk. I just see potential problems after seeing what happened back in 2010. Up until then I always though if you lag a pipe it would be OK, especially indoors.

ok but do you have any evidence of the risk after the seai?


such as customer burst pipes

i'd certainly be surprised based on what i saw...now i'm only a electrician so..:)

Froststop

tomdempsey200 wrote: »

ok but do you have any evidence of the risk after the seai?


such as customer burst pipes

i'd certainly be surprised based on what i saw...now i'm only a electrician so..:)

I am going by what I saw when repairing burst pipes during 2010. Some 22mm thick pipe insulation and +12" of attic insulation which is as per SEAI spec, so it's doesn't matter who did the insulating. Black plastic tank insulation kits with condensation streaming down the outside of the tank onto timber tank supports, which will rot in time, as per SEAI spec. SEAI spec/regs are not all their cracked up to be.

One of the top 5 Inspection findings by SEAI inspectors is poor quality pipe insulation during 2011 which is after the cold spells. I believe this is to do with SEAI not specifying lagging type, if they only specify thickness the companies will use what ever they can buy on the cheap.

Have you evidence to suggest that a home with an SEAI regulation insulation job will not ever have frozen pipes?