House prices still too high!

bryaner

Benedict wrote: »

The average worker earns about 35K per annum. He she should be able to purchase an average house for between 3 and four times that amount. In Dublin, the average house is 10 times the average wage.

End of story.

Muck it's been a long time since one person applied for a mortgage 90% of the time it's a couple, and 350k is not the average price of a house in Dublin..

Get your facts right bene

bryaner

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Even if we assume an average Dublin salary is €40,000 (and I doubt it is that high), then 5x that is the absolute maximum somebody could borrow. Sensibly, it should be as low as 3x. But whatever, I looked in South Dublin for a €200,000 "average house".

This 2-bed is €175,000 and is in Kimmage:


www.daft.ie/1531667

Is that an "average" house?

Another 2-bed in Drimnagh, €200,000:
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=525597

The first 3-bed I could find at €200,000 is in Ballyfermott:
http://www.daft.ie/searchsale.daft?id=521965

Now, you'll excuse me OMD, but those are not "average" homes. They are tradtional working class homes. They are below average. And yet 5x an above average salary can't buy them? How on earth do we square that circle?



Deloitte's Tax Calculator says that €38,000 is €2,300 pm:

http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/Results.aspx

33% of that is €759. That is a 40 year mortgage at 3.8%. To put that another way, the longest possible mortgage term at a below-trend long term rate in order to buy a dereclict 2-bed in Crumlin, or 3-bed in Ballyfermott.

The very best of luck to anyone who thinks that's "average" or normal or sustainable or the future. It's none of those things.

That happens to be average for a lot of people, obviously your a celtic tiger child!

OMD

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Even if we assume an average Dublin salary is €40,000 (and I doubt it is that high), then 5x that is the absolute maximum somebody could borrow. Sensibly, it should be as low as 3x. But whatever, I looked in South Dublin for a €200,000 "average house".



Now, you'll excuse me OMD, but those are not "average" homes. They are tradtional working class homes. They are below average. And yet 5x an above average salary can't buy them? How on earth do we square that circle?

To Treehouse and Guramok, the ESRI quarterly price index says average house price in Ireland was €204,830 in March 2010. There is more to Ireland than South County Dublin. I think we can safely assume prices have continued to fall in the last 3 months so that means the average property in IRELAND is less than €200,000.

On DAFT as we speak there are 39,313 properties advertised with an asking price of 200K or less and 45519 with an asking price of 200K or more.

Treehouse72 wrote: »

Deloitte's Tax Calculator says that €38,000 is €2,300 pm:

http://www.deloitte.ie/tc/Results.aspx

I used http://taxcalc.eu/ . Married person, earning 38,000 a year takes home €2696. I rounded up the last 4 euro to give €2700

EDIT: I just used your Tax calculator and got the same result €2696

bryaner

bryaner wrote: »

That happens to be average for a lot of people

Indeed, I live about a mile from Cork City centre and there are loads and loads of estates that comprise of those houses or very similar about. I also lived in Dublin for a few years and many of the suburbs there have the same, so too Galway, Limerick.......... every large town in the country. Most definitely an average home, particularly for folks on the average wage.

Bendedict dude, why not post a link to the sort of house you wish to buy ?

gurramok

bryaner wrote:

Muck it's been a long time since one person applied for a mortgage 90% of the time it's a couple,

Since when and where is your source for the 90%?

OMD wrote: »

To Treehouse and Guramok, the ESRI quarterly price index says average house price in Ireland was €204,830 in March 2010. There is more to Ireland than South County Dublin. I think we can safely assume prices have continued to fall in the last 3 months so that means the average property in IRELAND is less than €200,000.

On DAFT as we speak there are 39,313 properties advertised with an asking price of 200K or less and 45519 with an asking price of 200K or more.

Not just "South County Dublin", there is a northside and a westside too (as well as other cities where people want to live)

I had asked..

me wrote:

What interest rates and have you taken into account of singletons in urban areas?
And above all, what gaff can you get for 205k in a safe urban area?

No answer yet

OMD

gurramok wrote: »

What interest rates and have you taken into account of singletons in urban areas?

Interest rates come from EBS website for 1st time buyers.
http://online.ebs.ie/internet/forms/loan_centre/repayment_calculator.jsp

I used a married couple as my example. Obviously it would be more affordable for a singleton. Slightly less takehome pay but less expenses also.

gurramok wrote: »

And above all, what gaff can you get for 205k in a safe urban area?

I don't know. You would have to check yourself. I was talking about average house prices in Ireland not average house price that Gurramok would live in.

OMD

Benedict wrote: »

Don't take my word for it. Surf Daft or Myhome and see what you can get for an asking price of much under 342K.

On DAFT tonight 1603 3 bed houses for sale in Dublin for less than 350K, 646 at 350k or above.is

gurramok

OMD wrote: »

Interest rates come from EBS website for 1st time buyers.
http://online.ebs.ie/internet/forms/loan_centre/repayment_calculator.jsp

I used a married couple as my example. Obviously it would be more affordable for a singleton. Slightly less takehome pay but less expenses also.

Record low IR. http://www.ebs.ie/site/all/Home%20Loan%20Rates?opendocument

At least the 10yr fixed or maybe the 5yr fixed is attractive.

OMD wrote: »

I don't know. You would have to check yourself. I was talking about average house prices in Ireland not average house price that Gurramok would live in.

Have checked many times

Anywhere in Dublin city and suburbs that has amenities and outside junkie central will suffice, feck all available unless I want to live in a shoebox.

Mr. Presentable

gurramok wrote: »

What interest rates and have you taken into account of singletons in urban areas?
And above all, what gaff can you get for 205k in a safe urban area?

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/103-seskin-view-road-tallaght/215507

Treehouse72

bryaner wrote: »

That happens to be average for a lot of people, obviously your a celtic tiger child!

This is why having a debate anywhere on the Property forum on boards.ie is pretty much pointless.

I'm afraid too many people have too many chips on their shoulders, or are too ignorant to read properly or too thick to understand what they read. Either way, you end up with obtuse, idiotic posts like this way too often.

gurramok

nipplenuts wrote: »

http://www.myhome.ie/residential/brochure/103-seskin-view-road-tallaght/215507

Also No.9. Two houses in Tallaght while the rest around them are circa 250,000, not much choice there. Average in that area seems to be about 240k give or take.

Anymore to get an average of 205k?

OMD

Treehouse72 wrote: »

This is why having a debate anywhere on the Property forum on boards.ie is pretty much pointless.

I'm afraid too many people have too many chips on their shoulders, or are too ignorant to read properly or too thick to understand what they read. Either way, you end up with obtuse, idiotic posts like this way too often.

He has a point though, if expressed badly. You referred to a person on€40k a year and said they should be able to get an average property for 5 times their income. The reality is, someone on this income can get the majority of properties in Ireland for less than 5 times their income. It will cost less than 35% of their take home pay on a 25 year mortgage even if they go for a 10 year fixed rate. It will also leave them with more than €1500 left over a month.

Now, none of these suit you and that is fine. I think you are right that prices will fall further but it does not change thefact that the majority of properties fall into this price range.

gurramok

OMD wrote: »

He has a point though, if expressed badly. You referred to a person on€40k a year and said they should be able to get an average property for 5 times their income. The reality is, someone on this income can get the majority of properties in Ireland for less than 5 times their income. It will cost less than 35% of their take home pay on a 25 year mortgage even if they go for a 10 year fixed rate. It will also leave them with more than €1500 left over a month.

Now, none of these suit you and that is fine. I think you are right that prices will fall further but it does not change thefact that the majority of properties fall into this price range.

Thing is, wages outside Dublin/Cork tend to be lower than in the cities so that person on 40k is fewer in number which means fewer potential buyers and 40k would not really be an average wage in that case.

Also what they get for 205k in the countryside would have to be near their place of work to make it worthwhile and not in the middle of nowhere like Ballivor.

Mr. Presentable

gurramok wrote: »

Also No.9. Two houses in Tallaght while the rest around them are circa 250,000, not much choice there. Average in that area seems to be about 240k give or take.

Anymore to get an average of 205k?

But your question was "what gaff can you get for 205k in a safe urban area?"

I offered one. Now you want to change the parameters of your question because the answer doesn't suit your pint of view?

OMD

gurramok wrote: »

Thing is, wages outside Dublin/Cork tend to be lower than in the cities so that person on 40k is fewer in number which means fewer potential buyers and 40k would not really be an average wage in that case.

Also what they get for 205k in the countryside would have to be near their place of work to make it worthwhile and not in the middle of nowhere like Ballivor.

3 months ago the average price of a property in Ireland was €205k. I am now guessing the price is less than 200k. That is all properties in Dublin and out of Dublin just like average wage is based on all wages in Dublin and out of Dublin. Obviously the average property outside Dublin & Cork would be substantially less than 200k. This lower price would offset any differences in wages

by the way there are 3700 properties for sale for less than €75,000 today.

gurramok

nipplenuts wrote: »

But your question was "what gaff can you get for 205k in a safe urban area?"

I offered one. Now you want to change the parameters of your question because the answer doesn't suit your pint of view?

Nope, the question was about averages. You presented one about 5% below average. On the myhome site result you presented, the rest of the properties are about 20%+ higher which means the average of 205k is not valid.

OMD wrote: »

3 months ago the average price of a property in Ireland was €205k. I am now guessing the price is less than 200k. That is all properties in Dublin and out of Dublin just like average wage is based on all wages in Dublin and out of Dublin. Obviously the average property outside Dublin & Cork would be substantially less than 200k. This lower price would offset any differences in wages

by the way there are 3700 properties for sale for less than €75,000 today.

That depends if people want to live in those areas with the cheapest housing. Obviously if they are not selling at those prices around the countryside, there is no demand for them.

Oh, there are actually 2,923 properties under that price in ROI.

I don't think you examined the results in detail as many of them are sites.

fliball123

Hi all,

This debate will go on until the trend starts going up. Can anyone tell when prices will stop falling or start rising. I don't think so I aggress with both sides of the argument. I have came down on the side of saying that within a year so June 2011 I reckon that the properties will have stablised. Now I aint telling anyone to go out and buy a property but there is value for money out there and there is wiggle room in all prices.

be careful and good luck to anyone who needs to buy but personally I would hold off for another 6 - 12 months.

gurramok

fliball123 wrote: »

Hi all,

This debate will go on until the trend starts going up. Can anyone tell when prices will stop falling or start rising. I don't think so I aggress with both sides of the argument. I have came down on the side of saying that within a year so June 2011 I reckon that the properties will have stablised. Now I aint telling anyone to go out and buy a property but there is value for money out there and there is wiggle room in all prices.

be careful and good luck to anyone who needs to buy but personally I would hold off for another 6 - 12 months.

They will stabilise at some point. The debate is when. I'd say watch the economy along with IR's and sentiment.

Again, value for money in my opinion is not available in Dublin for example. It maybe available in Athlone or Ballivor, but that's dependent on lifestyle choices(lower wage locally and/or long commute to job)

fliball123

Gurramok you will always have to pay higher prices for property in the heavier population density areas and most desirable areas this is geographical fact around the world. I mean look at the states the difference between a shoebox appartment on say 5th avenue and a country ranch in Kansas. Big difference in price. Thats just off the top of my head and that is where we are heading the likes of Dublin/Galway/Cork will always be streets ahead of the likes of BallyJamesDuff or Muff in donegal. (great name by the way) muuuufff haha

gurramok

fliball123 wrote: »

Gurramok you will always have to pay higher prices for property in the heavier population density areas and most desirable areas this is geographical fact around the world. I mean look at the states the difference between a shoebox appartment on say 5th avenue and a country ranch in Kansas. Big difference in price. Thats just off the top of my head and that is where we are heading the likes of Dublin/Galway/Cork will always be streets ahead of the likes of BallyJamesDuff or Muff in donegal. (great name by the way) muuuufff haha

Yes, Dublin/Galway/Cork ain't New York. Think about it.

fliball123

I am thinking about it and Dublin is to BallyJamesDuff as New York is to Kansas its all relative and by the way a shoebox in newyork 5th avenue would be considerable more than Dublin.

I am not saying its right or wrong but the Irish have become more snobby in the last 10/15 year and normal decent folk such as sparks, builders have seen more money in that time and have become snobbish in there attitude and this attitude will push them for a plush appartment/house in foxrock or the likes sure a load of auctions were pulled there the other day as the offers coming in where on average 10/15% over what the seller was asking and a lot of people decided to pull their properties as they know they will get more...I will see if I can find the link before you ask

Once again I am not saying its right or wrong

Remember Ireland has been seen as the IT capital of Europe for the last 10/15 years or so and rightly or wronly the celtic tiger has fed the egos of once hard working decent folk to keep up with the Jones (Human Nature)

gurramok

fliball123 wrote: »

I am thinking about it and Dublin is to BallyJamesDuff as New York is to Kansas its all relative and by the way a shoebox in newyork 5th avenue would be considerable more than Dublin.

And what has Dublin to offer over a premium city like NY to command 500k for an apt across from me in the Docklands? http://www.daft.ie/1495955

fliball wrote:

I am not saying its right or wrong but the Irish have become more snobby in the last 10/15 year and normal decent folk such as sparks, builders have seen more money in that time and have become snobbish in there attitude and this attitude will push them for a plush appartment/house in foxrock or the likes sure a load of auctions were pulled there the other day as the offers coming in where on average 10/15% over what the seller was asking and a lot of people decided to pull their properties as they know they will get more...I will see if I can find the link before you ask

Thanks

fliball wrote:

Remember Ireland has been seen as the IT capital of Europe for the last 10/15 years or so and rightly or wronly the celtic tiger has fed the egos of once hard working decent folk to keep up with the Jones (Human Nature)

IT capital, you're joking right? We have one of the slowest speeds for broadband in the EU. Knowledge economy and all that lark.:rolleyes:

fliball123

gurramok wrote: »

And what has Dublin to offer over a premium city like NY to command 500k for an apt across from me in the Docklands? http://www.daft.ie/1495955



Thanks



IT capital, you're joking right? We have one of the slowest speeds for broadband in the EU. Knowledge economy and all that lark.:rolleyes:

Come on Gurramok so Ireland has not been a nation to benefit from the dotcom and then the tech boom. The big companies all have or had bases here Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Dell, Compaq, Gateway, EA have just opened up there somewhere aswell.

I mean your fooling yourself if you think we were not seen like that. Dont get me wrong a lot of them such as gateway have gone by the wayside.

As for what does Dublin do in compared to New York. Its comparisan can be compared as per population I believe Dublin holds at 1/4 of the population in Ireland.

Never said Dublin could hold a torch to New york but just stating that its the small fish in a big pond scenario. People down the country see dublin as a mecca of industry hense the phrase come culchieville "get up ta dublin and getta job"

Even if you go throughout the world I have been to us, canada, Oz, China and stayed for at least 3 months and the one place they all seem to know of is Dublin - Now thats just personal experience sure the fact that so many eastern Europeans, Brazilians, Asians, South Americans are/were here in increased numbers since the 90s would seem to suggest that Dublin has an international rep.

Have you got a taxi lately mostly black guys
Have you gone to the hospital mostly philipino nurses
Have you walked down gardener street in the middle of Dublin its like Little China..

So Dublin has an internation reputation you cannot dispute this, but I do aggree that it is inferior to New York in most ways

ntlbell

fliball123 wrote: »

Come on Gurramok so Ireland has not been a nation to benefit from the dotcom and then the tech boom. The big companies all have or had bases here Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Dell, Compaq, Gateway, EA have just opened up there somewhere aswell.

I mean your fooling yourself if you think we were not seen like that. Dont get me wrong a lot of them such as gateway have gone by the wayside.

huh? you think they're here for our fantastic broadband infrastructure?

they're here because of the low cooperate tax rates. and many are getting out.

Intel have moved a lot of jbos out as have Microsoft/Dell etc, if you think they're here for our brains and high tech infrastructure you're on cloud 9

gurramok

fliball123 wrote: »

Come on Gurramok so Ireland has not been a nation to benefit from the dotcom and then the tech boom. The big companies all have or had bases here Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Dell, Compaq, Gateway, EA have just opened up there somewhere aswell.

I mean your fooling yourself if you think we were not seen like that. Dont get me wrong a lot of them such as gateway have gone by the wayside.

As for what does Dublin do in compared to New York. Its comparisan can be compared as per population I believe Dublin holds at 1/4 of the population in Ireland.

Never said Dublin could hold a torch to New york but just stating that its the small fish in a big pond scenario. People down the country see dublin as a mecca of industry hense the phrase come culchieville "get up ta dublin and getta job"

Even if you go throughout the world I have been to us, canada, Oz, China and stayed for at least 3 months and the one place they all seem to know of is Dublin - Now thats just personal experience sure the fact that so many eastern Europeans, Brazilians, Asians, South Americans are/were here in increased numbers since the 90s would seem to suggest that Dublin has an international rep.

Have you got a taxi lately mostly black guys
Have you gone to the hospital mostly philipino nurses
Have you walked down gardener street in the middle of Dublin its like Little China..

So Dublin has an internation reputation you cannot dispute this, but I do aggree that it is inferior to New York in most ways

The DOT boom and tech doom effectively took a back seat at the turn on the millennium.

How do you define IT? Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Dell, Compaq, Gateway, EA mostly have/had manufacturing operations here with a flake of R&D and services thrown in.(eg: EA)

You're now arguing on reputation to support high house prices in Dublin. Did you meet many junkies on your travels?:D

Whats immigration got to do with house prices? Some have left you know:)

News for you. Ireland ain't a mecca of industry. The mecca of building houses we had was created by FF and we what happened there.

Mr. Presentable

gurramok wrote: »

Nope, the question was about averages.



.

To refresh your memory

gurramok wrote: »

What interest rates and have you taken into account of singletons in urban areas?
And above all, what gaff can you get for 205k in a safe urban area?

Now maybe I'm blind, but the word "average" does not appear in your question. Anywhere. It is not even implied.

MuffinsDa

gurramok wrote: »

Yes, Dublin/Galway/Cork ain't New York. Think about it.

Yes, and that's precisely why an apartment in Dublin 4 (most expensive area of Dublin) is a hell of a lot cheaper than a similar sized apartment in Manhattan or South Kensington!!!! You defeated your own point!

gurramok

nipplenuts wrote: »

Now maybe I'm blind, but the word "average" does not appear in your question. Anywhere. It is not even implied.

That was in reply to OMD's assertion using the averages and then you jumped in with ONE house with which about 20 others in the area are alot more expensive.

That's assuming you were following the conversation about averages in the first place before you jumped in.

refresh your memory:

OMD wrote:

The average home is now affordable to the average earner which it wasn't before

MuffinsDa wrote: »

Yes, and that's precisely why an apartment in Dublin 4 (most expensive area of Dublin) is a hell of a lot cheaper than a similar sized apartment in Manhattan or South Kensington!!!! You defeated your own point!

Its actually D2. Now who has egg on their face?

MuffinsDa

gurramok wrote: »

How do you define IT? Intel, Microsoft, IBM, Dell, Compaq, Gateway, EA mostly have/had manufacturing operations here with a flake of R&D and services thrown in.(eg: EA)

You obviously haven't a clue what IT is, and what are IT companies are doing here (as opposed to manufacturing companies). Those involved in manufacturing are gone or going(Dell, Compaq, Gateway), but there are plenty of very large companies that are doing a hell of a lot of R&D, Services and Development in Ireland. I know, I work for one of them. And our R&D is expanding, same as many other software companies. And these are all highly paid and highly skilled positions. To name a few: Oracle, SAP, IBM, Symantec, AOL, Google, Microsoft, SITA.

And here's some examples:

R&D: http://www.idaireland.com/news-media/press-releases/100-new-rd-jobs/

R&D: http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/breaking-news/uk-ireland/aol-creating-50-jobs-at-dublin-site-14833340.html

Services: http://www.siliconrepublic.com/news/article/16289/business/75-new-dublin-jobs

I hope your knowledge of economy is better than that of IT scene in Ireland!!!

MuffinsDa

gurramok wrote: »

Its actually D2. Now who has egg on their face?

D2/D6/D200 doesn't make any difference in my point, pick whatever area you think is the most expensive in Dublin. What I was pointing out remains the same, and clearly and obviously defeats your point about comparing Dublin to NY or London. Picking on area codes won't wipe the egg off yours and throw it on mine, I'm afraid. Grow up, and respond with reason and logic if you are capable of, otherwise say nothing !