Heysel disaster 25th anniversary

3hn2givr7mx1sc

Very bad form from Dalglish there, didn't shoulder any of the blame on the Liverpool hooligans.

therecklessone

Very crass from Dalglish there, and I'm sure he could have chosen his words much more carefully to draw attention to the background events leading up to the tragedy without causing offence.

steelcityblues

Always felt that Liverpool FC did not really own up to it's responsibility for the incident for years either!

Anyway - RIP to the 39 Juve fans on this sad anniversary!

Jazzy

steelcityblues wrote: »

Always felt that Liverpool FC did not really own up to it's responsibility for the incident for years either!

em, how?

Peyton Manning

steelcityblues wrote: »

Always felt that Liverpool FC did not really own up to it's responsibility for the incident for years either!

Anyway - RIP to the 39 Juve fans on this sad anniversary!

Liverpool FC don't have to own up to anything though. People should learn to seperate the actions of a bunch of hooligan scumbags from the representation of their club. Liverpool FC didn't kill anybody that night, they simply played a game of football. A group of mindless fúcking idiots who happened to have tickets to the game are the only ones who are responsible here.

steelcityblues

Jazzy wrote: »

em, how?

More that at the time of the incident, people like Dalglish and a few others, along with a xenophobic media, seemed to put more blame on the Belgian authorities, than the scumbags who left carnage in Brussels.

The club have shown more humility and responsibility over this though in recent years. Stupid that other English clubs were to be banned from European competitions for the next five years, as a result.

therecklessone

steelcityblues wrote: »

The club have shown more humility and responsibility over this though in recent years. Stupid that other English clubs were to be banned from European competitions for the next five years, as a result.

Are we forgetting that right up until the collapse of that wall the events in Heysel were depressingly similar to those witnessed across England and Europe throughout the 70s and 80s when English teams took to the pitch?

steelcityblues

therecklessone wrote: »

Are we forgetting that right up until the collapse of that wall the events in Heysel were depressingly similar to those witnessed across England and Europe throughout the 70s and 80s when English teams took to the pitch?

True, but that was the F.A.'s problem/issue for doing SFA more than UEFA!

citytillidie

It was an FA ban on all English teams playing in Europe.

If it was a Uefa ban Ireland would not have had the chant who put the ball in the English net or had to play all group games in Italy 1990 in an Island as England would also have been banned from playing International football.

Jazzy

as with all cases of its ilk, the responsibility lays in more then one set of people. as much as people would like to pigeonhole this on scumbags, the scumbags were also allowed to do what they did.

Collie D

Jazzy wrote: »

as with all cases of its ilk, the responsibility lays in more then one set of people. as much as people would like to pigeonhole this on scumbags, the scumbags were also allowed to do what they did.

The stadium was a sh*thole, the stewarding was perhaps appalling but the main share of the blame belongs with those fans. The ones involved know who they are and what they did and hopefully have had to live with that guilt every day for the past 25 years. Maybe it made them better people, realised the error of their ways, gave up going to football to start rucks...maybe not. But regardless of the conditions on the night those men are the ones with blood on their hands.

K-9

steelcityblues wrote: »

True, but that was the F.A.'s problem/issue for doing SFA more than UEFA!

I think his point was, this could have happened in England. Neglected stadia caused problems in England too, Bradford the best example, Hillsborough in some ways.

I think that was Dalglish's point and the other articles too. The rioting and hooliganism should never have happened, Heysel should never have been picked for different reasons like policing, ticketing, dilapidation etc. and the accumulation of all these things resulted in the deaths.

steelcityblues

Dalglish, in the newspaper comments, was only stopping short of blaming the Belgian Royals, or whoever he could before the scumbags in Brussels on that night. Sometimes, ex-players bias, or lack of scope, extends to areas where of course it shouldn't belong in the first place.

Dub13

citytillidie wrote: »

It was an FA ban on all English teams playing in Europe.

If it was a Uefa ban Ireland would not have had the chant who put the ball in the English net or had to play all group games in Italy 1990 in an Island as England would also have been banned from playing International football.

It was initially a FA ban following pressure from Thatcher,not long latter Uefa made it official and said it would be for "an indeterminate period of time".

The ban never effected the national team.

pickarooney

I remember laughing and saying to my Dad "There's a horse on the pitch Daddy!"
It stopped being funny very quickly.

Then Ian Rush left and I lost all interest in Liverpool F.C.

Mrmoe

I couldn't even kick a football when the Heysel disaster happened but anytime I hear or see it I get a horrible sinking feeling in my stomach. This is the way it should be, we should never forget. There were many reasons behind the disaster with the main responsibility laying at the feet of those supporters that day. It is probably the only event that makes me ashamed to be a Liverpool supporter.:mad:

Le King

Jazzy wrote: »

as with all cases of its ilk, the responsibility lays in more then one set of people. as much as people would like to pigeonhole this on scumbags, the scumbags were also allowed to do what they did.

Funny you try to attach an award to my post earlier.

Hypocrisy, no?

Despite it being hard to read with all that unformatted text, it also massively under justifies the whole situation.

The main responsibility lies with the "scumbags".

No point in arguing that.

But I'm sure your, to use a word used by yourself, "durp"-esque posting will justify this.

Reganio 2

Mrmoe wrote: »

It is probably the only event that makes me ashamed to be a Liverpool supporter.:mad:

But then seeing how the supporters reacted to the disaster at Hillsbrough makes me unbelievably proud to be a Liverpool supporter. Seeing the people using the ad boards to carry the injured and the dead out is just amazing. I remember someone saying that if it wasn't for the majority of the fans helping outa lot more people would have died, they were the emergancy services that day.

Mr. Presentable

Mrmoe wrote: »

I couldn't even kick a football when the Heysel disaster happened but anytime I hear or see it I get a horrible sinking feeling in my stomach. This is the way it should be, we should never forget. There were many reasons behind the disaster with the main responsibility laying at the feet of those supporters that day. It is probably the only event that makes me ashamed to be a Liverpool supporter.:mad:

To be fair, it was coming. Had been for years. A major incident involving the supporters of one or another English club was bound to happen. That Liverpool FC were the club was bad timing/luck. It didn't happen because they were Liverpool fans.

For me, as a fan (disgruntled!) of Italian football, the biggest disappointment of all is how so many of the fans of Juventus, Roma, Palermo etc want to ape the behaviour of the English fans in the 1980's. Fortunately they have not been exporting it, as yet.

Mr. Presentable

Reganio 2 wrote: »

But then seeing how the supporters reacted to the disaster at Hillsbrough makes me unbelievably proud to be a Liverpool supporter. Seeing the people using the ad boards to carry the injured and the dead out is just amazing. I remember someone saying that if it wasn't for the majority of the fans helping outa lot more people would have died, they were the emergancy services that day.

Further to my previous post, you have nothing to be proud of. That fans helped rescue others had nothing to do with them being Liverpool fans, and everything to do with them being football people. Had they been Helsingborg fans they would have done the same.

Mr. Presentable

I am disappointed to see the Man U/Liverpool sniping of some posters. Truth is, had Man U been successful in that period it could just as likely have been their fans who were involved. Nobodies fans were above hooligan acts - observe the national team's fans record even into the late 1990s.

cournioni

The thing that I found shocking was the Merseyside derby when I saw pictures of this banner in the Kop getting a dig in at Everton fans:

Seems that some sections of the Liverpool support were proud of the fact that murdering 39 people stopped Everton from playing in the European Cup in 1986.

RIP 39.

Kess73

cournioni wrote: »

The thing that I found shocking was the Merseyside derby when I saw pictures of this banner in the Kop getting a dig in at Everton fans:

Seems that some sections of the Liverpool support were proud of the fact that murdering 39 people stopped Everton from playing in the European Cup in 1986.

RIP 39.

Not having that at all. Why don't you show the banner that the Everton fans had been putting from the 1985/86 season and the similar ones that have been popping up since then?

Some of the Everton support had a banner with an image of the European cup and EVERTON 1986 on it, that used to be carried by a number of Everton fans outside Anfield when Liverpool had home games, and also at the Derby games.

Then after the 1986 final was over, some Liverpool supporter made the Steaua banner, and it was brought out whenever the Everton one surfaced. It started to resurface again in recent years with Lioverpool back in the CL, just as an Everton banner relating to that era has also resurfaced.

It is a bit classless by both sets of fans involved, but it was not done as some badge of pride over the tragedy stopping a fine Everton getting into the European cup. Just as I think the Everton banner was born from the frustration of not seeing their team, which would have had a good chance of winning imho, in the EC and was not a deliberate insult to the 39 dead from those Everton fans.

The media recently tried to make out that the Liverpool banner was a new thing, but like yourself, had either not known that the banner goes back 24 years, or just did not bother to mention the story behind it.

You should also point out that the Steaua banner has been the cause of many Liverpool fans rounding on the guys who bring it to the ground, and also the cause of the stewards chucking them out more than once after complaints from other Liverpool fans.

cournioni

Kess73 wrote: »

Not having that at all. Why don't you show the banner that the Everton fans had been putting from the 1985/86 season and the similar ones that have been popping up since then?

Some of the Everton support had a banner with an image of the European cup and EVERTON 1986 on it, that used to be carried by a number of Everton fans outside Anfield when Liverpool had home games, and also at the Derby games.

Then after the 1986 final was over, some Liverpool supporter made the Steaua banner, and it was brought out whenever the Everton one surfaced. It started to resurface again in recent years with Lioverpool back in the CL, just as an Everton banner relating to that era has also resurfaced.

It is a bit classless by both sets of fans involved, but it was not done as some badge of pride over the tragedy stopping a fine Everton getting into the European cup. Just as I think the Everton banner was born from the frustration of not seeing their team, which would have had a good chance of winning imho, in the EC and was not a deliberate insult to the 39 dead from those Everton fans.

The media recently tried to make out that the Liverpool banner was a new thing, but like yourself, had either not known that the banner goes back 24 years, or just did not bother to mention the story behind it.

You should also point out that the Steaua banner has been the cause of many Liverpool fans rounding on the guys who bring it to the ground, and also the cause of the stewards chucking them out more than once after complaints from other Liverpool fans.

The Everton fans weren't the ones at Heysel that night, so they're not the ones in question. The banner is very tastless, regardless of what banner Everton had. The fact that its been around for 24 years is even more shocking and still shows no regard for the Juventus fans that were murdered that night.

I think the Juventus match at Anfield in the CL quarter final in 2005 said alot about the situation. Where the Kop held up cards to form "Amicizia" (Italian for friendship), the Juventus fans turned their backs and gave it the middle finger and quite rightly so. It was a very tastless jesture, what should have been held up was "Scusa" (Italian for sorry). Of course that would never happen with LFC would it?

Kess73

cournioni wrote: »

The Everton fans weren't the ones at Heysel that night, so they're not the ones in question.

I just explained the history of that banner to you. I hardly absolved those responsible on the night of what they did, nor would I ever make any excuses for them.

Funny how the banner in question has been a non issue for most non LFC fans for the bulk of the last 24 years though, but only started to become a moral issue for non LFC fans since the Strettyender blog and those involved with that blog started a campaign about it in Febuary 2010.

The moral higher ground seems to be leapt upon by an awful lot of people who are most likely not from Liverpool or Turin, and with no connections at all to either city.

The fans from the Black and White quarter of Turin will always have the only real say on this subject. They paid a high price for that say, and can express their anger/loss/hatred/sadness however they like and without any rebuke.

The Red half of Liverpool's part is to acknowledge and take whatever is said to them by those from Turin. There is no arguement that excuses what happened on that night, or that makes the terrible losses plausible. No amount of excuses about the ground not being right, the Belgian authorities not being up to scratch or anything else can be offered as an excuse to those who lost loved ones at a game of football.

The blame lies solely upon the animals who caused death and hurt and the shame remains with those who know that hurt will always be linked with our colours, our club's name and our city's name.

Anyone else who has no affiliation to either city, who has no link to any of the families who lost a member in the 39, who are quick to run in with comments that reek of faux moralities, anyone who is quick to try and use the tragedy for a cheap disguised dig, should take the time to think about why they are throwing comments in, and would be better served with a moment of reflection for those who lost loved ones that night rather than point scoring on an internet forum.

mike65

nipplenuts wrote: »

Yup, 25 years ago today 39 Juventus supporters died when a wall collapsed as they tried to escape rampaging opposition fans.

It wasn't the wall that killed them, the wall collapse was actually a good thing as it relieved pressure. The dead were asphyxiated.

Bandying the word murder about is foolish, no-one went to that game to kill anyone. It was manslaughter.

Reganio 2

nipplenuts wrote:

Further to my previous post, you have nothing to be proud of. That fans helped rescue others had nothing to do with them being Liverpool fans, and everything to do with them being football people. Had they been Helsingborg fans they would have done the same.

So we are supposed to be ashamed of our club when they do something wrong but not proud of them when they do something good? It dosn't work both ways.

I see you bascally said its not Liverpool fans for both which is fair enough but if people think one act is despicable (Which it is before people leap from that high horse) then the helping each other is commendable.

Kess73

cournioni wrote: »

The Everton fans weren't the ones at Heysel that night, so they're not the ones in question. The banner is very tastless, regardless of what banner Everton had. The fact that its been around for 24 years is even more shocking and still shows no regard for the Juventus fans that were murdered that night.

I think the Juventus match at Anfield in the CL quarter final in 2005 said alot about the situation. Where the Kop held up cards to form "Amicizia" (Italian for friendship), the Juventus fans turned their backs and gave it the middle finger and quite rightly so. It was a very tastless jesture, what should have been held up was "Scusa" (Italian for sorry). Of course that would never happen with LFC would it?

Seeing as you did an edit to your post to make it longer than the one sentence it originally was, I will reply to it again.


The Juve fans that night were entitled to respond to the cards in any way the wanted. Yes many turned their backs and gave it the finger, and just as many responded by applauding and singing. The families of the 39 were consulted over the card idea, and they were involved in what it was to say.

You seem very quick to get your digs in on this subject. Are you from either Liverpool or Turin? I am from Liverpool, grew up there, went to school there etc. So I can speak from experience on how the memory of the tragedy makes someone from Liverpool feel.

I have a feeling that if you were to be honest in answering where you are from, then you would turn out to be an Irishman who probably supports an English team that is not Liverpool, cannot stand Liverpool FC and have no problem in using the tragedy as a way to have a go.

Nobody on here has tried to say that those responsible that night should be absolved of any blame, nobody on here has said that their punishment was enough, nobody on here has said that the banners etc were anything other than classless.

cournioni

Kess73 wrote: »

Seeing as you did an edit to your post to make it longer than the one sentence it originally was, I will reply to it again.

The Juve fans that night were entitled to respond to the cards in any way the wanted. Yes many turned their backs and gave it the finger, and just as many responded by applauding and singing. The families of the 39 were consulted over the card idea, and they were involved in what it was to say.

You seem very quick to get your digs in on this subject. Are you from either Liverpool or Turin? I am from Liverpool, grew up there, went to school there etc. So I can speak from experience on how the memory of the tragedy makes someone from Liverpool feel.

I have a feeling that if you were to be honest in answering where you are from, then you would turn out to be an Irishman who probably supports an English team that is not Liverpool, cannot stand Liverpool FC and have no problem in using the tragedy as a way to have a go.

Nobody on here has tried to say that those responsible that night should be absolved of any blame, nobody on here has said that their punishment was enough, nobody on here has said that the banners etc were anything other than classless.

Yes I am very quick to get in my digs on this subject, so quick in fact that I waited until the fifth page of this thread to get in my reply. I am neither from Liverpool or Turin, I am from Cavan and that doesn't make me any less educated on the subject. Unfortunately the only way to be fully educated on this is if you were in Heysel and involved in the trouble.I am not a Liverpool fan but I have many friends that are Liverpool fans, my missus and her family are even Liverpool fans.

Most of them blame the Liverpool fans for the Heysel disaster, but there is always some that start blaming the stadium, the Juventus fans, Roma fans, even Chelsea fans for the deaths. These are the people I am getting at, and also the fact that Liverpool FC have not apologised for the behaviour of their fans that caused the deaths. Most of their players from that era have treated it as a freak accident when as a matter of fact, the disaster was caused by some Liverpool scumbags on the night. Am I wrong for voicing my opinion on these people?

Kess73

cournioni wrote: »

Yes I am very quick to get in my digs on this subject, so quick in fact that I waited until the fifth page of this thread to get in my reply. I am neither from Liverpool or Turin, I am from Cavan and that doesn't make me any less educated on the subject. Unfortunately the only way to be fully educated on this is if you were in Heysel and involved in the trouble.I am not a Liverpool fan but I have many friends that are Liverpool fans, my missus and her family are even Liverpool fans.

Most of them blame the Liverpool fans for the Heysel disaster, but there is always some that start blaming the stadium, the Juventus fans, Roma fans, even Chelsea fans for the deaths. These are the people I am getting at, and also the fact that Liverpool FC have not apologised for the behaviour of their fans that caused the deaths. Most of their players from that era have treated it as a freak accident when as a matter of fact, the disaster was caused by some Liverpool scumbags on the night. Am I wrong for voicing my opinion on these people?

Liverpool FC have made many public statements about how sorry the club was that 39 Juve fans were killed when that section of the Liverpool support charged them.

Peter Robinson, the LFC Chief Executive at that time, came out a number of times after the tragedy to offer condolences to the Italian familie and to say how sorry he was for what happened to their loved ones.

Bob Paisley came out and spoke against those that caused the deaths.

There is a memorial plaque at Anfield in memory of the 39 who lost their lives that night.

There were support groups set up almost immediately after the tragedy by people in Liverpool, some linked to the club, that worked with the Italian support groups.


So don't try to trot out the line that nobody has ever said sorry for what happened.


You say that there is a section that you are getting at. Are they in this thread? Have Liverpool fans in this thread being trying to say that anyone other than the people who charged the Juve fans were responsible for the deaths?

Nobody on this thread has tried to pass the buck on who is to blame on the night. So I don't see who you are direecting those comments to in this thread.

As for you being as educated or as in touch with the event as someone from Liverpool or Turin? Of course you are not.

If there was some tragedy in Cavan and you knew people who were at it, be they family members or relatives or friends of the family, or just people you knew from the area, then I could not come along and say I am as educated on the subject as anyone from Cavan simply because I read up on it. I could probably repeat the printed stories about the incident but I would know nothing about the emotion, the local feeling, the shame, and the confusion that came with it.

I was not in Brussels that night. I was sat at home in Netherton watching the game on tv. I do know people who were there though. I have heard their stories about the night, about the days before the night, and about the next day. I have seen Liverpool on the night it happened, the next day and so on. I have seen the changes in people over what they saw that night. Men who were always happy go lucky types now looking aged and fragile.

Then four years later I got to watch another senseless loss of life, only this time as I sat in Netherton watching on tv what was unfolding, I had my father, uncle and other people I knew in that ground.

Ten days after that standing at the side of a grave, watching my uncle's coffin going down, a better understanding of the loss that Italian families felt four years earlier was hammered home to me. It taught me to respect the right of those Italian families to be angry, and to verbally defend their right to voice their pain against anyone who thought otherwise.

I will never fully understand the grief and anger those families felt, no doubt most still do, but I have a better understanding than most people who simply watched those events on a tv in another country on what it feels like.

So if you want to tell me that you know as much about it as anyone from Liverpool and Turin, other than those who were actually at the ground that night, be my guest. But I hope that for the duration of your life you never truly get the chance to find out what it feels like, or to even, like I did, gain an inkling of understanding of what they went through.

I'm done with this thread after this post. I have posted far more than I wanted to, and all it does is bring the wrong memories to the fore, along with the chance of me getting ratty with people. The thread should be in honour of the 39 who lost their lives.